I can't get a job with a degree in philosophy???

With almost any decent job these days requiring a 4-year college degree, what the hell do you expect? Unless your parents are upper-class or have had the foresight to save up the money (with no intervening crises to eat it up), your only hope to get anything better than slave wages at some manufacturing plant (that's probably going to China at any minute) is to get a highly-competitive scholarship or take out a student loan. And there are only so many scholarships to go around.

When it comes to greed, the Universities make the Wall Street banksters look like Buddhist monks in comparison.

That's true. But when's the last time you saw "4-year degree or equivalent do-it-yourself degree" listed as a job prerequisite for a white collar job?

OK, let me get this straight:
1. Don't go to college, can't find a job. Poor choice.
2. Go to college, can't find a job. Poor choice.

What we have here are a bunch of people willing to work, but the market is unable to find work for them. You blame the people, when the market is what's causing the problem.

First, there is usury. Student loans are unsecured, but federally backed. There is very low risk to the bank. Yet interest rates charged tend to reflect that of high risk loans. Further, while payments are deferred, interest isn't. Not all of this is fully disclosed to the borrower. For instance, do all students know that they are payig interest rates comparable to normal loans, yet with normal loans a borrower can default on a loan. With student loans the must must be paid back, and garnishment of wages and other restrictions on one's livelihood are very easy. Unlike most loans, which are regularly renegotiated, the student loan, with exorbitant interest given the level of risk, is not.

Then there is collusion in the defrauding of the american public. Much of the loan money goes to private distance Universities. These Universities are well known for having very high default rates, and are well known for being victims of straw men loans. In any other financial process, the banks would conduct due diligence to minimize exposure. However, as this is a way to transfer taxpayer money to private banks, there is almost no due diligence. The money is handed out. Banks know or should know the forms are fraudulent. There was one reported case of many forms asking for money to the same address. However, as there is no real risk, and it free money for the bank, no such diligence is performed and banks happily take tax payer money. Unfortunately, all risk and blame is placed on the university and student. While this is appropriate, more blame must be placed on the people who are fundamentally profiting from the fraud. The bankers.

Perhaps the issue is that the inflation rate for college tuition is well above the general inflation rate, that states are contributing a far lower percentage toward operating state unis and community colleges than they have in the past, and that more and more employers are requiring a 4 year degree for positions which don't really need one in the first place.

Perhaps they're not protesting their own debt. Perhaps they're protesting the current situation -- created by banks, governments, universities, and employers -- which has helped foster the enormous tuition rates being charged for students *today*, thereby necessitating massive student loans or a society in which upward social mobility is unnecessarily reduced.

Perhaps there's more to a strong and diverse society and culture than engineering. Perhaps your $USELESS_DEGREE has tremendous social value, and the real problem is that our current economic structure doesn't reward the people working in job($USELESS_DEGREE) well enough. Perhaps they think the problem is that we're simply not funding enough social workers and teachers and the arts -- not that there are too many young people with those degrees.

Look -- I earned a whole bunch of college degrees on full scholarship in tUSA, in fields which pay reasonably well. This isn't about me. Yet, I do agree with the OWS protesters. College debt is too high. Sure, it was all taken voluntarily, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't change the circumstance for future high school graduates. I believe that the Federal Gov't should open more universities at free/low tuition, and not require military service to be admitted -- and focus on areas where we have a national interest. Health care, energy, infrastructure, etc. I believe that state governments should pour far more money into their state universities. I believe that both Fed and state gov'ts should hire more teachers and fund more arts. I support raising taxes on folks with more money [both income and wealth] to pay for it. I think that if we moved in that direction, we'd have a safer, healthier, *better* society.

You can't go into default in the normal sense. Most student loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy.

They can be discharged on death. Because unemployed angsty grads never have problems with suicide, Congress wanted to incentivize it. (Not really, that's just a side-effect. It really is to not burden the family of someone who dies.)

There are, however, really great loan forgiveness programs and loan repayment programs. It varies a little based on your exact loan, but generally, the current loans (which will change slightly next year, possibly) allow (1) income-adjusted repayment, where you repay the government based on your income and get the balance forgiven at the end of 30 years, regardless of how much you still owe, and (2) repayment for public service, where you get your student loans discharged after ten years of government service or not-for-profit work requiring the use of your degree.

Amazingly, I believe the Government accounts for these MASSIVE loan forgiveness expenditures in the budget by calling them budget-neutral and completely ignoring them.

They are great programs in several ways, which may be why they want to make them look good and not really account for them (they don't want to make programs which make public service work possible and which make college and graduate educations possible go away because of political pressures from the rich, who pay the most taxes and so would have the most interest in cutting those programs). Ultimately, of course, it is ridiculous to say they don't cost anything.

There has been a 50% population increase in the US since 1970 and there aren't 50% more good universities, good jobs and houses. Supply and demand is doubly destructive. More cheap labour means wages don't have to rise as fast. Increase population means higher demands on available housing, pushing up prices and cost of living generally. Universities aren't immune to charging more for their product either. We now also have more women in work than in 1970, increasing competition in the job market.

This doesn't account for 900% but accounts for some of it maybe.

Nah supply and demand is broken. When you need a degree to get a job, and you need a job to live, then the demand side skyrockets.

"With that kind of thinking, someone else needs to stop these kinds of people. They wont stop themselves. She should never been able to get those loans in the first place"

Ah. So that she would most likely not have any chance to rise above the poverty line. Check. That'll fix the economy! When there is no discretionary pay left after food and shelter, it doesn't matter how cheap things get when imported from other economies after all - the market for anything is essentially zero.

Get rid of the social stigma attached to being non-degreed, get rid of the bogus requirement to have a degree, any degree, in order to 'succeed' (heh - and THAT's defining success as 'marginally above the poverty line and insured so that medical expenses are less likely to bankrupt you'), and we'll talk.

Until then this will continue.

Maybe your expectations of Little Johnny are completely unrealistic? You expect the AVERAGE kid who gets told by parents, administrators, advisors, newspapers, etc that college is the way to go and to 'follow their dreams'. And given that the same average kid is often coddled and has little life experience... you want them to sort through this, pick the right degree (magically have aptitude for that career path) and also in the mean time delay school (while hearing messages like 'if you wait you will never end up going').

That is just a silly expectation. The kids have no experience to sort through the stream of BS thrown at them and the way they GET experience is to go get a few jobs. And what do those jobs entail? Working retail or McDonalds and being told to get a 'real job' they have to go get a degree, ANY degree.

And now we are back to square one.

Even if kids WERE that competent... what would they pick for a major? Assuming you are good at math (lol) then you MIGHT pick engineering, IT, or CS. But then if they are smart they ALSO see all the news stories about how those jobs are being constantly outsourced. Perhaps they look at the cost of education and possible income.... Real Estate and Finance come to mind as good career choices... or would have been 4 years ago. So they go to school, come out and.... OH WAIT. Predicting the future is hard. Current earnings and job openings DO NOT necessarily predict future earnings and job openings.

And you expect 16-18yo kids to figure this out when OUR ENTIRE GOVERNMENT CAN'T??

I feel sorry for the kids. I don't have a holier than thou attitude and expectations that are completely unrealistic and inane.

The #1 problem is the way we educate. If we simply gave students all the resources they'd need to learn and be properly tested for a trade, education could be cheap. Instead, universities have become these giant city-state institutions with a massive staff that enforce a broad curriculum and cost a fortune to run.

It most certainly should not be done. Maybe some of them are lazy but some of them are industrious and want a job but there's nothing suitable to be found. What incentive will companies have to create REAL jobs if they know they can get indentured servants assigned to them? If they have the choice between an employee that they have to pay a competitive wage, who can leave if he's unhappy or an indentured servant who they can pay practically nothing, who isn't legally permitted to leave, who do you think they're going to choose?

Maybe the banks shouldn't loan little Johnny $100,000 if he doesn't have a reasonable plan for paying it back.
Oh, what's that? The federal government guarantees all student loans? And the banks take advantage of that by loaning money to anyone and everyone who can claim to be studying, without performing any reasonable due diligence or oversight, because the banks know that one way or another, even if they bankrupt the student, they'll still get their money back?

Come on, who do you think is at fault here - the young teenager taking the easy money being offered? Or the multinational corporation with packages designed to temp said teenager, and profit massively out of the situation?

It also is a replay of the mortgage market.

When consumption of goods becomes third party in nature the costs explode. This happened in medical care when employers and the government started to pick up the tab. People didn't realize the costs of services and they have become used to not caring. As a result the services got more expensive over time, usually outstripping inflation.

Student loans and student aid did the same thing. They separated the costs of education from the student. Oh sure the student knew they were going to pay but they didn't have to pay NOW and that was key. They had to make installment payments. That reduces the psychological sting all that money made.

Schools then abused that through incredible marketing both direct and indirect. By having all sorts of support industries to include the press and such espouse all the benefits a high dollar education conferred. The one fact they left out was, the majority would never succeed. Everyone is not equal and the same education does not mean all parties have the same out come.

As for the OWS, go read their site. If that doesn't frighten off people here then I would be shocked. It all centers around having GOVERNMENT become more oppressive. They want, want, want, want, and want. There is no talk about what they will do for others only what others should be compelled to do.

This is almost true. There are some problems with your post, though.

"Educators will tell you that perhaps college should be reserved for those with the ability and initiative to do the work. Not everyone is ready for a college education, or able to engage in the rigorous critical thinking required. That's not popular with the salespeople, who want to sell college to everyone."

The 'salespeople' here are our government, trying to sell hope that even though they encourage industry to move offshore, there is a way for everyone to live happy fruitful lives. Education was that way. And it's necessary now; after all, to get a decent white-collar job now you need 'a degree'. It doesn't have to be related to your job. Jobs available (if you don't have a degree) will ensure that you live in poverty and die early.

"High school is now four years of day care because those teachers figure the kids will really learn to spell in college."

No. High school is now daycare because both parents now have to work to survive and NEED DAY CARE. Teachers are now expected to raise kids, but aren't allowed to punish them. Parents freak when 'little johnny' fails, and rather than take responsibility, they blame the teachers for their kids lack of effort - even though teachers have little or no power to make the kids do ANYTHING.

"When they cheapen those, too, we're going to have to cut out the middleman and bribe our way into careers."
Yes. Only the upper classes will be able to do this too. Oligarchy becomes permanent and the American Dream dies. A permanent, desperate underclass that will work like slaves for almost nothing will be available, and America will finally become 'competitive' with the third world. By becoming a third-world nation.

I've had FAR TOO MANY worthless instructors in my CS / IT classes who could do nothing on a keyboard but tell you everything you could ever wish to know about the damn theory.

I see you lack experience in your domain: So you are going to fire them and replace them with you until you become the same within the system ? Where you have to deal with kids who "know better as you" and think "they understand the world", or whatever vision an experience educator will embody. And then lower your wage to pay for the early retirement of the other ?

So you'd switch the problem from a flexible and creative group to a group who is supporting by carrying mortages, paying studies, feeding and sheltering the younger group ?? So the younger group has a higher income potential with less responsabilities? What planet do you come from ?

The problem is economical, and the lack of taking risks; I always see in these kindof discussions "there isn't enough work" or "They don't want to give me a job" but in the current climate, that job always "sucks" or "isn't paid enough" or such and what not. But complain "the rich aren't giving you work" while those who are creating work are "giving it away to lazy idiots"...? *mouth falls open*

Why not get together with your friends who do not have a job and are highly qualified, are trained in business and creative professions. And while you are are sending out applications, you apply that which you have been taught and start your own business and create work. If it's worthwhile, people will give money for it. If people give a buck for it, you have a buck to spend.

and you have been apparently similarly indoctrinated with social propaganda if you think we have a free market. Government intervention is what is responsible for BOTH the high cost of college and the fact there there is so much OVER supply of degree'ed job candidates that candidates without a degree need not apply.

This situation is not the young high school graduates fault, they are a victim, but not a victim of the market a victim of government distortions in the market.

The program was scaled back drastically after it came out that most of the companies weren't providing any real training at all and were just using these people as free labor. Shocking, huh?

Unfettered, unregulated capitalism at work.

This is not to say that total socialism is the solution. The solution is somewhere midway - a tightly regulated capitalism that prevents abuses and provides a safety net for those who are ruined or harmed by the uncaring, unthinking actions of others while still providing rewards for innovators and hard workers.

I recently graduated with a degree in Electrical Engineering, easily one of the most "Useful and Marketable" undergraduate degrees you can have. I am also a veteran who spent 2 years serving his country, 6 of them getting shot at in Kandahar. I have relocated to the DC-Metro area, one of the areas of lowest unemployment in the country. I BARELY found a job, and at a significantly lower salary than what my peers were being offered in 2007. My tuition costs more than doubled while I was in school. All the while, we've been dumping trillions of dollars to cover the asses of bankers and insurers underwriting ridiculous risks in order to make a quick buck.

But sure, OWS is a bunch of whining leftist hippies. Seriously dude, get fucked.

Classic American blame-the-victim ideology. You've been taught all your life that success or failure is based primarily on personal, rather than environmental/social factors.

Over the past few years, the conservative view has been getting more press, and that's changed slightly.

YOUR success is based on personal factors. YOUR failure is blamed on external factors.

OTHER people's success is based on external factors (dumb luck, handouts). OTHER people's failures is blamed on personal factors (lazy, greedy).

You're dead-on regarding the external factors changing dramatically. People have just been taught to take the blame. When the housing market blew up, there were no rally cries to lynch the underwriters who forged the paperwork. Instead, the public was taught that their own personal greed was the root of the problem.

I believe that the Federal Gov't should open more universities at free/low tuition

It was a goal of Reagan back when he was in California to specifically get rid of free/low-cost college. He saw college students protesting government activities and publicly complained that they were having it easy, and at government expense. With all that free-time they got to protest too much. So: he dramatically raised fees at the state unis. He couldn't raise tuitions, as they were protected. After a few years, there was even a court case that found that excessive fees were a de facto tuition, but by then it was too late.

Now: the pendulum has swung too far. Instead of a bunch of college students with plenty of free time and nothing (of value) to lose, we have a bunch of college students and grads with so much debt that they've thrown in the towel and realized that they have nothing to lose; when you're staring at $0 of college debt, you're essentially in the same situation as an unemployed grad with $100K of debt. "Aw, fuck it," you say.

We're fast entering a similar situation as the "Arab Spring": a bunch of unemployed young people with nothing to lose. Bloomberg stated as much and was taken to task for doing so.

dent loan debt is nondischargeable in bankruptcy unless the debtor can meet a very high burden of proving hardship.

It's no wonder that lenders lend insane amounts, when they can hound their borrowers for years and years.

No way is this in the long term interest of business, but since when has business ever cared about the long term. They buy their congressmen and this is what they get.

Same thing for the goddamn mortgage industry. Banks get super-protection for their residential mortgages in bankruptcy, so they can write stupid mortgages without fear that the mortgage will be modified in a Chapter 13. This is a contributor to all the stupid loans.

Then business sells us on the idea that it's all the debtor's fault. That's the stupidest thing of all. Sure it's the debtor's fault. When the moron takes the stupid home loan or the stupid mortgage, he has only himself to blame. But business interests want us to think: Fuck him. He can sort his own sorry shit out. And we're morons if we agree with that. If our stupid ass neighbor goes down with a bad mortgage--our property values suffer, our banks suffer, and we all suffer. We're all interdependent. Looking out for other people is looking out for ourselves. The frontier ethic doesn't work anymore when we're jammed together in cities.

Enough of a rant. Now I'll get flamed by the small government people who would rather be governed by banks than by elected representatives.

I remember how you guys rose up over the Wall Street bailout. Boy are those guys reeling from how you gave 'em the scowling of a lifetime.

"Come on, who do you think is at fault here - the young teenager taking the easy money being offered? Or the multinational corporation with packages designed to temp said teenager, and profit massively out of the situation?"

How is it you missed the other party in your search for fault? The federal government that guarantees all the loans? If the government guarantees that the banks will get their money, doesn't it make sense for the banks to take advantage of that?

You might be surprised. When you have a limited pool of something that can't expand, and more demand than supply, prices can go up almost exponentially.

If you drive on a congested highway to work you might notice on a school holiday or delay that the time to commute changes dramatically. And yet, the change might have only taken 10% of the cars off the road. Basically a road can handle so many cars per minute and once you start hitting that level the queuing becomes massive.

Look at home prices - when an area runs out of land for new homes the existing home values start going up dramatically. Gas prices are similar - when those hedge funds collapsed and stopped trading oil futures prices crashed - it isn't like people stopped driving their cars much or anything.

In the case of a university consumers have very little flexibility - if they want an accredited education then there are only so many places to go and new options open up infrequently. Demand exceeds supply, and so prices can rise almost freely. Really the only constraint are limits on student borrowing. If next year the US government announced that students could borrow up to $1M/year in student loans you'd see tuitions skyrocket.

I'm sorry to hear about your parents' illness, but sorry to break it up to you. They were fucking stupid and they fucked you up. They projected their own ideals of life into you in a manner that only served to indulge their shallow, narrow-minded (and I dare say arrogant) world view (a particular trait in our culture which is what is putting us in the fucked up place we are right now). Their interests, their pushing their agenda on you, that never represented your best interests. I'm sure they loved you dearly, but love is not enough. I mean, what kind of parent would refuse to sign FAFSA papers for his children just because his children do not want to go to a private university?

I mean, think about it. In that aspect, they fucked up in their parental duties, they played God, and as a result, they have loaded your life with $100K in debt that cannot ever be defaulted by the normal venues of bankruptcy. Sorry pal, I am not the one risking being branded as shallow and ignorant.

And speaking of world views...

I'm sure that in your college education you were exposed to the concept of reading comprehension, and reading skills in general. This is what I wrote. Tell me how the "something fundamentally fucked up with you" passage applies to you (who went to a private university for a STEM degree):

So. Read.

No. People do not get screwed by students loans. People screw themselves with the decisions they make with them (or in your case, your parents screwed you up with them.) Your case does not represent a general case, and doesn't even represent the general case described in my description of things, so I don't what sort of mechanisms you are using when extracting meaning from written passages.

Having said that, I have to say I sympathize with you. I do not know your situation (I also went through a terrible period of disproportionate personal debt - private credit debt - due to a lack of sound money skills.) But, unless you are facing health issues, or you are already married