US, Germany To Enter No-Spying Agreement 209
itwbennett writes "The German Federal Intelligence Service said in a news release that the U.S. has verbally committed to enter into a no-spying agreement with Germany. The no-spying agreement talks were announced as part of a progress report on an eight-point program proposed by German Chancellor Angela Merkel in July with measures to better protect the privacy of German citizens. In the progress report, the German government found that U.S. intelligence services comply with German law. Also, the operators of large German Internet exchanges and the federal government did not find any evidence that the U.S. spies on Germans, the government said."
yeah, right (Score:5, Insightful)
and no one will ever cheat.
I want one too (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I want one too (Score:5, Insightful)
We have one, it's called the fourth amendment.
See how well that turned out for us?
Don't worry USA! (Score:5, Insightful)
The UK will spy on Germany for you!
Re:yeah, right (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, a verbal commitment is worth the paper it's written on.
Mutual spying agreement (Score:5, Insightful)
I read this as a "spying exchange agreement". The US promises not to spy on Germans, and the Germans agree not to spy on Americans.
Instead, if the NSA wants spy data on German citizens, they'll metaphorically "extradite" data that the German government has collected on its citizens (and vice versa).
That would be my guess, anyway.
No problems ...wink wink (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:yeah, right (Score:4, Insightful)
WHEREAS
"USA" shall mean the "United States of America" and all its government and military institutions. ...
"US Citizen" shall mean any citizen of "USA".
WHEREAS ...
"Germany" shall mean the Federal Republic of Germany and any and all government and military institutions.
"German Citizen" shall mean any citizen of "Germany".
NOW THEREFORE,
Germany and USA agree that neither party shall secretly or otherwise authorize any of its citizens to secretly obtain information about the other party's citizen or those citizen's communication, publication, ... within the other party's legal borders unless expressly authorized by the other party.
--snip--
Do you see the problem?
1) "Oh, sorry. We though he is not a citizen of your country because his name isn't a typical German/US name."
2) "We didn't spy within your borders. We just checked emails on Gmail, Yahoo, etc."
3) "We never authorized such spying. We will identify the person and fire him/her."
4) "Hey Max, I have this guy in [Berlin|New York] and have ample int that he might be plotting to commit acts of terrorism. Can you let me spy on him?" - Max: "Yeah, sure, go ahead. I also have a guy in [Munich|Orlando], can I spy on him? He seems to be interested in pressure cookers..." - "Of course, be my guest."
Just for the fun of it - I've been doing contracts for so many years, I love picking at them and trying to identify all the holes in them...
Sounds legit (Score:4, Insightful)
- "We're not spying on anyone, we promise."
- "Here's proof you were spying."
- "Oops. Well, we won't spy on anyone anymore, we promise."
who cares? (Score:4, Insightful)
I have no problem with the German government trying to spy on me. Why? Because the German government has no jurisdiction over me. German state security can't appear on my doorstep and arrest me, no matter how much Merkel or her minions may disapprove of me.
I do have a problem with the US government spying on me, because DHS and DEA can appear on my doorstep and make my life miserable if they don't like me or want to enrich themselves or find it useful for some other reason, circumventing the justice system and the rule of law.
Obama made restoring privacy and the rule of law a key point of his presidential bid, and it has turned out to be complete lies.
Re:No problems ...wink wink (Score:4, Insightful)
Election Time in Germany (Score:2, Insightful)
It is election campaigning time in Germany: 'A German federal election will be held on 22 September 2013 to determine the 598 (or more, if overhangs are produced) members of the 18th Bundestag, the main federal legislative house of Germany.' (wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_2013)
These talks about a no-spying agreement is to calm down the population and to try to keep Germans happy about reelecting the incumbents or former incumbents of the major, established parties. The NSA spying scandal could benefit new-comer parties like the Pirate Party.
Re:No problems ...wink wink (Score:5, Insightful)
The US will just contract out the spying to a third party (or country, ally). No harm no foul. Money talks.
Yes, the US will contract out it's Euro spying to Germany.
Meanwhile Germany will contract out it's America spying to the US.
Job done.
Re:yeah, right (Score:2, Insightful)
How so? In a verbal agreement, there is no record of what was said. If there is a conflict, it is one person's word against another's. A written constitution at least provides something that you can point at and say "yes, you did agree to that" (even if the other party is powerful enough to say "well fuck you, I don't care").
It's every bit as good as a written Constitution with "United States" in the title.
Re:yeah, right (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. I was going to say "don't fall for this, Germany -- we have an agreement for our government not to spy on us, too... it's called the Constitution... which our current Constitutional Lawyer president and former presidents have completely shit upon".