Database and IP Records Tie Election Fraud To Canada's Ruling Conservatives 257
choongiri writes "Canada's election fraud scandal continues to unfold. Elections Canada just matched the IP address used to set up thousands of voter suppression robocalls to one used by a Conservative Party operative, and a comparison of call records found a perfect match between the illegal calls, and records of non-supporters in the Conservative Party's CIMS voter tracking database, as well as evidence access logs may have been tampered with. Meanwhile, legal challenges to election results are underway in seven ridings, and an online petition calling for an independent public inquiry into the crisis has amassed over 44,000 signatures. The Conservative Party still maintains their innocence, calling it a baseless smear campaign."
Baseless? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like there's a lot of evidence to the contrary. At some point, it just stops being a coincidence.
Whatever happened in Ohio? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm surprised to see this kinda thing happening to our neighbors to the north. Compared to the cesspool that is American politics, I thought Canadian politics were squeaky clean. That's why I've always thought it would be a good place to run to (as James Cameron has evidently decided) in case the far right kooks took over.
Speaking of which, what ever happened to the investigations into Diebold and the voting machines in Ohio (and maybe more states)? Wasn't there enough evidence to start a criminal investigation? Or did it just fizzle because nobody cared?
Where's the outrage?
Well, isn't that interesting. (Score:4, Insightful)
The Conservatives engage in massive election fraud, while their co-ideologues south of the border, the Republicans, make political hay with completely baseless complaints of widespread voter fraud. If I were a suspicious, conspiracy-minded sort, I might think there was some sort of connection. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain." But surely this kind of thing is just a coincidence ... right?
Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's because the same bastards that control US politics have shifted up into Canada as they have almost completely looted the US.
Now it's our turn.
How about that! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Baseless? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like there's a lot of evidence to the contrary. At some point, it just stops being a coincidence.
We passed the point of coincidence and delved deep into blatant corruption in the US years ago. Doesn't surprise me that it has flowed outside of our borders. After all, we don't punish corruption. We reward it.
The problem is not discovering what is wrong. The real problem is finding you have no control to do anything about it anymore.
Meanwhile at the Globe and Mail (Score:5, Insightful)
What's even worse (Score:5, Insightful)
What really surprised me is that the conservatives don't even try to hide that they are compiling a database of their supporters and rejecters. This goes against the very idea of secret ballot voting, and in most civilised countries is at least theoretically illegal.
Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (Score:4, Insightful)
"It fizzled. In the meantime, record voter suppression laws have been successfully passed by the far right kooks in a number of states"
I'm not an expert on internal USA matters, so I won't doubt you are in the truth.
But certainly not because of the provided evidence... which I took the time to read and that basically ends up to: "nine states won't allow to cast votes to badly or un-identified persons". I happen to think that's a good thing.
Re:Liberals are somehow purer than the Virgin Mary (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps, but I've yet to see news of such a conspiracy from the liberal side. It is healthy to treat both sides with a fair amount of skepticism, but don't let the news of one side openly committing fraud turn into a belief that the other is automatically guilty of the same.
Innocent until proven guilty, and all that.
Re:Liberals are somehow purer than the Virgin Mary (Score:4, Insightful)
Make the penalties REALLY severe (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd like to think that the solution to this sort of thing (voting fraud) could be effectively combatted by making the penalties really severe, like a multi-decade stay in prison. I feel that the consequences are serious enough, after all the BASIC premise of our DEMOCRACY is at stake; one person one vote. I mean how many nations do we despise, condemn or even sanction for not allowing this basic right regardless of how much it has been perverted or corrupted by practices like buying votes or dirty politics. Even when "the people" make stupid mistakes REPEATEDLY (Bush 2000, 2004), we allow them that right.
So denying that right should be treated very very seriously. If, in fact, the criminal act was carried out by a single or few individuals then fine, a long prison term should discourage others. Otherwise, in the best of worlds, a plea bargain will be made in which they'll finger the real perpetrators; the big fish who are doing this systematically and on a large scale. THEY should be prosecuted and sent to prison for a long long time.
Unfortunately the reason why I said "in the best of worlds" is because some of these individuals may be motivated by a higher calling (and not just by the reward of public office or money). If they truly believe that what they are doing serves some sort of meta-physical goal, their beliefs may cause them to act without fear of earthly punishments. Suicide bombers, to take an extreme example, are unlikely to be dissuaded by even the death penalty. This is just another way in which extremism destroys what most people would call civilization and would return us to the pious but desperately impoverished middle ages.
Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (Score:2, Insightful)
2012 will host a bunch of important and close elections, and an even greater portion of the American public won't even be allowed into the polls. Other methods of voter suppression will happen on top of that insidious base.
I love how liberals have some how managed to turn "preventing voter fraud" into "voter suppression." I suppose at the most pedantic level, it's true. By preventing people from fraudulently voting, you are suppressing their vote.
Oh no, you might be required to show a picture ID to vote! Check in your wallet. See that state-issued card with your picture on it? The one you need to drive and buy alcohol? Congratulations! You can vote!
Oh no, you cry, I might not have a driver's license. Except I do because almost everyone does, but theoretically I might not. Well, have no fear! Any valid ID is OK! And every state offers a non-driver's license photo ID.
Whenever I hear people complain about "voter suppressing," all I hear is "if we're not allowed to vote as dead people, we might not win elections!"
Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh no, you might be required to show a picture ID to vote! Check in your wallet. See that state-issued card with your picture on it? The one you need to drive and buy alcohol? Congratulations! You can vote!
Shit, is it behind my bus pass or my food credits card?
Oh no, you cry, I might not have a driver's license. Except I do because almost everyone does, but theoretically I might not. Well, have no fear! Any valid ID is OK! And every state offers a non-driver's license photo ID.
Oh, shit, you mean the state-issued photo ID that costs money (that some folks can't afford, living paycheck to paycheck) and requires one to take the entire day off work (again, that some folks can't afford) to get on a weekday?
Check your privilege.
Re:Baseless? (Score:1, Insightful)
are under the total control of the far right as in the U.S.
There are maybe three "far" right media outlets in the US, of any consequence. Not coincidentally, that's why they're so big.
Unless, of course, you're so far left you think the MSNBC, CNN, NYT, etc. are all "far right". Which is ridiculous.
Re:Baseless? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's my biggest worry. That at the end of it, even with evidence pointing specifically to the Conservatives, that they'll get away with some wrist-slap fine and letting go a couple of people to be sacrificed to the court wolves.
But I can tell you this: The Harper government will not let go of power without fighting through every possible appeal in the courts that they can, even if this investigation doesn't take longer than their term of office. Mindless political party animal that it is, it's equivalent to the survival instinct is the instinct to seek power. Power is the food of the political animal, money is just the handler's proffered carrots.
There have to be more severe penalties for this kind of blatant interference with the government and electoral processes. In light of the Conservatives previous conviction for funding fraud which is what led to an election in the first place, I posit that the Conservatives should be stripped not only of office, but of their federal party status, officially and permanently disbanded.
We neither need nor want the Canadian Reform Alliance Party under any banner or name.
Re:Well, isn't that interesting. (Score:5, Insightful)
You should maintain a healthy skepticism of ALL politicians and those who cling to them.
Indeed. And part of that healthy skepticism is recognizing that while all political parties are inherently brutal and corrupt, they are not equally so; some are, in fact, markedly worse than others. The "oh, forget about it, they're all the same" attitude that a lot of people take is intellectual laziness which, if enough people adopt it, paves the road to power for real monsters.
Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (Score:5, Insightful)
In this case, we have some small amount of voter fraud... dead people voting, vote buying, etc. An obvious solution is to do a better job with voter identity.
In this case we have such a small amount of voter fraud [nytimes.com] that it is significantly less than the margin of error in the counting process. Given that basic fact, any argument for tightening up access to voting must be seen as disinegenuous.
Re:Canada is just as corrupt - or even more so (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is more complicated than you make it appear. Quebec has one of the lowest per-capita incomes in all of continental North America - and that's before you add the highest taxes in the world.
So a level of tuition fees that would be affordable anywhere else is going to have a severe impact, because affordability is related directly to after-tax income.
It's true that much of this damage is self-inflicted - Montreal used to be the head-office capital of Canada, but 50 years of language laws (started in 1969, before the Parti Quebecois came to power in the '70s), the resulting migration of almost a million people from Quebec to the Rest of Canada in just a few short years, and the willingness of politicians of all political stripes to play the game and suck up to Quebec Nationalists when votes are at stake are also part of the problem.
It's in the country's best interest that Quebecers get as much education as possible, not just for the same reasonas as anyone else, but also because a more educated workforce is more likely to have to look elsewhere (the rest of Canada) for jobs because they won't be able to use their skills at home.
The dissatisfaction this generates towards the nationalistic/separatist policies of Quebec among French-Quebecers is the REAL reason that the Quebec government doesn't want to increase the level of education - the less education, the less likely you are to leave the province, so the more likely you are to be vulnerable to exploitation by both government and industry (those highest taxes in the world and those lowest after-tax wages in North America).
It's also why the Quebec government made it illegal for French-Quebecers to send their kids to English schools - it reduces the ability of people to look outside the province for jobs, creating a captive labour pool. We saw this in the nurse's strike in the '90s - the nurses had the backing of the public, but the government knew that the majority of nurses, not being able to pass proficiency tests in English to work in another province or another country, would have to settle for crappy work conditions and lower wages than their more mobile counterparts in other provinces.
Historically, this is not new. The US started it the better part of a century ago; US-funded Quebec industries were notorious for treating the french as cheap labour worthy only of exploitation. The only difference is, with a policy of "maitre chez nous" ("master of our house"), it's the political elite (at the rovincial level in Quebec and the Liberal, Conservative, and NDP politicians at the federal level) who do the exploiting now, always saying stuff that appeases enough of the nationalist/separatist faction to get votes, while at the same time giving them legitimacy.
Whether it was Mulroney, Chretien, or Harper, none of them were willing to engage in realpolitik and call the Quebec provincial and Montreal municipal governments corrupt, because they always wanted enough of those "soft nationalist" votes to hold onto power (and because they too were corrupted).
The solution is complicated.
First, Canadians are going to have to reject any more willingness to compromise with anyone who wants to break up the country. Second, get rid of all the hypenated-Canadian talk. We're all just Canadians, not French-Canadians, English-Canadians, Whatever-Canadians. Labels are used by manipulative scoundrels of all political stripes to divide people, highlighting the unimportant differences rather than the important commonality. In other words, kill off multi-culturalism. Multi-culturalism legitimized Quebec nationalism.
Second, the whole country needs to realize that bilingualism is a "good thing." Not only does it help delay the onset of Alzheimers by exercising the brain more, it also helps the country be more competitive internationally, and communicate better internally. Quebec would have to go from being officially french to officially bilingual, same as New Brunswick. Other provinces sh
Re:Whatever happened in Ohio? (Score:1, Insightful)
Oh, shit, you mean the state-issued photo ID that costs money (that some folks can't afford, living paycheck to paycheck) and requires one to take the entire day off work (again, that some folks can't afford) to get on a weekday?
Except in my very red state, the $10 fee is waived on proof of financial hardship, takes about an hour (not a full day) to get, and all BMV offices are open late (1900 hrs,, IIRC) one weekday, and a half day Saturday. All these changes (except the fee waiver) were made when they added the photo ID voting requirement.
Check your privilege.
Check your connection to reality, where politicians of either party will bend over backward to keep poor urban blacks content, because giving the Rev. Jackson an excuse to show up at a "racism" protest in your capital is political suicide, thus classism is tempered.
It's not to stop the poor (or at least not the urban poor -- the rural poor are less capable of organizing, and the white trash can't call classism "racism" to get more attention, though Mexican farm workers can and do) from voting, it's to stop illegal immigrants (whether poor or lower middle class) from voting. Frankly, I don't have a problem with that; I'm not a mass deportation supporter, but I don't think they should vote.
Re:Baseless? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Baseless? (Score:5, Insightful)
Dude, you're absolutely clueless about left or right. The US has a right-wing party, and an ultra right-wing party. Both are made up of corrupted corporatists, which in the rest of the world probably would be called by their right name: Fascists.
Re:Liberals are somehow purer than the Virgin Mary (Score:4, Insightful)
All your links are, in two words matching your tone, FUCKING IRRELEVANT. Because those are for AMERICAN incidents.
Despite GP forgetting to capitalize the "L" in Liberal, by context the GP and GGP posts were obviously referring to the Liberal Party of Canada (there is no major US federal party called Liberal), and *specifically* incidents of voter suppression tactics in our last election.
There were cases of Liberal-backed robocalls during the election that were violated Elections Canada rules, in that they failed to identify the party that the call represented. That is a fucking far cry from claiming to be Elections Canada and misdirecting known non-Conservative voters to non-existent voting stations.
Re:Baseless? (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't know if mass media in Canada are under the total control of the far right as in the U.S.,
So youre saying NPR, Huffington Post, MSNBC, CBS etc are all far right?
Ok then.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Baseless? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Baseless? (Score:3, Insightful)
Unlike Canada, the news in the US no longer has to present a balanced viewpoint.
Good, I prefer it that way. Know why? Because the "balanced viewpoint" was always fake before. Walter Duranty was Stalin's mouthpiece at the NY Times. Walter Cronkite conducted an anti-Vietnam campaign in his position at CBS, and on the eve of the biggest defeat the US forces ever dealt to the North Vietnamese the day after Tet.
I much prefer a British type press system where you know where your newspapers and stations stand. Quality of reporting can go hand in hand with an editorial viewpoint if done correctly. Both the Telegraph and the Guardian... both 180 from each other in viewpoint... still do good journalism. Our "balance" was an illusion and a farce. I may not like MSNBC, but they have the virtue of being more honest than NBC, which tries to pretend that they're centrist and above it all.
Re:Baseless? (Score:4, Insightful)
Pretty much entire rest of the world is "too far left" by your definition.