Bolivian President's Plane 'Rerouted Over Snowden Suspicions' 621
niftydude writes with the latest news on the Edward Snowden saga. It appears that the Bolivian President's plane was denied access to French and Spanish airspace due to suspicions that Snowden was on board. Quoting a few pieces from the Guardian: "In an extraordinary move, France and Portugal revoked flight clearances for the Bolivian President's plane on Tuesday after representations were reportedly made by the U.S. State Department. Mr Morales was flying home from an energy conference in Moscow and his aircraft was hastily rerouted to Vienna, Austria. Bolivian Foreign Minister David Choquehuanca angrily denied that Mr Snowden was on the President's aircraft, a fact later confirmed by Austrian authorities, and said France and Portugal would have to explain why they abruptly canceled authorization for the flight. AP reports that Venezuela's foreign minister Elias Jaua has condemned the decision by France and Portugal to block the plane from its airspace. He claimed that changing a flight's route without checking on how much fuel was left in the plane, put Morales' life at risk."
Spain claims they only agreed to allow the plane to refuel there if it were subject to search, and France did end up authorizing use of their air space today. In related news, Julian Assange and the general secretary of Reporters Without Borders Christophe Deloire published an Op-Ed today why Europe must protect Snowden. And: dryriver sends news that Ecuador discovered that their embassy in London was bugged, describing the incident as "another instance of a loss of ethics at the international level in relations between governments."
Complete asshat move by the White House (Score:5, Informative)
No matter what you think of Snowden, at this point he's just a whistleblower or spy.
If the US wants to search plane, they can fucking do it themselves - they still have an Air Force, after all.
Re:God it feels good to be an American!!!!!!! (Score:5, Informative)
As usual, US officials and their acolytes who invoke "the law" to demand severe punishment for powerless individuals (Edward Snowden, Bradley Manning) instantly exploit the same concept to protect US political officials, their owners and their allies from the worst crimes: torture, warrantless eavesdropping, rendition, systemic financial fraud, deceiving Congress and the US public about their surveillance behavior. If you're spending your time calling for Ed Snowden's head but not James Clapper's, or if you're obsessed with Snowden's fabricated personality attributes (narcissist!) but apathetic about rampant, out-of-control NSA surveillance, it's probably worth spending a few moments thinking about what this priority scheme reveals.
Re:They still can get out of Europe with some risk (Score:5, Informative)
Afaict Morales was flying in a business jet that didn't have enough fuel to go Russia-Bolivia nonstop, so the original plan was to refuel in Western Europe before continuing on. So that complicates the possibility of just overflying without permission and daring them to shoot him down, because he'd actually have to land and refuel at their airports, not just overfly.
Re:So what was it? (Score:2, Informative)
It was Spain, France, Italy, and Portugal. The submitter also neglected to mention that these countries deny the accusations.
Re:God it feels good to be an American!!!!!!! (Score:5, Informative)
A'int no "home of the free". The US has more people incarcerated - per capita and in raw number - than any nation on Earth, or even in all of human history!
While accounting for a mere 5% of the global population, the US has an aggregated 25% of the world's prisoners, and is growing this at a consistent, exponential rate.
You have states, like Louisiana, where one out of every 55 people in the state is a prisoner for the duration of a year or more.
We make China look like amateur hour. Stalin? a blip.
Now. How can anyone argue that there's no such thing as "brainwashing", or that it only works on stupid or ignorant people?
Re:God it feels good to be an American!!!!!!! (Score:4, Informative)
I agree that we in the US have long ago since stopped being the land of the free, but I don't think Stalin is a good comparison. I doubt we really know how many people disappeared in the night, how many were actually incarcerated, how many were sent to Siberia, how many were just killed outright.
Re:God it feels good to be an American!!!!!!! (Score:5, Informative)
From Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]: (emphasis mine)
Re:So what was it? (Score:4, Informative)
It was Spain, France, Italy, and Portugal. The submitter also neglected to mention that these countries deny the accusations.
Citation? I'm not sure that Spain and Italy were accused, but I know that at least so far Portugal and France have not denied the accusations. They refuse to comment on the matter. Are you gullible enough to believe that the Bolivian president just made up the whole thing and chose to have his plane diverted to Austria and then searched?
Re:God it feels good to be an American!!!!!!! (Score:4, Informative)
Life's about choices, and if you've made the kind of choices where the navy is firing at you, it's probably not a big loss to humanity if we have to kick you off the planet.
What about the people who just happen to be nearby the people the Navy is aiming at? Do they deserve to be killed too? How many of the approximately 500,000 people in Iraq who were killed qualify as the bad guys that aren't a big loss to humanity?
These are not people who will sit down at the breakfast table and discuss their problems calmly over a croissant.
Really? How many have you asked? I'm reminded of the point where we were planning to attack Iraq, and Dan Rather went over to Iraq and sat down with Saddam Hussein for a perfectly calm interview, which suggests that they might in fact be willing to talk. For what it's worth, the people of Iran just elected a guy who was pushing for just that approach to dealing with the US (assuming the croissant is halal).
They're going to kill people for what we consider no reason at all, and the only thing they can understand is force.
I strongly suspect that those who engage in terrorism think the same about us. For example, we have 86 Yemenis locked up in Gitmo right now that we have determined have committed no crime against us. We have killed more than a few Yemenis with drone strikes, despite no (publicly known) terrorist attacks from Yemen on the United States and an alliance with the Yemeni government.
Re: spy novel (Score:5, Informative)
What is different, is that we have direct information (not statements, not conjecture, not foil hattery) about the surveillance. It is the difference between suspecting (or even having a well grounded belief), and KNOWING. It is the difference between knowing that AT&T set up splitters, and wondering what happens after that, and knowing what happens after that.
More to the point though, if we do nothing after these revelations, the DC pukes will take it as a mandate to do more and worse.
So instead of wasting your time and everyone else's lamenting how long it has taken to get to the point where real pushback can occur, get on board and start pushing the fuck back. Hard.
Demand prosecutions, impeachment proceedings. Start with the obvious, like Clapper's felonious perjury, and then keep plowing the bastards. Don't sit back and whine about people not acting in the past -- that is a useless waste of time and just plays into the enemy's hands. So stand up and fight, or if you won't do that, go back to your cotton row and shut the fuck up.
Re:God it feels good to be an American!!!!!!! (Score:2, Informative)
Remember, the constitution does not recognize a right to life, but it does recognize a right to due process.
Funny, last I looked the constitution started thus (emphasis mine):
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Re:God it feels good to be an American!!!!!!! (Score:3, Informative)
Other people have responded with the correct answer, but I will too - armies engaged with enemies on foreign soil do not require judicial review to kill them. This is true for every country in the world which has engaged in conflicts.
According to US laws, it does require a declaration of war.
And according to the UN charter, the Chapter VII only allows that for self defence or as a UN sanctioned intervention.
So no, you cannot kill foreign nationals anywhere without judicial review, lest you commit a war crime.
Re:God it feels good to be an American!!!!!!! (Score:5, Informative)
I remember that incident you are referring to. If you remember it as well, or if you read the Wikipedia article, you'll see that the Vincennes attempted to identify the Iranian airliner, failed, and in the tense environment, overlooked a series of cues that could have distinguished it from a hostile fighter. So when the airliner did not respond to radio contact, the captain ordered a missile fired at it.
Consensus is that it was a horrible mistake.
So consider this. When and where the US Navy deploys is up to politicians. There are *way* too many hawks in the US government right now, but that's not the Navy's fault. Future tragedies can be averted by giving the Navy better technology. Consider for example better radar that can tell the operator clearly whether the aircraft is ascending or descending, or better communications so the cruiser can get a video feed from a friendly aircraft or drone to visually identify the target before they decide to shoot. This would make the Navy deadlier toward people the Navy is trying to kill, but potentially a lot less deadly toward people it is *not* trying to kill.
If you want to prevent the next Iran Air 655, there are two approaches. You can stop the US sending its military all over the world (good luck!). Or you can provide them with the best sensors and information systems money can buy so when they have to decide whether to pull the trigger, they make that decision with the best possible information.
And yes, I've done Navy work myself. You may wish me a slow, horrible death, too, but I would prefer to discuss your objections over a croissant.
Re:God it feels good to be an American!!!!!!! (Score:4, Informative)
No, siree, Jim Bob! The captain who gave the order to fire on a civilian aircraft was awarded a medal! [dailypress.com]
"The president of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Legion of Merit to Capt. Will C. Rogers III, U.S. Navy, for service as set forth in the following citation:
"For exceptionally . . . outstanding service as commanding officer, USS Vincennes from April 1987 to May 1989"