US Unhappy With Australians Storing Data On Australian Shores 386
Fluffeh writes "The United States' global trade representative has strongly criticized a perceived preference on the part of large Australian organizations for hosting their data on-shore in Australia, claiming it created a significant trade barrier for U.S. technology firms. A number of U.S. companies had expressed concerns that various departments in the Australian Government, namely the Department of Defence had been sending negative messages about cloud providers based outside the country, implying that 'hosting data overseas, including in the United States, by definition entails greater risk and unduly exposes consumers to their data being scrutinized by foreign governments.' Recently, Acting Victorian Privacy Commissioner Anthony Bendall highlighted some of the privacy concerns with cloud computing, particularly in its use by the local government. He said the main problems were the lack of control over stored data and privacy, in overseas cloud service providers."
Re:ERROR (Score:5, Insightful)
The US believes in being fair. They need the Australian government & companies to store data on US servers so it can be fairly stolen by them not just China.
They're too lazy/incapable of getting the data themselves.
LOLWUT??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would this be a problem? The farther away their "cloud" is, the worse the performance. There's enough of a performance hit just trying to cram all that data through a company's entartube without stretching that tube many thousands of miles for no good reason.
Toys - Pram (Score:5, Insightful)
Is that really them throwing their toys out of the pram?!
"How dare the Aussies deny us from intercepting data and shutting down sites by Australian companies and citizens"
I'm an asshole too (Score:5, Insightful)
Whoever is in charge of Australia's defence department is an asshole and I happen to agree with him. WHY is it even close to being a good idea to send data out like that and especially in the US? Sorry, but I don't trust the US government.
Good for Australia (Score:5, Insightful)
I live in the US. With the recent mega upload fiasco and some of the other craziness, I think it's a smart move for foreigners to avoid hosting in the US.
US courts are trying to reach into other countries now. We've got way to much craziness here to trust us. The government should have known their actions will have consequences.
Correct response (Score:2, Insightful)
Just raise an eyebrow, look the trade representative in the eye for a long, quiet moment, and then get back to work.
What? (Score:4, Insightful)
Ob (Score:5, Insightful)
Would you store your beer collection in a country where it's legal to piss in it?
Re:ERROR (Score:5, Insightful)
Pretty much.
US to World: Drop your tariffs! Embrace free trade (that our farmers are good at)!
World to US: OK, you first.
US to World: No! We have to think of *our* farmers first! (US goes off and complains to WTC)
It's how the World Bank wields so much power, using economic terrorism against poor countries.
Re:Cloud Perception (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, God, you did not just use "solution" as a verb, did you? Really?
Re:ERROR (Score:5, Insightful)
I hope not he/she doesn't get modded to -1.
Is there a cloud based company that will not take a peek at any of the information stored on it's servers? Does anyone really believe that? Most companies are looking for any advantage they can get. If they happen to 'see' something and patent it first it might be really hard for a small company or single person to prove that in court. Meanwhile said company could be raking in the cash on that idea/data.
I am in the US. I work with people who do a lot if research. Most of them like the cloud idea for storing their research information. They like it until they realize that the host of the cloud can read their data.
Re:ERROR (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good for Australia (Score:5, Insightful)
I live in the US. With the recent mega upload fiasco and some of the other craziness, I think it's a smart move for foreigners to avoid hosting in the US.
US courts are trying to reach into other countries now. We've got way to much craziness here to trust us. The government should have known their actions will have consequences.
That isn't necessarily true, it really depends on what you are planning on doing. 'Jurisdiction shopping' for hosting purposes isn't all that different, strategically, from doing it for tax laws. Different jurisdictions are useful for different things and varying degrees of terrible for others.
If you, say, actually want to comply with EU and/or member state privacy law, or just don't want the NSA doing cloud backups for you, you'd be a moron to let your data get anywhere near the US. Same deal if you want to do something that makes the MPAA sad. On the other hand, the US is a pretty decent(and attractively priced) place to have strong opinions about assorted governments, religions, and ethnic groups that would quite possibly earn you an extended stay in a cozy correctional facility at home... The important thing is identifying your requirements and doing your best to ensure that the most sympathetic jurisdictions, for those needs, are where your activities occur...
Re:No America - you're not getting our data. (Score:4, Insightful)
This is really true of any pair of countries. The only reason to host data and servers in the US is if it's (much) cheaper or if that data needs to be highly available to your customers in the US. Otherwise, the legal and practical implications of storing your data in a country other than your own make such a decision crazy for businesses.
Re:Good for Australia (Score:5, Insightful)
I live in China. I'd only consider a completely local hosting solution, not because the US government fucks you harder than the Chinese government, but simply because you're going to get fucked by the local one whatever you do, so better leave it at one than be double penetrated.
Re:ERROR (Score:4, Insightful)
I work for a cloud provider. I have root on all of the servers. I have never, nor have I ever even wanted too, looked at any of our customers data. If fact, I'm not even sure that I could: if I even knew how!
If you think that all Cloud providers do all day is read email, you should probably tighten the tinfoil helmet. Or perhaps you could just accept that we have better things to do and really don't give a toss about your Crayola sketched plans for world domination.
Re:ERROR (Score:5, Insightful)
The U.S. is like the Roman Empire in its last years. Trying to boss people around and not being too sucsessful because the power had waned.
Re:Ob (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:ERROR (Score:5, Insightful)
Claiming you have no idea if you could look at my data is not reassuring.
Reassuring would be if you were certain you couldn't.
Re:LOLWUT??? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:ERROR (Score:4, Insightful)
I work for a cloud provider. I have root on all of the servers. I have never, nor have I ever even wanted too, looked at any of our customers data. If fact, I'm not even sure that I could: if I even knew how!
Of course, because you're not doing it - nobody else is.
Sound logic.
Re:ERROR (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, but under the US Patriot Act, the US government has granted themselves unlimited, and secret access to any and all data stored on a US server.
I've done some contract work for the Canadian Government, and it is illegal to store certain kinds of information on US based servers because it would potentially violate Canadian law. There are companies who have arms-length subsidiaries whose job it is to handle government data that could not be allowed to be stored in the US. This is no different than similar issues [zdnet.com] with US owned companies [eweek.com] accessing EU [pcworld.com] data [forbes.com] because of the Patriot Act.
The US can claim their companies are being hurt by this, but the fact of the matter is, the US is not a trustworthy place to store your data unless you are also going to accept them potentially spying on your citizens.
This isn't a trade issue. It's a trust issue.
So if America wants to keep their Patriot Act which tries to violate the laws of other countries, their businesses are going to lose out in those markets if it would mean those companies can't comply with local laws and the US law at the same time.
Sorry, but these aren't spurious claims -- they're well established issues which have been covered before.
Re:ERROR (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe the US government should try something radical and stop creating the problem?
It's no different in Canada. Governments are essentially legally forbidden from using cloud services that can't guarantee data won't be stored in the US (ie: all the American ones). That's just because of assanine US government policies and their cavalier attitude towards privacy.
Walls Rise And Fall (Score:4, Insightful)
That wall will be built by the Americans themselves if it ever comes about. It is not so likely now that either Obama or Romney will end up as President.
However the United States has always had periods of voluntary and ideologically founded Isolationism. If you give them another shock to the system like 9/11 or internal forces such as the Tea Party pushes them in that direction they could very well decide to shut their doors to the greater world.
I don't think the world will be better off without the US, we might not like everythng the US does, but it has probably been more beneficial than bad. I'm not disregarding the wars, mistakes and indirect suffering, but whatever power leads the world in the future will have to make the same tough decisions. You can't have stability without the threat/use of force.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Correct response (Score:4, Insightful)
No, the correct response is for the Australian Government to stop acting like the 51st state and to start saying NO to America on things that dont directly benefit Australia.
It does NOT benefit Australia to store data belonging to Australian Governments (Federal, State and Local) or Australian Government departments on overseas hosts (both because of the risks of what foreign governments can do with that data if its on their soil AND because of the high costs for bandwidth between Australia and the rest of the world)
It does NOT benefit Australia to be so closely tied to the USA militarily (US troops in Darwin, spending big $$$ on US military hardware like the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter etc) and in fact we should be making closer military ties with countries to our north like Indonesia.
It does NOT benefit Australia to sign "free trade" agreements that require Australia to open its trade even further whilst allowing the USA to remain essentially closed to Australian agricultural exports through US tariff and subsidy programs.
It does NOT benefit Australia to give in to the demands of the big content producing companies when they ask for stronger protection for their content (weakening of ISP safe harbor, forced disconnection of ISP customers alleged to be pirates, ability to obtain ISP user details without presenting sufficient evidence that the user they want information on was in fact violating their copyright etc)
It does NOT benefit Australia to make it easier for law enforcement and intelligence agencies (Australian, US or otherwise) to spy on random people (Australian, US or otherwise) where there is no specific evidence to back up their claims that spying or wiretapping that person will allow the agency in question to catch or identify the bad guys.
Oh and it does NOT benefit Australia to send troops to far flung countries when there is not a threat to Australia or to the world at large. Afghanistan was a justified war initially but now its gone on for too long and we should let the democratically elected government of Afghanistan handle their own security. Iraq 1 was a justified war because Iraq did invade another country and at the time they did have powerful weapons that were a threat to other countries (SCUD missiles, chemical weapons etc) Iraq 2 was NOT a justified war as there was not enough evidence that Iraq at the time presented a threat to its neighbors or to the world at large.
Re:*cough* Megaupload *cough* (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, I see. You must be a proponent of piracy. Just because we shut down one entity and try to extradite one of your citizens who did nothing more than allow his data to flow through routers in the US, you think we're a bunch of out of control bullies who think we can do anything we want, regardless of what any law says....Well, let me tell you...You're right. We are a bunch a bullies who thing we can do anything regardless of what the law says.
As a US citizen, I apologize for the idiots who have taken over our government, and I appreciate your refusal to accept our insane policies. We're fighting the battle here too.
Re:ERROR (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you remember the question/story on /., that went like this: Is the Government Scaring Web Businesses Out of the US?
Well, I said then that it is not just web businesses. [slashdot.org]
It is not just web business that is being destroyed in USA due to this destruction of freedoms and liberties (and Patriot Act is a very ironically named piece of the most unpatriotic legislation that USA has probably ever passed so far, notwithstanding the latest NDAA bill).
Patriot Act has destroyed the competition in the securities, finance, investment brokerage, banking business, and of-course all this information businesses as well.
You see, when USA was actually a free society, it was after the Civil War and before the Fed was established and IRS started collecting income taxes, that's when everybody wanted to come TO USA to do business, because how free the country was.
Who wants to go TO USA to do business today? Well, if you are a large monopolistic bank, a central bank of some sort, then you want to be friends with the Fed, but those are not companies that produce value, they are in business of stealing everybody's money, that's all.
But all this nonsense designed to 'protect' the people of USA is protecting them alright, protecting them from having an economy and a society. Protecting them from being able to invest or work and from being able to save in their own money.
As to Canada, it should really decouple itself from USA, because it looks like it's going the same path at a somewhat slower pace, it really should take a step back and rethink everything, from its failing medical and pension systems to its central banking mechanism.
P.S.
Canada only started its central bank in 1935 and what good did that do to its economy? The moment when the healthcare became 'single payer' or universal in Canada, it had a good health care system, and because of that inertia it took quite a number of years to start seeing deterioration of the kind, where people are forced into insane lines to get treatment (or you have to be lucky to know a doctor, or maybe you are a politician, then you are OK).
Re:ERROR (Score:5, Insightful)
I've said it before to you, and I'll say it again ... if you think you'd suddenly end up with some magically perfect society by rolling back that far, I believe you're sorely mistaken.
You'd end up with something like "Escape From New York" as your society would fall apart.
And, please, don't bother telling me again how the Austrian School of economics and Ron Paul magically prove all of your points. I don't feel like having that discussion again. You might as well try to tell me how the bible proves something scientific.
Re:ERROR (Score:5, Insightful)
Have you looked around? Collectively, people aren't rational actors. The economic assumptions that the populace are rational actors acting on perfect information, and that the people in that market would never attempt to cheat, lie or steal is what finally made me realize your model of economics is based on untenable axioms. To me, it's your system which tries to make people into something they're not. People have been cooperating to eke out a better life for thousands of years. Precisely because it is in their best interest.
People do irrational things. People don't know what's always best for them.
Your system boils down to "fuck everyone else, as long as I have my gun to protect myself I can make it". That's not a "society", that's an uneasy peace since sooner or later one of these people who wants to win is going to remember it's far easier to just take it. You know, like Somalia.
And you the Easter Bunny. Or, maybe I should say Easter Bunnye since we're adding random e's.
As always, such a stimulating conversation.
I had forgotten how boring this stuff is and why I stopped reading Ayn Rand in the first place. Your rugged individualism is more like anti-social behavior to me. I also understand just how thoroughly committed you are to that viewpoint.
So, roll around in your ideology and fantasies of John Galt or being worthy enough to lick the boots of Dagny Taggart. I outgrew that shit 10 years ago.
Cheers
Re:ERROR (Score:5, Insightful)
It's actually worse than that. You could do your due diligence, check out all the options for cloud hosting, do your own background checks on all the executives, managers, and operators/admins of your preferred provider and think you are safe. Then one day, the company could be bought out by "Big Cloud Operations", who fire all the trustworthy operators and outsource administration to India or China so as to increase profits and their executive bonuses. Within days or weeks, your data and trade secrets are in the hands of your competition and there's nothing you can do about it. Oh sure, you could sue them in civil court if you have a few million for lawyers, and by the time you can get a judgment a few years later, they've closed shop, the execs have raked in the cash, and there's just a shell with nothing to pay for your award.
The only thing that you should keep on a public cloud is public data (i.e. public web sites for Internet presence, advertising, and support ). Anything that provides a substantial competitive advantage should be kept on a private virtualization infrastructure or else you're playing Russian roulette with the company's future. The last 10 years should make it pretty clear that If it can be done and there's a strong profit motive, it's only a matter of time until somebody tries it, regardless of how illegal or unethical it is. OK, that's always been true, but the last 10 years sadly make it clear that IT is no exception.
Re:LOLWUT??? (Score:4, Insightful)
It isn't that Australians want to keep their data in Australia so much as they're being told that remote storage--especially in the US--is risky. And they're right. The US just doesn't want people to know this and the last thing they want is people from Australia's Ministry of Defense running around and telling people this.