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Power The Military Politics

Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline 868

Posted by timothy
from the sometimes-a-battery-is-what-you-need dept.
necro81 (917438) writes "Gaza's only power plant (see this profile at IEEE Spectrum — duct tape and bailing wire not included) has been knocked offline following an Israeli strike. Reports vary, but it appears that Israeli tank shells caused a fuel bunker at the plant to explode. Gaza, already short on electricity despite imports from Israel and Egpyt, now faces widening blackouts."
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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

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  • Radicalization (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mrspoonsi (2955715) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:33AM (#47556657)
    Israel is sure doing a good job in that area creating more enemies, if that is their intention, the plan is working.
  • by i kan reed (749298) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:33AM (#47556659) Homepage Journal

    Depending on just how freshwater is distributed in Gaza, and the infrastructure demands it has, this could mean a lot more heat exhaustion, and water-borne infection related deaths.

    Even a smallish percentage of people being affected is a huge number of people dying in a high temperature densely packed urban environment.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by i kan reed (749298) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:37AM (#47556691) Homepage Journal

    Not that I approve of Israel's bombing of their own citizens(who happen to not have the right to free travel, economic independence, the vote, or other important aspects we might consider important to a self-declared modern liberal democracy).

    But it would be silly to think that only Israel is making enemies pointlessly, as far as middle east politics is concerned.

  • by Joe Gillian (3683399) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:40AM (#47556707)

    It will also likely cause the bombs to kill more people. A lack of power will cause people to leave their homes and try to find somewhere that has clean water or air conditioning, which means a higher density of people packed into a smaller area. This means higher death counts when Israeli missiles inevitably hit another civilian area, as they've been doing since the start of this war.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:41AM (#47556717)

    Posting AC because of all you politically-correct pussies who think any criticism of Zionists, no matter how radical they are or what they do, is "anti-semitic."

    But it appears that the only lesson that SOME Jews learned from Hitler was "Hey, *we* should do that when *we're* in charge!" Ghettos, ethnic oppression, etc. Looks like they learned from the best. I just hope it doesn't come down to the ovens.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:41AM (#47556721)

    Yea, because the random launching of rockets by Hamas over the years doesn't? It's a 2-way street ya know.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:42AM (#47556725)

    Do you propose that all concentration camps should be nuked? Gaza is a concentration camp. Until Israel gives all it's citizens equal voting rights, it is nothing more than one of earths most ugly prisons*.

    * What does that make the Israelis?

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:3, Insightful)

    by acoustix (123925) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:42AM (#47556733) Homepage

    Hamas started it and reuses to agree to any proposed cease fire. Israel isn't the group calling for the extermination, Hamas is. Israel has also offered legitimacy to the Palestinian government in exchange for a cease fire and removing the language in the charter to kill all jews.

    But yeah, go ahead and blame Israel.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:3, Insightful)

    by JackieBrown (987087) <dbroome@gmail.com> on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:45AM (#47556751)

    So what do you think should be Israel's response to the constant bombing of their country?

    The fact that Israel hasn't just wiped the country off the map is perplexing to me. It is usually what happens when a weak country continues to poke at a stronger one.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:47AM (#47556765)

    Israel targeted the school deliberately, says it was warned after the fact *(It wasn't.) Then blamed Hamas. Now we know the truth, days later.

    The question is will the US continue to veto UN action to hold this rogue terrorist state to task?

  • by EzInKy (115248) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:49AM (#47556785)

    ...from your territitory and chances are good that you won't get missles fired back at you. Sign a document to that effect and you will most likely have peace.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:49AM (#47556787)

    Their missiles are pretty accurate. Artillery shells and mortars are the problem. In any case It is pretty stupid to seek shelter in a building that us used by the muslim jihad army.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by fredrated (639554) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:50AM (#47556797) Journal

    Thank God they are getting the inmates of the concentration camp under control.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by fredrated (639554) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:51AM (#47556817) Journal

    You mean slaughter them relentlessly like the jews were slaughtered? What an idea!

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mrspoonsi (2955715) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:52AM (#47556821)
    It is more to do with proportional response. Those rockets they have killed what 2 or 3? there are over 1000 Palestinians dead. You also have to consider that the Palestinian people as a whole are not Hamas, in the same way the Northern Ireland population were not the IRA. The UK did not resort to carpet shelling Northern Ireland to remove the IRA, because it would never have worked, the IRA would only get stronger. Ireland had segregation, it did not work, only by integrating the people can you bring them around and ultimately onto the same side. For every innocent non-terrorist killed, that will recruit many terrorists.
  • Re:Radicalization (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:53AM (#47556835)

    If a schoolyard bully steals your lunch money, an appropriate response is not to light his house on fire, bar the windows and doors so no one can escape. In my country, they call that murder.

    But convince yourself of anything that makes you sleep at night.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:54AM (#47556845)

    > So what do you think should be Israel's response to the constant bombing of their country?

    Whatever it is, killing women and children isn't it.

    No, I don't approve of what Hamas is doing (or has been doing all the time), but just count the casualties. Israel's response just isn't it. They're just providing Hamas with more people ready to go all-out.

    Evil is definitely on both sides, but the moral weight on Israel looks way greater, as they're operating from the position of strength.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @08:59AM (#47556893)

    "Not that I approve of Israel's bombing of their own citizens" - Israel never bombed their own citizens, you probably mean Hamas. In fact, Israel developed high-end technology to protect its citizens from rockets.

    "who happen to not have the right to free travel, economic independence, the vote, or other important aspects we might consider important to a self-declared modern liberal democracy" - Israeli citizens has all the rights that Americans have. That includes everything on your list, and it also applies to all citizens, regardless of their religion or political affiliation.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:01AM (#47556921)

    They have voting rights and they voted for Hamas. Now was that a smart vote?

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by i kan reed (749298) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:01AM (#47556927) Homepage Journal

    Don't want to call people living in their territorial boundaries their whole lives "their own citizens"? Fine.

    Their enslaved subjects then.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by jameslore (219771) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:02AM (#47556937) Homepage

    If they stopped building settlements; stopped dissecting the West Bank for the settler's safety and actually acted like they were interested in a two state solution, that'd be pretty good.

    Few sane people are criticising Israel's right and necessity to defend its citizens (although the way they're going about it is certainly fair game) - where it appears most critics (including myself) have a problem is in that subset of Israelis who oppose peace and (especially through the settlements) do everything possible to obstruct it - and have been controlling the government in recent years. Hamas's behaviour is indefensible. But unprovoked it is not, and for the Israeli government to play the innocent in this is just taking the piss.

    TL;DR As history proves, violence without a political dimension only begets more violence.

  • by NoImNotNineVolt (832851) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:07AM (#47556991) Homepage
    I can see how the people of Gaza could think so.

    They see Israel as an outside force that periodically comes through town to kill everyone. They see Hamas as the only party willing and able to answer Israel's violence with some Palestinian violence. Whether or not that view of the situation accurately corresponds to reality is irrelevant; the fact of the matter is, the people of Gaza feel that in the current climate, Hamas represents their interests better than any of the other options.

    Until the Israeli administration can find a way to change that perception (hint: continuation of the violence, marginalization, and blockage is unlikely to accomplish that goal), I expect continued support of Hamas and a continuation of desperate rocket attacks on Israel.
  • Re:Radicalization (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:08AM (#47557015)

    If a schoolyard bully steals your lunch money, an appropriate response is not to light his house on fire, bar the windows and doors so no one can escape. In my country, they call that murder.

    But convince yourself of anything that makes you sleep at night.

    I will convince myself.

    And while I do, you should think twice before stealing my lunch money.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ZX-3 (745525) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:10AM (#47557047)

    A comparison with the IRA has its limitations: The IRA mission statement was not the destruction of the entire UK.
    The last time the existence of the UK was threatened, it actually did attempt to continuously bomb its enemies.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:11AM (#47557049)

    They're not "Israeli citizens" but Israel doesn't want them to be "Palestine" citizens either. that is the entire problem/conflict in it's simplicity at this point.

    They're effectively stateless and effectively without human rights in eyes of the Israeli state - and Israel jews have absolutely zero intent to integrate them into the Israeli state but they don't want them to live where they live either(and many who get voices in the Israeli media have the opinion that they shouldn't live at all, anywhere! and they're playing the "we're the good guys come on why you mad?").

    basically, it has boiled down to the Israelis referring to them as scum and calling for GENOCIDE. Seriously, the fucks tout "killing them and their mothers and sons" in their media and somehow think that's OK because handful of Israelis has died in the conflict - which includes taking the land of the palestines by force and killing them in the thousands.

    as a consequence, I have decided to just fuck everything Israeli, never travel there, never give them intentionally money and so forth and if a politician would talk about putting an embargo on them I would vote for him.

    I mean Israel is turning it to a point where it would be logical(for the defenders) and historically defendable to use battle gases against the Israeli population centres - because they are faced with genocide of their people.

    furthermore it's despicable that the western nations aren't prosecuting their citizens who go and serve in a war for another nation in this case.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Jahta (1141213) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:15AM (#47557091)

    Did they now?

    Perhaps you should read other propaganda than you normal intake and see what other parts of the world is thinking.

    Right now Israel is facing a lot of problems, it seems like they very well knew that Hamas in fact did *not* sanction the kidnappings; also Israel seems to have left out important informations regarding the kidnapping in order to step up the conflict with Hamas.

    Quite so. And furthermore, rather than doing the normal criminal investigation thing (collect evidence, arrest likely suspects, bring them to trial, etc), Israel decided that they "just knew" who did it and sent the Israeli Airforce in to flatten their neighbourhood. Israel was very quick to jump on the bandwagon of George W. Bush's "war on terror"; label all your enemies as terrorists and use that to justify whatever you do to them.

    To put that in some context, how would the international community have reacted if the British government (during the Irish "troubles") had sent the RAF to bomb neighbourhoods in Belfast or Derry because "we think there are some terrorists there"? It wasn't acceptable then and it's not acceptable now.

  • by Danathar (267989) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:16AM (#47557113) Journal

    One person, one vote, one time

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:18AM (#47557125)

    What do you mean, "proportional response"? The kids in Gaza keep on lobbing rockets until Israel says "enough is enough". And then the kids go "whaaaaa Israel is meeeeaaaaan to uuuuus". And hey, it's working, for lots of people are buying the marketeering. Because nobody could kill themselves just for a bit of good press, now could they? Just like nobody would willingly blow themselves up to make a political statement. Oh wait....

    If you actually go look at what they do, you might note that Israel sends both phoned warning and a "knock on the roof" before a strike (does hamas phone ahead where they're going to strike? well?) only to find the roof full of civilians right after the warning. In contrast, the rockets hamas sends get picked up and word gets sent out to the target so that the Israelis can find shelter, and they do.

    So I really do think that comparing casualty numbers here, when they're competently kept low by Israel and intentionally driven up by hamas, and yes they're deliberately trying to get their own killed for the press value, is a little disingenious. Unless you don't mind parrotting Hamas propaganda. Because that is what it is: Propaganda, very very bloodily so.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Xest (935314) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:18AM (#47557133)

    The whole reason Hamas runs Gaza is because Palestinians elected them, and subsequent infighting resulted in the largely Hamas loyal Gazans ousting Fatah and pushing them to the West Bank, or just outright killing them.

    So it's a bit of a cop out to pretend that civilians in Gaza can't be blamed for Hamas - they can, they voted for them, and they supported the ousting of the far more moderate and reasonable Fatah, those who supported Fatah were killed or fled to the West Bank.

    So Palestinians in Gaza share an awful lot of the blame for Hamas is actions - they actively create and support the environment in which Hamas can do what it keeps doing.

    Which isn't to say I support Israel either, their provocations such as arbitrary raids and continued provocative settlement building and land seizure in the West Bank where Palestinians are more moderate and are behaving is just asking to cause trouble too, but let's not pretend that Gazans are largely innocent, sorry to Godwin the argument, but they're ultimately no more innocent than the Germans in the 30s who voted for and support the National Socialists. If you vote for extremists you have to take responsibility for and accept the repercussions of doing so.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dabadab (126782) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:21AM (#47557159)

    So what do you think should Palestine's response to the constant checkpoints, blockading of their ports, airport and border crossings, as well as the occupation and continued confiscation of their land by Israel should be?

    I ask you the same and if you would come to the conclusion that randomly firing rockets on Isreal and demanding the death of all Jews is the rational reaction that has a very good chance of bringing prosperity and happiness to the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip, I am very much interested in your reasoning.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:26AM (#47557211)

    Your perception of proportional is just an opinion, an opinion based on an oversimplification of events.

    Hamas calls for Israels destruction. If given their way, they would commit genocide on every Israeli out there. They get rockets from Iran and Sudan smuggled through the Sinai in order to attack Israel. The rockets have no chance of ever doing serious damage to Israel, they are a terror weapon. Their purpose is to cause fear and panic in the Israeli population to disrupt the Israeli government. When fired, the Israeli government has no choice but to respond and try to destroy the launchers and shut down the tunnels.

    Specifically, Hamas places the launchers of these rockets in heavily urbanized areas, next to schools, hospitals, and other civilians. Their aim is to have the launcher destroyed but cause significant civilian casualties amongst their own people in order to get people like you around the world inflamed against Israel and turn public opinion away. Specifically they're looking for the global Muslim public opinion, as it makes them viewed as the victim and Israel the heartless monster, which brings more foreign fighters to support them and encourages foreign support from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the various emirates.

    So when you say 2-3 vs 1000 you are completely oversimplifying the situation. Israel has conducted a very limited ground operation with the objective of wiping out smuggling tunnels; they are not indiscriminately shelling Gaza population centers. Their airstrikes are targeting the launchers but invariably there will be misses, and because Hamas uses it's own people as sacrificial lambs and bullet shields, there will inevitably be large civilian casualties.

    But, you know, just gloss over that. Just gloss over the fact that Hamas is now the legitimate ruling party of a sovereign Palestinian nation, and yet violates the Geneva Conventions on a regular basis. They build tunnels into Israel to smuggle in operatives to conduct kidnappings and murders and suicide bombings. They acquire long range artillery, place it in their own population centers to use their own people as shields, adn then use them to target civilian population centers. Their fighters bear no markings, no uniforms or even a badge of sorts to identify them as such. But yeah, because Israel constantly has it's territory violated, it's people killed, and it's cities attacked with rockets that their response is somehow the aggressor here. The only reason the death toll is so lopsided is because of the capabilities and discipline differences between the two, but if this were an even fight you'd be seeing more like 1 million dead Israelis. Intent of the aggressors matters more than capabilities.

  • by Guy From V (1453391) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:27AM (#47557225) Homepage

    Please, someone explain to me how seemingly rational and normal people who seem to have it all together and seemingly hold a good sum of beliefs that can be called measured and critical can demonize Israel for defending themselves...in an amazingly measured manner I must say...in a lion's den of homicidal and genocidal area of the world against a people who will accept nothing but their destruction (it's in their charter or something) when all these other dudes (who happen to be a designated terrorist organization) by NATO..I think, at least by the US)...and.... ...you know what, fuck it. People who complain about Israel and make martyrs out of HAMAS are truly fucking deluded or stupid.

  • Likely an accident (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:29AM (#47557247)

    The irony is that early in this round of fighting rockets fired by Hamas into Israel hit power equipment in Israel used to supply power to Gaza knocking out power to tens of thousands in Gaza - a self inflicted goal on the part of Hamas. the Israelis promptly fixed it restoring power to tens of thousands of people in Gaza. I doubt that most people are aware in the first place that Israelsuppliez much of the power to Gaza or that the Palestinian governing authorities are perpetually behind in their payments for the power but despite that the Israelis don't turn off the power.

    Anyway, I wouldn't read much into this story, it was probably a stray shell that caused the problem. In the this as in all other things, the Israelis are grossly inefficient at harming civilians and civilian infrastructure. If the wanted to harm civilians they would follow the lead of Syria, who has managed to kill more civilians in couple of years than soldiers and civilians that the Israelis have managed to kill in 65 years.

    Incidentally the NYT reported yesterday that the civilian death toll in Ukraine has now reached 800 - if you add the 300+ Ukrainian army deaths plus the unknown number of rebel dead it is greater than the death toll in Gaza. Now comes news of 20 more civilian dead overnight including 5 elderly when an old age home was hit by shells fired by the Ukrainian army.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Xest (935314) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:30AM (#47557257)

    "So what do you think should Palestine's response to the constant checkpoints, blockading of their ports, airport and border crossings, as well as the occupation and continued confiscation of their land by Israel should be? "

    Whatever it should be, launching rocket strikes on civilian population centres is most definitely not it.

    Yes the way Israel treats Gaza is wholly unacceptable, but Gazans should take a leaf from the book of those in the West Bank and focus on peaceful resistance. That gives them the moral high ground.

    It's worth bearing in mind that part the reason Gaza is so heavily blockaded right now is because Hamas was also attacking Egyptian soldiers in support of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood's violent resistance to it's overthrow forcing Egypt to shut Gaza's southern borders. If Gazans were simply sticking to peaceful protest then whatever the Israel do to blockade them the Egyptians would be letting food and supplies in right now. There are two borders in and out of Gaza and Gazans have successfully pissed off those controlling both of them with violence.

    Gazans have made enemies with both their neighbours with persistent violent action and that's led to their isolation. Their isolation has become their excuse to start being even more violent which has now led to destruction of their infrastructure and widespread suffering.

    For all the wrongs of the Israeli and Egyptian regimes it should be blindingly obvious to Gazans by now that the response to oppression by their enemies most definitely isn't aggression if they actually want to improve their lives.

    The only reason Israel can get away with attacking Gaza in the first place is because there's substantial military infrastructure to attack. If Gazans disarmed then Israel would have absolutely no grounds to strike it - just like Israel does not strike Palestinians in the West Bank precisely because Palestinians there have learnt that non-violent opposition is a far better starting point for improving your situation.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:0, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:33AM (#47557275)

    It's funny you should say that. It's the Palestinians who wish to "wipe the Zionists off the planet". It's the Palestinians who always fire the first salvo. It's the Palestinians who refuse to recognize Israels right to exist. It's the Palestinians who get additional accommodations at the end of each battle (additional land and such), and it's the Palestinians who have no interest in a lasting peace. The current containment of the Palestinians hasn't always existed. It came into being piece by piece as the Israelis would do more and more to protect themselves. If it were the intention of the Israelis to rid the world of the Palestinians, they likely would have done it long ago.

    I can't honestly say that Israel has made the best decisions throughout their history, but who has? I've seen Israel do more for the citizens of Palestine than anyone has done for anyone else during battle (throughout all of history). I've seen Israel do things for the benefit of Palestinian citizens that Hamas refuses to do.

    Hamas didn't have to start this battle, and Israel doesn't have to tolerate it.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SJester (1676058) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:34AM (#47557283) Journal
    Poor analogy. Hamas has been trying very, very hard to kill lots and lots of civilians. They're just not very good at it but something will get through eventually. A better analogy is if that schoolyard bully keeps shooting at your house with a 22, but so far you've stayed away from the windows and your dog has kept him out of the yard. It's still not a way to live and you are under no obligation to endure it for more than... I don't know, five years? And then yes, you are completely welcome to go burn the guy's house down. Knock on the door, politely ask his parents to leave, text them, call them, leave a note, and then fire a warning shot. But yes, you can burn his house down and kill him. Because he has been trying extremely hard to kill you.
  • by bhlowe (1803290) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:37AM (#47557305)
    Trying to blame Israel for very real world-wide problem of Muslim-on-neighbor violence is missing the root cause. The Palestinians and most Muslims have been taught from age zero to hate the Jews because of the lunatic ravings of their "prophet." Their Qur'an is filled with war tactics and how to treat the enemy, which is everyone who doesn't believe in their god. And the vast majority of Muslims believe in Sharia law that enforces these barbaric 8th century laws. Browse thereligionofpeace.com for a few insights into the real source of the problem.
  • by NoImNotNineVolt (832851) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:40AM (#47557349) Homepage

    terror tunnels

    Rush, is that you?

    How do you distinguish a "terror tunnel" from the many tunnels used to smuggle food, clothing, potable water, and basic construction materials?

  • by SJester (1676058) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:54AM (#47557495) Journal
    No, a war crime is intentionally targeting a civilian population, such as launching explosives at population centers. It is not a war crime to strike at a launch site or munitions depot. I'm not sure if it's a war crime to establish that site or depot inside a school (twice so far according to the UN, who is not exactly motivated to care), or inside a mosque (once, to my knowledge) or inside a home (dozens of them.) But when you need to stop the war crimes and destroy a launch site, what do you do to limit civilian casualties? Warn them every way possible and then limit fire, which is precisely what Israel has done. What Hamas has done in turn is herd civilians into the line of fire. Should Israel hold their fire? Are they obligated to shelter Hamas' civilians in addition to their own? You're welcome to dispute this. There is ample footage of Israeli warnings followed by civilians crowding the rooftops. Just as there is footage of gunmen turning fleeing civilians back into targeted areas, and two UN reports prior to this war of Hamas using child labor (160 dead) to dig their tunnels. This is not Dresden. Realize that this is what war looks like when when side uses restraint but must proceed, and the other side caulks the gaps with bodies.
  • Re:Radicalization (Score:2, Insightful)

    by smooth wombat (796938) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:55AM (#47557509) Homepage Journal
    If Gazans disarmed then Israel would have absolutely no grounds to strike it

    Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy of the situation. People who are under occupation, subject to the whims of a foreign country are supposed to roll over and play dead and cannot, in any way shape or form, defend themselves or retaliate against their oppressors.

    Funny I didn't see the Jews in Warsaw roll over and play dead, I didn't see the Jews before the creation of Israel roll over and play dead under British rule. Apparently everyone else is supposed to roll over and play dead except Israelis who are the poor, oppressed people and so should be able to defend themselves.

    Again, thank you for the hypocritical stance.
  • Re:Radicalization (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Richard_at_work (517087) <.moc.liamg. .ta. .ecirpdrahcir.> on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @09:59AM (#47557541)

    (Please don't give Iran as an example for anything relating to democracy or human rights)

    Why not? Because Iran doesn't 100% conform to your standards across the board?

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by JesseMcDonald (536341) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:04AM (#47557591) Homepage

    So it's a bit of a cop out to pretend that civilians in Gaza can't be blamed for Hamas - they can, they voted for them, and they supported the ousting of the far more moderate and reasonable Fatah, those who supported Fatah were killed or fled to the West Bank.

    Hamas won the election with only 44.45% of the popular vote, with about 25% of the eligible population abstaining (Palestinian legislative election, 2006 [wikipedia.org]). You're blaming all Palestinians for a choice made by less than half of the voters, which is hardly fair. Those who voted against Hamas aren't to blame for the actions of Hamas just because they were unfortunate enough to be on the losing side of the election. On top of that, the way Hamas has dealt with Fatah supporters means that even some of the 44.45% who voted for Hamas could reasonably be considered to be under duress.

  • That is the point of the blockade isn't it? Getting Gaza to capitulate and figure out it does not hold the upper hand. They are perfectly capable of leveling Gaza and frankly have more than enough reason to do so. They want a neighbor that will not attack them and will work aggressively to stop terrorist from doing the same. The Gazans are free to elect somebody that is willing to and can do just that or hit there current people with enough cluebats to make it happen.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:2, Insightful)

    by HateBreeder (656491) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:08AM (#47557633)

    My "standards" include giving equal rights to all my fellow citizens. That is the essence of democracy. You can't be "a little" democratic, or "more" democratic. It's either you're democratic or you're not.

    Is that too high a standard in your opinion?

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:3, Insightful)

    by NoNonAlphaCharsHere (2201864) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:08AM (#47557637)

    "Not that I approve of Israel's bombing of their own citizens" - Israel never bombed their own citizens, you probably mean Hamas. In fact, Israel developed high-end technology to protect its citizens from rockets.

    "who happen to not have the right to free travel, economic independence, the vote, or other important aspects we might consider important to a self-declared modern liberal democracy" - Israeli citizens has all the rights that Americans have. That includes everything on your list, and it also applies to all citizens, regardless of their religion or political affiliation.

    How is this lying bullshit propaganda "insightful"?

    Saddam never gassed his own citizens, you probably mean Kurdish insurgents.
    Assad never gassed his own citizens, you probably mean rebels.

    "i kan reed"'s "troll" above is exactly correct. Those people have lived within the territorial boundaries their whole lives. How are they NOT "citizens"? Oh, that's right, because the Israeli government SAYS they can't vote or travel freely because they've put a handy (potential) "terrist" label on them, simply because they live in an area that Israel ANNEXED and is OCCUPYING militarily.

    The Israeli government is being run by far-right reactionaries who make Dick Cheney look like a "live-and-let-live" dove, and yet people still blindly support their aggression with Netanyahu's "right-to-exist/security" rhetoric. Instead of blindly "supporting Israel", maybe we should support Israel when they do something worth supporting. - like trying to get along with their own second-class citizens.

    Some gutless asshole will anonymously drop a "I don't agree with you - troll" mod on this, but that won't make it any less true.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ericloewe (2129490) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:08AM (#47557641)

    "No sir, I did not incite genocide. I merely filled the streets with a quote by a dead person who happened to incite genocide."

    If you don't realize just how idiotic that statement is, I recommend you shut up and stop making a fool out of yourself.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:15AM (#47557699)

    Why doesn't Israel just nuke that shithole?

    Dude, because that's NOT how Israel works, nor would it serve their purposes. Dispute what you hear from the press, Israel is actually being very measured in their response and has gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties. Just nuking Gaza would not be consistent with what they are trying to do.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:3, Insightful)

    by HateBreeder (656491) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:15AM (#47557705)

    Please read the Hamas (aka the elected government of the palestinians) charter:

    http://fas.org/irp/world/para/... [fas.org]

    Selected quotes:

    "The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad(17), which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)(18)."

    "Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims."

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by blue9steel (2758287) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:23AM (#47557787)
    If the Israelis are carrying out an extermination campaign they're not doing a very good job. So far they've killed 1065 Palestinians out of 1.816 million in the Gaza Strip, so that's like 0.06%. They've been at it for 22 days, if they kept this pace continually they'd kill just under 1% per year which is lower than the population growth rate. Unless they seriously step up their game the Palestinians are in no danger of extinction.

    Or perhaps we could just acknowledge that Hamas is deliberately siting their weapons near civilians in order to increase the collateral damage of Israeli strikes. Frankly I think the Israelis are being pretty restrained given the scope of the problem. I can guarantee you that if the Mexicans were lobbing rockets into El Paso, Texas we'd be lighting them up like the 4th of July. (No offense to the Mexican people who for the most part would rather move here than lob rockets at us).
  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Wootery (1087023) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:25AM (#47557807)

    44.45% of the popular vote, with about 25% of the eligible population abstaining

    Reminder: 75% turnout is really rather good: it beats the UK turnout rates [parliament.uk][PDF warning]. Also, 44.5% of the voters is a huge number. To imply that anything less than 50% makes it illegitimate is just stupid: thankfully, not all countries are stuck with a two-party system.

    Your other points (possible duress, unfair blame) are sound.

  • by Himmy32 (650060) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:27AM (#47557825)
    If you read this thread, there is rarely support for Hamas. But not that doesn't sanction the killing of children or shelling schools by Israel. The citizens there can't leave basic necessities like concrete to build houses or basic foodstuffs like fruit are blockaded.

    People have the right to complain about abuses on both sides. Either way the only things coming out of the current conflict right now is suffering of innocent children. Both sides should be ashamed.
  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Richard_at_work (517087) <.moc.liamg. .ta. .ecirpdrahcir.> on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:35AM (#47557933)

    Not at all, except no country on this planet gives completely equal rights to all fellow citizens - hows that gay marriage thing coming in the US?

    So in the context of the point raised by disposable60, Iran has both Christians and Jews in office, and your post is nothing more than an attempt to sideline that fact.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Charliemopps (1157495) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @10:36AM (#47557955)

    So, threatening extermination=bad, carrying out extermination=less bad. Got it.

    It's all bad.

    It's like watching your 2 drunken uncles accuse each other of stealing too much whiskey. At first you defend the one because you saw him steel the whiskey, then you realize the others been sneaking it to. Now they're in a full brawl on the living room floor in the middle of Christmas dinner, their kids (your cousins) are terrified and rooting for their respective fathers and you realize in 20 years those kids will be on this very same floor, having the same brawl, and all you can do is stand back and wonder why life is so screwed up.

    Except... with tanks and rockets.

  • by benjfowler (239527) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:03AM (#47558211)

    The (very Muslim) Egypt is also blockading Gaza.

    Explain that away, smartarse.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by chipschap (1444407) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:14AM (#47558317)
    Everyone can say whatever they want, but this much is worth repeating: If Hamas, etc., disarmed, there would be peace. If Israel disarmed, they would be utterly destroyed.
  • Re:Radicalization (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:18AM (#47558335)

    Specifically, Hamas places the launchers of these rockets in heavily urbanized areas, next to schools, hospitals, and other civilians. Their aim is to have the launcher destroyed but cause significant civilian casualties amongst their own people in order to get people like you around the world inflamed against Israel and turn public opinion away. Specifically they're looking for the global Muslim public opinion, as it makes them viewed as the victim and Israel the heartless monster, which brings more foreign fighters to support them and encourages foreign support from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the various emirates.

    [...]Their airstrikes are targeting the launchers but invariably there will be misses, and because Hamas uses it's own people as sacrificial lambs and bullet shields, there will inevitably be large civilian casualties.

    By your own accounting, Israel seems to be completely dancing to Hamas's tune. If this is exactly how Hamas wants it to play out, and their stated goal is the destruction of Israel, how can you condone following their plan to the letter? There has to be a better way.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by TheP4st (1164315) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:21AM (#47558355)
    I certainly agree more that Iran is far, very far from a role model when it come to democracy and human rights. Then again one can question whether a nation where in many places women face increasing obstacles in getting an abortion, executes mentally handicapped, detain people for over a decade charges and engage in extraordinary rendition is that good of a role model either.
  • Re:Radicalization (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:44AM (#47558571)

    Gaza has been occupied since 1967. No boats, other than the Free Gaza floatillas, have landed in Gaza since 1967. Hamas wasn't created until 1987, after twenty years of occupation in Gaza and forty years after half of Gaza's population was expelled from Israel for not being Jewish. Just because Israel's troops have redeployed to the border doesn't mean that Gaza isn't occupied since the current regime is just a continuation of what has been going on continuously for almost 50 years. Israel still possesses 1/3rd of the arable land in Gaza and shoots farmers and children attempting to work the land on sight. Gazans do not have control over their own borders, waters, airspace, taxes, imports, exports, or much of anything else. Furthermore, Gaza and the West Bank are a single political entity and Israel is still occupying them.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ericloewe (2129490) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @12:09PM (#47558783)

    You don't get it, do you?

    Leaving your pitiful strawman response aside, the point is as follows:

    You cannot pretend to not incite genocide if you're quoting a guy who IS inciting genocide.

    While quoting does not always imply that the author agrees, in this particular case it does. By quoting a prophet, who by definition speaks God's word, they are effectively saying "Do what he says!", even if they don't make a clear statement agreeing with him.

    If you quote something and do not argue against it, you are siding with the quoted material.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @12:17PM (#47558877)

    Everyone can say whatever they want, but this much is worth repeating: If Hamas, etc., disarmed, there would be peace. If Israel disarmed, they would be utterly destroyed.

    Note that the "peace" on offer here would involve the Palestinians sitting around in their prison camp watching settlers continue to steal more of their land. While Hamas is no bastion of democracy, it is understandable that the Palestinians might be a wee bit unhappy about this state of affairs.

  • by NoImNotNineVolt (832851) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @01:05PM (#47559269) Homepage

    And yet somehow they cannot make the connection that the rockets that Hamas shoots into Israel by the hundreds brings that Israeli destruction to them.

    Indeed, this is amusing. As amusing as the fact that Israel cannot make the connection that the destruction Israel brings to Gaza (along with the blockade, along with the refusal to recognize sovereignty, etc) is the reason (are the reasons?) Hamas shoots rockets into Israel.

    I find it odd that Anti-Israel propagandists seem to expect that being under constant fire should not bring any reprisal.

    I find it odd that Anti-Arab propagandists seem to expect that continued flaunting of international law and marginalization of a powerless people should not bring any reprisal. Face the facts. Israelis are a bloodthirsty lot. Just look at the frequency with which they initiate armed conflict with nearly any neighboring state. I'd compare numbers with your ISIS stats, but I'm afraid that Gaza is a tiny fraction of the size of the territory ISIS is operating in. If we looked at number of dead per day per square mile, you wouldn't be quite so quick to encourage these comparisons.

    Also, thank you for appointing me an Anti-Israel propagandist. I hear dismissing people outright is a great way of winning them over in rational debate.

  • by budgenator (254554) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @01:36PM (#47559541) Journal

    My understanding is the Palestinians were offered citizenship in Isreal when it formed, and the surrounding Muslim countries promised the Palestinians that they would push Isreal into the sea if the Palestinians refused Israeli citizenship, and the Palestinians are still waiting. Being Palestinian really has to suck, they're treated worse by their allies than they are by their enemies.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:5, Insightful)

    by NoNonAlphaCharsHere (2201864) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @03:04PM (#47560295)
    I'm old enough to remember Nasser and the 7-day war, and Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon [wikipedia.org] and the resulting mess it caused, even to this day. For forty years I've been shaking my head at Israeli intransigence. Eventually, maybe someone will come forward in Israel who realizes that "give us everything WE want up front, and then we'd perhaps be willing to sit down and talk about and maybe even consider what YOU want" isn't really an effective first-offer negotiating position.

    I will cheerfully admit that Israel has a right to exist, and to defend itself. However, it seems that every time they "go over the line defending themselves" they end up occupying territory that didn't formerly belong to them, and never leaving, which only further exacerbates an already powder-keg situation.

    I'll also cheerfully admit that everyone in that part of the world is fucking nuts, driven by religious extremism and centuries-old resentments, and completely immune to reason or compromise.

    The real "Israeli" problem is the propaganda war that conflates the Israeli government and the Jewish people, and the world has been falling for this transparent trick for 70 years.
  • Re:Radicalization (Score:5, Insightful)

    by joocemann (1273720) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @06:35PM (#47561841)

    What you mean is that Israel doesn't consider what is 'currently' Gaza to be its own terriitory -- but that its own territory expands inch by inch at the crest of a bulldozer, and that any 'living beings' within that expansion ought to move to Gaza or die. Is that what you mean?

    Lets at least keep reality on the table here.

  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by DutchUncle (826473) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:28PM (#47563421)
    Do you also remember Nasser saying things like “Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel." and "We will not accept any coexistence with Israel" and ordering the UN peacekeepers out of the way? And moving troops and tanks up to Israel's southern border?

    Let's imagine your neighbor spends his days sitting on his porch steps, polishing his guns and cursing at you and your family every time he sees you. Well, that's his right, free speech, his property, yadda yadda. Then he starts pointing his gun at you and your family while he talks about how much he'd like to kill all of you. In the US there should be *some* kind of civil action one could take, but countries don't answer to policemen, so let's assume you can't call anyone. How tenable would you find this situation?
  • Re:Radicalization (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Darinbob (1142669) on Tuesday July 29, 2014 @11:53PM (#47563521)

    No I am not encouraging people to use hostages as shields. I am encouraging people to not shoot through the hostages to get to the bad guy behind them.

    Imagine if Hamas was shooting rockets from within an Israeli home or hospital, do you think the Israeli army would be so quick to bomb it? So why then is it ok to bomb a Palestinean home or hospital, is it because those hostages are not considered as valuable?

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the demigodic party. -- Dennis Ritchie

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