Third 2012 US Presidential Debate Tonight: Discuss Here 529
Tonight marks the third and final U.S. Presidential debate in the lead-up to the election on November 6th. It starts at 9PM ET (6PM PT, 0100 UTC), and it's taking place at Lynn University in Florida. The topic this time around is foreign policy, including discussions of Afghanistan and Pakistan, Israel and Iran, America's role in the world, "The Changing Middle East and the New Face of Terrorism," and China's rise as a superpower. You can livestream it from the usual suspects: (C-SPAN, ABC, PBS, CNN). Politifact has posted an article fact-checking statements the candidates have made about foreign policy. Both they and Factcheck.org will be using Twitter to verify statements in real time. This presidential debate again excludes the smaller U.S. political parties. If you're interested in hearing other voices, you'll be able to see candidates from the Libertarian, Green, Constitution, and Justice parties in a debate tomorrow with Larry King moderating. As before, we're doing a separate post for the debate in the hopes that political talk won't clutter other stories tonight. Tell us what you think as the debate unfolds. For live conversation, remember: context helps. And, as reader Ryanator2209 keeps pointing out, you can entertain yourself by playing Logical Fallacy Bingo while you watch.
a sad field (Score:4, Insightful)
I've watched all the #debates so far and it's sad how little they say, tapdance around questions, avoid talking about the critical issues while spending lots of time on things that don't matter for shit.
Sad, sad field. These ain't the best, and they ain't the brightest.
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:5, Insightful)
Nice try Anonymous Coward.. But most of the Slashdot readers here are educated enough to know that Obama is only slightly less authoritarian than Romney and 'socialism' is just a word used in the wrong context to demagogue Obama. Further, most Slashdot readers are smart enough to see that Romney changes his rhetoric for whatever crowd he's entertaining and either candidate just continues the march towards facism.. It's just that Obama seems to want to march slower.
I'll be voting Gary Johnson. Even though I think Obama is the slightly lesser of two evils, I am sick of voting for evil.
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:2, Insightful)
It doesn't matter which wins.
Obama is brown lunch with grey sauce, and Romney is grey lunch with brown sauce. (And no. That is not a euphamism for their races. It's an animaniacs reference.)
It doesn't matter which one wins. Regardless, a deleterious agenda will be spearheaded. It is a false dichotomy to say we must choose which of those agendas to bend over for.
Personally, I'd vote for "assasinate both and start over", but in civilized countries this isn't an option. I'll grudgingly settle for "insane and unpredictable" with a write in for Paul. (Insane and unpredictable at least frustrates all major agendas.)
In other words, Obama and Romney will lie more (Score:5, Insightful)
Why listen to lies, when you can uncover the truth?
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:3, Insightful)
Did you think capitalism won with the fall of the Soviet Union? Think again. His blatant attempt to inject government control into all facets of our lives (not just health care - where it has no business anyway) is the culmination of decades of left wing planning and if we don't stop this power grab now, we may never be able to.
Indeed. All this government control ("regulations" they call it) are mightly interfering with my business plan to sell rat poison in cans labeled Nutritious Food.
I can't believe how blatant this government control is, and how people can just sit back and let me be completely unable to sell them rat poison in cans labeled Nutritious Food.
It's un-American!
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:5, Insightful)
Our current president has an agenda to redistribute the wealth from the smart, capable, entrepeneurs to the fat, slobby, freeloading welfare moms.
Meanwhile the smart capable entrepreneurs have an agenda to redistribute all wealth to themselves. A healthy society needs that balance.
. His blatant attempt to inject government control into all facets of our lives (not just health care - where it has no business anyway) is the culmination of decades of left wing planning and if we don't stop this power grab now, we may never be able to.
a) The republicans grab power just as aggressively at every opportunity.
b) The government absolutely has a role in healthcare. I do not want healthcare allocated according to who can pay the most for it; nor which insurance companies can model who is likely to get sick and exclude those people, or deny care to people who are already afflicted (pre-existing conditions). Capitalism is not the right model.
Whether or not it should be a federal program vs state is certainly a legitimate discussion, but healthcare is a government mandate that the majority wants in some form.
If you are a true patriot and love this country that we call home, you must vote for Mitt Romney next month and preserve the dream that anyone can come from the most humble of beginnings and succeed in this melting pot we call the United States of America.
Only an idiot should fall that nonsense. Your odds of going from humble beginnings to success are increased if you are given a leg up while in the 'humble beginnings' stage; if you aren't deprived an education because you can't afford it, if you aren't financially wiped out because someone in your family tripped and broke a few ribs, it gets a lot easier to become a productive member of society, to save up a nest-egg, to strike out as an entrepreneur, to become a -gasp- "job creator".
How exactly does the argument that government wealth redistribution prevents people from succeeding work? Bearing in mind that all the evidence shows that the wealthy are doing just fine, and indeed are getting wealthier by the day.
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:4, Insightful)
Way to go! Instead of using your vote to keep out the worst possible outcome for everyone (Romney), you're throwing it away
What I find hilarious is that the Obama supporters I have spoken to, including people who are out canvassing for Obama's campaign, cannot come up with a better argument than this: "Well at least he's not Mitt Romney!" What kind of a reason is that to vote for a someone? Oh, and, newsflash: Obama is a terrible candidate. Here is what Obama's administration has done:
Yeah, that really sounds like someone we need in the white house. Sure, Romney is not going to do things differently -- so why even pretend there is a difference? Anything you can say Romney would do that is bad, there is something equally bad that Obama is doing right now.
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:5, Insightful)
I really don't understand how so many slashdotters fail to grasp that the two party system doesn't just happen by chance. It's not just that voters consider only two parties before their brains explode. It's first-past-the-post voting. Get a parlimentary system in place if you want a third party. Otherwise, just vote in the primaries and realize that the same people who are getting elected now are the same people who would get elected under a multiparty system.
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:3, Insightful)
No.. Third party votes do count. When the Republicans and Democrats are working together to divide the people in half as evenly as possible, and only winning by small margins, a small-margin of third-party votes has a huge effect.
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:2, Insightful)
I'll be voting Gary Johnson. Even though I think Obama is the slightly lesser of two evils, I am sick of voting for evil.
Please tell me you don't live in a swing state.
It is sometimes your duty as a thinking individual to choose between two evils. No one wants to have to, but it is sometimes the choice that is in front of you.
The problem is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:a sad field (Score:5, Insightful)
No, what is sad is how people judge a "winner" of a debate. I've seen honest conservatives who thought the first debate was a draw while the vast majority of people thought Romney won based on being "aggressive". Apparently the Romney ape beat his chest harder than the Obama ape, and that is enough for the rest of the tribe to decide that Romney is alpha and Obama the beta.
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:5, Insightful)
No.. Third party votes do count. When the Republicans and Democrats are working together to divide the people in half as evenly as possible, and only winning by small margins, a small-margin of third-party votes has a huge effect.
The only problem is that "huge effect" is, usually, negative for the interests they represent. They "steal" votes from the candidate that is near to their interests making the other win. So, you have a real disincentive to promote a third party.
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:4, Insightful)
They "steal" votes from the candidate that is near to their interests making the other win. So, you have a real disincentive to promote a third party.
You can't call a person not being given something that doesn't belong to them "stealing". Even the quotes you added to suggest you were already dubious of the use of the term. I may as well tell people that Gore "stole" the election from Nader. If Gore hadn't been running, Nader would have gotten all of the non-Bush votes!
Nothing will ever change if people continue to think in terms of the lesser of two evils since evil always "has a real disincentive to promote a third party."
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:5, Insightful)
It is sometimes your duty as a thinking individual to choose between two evils. No one wants to have to, but it is sometimes the choice that is in front of you.
Relevant quote from Douglas Adams's So Long, And Thanks For All The Fish:
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:3, Insightful)
Only an American would be so Fucking stupid as to think Obama is a socialist. Americans don't have the foggiest clue what socialism is.
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:5, Insightful)
I call you out on your demagogue word 'socialism' and you replace it with 'Marxist' like that is somehow a good argument. It's just name-calling. I'm not worried about socialism or communism.. Like I said earlier, I am worried about facism.
And, since I will be the one voting, I will decide whether or not I am losing by casting a losing vote. Perhaps my only goal is to influence the scope of discussion and open up both 'sides' to the ideas that only Gary Johnson is talking about. My choice is to expand the scope of discussion. My choice is for a better Republican candidate than the one the Establishment dictates to me. My choice is that it would be better for the Republicans in the long run to lose the election to a bad President than to win the election with a bad candidate.
My vote is for Gary Johnson. Obama is simply not better than Romney by enough of a margin for me to vote for him; and vice-versa. Gary Johnson is on the ballot and my choice is for him.
third party voters: (Score:5, Insightful)
you have a lot more power than you think
but your power is counterintuitive
in 1992, ross perot voters meant bill clinton won
in 2000, ralph nader voters meant gw bush won (well, al gore actually won, but he lost the bullshit filter we call the electoral college by a hair's sliver that nader voters greatly outnumbered)
in 2012, you guys may again decide who wins since the election is so close
third party voters come from a disillusioned left, or a disillusioned right. it seems to me that this election cycle has more disillusioned voters on the right. meaning: obama wins, as the right is fractionated to some extent by voters for someone other than romney
unfortunately, we live in a system where you have to vote strategically, not idealistically
1. for those of you who vote strategically (not the guy i like the best but the guy closest of the main parties), you get someone closer to your ideology in the white house
2. for those of you who vote idealistically (screw the guy who could win, i like THIS guy), you get someone further away from your ideology in the white house (see 1992 and 2000 above)
now, other systems where more than two parties dominate: is that really such a rosy world? ask someone in parliamentary systems where coalition governments form: you have people close to you ideologically, getting into bed with ideologies that are extremely odious to you, to stay in power. coalitions of perverse arrangement
in other words, other countries are not better than the usa if ideological purity is so important to you, they are just compromised in different ways than the american system
such that, an ugly truth for you: you will NEVER, as long as you ever live, have someone you love ideologically in power. you will ALWAYS have someone who is kinda sorta like you, as your best bet. this is true no matter what your ideology, right or left. why? because that's EXACTLY what politics is: compromise, in order to lead. that's what politics always was, what it is, and what it always will be. and only an ideologue is angrily allergic to compromise. and thank god, therefore, your man will never lead in a sane country. because the leader who champions rigid ideology over compromise is dangerous
politics is a game to appeal a lot of people weakly, than a few strongly. get used to it. the candidates who have the best chance to lead, always, FOREVER, will appeal to you ONLY weakly
you should accept this truth, and always vote strategically instead of ideologically
or help elect the guy further away from you ideologically by voting idealistically
your choice
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:5, Insightful)
You made the claim that the candidates are the same. I pointed out that they were different.
That's it. I never shoehorned you into either camp. I said I was disgusted by your apathy towards an election that will literally be life or death for many people. There are clear and important differences between the candidates, and to deny that is the height of recklessness.
Those differences include:
Abortion. Romney would outlaw it, Obama would preserve the status quo. From your post, you should prefer Obama.
Medicare. Romney would end it, Obama would make some minor tweaks to keep it solvent. From your post, you would prefer Romney. You're wrong, and don't seem to understand that sending seniors to the for-profit corporations for care would not improve outcomes, but you should at least acknowledge there's a difference.
Military spending. Obama is trying to cut it by $100Byr, Romney wants to increase it by $200B/yr. You gave no indication of which you prefer, but unless you're barely-sentient, you must have some sort of opinion on the matter.
Taxes. Romney would cut them 20% across the board, Obama would raise them by a few percent on people earning $250k+/yr, and by ~10% on capital gains. Again, surely you have some opinion on the matter.
Gay rights. Sounds like you ought to be in the Democrat's camp on this one, if you truly don't condone mistreatment of people based on their sexual orientation.
War. Romney wants to ramp military spending, has said a little while ago in the debate that we should be arming the Syrian rebels, has accused Obama of not sufficiently supporting Israel, etc. If he's elected, there's a better than even chance that we'll be at war in Iran in the next two years. Obama has resisted calls by Israel to support bombing strikes against Iran, pursuing every possible alternative, and wants to cut military spending. I can't guarantee that he wouldn't go to war, but it seems far less likely.
Any reasonable person should come to the conclusion that Obama is the better choice here. An unreasonable one, who perhaps has their view of the world tainted by religion, might think Romney is the better choice. But only an absolute fool would say it doesn't matter either way.
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't get me wrong, I approve of a lot of Gary Johnson's platform, but the idea of eliminating the IRS, income taxes, corporate income taxes...I'm sorry but I think that's insane. Not even Ireland has 0% corporate income tax, and consumption (sorry, "expenditure") taxes are regressive.
I'd love to support Mr. Johnson but I rather like the civilized society that we live in and I know that taxes are the price we pay for such a society.
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:5, Insightful)
The only problem is that "huge effect" is, usually, negative for the interests they represent.
This is true in the short run. But in the long run, voting for a third party causes the major parties to move in that direction to win these voters back. The popularity of the Socialist Party [wikipedia.org] in the early 20th Century caused the Democrats under FDR to move significantly to the left.
Since neither the Libertarians nor the Greens get many votes, the major parties are under little pressure to champion personal liberty and/or stronger environmentalism. By supporting one of these parties, you can change that. Unless you live in a swing state, your vote is meaningless anyway, so voting third party is the only way to make a difference.
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:5, Insightful)
550 goddamn votes in Florida and you'd see what difference not electing Bush the Lesser would have made, kemosabe.
Both the same? Only if your an "Edgy Nerd"... (Score:5, Insightful)
They are both the same? Not to me. As a cancer patient who has gone from unemployed to a semi-well paying job, I can now get insurance that I couldn't get/hope to afford before Obama.
You close your eyes and ears and say it all looks/sounds the same. Your an albatross around the neck of this country, and if you truly feel that way, brush up on your Mandarin and move to China where it really is all the same.
Re:Worthless... (Score:5, Insightful)
Romney refuses to answer any HARD questions. Obama refuses to answer them as well.
True.
They both are the same. Hooray for the new king, same as the old king!
They are NOT. They are LARGELY the same, with the exception of a few issues where they clearly are NOT (taxes, gay rights, health care)
While I very much see your point, just because 80% of the issues have been cemented by a repulsive silent agreement between two parties, is still no reason to state that they are the same. There is still a lesser evil and a greater evil here, even though it isn't as much of a difference as I would have hoped.
Proof is in the terrible pudding (Score:3, Insightful)
If Obama is so "knowledgeable" about foreign relations, how is it that our foreign relations are in such dire straights?
No improvement in the middle east, and in fact things are generally worse than when he entered office. No improvement in regards to ally or "non-allies" like Iran and Pakistan, and very soon things will be worse with Iran.
Lots of promises, no deliveries and even Libya is significantly tarnished as a victory. Woo-Hoo that we managed to assassinate a key leader of Al-Quieda, but they are apparently organized enough to still do significant harm.
The one thing Obama could have done a lot earlier was to cut losses in Afghanistan and realize we really could not do more there than already has been done. But he was fully in for a surge there because it worked in Iraq, without seeing the differences.
I don't feel like the world at large is at all better place for having Obama as a steward, why would I want to escalate the train wreck that is already not in very slow motion at all? The fact is the U.S. is simply too powerful to sit out world politics but Obama is just not suited to figure out how to wield that power to positive effect.
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:5, Insightful)
But Nader wouldn't have received all the non-Bush votes, just as Perot wouldn't have received all the non Bush Sr./Dole votes. But the inverse is true. Gore would have received nearly all (I would guess 99% with the remaining 1% just not voting) of the Nader votes and Bush Sr./Dole would have received those Perot votes.
There's historical precedent for this conclusion: The elections of 1912 is a particularly good example, where the Republican vote was split between Theodore Roosevelt running independently and Howard Taft the defending Republican incumbent.
The biggest problem is that our system of government is outdated, inefficient, and ineffective. But to criticize the U.S. Constitution is taboo (funny how the most staunch defenders of this antiquated document know the least about it). Voting for a third party candidate is just voting against one's interests and will continue to be the case as long as our government is run by this ridiculous bicameral legislative system and selects the head of state through an electoral college. The only hope for this to happen is for the average citizen to become better educated and thus better able to see through the nationalistic bullshit of worshipping the U.S. Constitution and the men who founded this country. That's why I'm voting for Obama - I don't think he'll enact the specific changes I would like to see, nor do I think he'd have the power to do so if he wanted to - but he does prioritize education, which sets America on the path to overcoming the chains of our federalist system. In an era when technology is steadily making manual labor less necessary, this country cannot afford to have as many uneducated, unskilled people running amok as it currently does.
It doesn't matter if people think in the terms of the 'lesser of two evils' or not. The average voter is a moron. It doesn't matter what they think. Statement votes to third party candidates will do nothing to better this country. Voting for Obama does.
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:4, Insightful)
That attitude is what's wrong with US elections. Vote your conscience. Sure, it might cause your least favourite party to win this election, but how big is the difference anyway? And if you keep up the strategic voting crap, nothing will ever change.
Re:Worthless... (Score:5, Insightful)
well, one is a lot more publicly religious than the other. I don't like that. I actually hate that! its a showstopper for me.
the other keeps his religion in check.
this is not just them, either; its representative of their parties.
vote NO on american taliban.
that one issue will get in our way of so much progress. please don't send us backwards again! we had that with bush and the other republicans since reagan. enough with the christian bullshit, already! we are a mixed nation and we like it that way.
now, bring republicans back about 20 or 30 yrs and we might have something. before they got all preachy and holier than thou.
but the current R crowd, makes me sick. physically sick. that says a lot.
Re:Vote non-Democrat so hard questions will be ask (Score:3, Insightful)
That will not happen with a Republican in office, the press will be more than eager to ask the tough questions
were you alive during the bush era?
he got more passes than your favorite football star.
tell me again how the 'liberal press' really socks it to the R's. I could use some good fantasy about now.
Re:Vote non-Democrat so hard questions will be ask (Score:2, Insightful)
You haven't actually met any journalists, have you? How precisely do you explain the 6 years where journalists were giving Bush a free ride without asking any particularly pointed questions about the various crimes against humanity and violations of the constitution?
The reality is that the media does a piss poor job lately of serving as a watch dog until things go way off the rails.
And trust me, if a journalist had to choose between getting the scoop on something embarrassing that Obama did, they would go for it, it's mostly just right wing nutters that seem to think that the liberals have some sort of lock on the media.
The Smart Way to Vote Third Party (Score:5, Insightful)
This is true in the short run. But in the long run, voting for a third party causes the major parties to move in that direction to win these voters back.
Very true, and voting third party can also have other benefits. You just have to do it smartly.
You only risk letting "the greater evil" win if you live in a swing state. If your state is solidly for one of the major parties, you can safely vote third party without risking the vote affecting the major parties. So for example, living in California, I can assume that Obama will win my state not matter how I vote, and so I can vote for whatever third party I feel like without worrying about "spoiling" anything (depending on which I would otherwise support, either victory is assured or it is impossible, either way there's no point wasting effort fighting about it).
So if you live in a swing state, yes, vote the lesser of the two evils who are most likely to win. If you don't, however, voting for your preferred third party will get you several other benefits, besides the one quoted above (major party platforms shift to try to recapture the third party vote):
- It increases the size of the third party supporter bloc (both for that party, and for the concept of third parties), which helps promote the third party (and the concept of third parties) even if they didn't win. Since they weren't going to win anyway, and your non-swing state was going the way it did anyway, this is pure win at no risk here.
But besides that obvious benefit:
- If people in your non-swing state start doing this who would otherwise vote for your state's shoe-in candidate (e.g. if California liberals start voting Green instead of Democrat), then that eventually makes your state a swing state, and suddenly your vote matters a whole lot more! This combined with parent poster's point about major parties courting the third party vote, but even better: since you're not a swing state, they care a lot about capturing your vote, giving your preferred third party's platform a major influence on them.
- That second point can however go the other way, e.g. if California conservatives start voting Libertarian, that just entrenches California more firmly as a Democrat state, with a large Democrat bloc vs smaller Republican and Libertarian blocs. However, since (for example) California is already a firmly Democrat state, you can feel free to take this all the way and eat up all the Republican votes you want, go right ahead and kill the Republican party in California, you won't be making any difference in who wins there so still no harm in letting the "greater evil" win since (for a conservative who ranks Libertarians > Republicans > Democrats) they would have anyway. So you can feel free to "spoil" the "lesser evil" all you want, and if you can manage it, go on to supplant them, e.g. turn the California election into Democrats vs Libertarians instead of Democrats vs Republicans.
Combining all these effects, voting third party in a non-swing state can have major influences. To use my own state for an example again, if we assume (perhaps questionably) that a large bloc of liberals generally prefer Greens > Democrats > Republicans, and a large bloc of conservatives generally prefer Libertarians > Republicans > Democrats, then if those people all follow this strategy instead of abstaining or voting for "the lesser evil", California could end up with a more notable Green party, Democrats eagerly adopting a lot of Green policies to try to keep the liberal vote, and at least a much larger Libertarian party if not one wholly supplanting the Republican party, and Republicans eagerly adopting a lot of Libertarian policies.
Suddenly you've got something almost resembling a healthy multi-party system, all without anyone ever risking "the greater evil" getting into office. And all this in what's now quite possibly a swing state, so very influential on national politics, and either way having an inevitable run-on effect o
Re:Vote non-Democrat so hard questions will be ask (Score:4, Insightful)
It's well documented that a vast majority of journalists are registered Democrats
And their bosses -- the people who own the big media empires -- are registered Republicans.
Who do you think has the bigger influence, the boss or the peons who work for him?
Pretty obvious Romney lost (Score:4, Insightful)
Just from all the "fuck politics, I'm going back to being a libertarian" pouting I'm seeing here. Just like right after the 2008 election.
As for the actual DEBATE, anyone catch Romney's comment about Syria important to Iran as their only shipping route to the ocean? Or, how about how he went from "the Arab spring sucked, we shouldn't have done it" to "I agree with deposing Mubarak." He also went back to defending the $5/$2 trillion tax-cut/defense spending hike he DENIED in the 1st debate.
Also notable was Romney getting called out on his Big Flashy Numbers approach to military spending which works fantastic when you're cheerleading for your base, but really poorly when there's someone to challenge you. OMG did you know our Air Force is smaller than it was in 1947???? When we had tens of thousands of prop jobs and 1st generation jets as opposed to a mere hundreds of supersonic modern fighters with state-of-the-art electronics???? Oh noes!!!
Re:Is it a US presidential debate ... (Score:4, Insightful)
America has a lot of problems right now.
You failed to mention one of the most serious ones [wikipedia.org].
Re:Socialist agenda on full display tonite (Score:0, Insightful)
Gary Johnson, being a libertarian, is *even more evil* than Obama. At least with Obamacare millions of Americans who would now suffer a slow and painful death due to lack of insurance will get some treatment. Under a Libertarian government its every man for himself and fuck anyone who cant afford to get sick.