Senators To Unveil the 'Ex-Patriot Act' To Respond To Facebook's Saverin 716
An anonymous reader writes "Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., has a status update for Facebook co-founder Eduardo Saverin: Stop attempting to dodge your taxes by renouncing your U.S. citizenship or never come to back to the U.S. again." See this earlier story on Saverin's plan to make the leap out of the U.S. tax system.
Why is the solution to every problem (Score:4, Insightful)
A) More government/laws
B) More Taxes
C) More War
D) All of the above
Not Just Saverin (Score:5, Insightful)
So like the Soviet Union? (Score:5, Insightful)
Like the Soviet Union where you can't leave?
Or like Nazi Germany, where you can leave, but not bring any of your valuables?
Re:Not Just Saverin (Score:4, Insightful)
No, they're not. Stop the nonsense false equivocation and handwavy accusations at "politicians" as an anonymous but easily vilified class.
The nerve (Score:1, Insightful)
Why doesn't it read... (Score:5, Insightful)
Senators to drastically simplify the tax system and eliminate loopholes?
Instead, these two people are going to overreact to the publicity received by this particular individual and create a bill to address him and the people like him (I believe under a couple thousand people over the last few years). It will do little to impact the nation as a whole.
Imagine if they were to put their effort into fixing the root of the problem...
Re:Not Just Saverin (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of them are lawyers. There's an entire field of law dedicated to tax avoidance. Gaming the rules is what they do. Whining that someone else is doing the same is remarkably disengenuous.
Sour Grapes (Score:5, Insightful)
Capital gains are already due when you renounce your citizenship. Placing the burden of proof on someone to prove they aren't renouncing for tax purposes is ridiculous, and possibly unconstitutional. Why would I need a "valid" reason to renounce my citizenship? And adding a clause to bar the person from reentry for life is just petty. Blaming people for leaving when we have laws and policies they disagree with is pointing the finger in the wrong direction. Either we don't want those people here anyway, or else we're the problem.
I have nothing but contempt for tax cheats but (Score:5, Insightful)
Expatriates from every country have family, friends, and historical ties to the country they came from. Denying visitation for that reason is morally wrong. Moreover I'm universally opposed to bills of attainder and ex-post-facto laws. They were stupid and contemptible back during the ACORN stupidity, and they're still an unreasonable abuse of legislative power now. If this act applies in any way to Saverin, it would be an undermining of the rule of law.
Re:So like the Soviet Union? (Score:2, Insightful)
It's not about preventing people from leaving, it's about preventing people from leaving solely because they're doing it as a way to cheat the system that is partially responsible for where they are in the first place.
Re:I understand, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Doing it as an individual is novel. However, it is a very common case for companies to do this - take all the benefits of incorporating in one place, then set up shell corporations to book all your profits elsewhere wherever taxes (and services, but it doesn't matter) are minimal. But then when somebody infringes their rights, they come crying to the powerful government where they incorporated (which actually has expensive stuff like courts and diplomats and armies to impose a global Intellectual Property regime... It's especially common among high-tech companies.) So if you include that, it is actually a large issue.
I'm not too comfortable with this particular law for some reason. I think I'd rather see nations work together to close the inter-government loopholes in corporate taxes instead.
Re:The nerve (Score:0, Insightful)
He went into it knowing the tax burden, and benefited from the stability of an economy from which he now plans to thieve. Stick your self-righteousness up your ass... you know as well as Saverin exactly what he's doing.
Re:The nerve (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:The nerve (Score:4, Insightful)
Because he didn't make any of that money based on Government-subsidized infrastructure, did he? Like, for example, the protocols and research necessary to create the Internet?
This is like someone making shedloads of money with a trucking company, and then doing everything possible to not pay for roads.
Re:Not Just Saverin (Score:5, Insightful)
I definitely agree our tax system is junk and should not have so many loopholes that are exploitable by huge corporations and the wealthy but I really can't fault anyone for doing whatever they can as long as they are acting within the rules.
Nation of immigrants (Score:5, Insightful)
As a nation of immigrants, I sometimes wish say China or another major country would try to pull the same thing with their citizens who have emigrated to the U.S. We would hear all kinds of politicians going high and right about human rights and violations of national sovereignty, etc.
One could argue that what FaceBook co-founder Eduardo Saverin did was unethical, but despite all of that, the right to emigrate and ex-patriate is a basic human right that is enshrined in U.S. and in international law. Punishing individuals who exercise a basic human right is by definition tyranny.
Re:Why is the solution to every problem (Score:4, Insightful)
Because of whom you are asking. When you ask the government to solve your problem, the government can only offer solutions it can implement - the ones in its job description. That job includes passing laws, collecting taxes, and maintaining the military. So why are you surprized when the help it offers you includes doing its job?
Re:So like the Soviet Union? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not seeing a distinction there. That's just a mealy mouthed way of saying "we want to take all your shit, and we got guns so pay up".
Re:Tax rates (Score:5, Insightful)
Investment income is the reward you get by risking your money by investing in a business. Investing in a business gives them capital to buy assets and hire employees.
It is not something that should be discouraged, unless your myopia extends to economics.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, the nerve. (Score:2, Insightful)
Who puts Saverin's house out when it is burning out of control?
Who paves the roads and repairs the bridges that Saverin's luxury cars utilize every day?
Who delivers the mail that Saverin relies on for his business and home operations?
Who manages the pipes and treatment of the shit that Saverin dumps down his toilets every day?
Who patrols the streets that Saverin lives and works on, protecting him from crime?
Who watches and protects the nation of America when terrorists and other countries seek to destroy Saverin's way of life, property, and business interests?
In Saverin's mind (and yours) all of these are freebies.. entitlements. No responsibility to maintain them whatsoever.
People like Saverin are half of what's wrong with America today. I will be glad when we are one less "Saverin citizen" when he departs for Singapore. We don't need trash like that here.
Re:So like the Soviet Union? (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it is method of saying you used the things our taxes paid for to get rich now pay it back or GTFO and don't come back.
Do you think a welfare recipient who wins the lottery should be able to avoid paying back what they took by leaving?
Re:Why is the solution to every problem (Score:2, Insightful)
Just a hop, skip and jump away from building a WALL armed with "shoot to kill" orders on anyone who tries to leave??? Wake up America, the Democrats are NOT the Dems of yesteryear. They have morphed into tyrant wannabes.
Re:So like the Soviet Union? (Score:4, Insightful)
Pretty much the opposite:
You can leave, and you can take all of your valuables out of the jurisdiction of the United States, and give up your obligations and rights as a citizen, but once you do, you can't come back or bring any of the valuables back.
Re:I understand, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
don't we have much bigger things to worry about? This isn't a common case....well, it might be if things continue the way they are going.
From the article, "Last year 1,700 people renounced their U.S. citizenship." YES, for a nation of only 313 million, 1,700 people renouncing their citizenship in a single year is a major problem. I for one am glad our Senate is on it.
Re:I have nothing but contempt for tax cheats but (Score:4, Insightful)
Which is why this bill won't go anywhere. Hell, it hasn't even been introduced to committee according to the article. I agree with you that a bill designed as a spiteful measure has no place in our code of laws.
Re:I understand, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly. All the massive companies have their main corporate body elsewhere in a tax havens, and you get bet the main shareholder have their wealth set up in a similar manner.
Perhaps the politicians would be better off serving the public and not setting up laws to facilitate the above for a quick back-hand in their own self interest.
Re:Yeah, the nerve. (Score:5, Insightful)
>>Who puts Saverin's house out when it is burning out of control?
Singapore.
>>Who paves the roads and repairs the bridges that Saverin's luxury cars utilize every day?
Singapore.
>>Who delivers the mail that Saverin relies on for his business and home operations?
Singapore.
>>Who manages the pipes and treatment of the shit that Saverin dumps down his toilets every day?
Singapore.
>>Who patrols the streets that Saverin lives and works on, protecting him from crime?
Singapore.
>>Who watches and protects the nation of America when terrorists and other countries seek to destroy Saverin's way of life, property, and business interests?
America, but he lives in Singapore and has for three years so he couldn't care less.
Re:Exactly backwards (Score:2, Insightful)
Ah Capitalism, How Sweet the Sting (Score:5, Insightful)
Because he didn't make any of that money based on Government-subsidized infrastructure, did he? Like, for example, the protocols and research necessary to create the Internet?
All valid points. However, I am a little bewildered as to why you have stood idly by whilst China conducts massive commerce over the same infrastructure with money actually leaving the USA and no sales tax being paid on those transactions to the American government. Where is your outrage there? Not only is that like a truck drive avoiding paying for roads, it's like a truck driver driving your money away on those same roads. Why is this not outrageous?
This is like someone making shedloads of money with a trucking company, and then doing everything possible to not pay for roads.
Look, my initial reaction to this story is identical to yours. I see this guy go to Harvard, reap the benefits of being in a safe country with tax dollars that create the ecosystem for something like Facebook to flourish and then when it comes to his turn to put back into the system, he kites off. Well, the story isn't that simple, he was born in Sao Paulo [wikipedia.org] and probably is one of the people the US has brain drained from India, Brazil, etc in order to bolster our own economy. On top of that, Facebook is a global phenomena by now with serious activity world-wide. So, you know, I don't feel so bad that now Singapore or where ever he takes up residence has "reverse brain drained" the US in this instance due to "steep" taxes. I'd be more upset if Zuckerberg did it but in the end, this single IPO is probably trivial compared to every company [slashdot.org] maneuvering "sales" to Ireland and the Netherlands to avoid paying billions of dollars to the United States each year. This is a one time thing and I think the "Ex-Patriot Act" is garbage when they should be targeting the systematic avoidance done by almost every company that can claim international sales. Poor poor Eduardo, he was just being an efficient little Capitalist.
With corporate person-hood becoming a major problem, will the "Ex-Patriot Act" apply to these tax evasion strategies of which everyone is guilty?
It's not to avoid taxes... (Score:5, Insightful)
Schumer - my senator, unfortunately - is just grandstanding, once again, the pissbag...
Re:Why is the solution to every problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Tax rates (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not a matter of not giving investors incentives. It's a matter of giving them reasonable incentives, then them turning around, giving you the middle finger, and not paying their fair share after being giving major tax breaks and government protection.
Just because you're wealthy or a large corporation doesn't mean you get to skimp on your share of the check when it's your turn to pay up.
Re:I understand, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
I find it quite bad if the Senate is actually doing this in response to one guy leaving. The constitution offers us 2 key protections that I wouldn't want to live without:
* No ex post facto laws.
* No bills of attainder
In other words, the congress is forbidden from using their power to make laws to punish people they don't like especially after the fact. That leads to the worst sort of tyranny. Any law crafted to target one individual (or a very smal group) is effectively a bill of attainder, even if it doesn't mention them by name.
Re:So like the Soviet Union? (Score:4, Insightful)
We should be targeting the unemployed, for not paying the employment and income taxes they would be paying if they had jobs.
Sure - take nothing from nothing, and what do you get?
Seriously, though, what are you suggesting?
For that matter, we should target the nearly 50% of the American public that does not pay income taxes at all (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/28/46-percent-of-americans-e_n_886293.html).
You ever stop to ask yourself why so many people "don't pay income taxes?" Hint: It's not because they're sheltering their income in off-shore accounts.
Re:Why is the solution to every problem (Score:2, Insightful)
Yup, lots to be proud of there.
Re:Why is the solution to every problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why is the solution to every problem (Score:5, Insightful)
The other guys?
It wasn't Bush was asked Congress to add 2 sentences to the NDAA giving the executive branch power to arrest and detain Americans w/o a right to trial. That was Obama. And with 60% (house) and 90% (Senate) of democrats voting for it (House).
Let's face it..... both parties are pricks. It's about time the Republicans and Democrats merge into one party (since they act basically alike), and a new 2nd party arise so we can have some real choice.
Re:I have to ask (Score:2, Insightful)
If I've ever seen an "I'm secretly jealous and very mad" post before, this was certainly it.
Re:I understand, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
They aren't doing it to get Saverin after the fact.
They're doing it to make goddamn sure that nobody else gets any similar ideas.
Rather like the Berlin Wall, or other forms of capital controls. If Atlas starts to shrug, you chain him down.
Re:Why is the solution to every problem (Score:5, Insightful)
I didn't ask for the government's help.
I dunno. I could believe that if you don't use government-provided roads, depend on government-provided police to keep the burglars away while you sleep, depend on the government to keep the [insert latest boogieman country here] from invading, depend on corporations that only exist because of government charters, use government to protect you from the most egregious abuses and thefts of those corporations, provide a money supply so you don't have to pay your ISP with cabbages and eggs, keep the mining company just uphill from you from building crappy earthen dams that will maybe collapse and wipe you off of your land, and depend on the government to keep melamine out of the milk you buy. And don't depend on government to allow you to "own" the patch of gawdforsaken land on the mountaintop that you live on and never leave.
Re:Why is the solution to every problem (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't smoke... (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't smoke, don't feed the homeless, don't pick which lightbulb you like, etc., etc.
Your own food is too fatty, salty, etc.
Liberals don't believe in a right to privacy except for the sexual sphere of life. They are busybodies par excellance.
Re:Why is the solution to every problem (Score:1, Insightful)
You live here, you benefit from it, just like everyone else. The first-world manner in which you fucking live is directly due to government involvement. Private business doesn't give a shit about anything other than profit margins. Take Sierra Leone for example, how many billions come out of that country in the form of diamonds? And they can't even adequately feed the people doing the digging (slaves is a better word for what they are)...
You cannot have civilized society without a strong central government. You can only have lawless, Libertarian paradises where no one takes care of anyone else so all but a select few end up being exploited by the wealthy and powerful. I refuse to live that way, as do most people that have actually experienced a first-world life...
Re:I understand, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
If he gave up his citizenship, he is no longer a citizen of the US and gets none of it's protections. He is not being charged with a crime after the fact, he is just not getting back into the country he renounced.
Re:I understand, but... (Score:2, Insightful)
If a guy leaves because he has to pay $67 million after earning $4 billion then he doesn't deserve citizenship.
It was the 'system' who allowed him to earn that money in the first place.
Wait. The 'system' allowed him to earn that money? You mean the 'government', right? They don't do shit to help people earn money. They do everything they can to take earned money away. Why else would they be after him and threatening to end people's citizenship because of this? They didn't get 'their cut'? Sounds more like the mafia than a government.
Re:So like the Soviet Union? (Score:4, Insightful)
As long as welfare is a handout and not a loan, I think welfare recipients should be under no obligation to "pay back" what they "took", even if they later make a lot of money in some way that you seem to find unjust yet legal. Their benefits aren't tied to some formula of taxes paid before going on welfare, and their taxes afterward shouldn't be tied to some formula dependent on how much they were paid by welfare.
"Passive-agressive tax system" isn't really the phrase I'm looking for, but there seems to me something morally wrong about holding someone in debt to society for a handout (not a government loan).
Perhaps there should be, in addition to welfare, a system of zero-interest government loans for people in need. However, I think it's a step backwards to turn welfare into a loan system.
Re:I have nothing but contempt for tax cheats but (Score:5, Insightful)
Except that it IS a bill of attainder. It's specifically targeting one individual a senator disagrees with. I'm extremely liberal and have a huge amount of distaste for this kind of evasion, but choosing to punish a choice after its made is wrong. It's absolutely wrong, regardless of whether it's the revocation of a privilege or assigning of a punishment, it falls into the category of judging via law.
No person should EVER have to fear that a choice they are making will be illegal in the future. One is accountable only to the laws that exist when decisions are made and one's own ethical principles. Saverin has no ethical principles; that's still his choice.
Re:I understand, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Taxes are for the poor and the ignorant. The tax laws are written by wealthy law-degree wielding politicians and their corporate campaign contributors. There are no "accidental" loopholes. If you are middle class, live frugally all your life, you are sooner or later going to be in for a rude awakening. If you are an emerging rap star, athlete, lottery winner, or you inherit your great uncle's farm, you are going to get nailed. But if you come from wealth, or if you come into wealth through scheming, nepotism, and bribery, then you likely know how important it is to have a good wealth management company, tax advisor, and asset protection attorney. This is why you read about rich people declaring bankruptcy and then buying out some multi-million dollar company in just the next year. At some point your wealth grows to such an extreme point that you must protect it from the greedy masses of democratic societies. This is the world where you
incorporate in the Cook Islands
bank in the Cayman Islands
maintain residence in Monaco
maintain citizenship in Switzerland
register your yacht in the Bahamas
spend most of your time traveling the Caribbean and Pacific Islands
It doesn't hurt to befriend a lonely and isolated dictator or two.
Re:I understand, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
That said, I'm pretty sure this isn't going anywhere. Republicans, for one, will oppose it just because it comes from Democrats.
Or maybe the fact that it will cost more money to get this law written, debated, passed and enforced than we would see from it. Or is this more about envy because someone is making more money and not paying taxes on it?
Re:Tax rates (Score:4, Insightful)
Investment income is the reward you get by risking your money by investing in a business. Investing in a business gives them capital to buy assets and hire employees.
It is not something that should be discouraged, unless your myopia extends to economics.
But the real engine for progress is work, not investment money. Capital by itself doesn't do anything without somebody to use it. However, the people actually doing the work are taxed more on their income than the people who provide the capital, even though they're the actual real creators.
Nobody denies investment is necessary. I don't however think it's economically or morally superior to live from investments rather that do good honest work. That's why I think taxing income from investment less than income from work is a bad moral choice, and provides all the wrong incentives for society. I mean, what would happen if capital income would be taxed equally to income from work, or perhaps even more? Would the rich stop investing, would they be, as you say, "discouraged"? This won't happen, or they'll lose their capital to inflation. What will happen is more money would go to the real creators, who would then be able to create more - or maybe some of the formerly idle rich would have to enter the work market themselves and actually become productive. Either way the society would be better off, so I can't really see where the bad part is.
Re:I understand, but... (Score:2, Insightful)
If you think the government deserves credit for "allowing" someone to create a successful business, you're a lost cause.
It takes a very small government indeed to create the basic social order needed for a business to operate, and indeed that's a vasnishingly small portion (measured monitarily) of what our government does. Our government is mostly a pension plan with a military, and everything else it does is in the small "other" slice in the pie chart.
Sure, a few pennies from every dollar in taxes go towards the stuff you're talking about but it's the other 80+ cents per dollar that people are complaining about when they complain about taxes. It takes willful ignorance these days not to realize this.
I'm not the GP, but I guess you're right. I think your assertion is crazy. Remember we are talking about Facebook, which requires the internet to exist in the first. The internet is one of those projects created by throwing ridiculous amounts of money at the military. And that's not to mention all of the infrastructure and education funding which meant Facebook actually had employees and customers.
Feel free to run your businesses entirely in Sri Lanka, but in the real world, governments are useful and taxes are needed to fund them.
Re:Why is the solution to every problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I understand, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
It means no high fund to fix the interstate network's bridges (yep, those states are going to get right on top of that one)
Why the fuck do you think the states have zero money to tackle any of this crumbling infrastructure?
It's the same reason people don't have any money to start businesses, businesses don't have money to hire people, etc:
THE GOVERNMENT KEEPS TAKING IT ALL FROM THEM
Re:Why is the solution to every problem (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah, kinda like how the U.S. is not so bad "compared to" dictatorships like China, Iran, etc.
Texas is actually one of the worst examples of tyranny in our country. Try rolling through Tyler, TX with a pound of weed in your trunk doing 5 over the speed limit, while black, and wearing a "Fuck the Police" shirt, and get back to me on how this state is a shining example of tolerance and love.
Re:Don't smoke... (Score:5, Insightful)
The words "liberal" and "conservative" represent a false dichotomy, promoted by your masters in the news media, and parroted by clueless morons such as yourself who are baffled by the idea that the world does not exist in black and white, but only shades of gray.
In other words, you're a tool.