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The Long Reach of US Extradition 242

Posted by timothy
from the blue-passports-money-and-guns dept.
CuteSteveJobs writes "The New Matilda reports how the U.S. is now able to extradite people for minor offences, and asks why foreign governments so willingly give up their nationals to the U.S. to 'face justice' over minor crimes committed outside U.S. borders? Lawyer Kellie Tranter writes, 'the long arm of the Government is using criminal enforcement powers to enforce commercial interests at the behest of corporations and their lobbyists.' A former NSW Chief Judge said it was bizarre 'that people are being extradited to the U.S. to face criminal charges when they have never been to the U.S. and the alleged act occurred wholly outside the U.S.' He said although copyright violations are a great problem, a country 'must protect its nationals from being removed from their homeland to a foreign country merely because the commercial interests of that foreign country.' Australia recently 'streamlined' its laws to make extradition to the U.S. even easier."
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The Long Reach of US Extradition

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  • There's a good dog (Score:5, Insightful)

    by walshy007 (906710) on Saturday October 20, 2012 @01:23AM (#41712761)
    Australia has been the US's lap dog for quite a few decades now. They say jump, we say 'how high?'.
    • by jonwil (467024) on Saturday October 20, 2012 @01:27AM (#41712775)

      ok, so who do I vote for at the next Federal Election that isn't going to bow down to the US and to big US corporations?

      • by Dahamma (304068) on Saturday October 20, 2012 @01:35AM (#41712789)

        Obama.

        • by Anonymous Coward

          The funny thing is Obama corruptly sold the vice presidency to the copyright industry, and many people here, like last time, will completely and utterly ignore that, so the other guy won't win.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          Thank god you told me this...now I'll vote for Romney and the days of our country being the bully-boy enforcer for corporations will vanish!
      • by Anonymous Coward
        It doesn't matter, as long as it's not Labor and not Liberal. It's the only way to send a message that you're not happy with either of them. Sadly, very few people ever do this.
      • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20, 2012 @03:06AM (#41713039)

        Vote Pirate.

        http://pirateparty.org.au

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          Pirate Party Australia currently does not have the number of exclusive members required to register with the Australian Electoral Commission. This status is unlikely to change before the next election.

          We do have a handful of more liberal minor parties that one can vote for, though most Aussies have never heard of them. Two that spring to mind are the Liberal Democratic Party and Australian Sex Party. Of course there is always The Greens, but who wants to undo centuries of human achievement and plunge back i

          • Pirate Party Australia currently does not have the number of exclusive members required to register with the Australian Electoral Commission. This status is unlikely to change before the next election.

            And what can be done about it? Are there any laws about how you are allowed to find new members? The way I see it, it can all be done electronically, and for the digitally disenfrenchised, all you have to do is carry around copies of the party Constitution, the Member Application Form, and envelopes with the address and a stamp.

            NOTE: the party itself should scrutinize it's officers with a fine-tooth comb, one accusation of right-extermism (favourite) or any kind of illegal activity (drunk driving, etc.) and

      • by rmstar (114746) on Saturday October 20, 2012 @07:55AM (#41713899)

        ok, so who do I vote for at the next Federal Election that isn't going to bow down to the US and to big US corporations?

        The big parties everywhere reflect what they can get away with. If you want to change something, you have to infiltrate them. Which means going to local party meetings, arguing, etc. Just hoping that someone with the right ideas comes along so you can vote for him/her does not work.

        Much of what happens depends on someone doing it, and if there is nobody to do it, it just doesn't happen. If you want change - make it happen. Organize anti-extradition rallies, generate awareness, etc.

        Everybody blames the politicians, but you must as well blame the people who expect someone else to fix it for them.

        • by jonwil (467024) on Saturday October 20, 2012 @08:11AM (#41713949)

          Only problem is that its getting harder and harder to organize protests and rallies without being harassed by the cops.
          Its also hard to explain these sorts of issues to normal people or to convince them that its an issue that they need to care about.

          Also, as we have seen many times over the years, just because "the people" want something doesn't mean the government will listen.

          • just because "the people" want something doesn't mean the government will listen.

            I may be a bit cynical here, but I generally think people respond to hype and fall for shite, an example but by no means a good one is just looking at the amount of people who fall for fake fb stories and get all riled up about it when it's not even true. This actually annoys the hell out of me. But I digress...
            The point I was trying to make is just because the people want it doesn't mean it's right...Almost everyone in the US I meet tells me how they get taxed too much when in reality out of the OECD coun

            • by chihowa (366380)

              just because "the people" want something doesn't mean the government will listen.

              I may be a bit cynical here, but I generally think people respond to hype and fall for shite, an example but by no means a good one is just looking at the amount of people who fall for fake fb stories and get all riled up about it when it's not even true. This actually annoys the hell out of me. But I digress...

              The point I was trying to make is just because the people want it doesn't mean it's right...Almost everyone in the US I meet tells me how they get taxed too much when in reality out of the OECD countries they are 4th lowest out of 33 countries OECD Tax rates [slashdot.org] ..just ahead of Mexico, Chile and Turkey..they want to pay less taxes but is that really the right thing for the country? NYT-why US People are wrong on tax rates [slashdot.org]

              I could go on with examples...my daughter wants to eat nothing but cheesecake and coke...doesn't mean it's the right thing for her(or the people)...

              Links are example only to back up my argument that many people really don't know what's good for them, feel free to add counter links as why people know best and I'd be happy to discuss :)

              People think they're taxed too much because they feel an economic squeeze and can point to taxes as a point where their money gets taken away from them. In addition to seeing a big chunk of money go away, they feel they have unmet needs. This generates that, "What the hell are we paying for?" feeling and animosity towards taxes.

              And ultimately, why aren't the people right? Why can't we have cheesecake and coke at every meal? This is our society, and it's hard to believe that the optimal outcome is the system

            • by tqk (413719)

              ... feel free to add counter links as why people know best and I'd be happy to discuss

              No links are necessary. Just re-read the comments up to this point. Hell, just re-read TFS. By my count, we've now heard from posters from at least three countries (USA, Australia, Great Britain) who believe their governments are beholden to special interests, not their electorate or taxpayers, and no-one appears to have any clue as to what to do about it. I'll add Canada for four. Why the hell would you lobby to pay more for clearly dysfunctional democracy? Because they might fix a few potholes whil

      • by nedlohs (1335013)

        That would depend on who's running in your electorate. In the senate you can Langer vote below the line and stop your preference flow when you have exhausted the candidates who won't bow down to the US. For the house you'll have to find some way to rank the candidates that will bow down to the US or reach an agreement with some other people you trust to arrange your preferences so that your votes cancel out once you reach the bad candidates (if there are a lot of house candidates that will take a lot of peo

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by flyneye (84093)

        I was just thinking " Good God! Elect me! I'll fix that crap and so much else to take us back to several states under the Constitution.
        We will start by gutting the Uniform Commercial Code and eliminating anything not Constitutional and patching it with patriotic goodness as we go.
        We will cut the NEED for so much defense spending by pulling troops back from all over the world and concentrate on defending our borders as prescribed Constitutionally. No more world cop for corporate interests.
        We will eliminate t

        • by tqk (413719)

          You'd have my vote, if I weren't on the wrong side of the 49th parallel.

      • by drsmithy (35869)

        ok, so who do I vote for at the next Federal Election that isn't going to bow down to the US and to big US corporations?

        Greens or Democrats.

    • by mrmeval (662166)

      These countries need to keep stroking US cock or they'll pay a terrible price. What that price is no one knows. Maybe we'll be stern with them. Maybe there's some secret orbital bombardment system us peons don't know about. Maybe these non-US countries need a spinal carbonate infusion. I'm an America, I am not the US and I find it tragic that so many countries kowtow to US. Get a spine. Where is the fun in ruling the world if everyone does your work for you? As an American I prefer insanely fierce competit

      • by MROD (101561)
        The main chain the the US have to pull is economic.

        Basically, if the US decides that a country should suffer its roth then all it needs to do is put them on the "don't trade without a special license" list or require companies who sell to the federal government not to trade with that country. You'd be surprised at how effective that would be in hitting the economy of the target country, especially if it's a developed, industrialised one.
        • The problem is that you can only do that once: when you do it, pain ensues. If the companies/economy recovers, they don't need you anymore. Also, there might be retaliation: when negociating with the EU, the US basicaly does as it is told. Which apparently leaves the US negociators flustered and confused.

          Which matters little, because the same lobbyists are pushing in the same direction both side of the Atlantic, so there are no real disagreements anyway.

    • Australia has been the US's lap dog for quite a few decades now. They say jump, we say 'how high?'.

      ... Then I look at you crosswise and say: "I said JUMP, not Ask Questions!"

  • Pleb? Who cares? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by whoever57 (658626) on Saturday October 20, 2012 @01:24AM (#41712765) Journal

    What do the elites care if a few plebs get sent abroad?

    Mods: Before you mod me down, google "plebgate" or "pleb uk"

    • by MrL0G1C (867445)

      So he swore at some police, like so fucking what? They can be obnoxious overbearing officious twats, especially when it comes to cyclists.

      I really don't see why he's resigning. The current crop of Tories (UK gov't party) are all rich and I expect they all think they are above 'the commoners'. Perhaps this is it, he's not allowed to say what the Tories think of the voters. Not that I like Tories, they're ****s.

  • by cold fjord (826450) on Saturday October 20, 2012 @01:25AM (#41712767)

    Nothing in this discussion will be alarmist or overstated in any way.

  • Bribery (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mbone (558574) on Saturday October 20, 2012 @01:42AM (#41712811)

    Countries allow this sort of abuse because the right people (or entities) have been bribed. Of that, you can be sure. The real question is, is it legal bribery (AKA "foreign aid," or other forms of government money), quasi-legal bribery ($13,000 sex parties paid for by lobbyists, anyone? [inquisitr.com]), or the good, old-fashioned, illegal sort ?

  • They told me if I voted for McCain, we'd see corporations exerting even more control over federal laws... and they were right!

  • 1. "Welcome to America, we hope you'll enjoy your stay in one of our excessively numerous prisons."
    2. "I say, mates, fuck America! We don't have to take their crap! Those yanks don't control us! Do we stand for freedom, or do we stand for cowardice? Now, who's joining me on this kamikaze mission?!"
  • This is, (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Truekaiser (724672) on Saturday October 20, 2012 @02:18AM (#41712911)

    One of the main reasons why the united states is not well liked by a lot of countries.
    Think for a moment, imagine say, China, Russia, or say Norway, bullied its way into other countries in such a way that non-citizens of these countries could be 'deported' to them to face punishment. Punishment for laws they did not know about, or are not against the law in their own countries but against the law there.

    • Re:This is, (Score:5, Informative)

      by Genda (560240) <mariet@@@got...net> on Saturday October 20, 2012 @02:45AM (#41712983) Journal

      Friend, the Americans aren't too happy with America right now. What they're (American Corporations) doing to your country they're doing vigorously all over America, and they're a damn site closer here, so if its chafing you, its frigging killing us.

      This strikes me as a powerful indication of the state of the world. The Nation state is in decline. The multi national corporation is calling the tune, and the laws are now being adjusted to ensure that any infraction against the all mighty corporation anywhere on the planet is dealt with swiftly and with overwhelming force. The new terrorist is anyone who isn't consuming his proper allotment and paying his bills. Now might be a good time to take our world back.

      • Now might be a good time to take our world back.

        They've got you outvoted, outnumbered and outgunned which means you lose. Thanks for playing!

      • Re:This is, (Score:4, Insightful)

        by sociocapitalist (2471722) on Saturday October 20, 2012 @03:46AM (#41713151)

        Friend, the Americans aren't too happy with America right now. What they're (American Corporations) doing to your country they're doing vigorously all over America, and they're a damn site closer here, so if its chafing you, its frigging killing us.

        This strikes me as a powerful indication of the state of the world. The Nation state is in decline. The multi national corporation is calling the tune, and the laws are now being adjusted to ensure that any infraction against the all mighty corporation anywhere on the planet is dealt with swiftly and with overwhelming force. The new terrorist is anyone who isn't consuming his proper allotment and paying his bills. Now might be a good time to take our world back.

        The nation states where freedom and privacy used to mean more than they do today are in decline.

        The nation states where freedom and privacy mean nothing are not in decline...they are growing in power.

        Unfortunately we in the developed countries that are in decline are not unhappy enough in large enough numbers to effectuate change at this time. Only when the balance of unemployed vs. owners reaches critical mass will change become possible.

        • Re:This is, (Score:5, Informative)

          by VortexCortex (1117377) <VortexCortex@nOs ... t-retrograde.com> on Saturday October 20, 2012 @06:48AM (#41713683)

          Unfortunately we in the developed countries that are in decline are not unhappy enough in large enough numbers to effectuate change at this time.

          Unfortunate indeed. FTUSDI: [ushistory.org]

          [...] whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

          What's that they say of the cyclic nature of history? I put it to you that it's not enough to know history to avoid repeating it; We must also be mindful of it always. Otherwise, in the end there will be lots of, "sorry, but you leave us no choice" on both sides of the double edged sword of power.

          • When the government violates the people's rights, insurrection is, for the people and for each portion of the people, the most sacred of the rights and the most indispensable of duties.

            Gilbert du Motier, marquis de Lafayette, 1790.

          • What's that they say of the cyclic nature of history? I put it to you that it's not enough to know history to avoid repeating it; We must also be mindful of it always. Otherwise, in the end there will be lots of, "sorry, but you leave us no choice" on both sides of the double edged sword of power.

            History is already repeating and now we have to continue the change to completion as we have lost any sense of balance between right and left, between rich and poor, between the educated and the ignorant, between the manipulators and the manipulated.

            It is too easy to imagine a not too distant future where the wealthy and powerful, become nobility, have control of the jobs, the police and the military to a point where the rest of society will no longer be able to achieve change.

      • And on that note: Prisons in the US are major business. And what do you do when you've mostly saturated your home market (with the US leading the world in incarceration)? You begin extraditing people from other countries.

        U.S.A! Number 1!

      • by indytx (825419)

        The multi national corporation is calling the tune, and the laws are now being adjusted to ensure that any infraction against the all mighty corporation anywhere on the planet is dealt with swiftly and with overwhelming force.

        Hey!!! Corporations are people, too!

      • by baffled (1034554)

        Now might be a good time to take our world back.

        Take it back, indeed. The corporations aren't headless monsters, they do have directors and motives. Any given corporation can be targeted, and its' actions affected with the right approach. This could involve piles of cash to buy your way in, or bending motives in a field-centric way. Either/both avenues can be followed simply with hordes of average-joe participants.

        An organization of the willing, coordinating efforts, identifying & focusing on the most critical/effectual corporations, would seem t

      • by metlin (258108)

        Let me introduce you to the British East India Company. Sound familiar?

        That's right, the corporations have been calling the shots for over 400 years now. Nothing has changed.

      • by tqk (413719)

        The new terrorist is anyone who isn't consuming his proper allotment and paying his bills.

        Hmm. That describes me at the moment, and with the first snow of a Canadian winter falling now, I might welcome being renditioned to Cuba.

    • by Darinbob (1142669)

      On the other hand, I suspect the US is doing this more often because countries keep complying. So the US pushes a little further, other countries comply a little more, repeat.

    • by lxs (131946)

      I don't live in the US, and I'm not a US citizen, but I don't blame the US for trying to get people extradited. I do however blame my own government for not properly protecting its citizens by complying too easily with every request.

      • by drinkypoo (153816)

        I don't live in the US, and I'm not a US citizen, but I don't blame the US for trying to get people extradited.

        Well, you should. It's part of our prisons-for-profit program, and you should be concerned about that.

    • by gmuslera (3436)
      Why not put as example countries where religion and culture is different enough to yours to consider crimes things that you consider normal? What if you have sex with your sleeping wife and get deported to Sweden? Or women extradited to some muslim countries because had sex before or outside marriage? Probably there are a lot of "outrageous" laws out there, that you would rebel if get deported because of them. In the other side, being imprisoned and deported for copying bytes of information, not hurting (sp
  • uber lords (Score:5, Interesting)

    by harvey the nerd (582806) on Saturday October 20, 2012 @02:23AM (#41712929)
    Those who have already lived in US sponsored dictatorships may better realize that the US government is already far more dangerous than the Nazis in terms of surveillance capability and raw power. So far, too few US citizens seem to recognize that millions of people suffered, or died, in a blatantly illegal, ruinously expensive war with Iraq that appears to be preparatory for domestic use. At least realize enough to stop it, permanently.
    • Re:uber lords (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Genda (560240) <mariet@@@got...net> on Saturday October 20, 2012 @02:55AM (#41713011) Journal

      Oh no, There are a huge number of American's who are perfectly clear what's going on, and we have no illusions to what our nation has evolved into over the last 30 years, though as you suggest a vast mouth breathing, knuckle dragging majority has voted for its own slow motion suicide. As Mussolini said, fascism is the corporate state, and we are now all becoming pawns in a global power grab by monied interests. Strangely, we fought WWII to stop the tyranny of fascism, while at the very same monied interests here invested in the Nazi's and laundered their money in the U.S., England and Switzerland. The bankers and CEOs are the threat to liberty, justice and the advancement of the human condition. Perhaps it is time for a new fight for the dignity of the human spirit.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by mdragan (1166333)
        Maybe it's time for capitalism and the free market thinkers to acknowledge the fact that corporations have as much power to destroy the balance of the free market, as the governments. A corporation is a quasi monopoly.
        Or we could start by saying that temporary monopolies like copyright and patents were never meant to enter the hands of powerful entities, such as corporations. The potential for abuse is too great. The copyright or patent should end as soon as the artist or inventor has been payed by selling
    • You can never stop this kind of thing permanently. The price of freedom, after all...

    • by Osgeld (1900440)

      So far, too few US citizens seem to care

      FTFY

      • So far, too few US citizens seem to care

        The vast majority of them are fine, hardworking & God-fearing folks.

        They have nothing to fear from measures like the Patriot Act; it's only bad people - tairsts, comnusts and hermersexuls - that will have their freedom curtailed..

  • I totally misread "A Former NSW Chief Judge" as "A Former NSFW Chief Judge".
    I need a break from the internet.
    • by dbIII (701233)

      I totally misread "A Former NSW Chief Judge" as "A Former NSFW Chief Judge".

      We had a few scandals about the private lives of some of them so it can be one and the same thing :) The judges in question were entirely professional at work so it should have been irrelevant, but the press likes a scandal.

      Meanwhile, things are looking up in the Philippines due to talks between MILF and the government which could lead to the end of their conflict.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20, 2012 @03:36AM (#41713131)

    ...but I'll bite.

    You can have either three* economies, in today's world, and still have a country:
    Bronze/aluminum age -- agrarian
    Iron age -- manufacturing
    Silicon age -- information tech and design

    The highest standards of living are in IT economies. Ask yourself this: do you want to live in bronze age India? Of course not. You'd rather live in iron age Brazil, or, even better, siicon age Boston. Most world leaders understand this, and that is why they are cool with draconian copyright laws. And in fact, if you protect innovation abroad, you in theory protect innovation at home, as well, and create the possibility of a local market. Most 2nd world countries WANT to become like America. They WANT an innovative and productive economy -- and that is why they support strong IP laws -- to hopefully boost their own economy into a knowledge-based economy, and out of 2nd or 3rd world stagnation.

    The sad thing is though, innovation doesn't just come from a good marketplace. It comes from an intelligent, inspired, hopeful, dreaming, confident and curious populace, with time and ways to experiment. Innovation is no longer happening in America because we are not confident anymore. We are dumbed down, crushed and we have no more dreams. College was our only formal gateway to a better life, but that has suffered the fate of most monopolies and destroyed the market by overgouging consumers. Increased corporatism and restrictive patent laws have hurt individual inventors and made college a requirement for any white collar job, due to the fact that only big companies with many lawyers on retainer can survive amidst these insane IP laws. Those few big companies are flooded with applicants, and only distinguish between candidates by education level (read, debt/wealth background). In addition to a dumbing down college tax** and a noncompetitive marketplace (which rewards suing your competitor instead of inventing/refining a product), we also have the dilemma that there are fewer and fewer hobbyists being creative with stuff. Increasingly, everything is locked down, and single use. Even our water bottles are stamped "do not reuse." Not to mention the TV instant gratification culture which discourages critical intellectual activity, like reading a book instead of buying things from commercials.

    So, no, wannabe 1st world countries, please do not copy us. We are not a knowledge economy, we are a consumer economy. We no longer create much, anymore. Yes, protecting IP is a good idea. But like anything else, too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. We need sane copyright and patent laws, not an elimination of them all together.
    (And we also need local manufacturing, and less corporate litigation -- and less big business domination, period.)

    *I'm not including stone age hunter-gather societies, because a) they got their butts kicked by everyone else, and lost almost all their sovereignty, and b) no one really wants to go back to the stone age, and there isn't enough spare flora and fauna to support that move, anyway.

    ** College has basically become a tax which everyone who wants to get ahead pays. And frankly, it is so insanely bad, that it's aproaching indentured servitude. Many first world people are actually advocating returning to a bronze age civilization, because the american college-industrial complex is so crushingly destructive, restrictive, and empoverishing.

    • by west (39918)

      I'm sorry, but I have to call into question your claim that America isn't innovative any more.

      While the rest of the world is *gradually* catching up, which dilutes the appearance of American innovation, there's still a huge amount of research done in America. More to the point, if you start looking deeply into almost any industry, you'll find that it's massively changed over the last 10-20 years, and mostly a result of American innovations.

      Farming, manufacturing, chemistry, medical advances, business proce

  • by Anonymous Coward

    The USA is an empire with vassal states all over the world, but it's about to collapse just like the Roman empire, and for the same reason. An empire is expensive, and the will of the American people to maintain the empire is fading away.

  • If it is a Muzzie terrorist like Abu Hamsa it takes years. If it is a banker working in London who should be tried in the UK whooshh .... he's gone.
  • Planet USA (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward

    ... Australia recently 'streamlined' its laws ...

    Slashdot has reported several extraditions to the USA from the UK where, essentially, US law has jurisdiction in the England.

    This follows decades of preferential treatment for US interests: noticebly no-tax laws and the AUS-USA FTA. It is little suprise one Australian leader was called an 'arse-licker' for getting chummy with president GW Bush.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 20, 2012 @08:27AM (#41713993)

    Copyright infringement is being prosecuted in the country where the server is... Extradition
    Alleged spying is prosecuted where the hacked (cracked) machine/network was (Gary McKinnon, etc.)... Extradition
    University must be accredited in a state (Free Online Education Unwelcome In Minnesota)... Being on an out-of-state server does not matter
    Parallel Imports not allowed (must buy songs for .99 Euro and not overseas for .99 $)... Not allowed to use a global market

    Somehow everything is turned in a way that does not benefit the common people. We should finally once and for all declare a world-wide decree that either you are on foreign soil when you use a specific server or that you are on home turf and the location of the keyboard counts. Then it would be clear what laws apply. The current situation is a complete mess.

  • Are all the cases that people are kidnapped in this way for actually crimes at all outside the Corporate States of America?

  • by gnasher719 (869701) on Saturday October 20, 2012 @10:13AM (#41714313)
    Just saying: According to German law (for example), a crime happens in the place where it has an effect, not in the place where someone took an illegal action. These are often the same places. But for example, when sending a letter bomb the crime takes place where the bomb explodes, not where it was built or sent from. Hacking from a flat in London into US military computers takes place in the USA. Distributing copyrighted materials in the USA from a server somewhere else takes place in the USA.
    • This is a principle which probably needs to be revisited. There are lots of things that go wrong with that. For example, if I start sending anti-Islamic propaganda to computers in Saudia-Arabia, is it reasonable to treat it as a crime? What if I then go to Malaysia or somewhere else that has an extradition treaty with the Saudis?

      Another example; if someone orders or is involved in child abuse in another country, that should be, and often is, a crime they can be punished for in their home country even

  • ..the destruction of your sovereignty, and that means destruction of your rights?

"Just think of a computer as hardware you can program." -- Nigel de la Tierre

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