Does the GOP Pay Friendly Bloggers? 759
jamie writes "According to the conservative political journalism site Daily Caller: '"It's standard operating procedure" to pay bloggers for favorable coverage, says one Republican campaign operative. A GOP blogger-for-hire estimates that "at least half the bloggers that are out there" on the Republican side "are getting remuneration in some way beyond ad sales." Or in some cases, it's the ads themselves: ads at ten times the going rate are one of the ways conservative bloggers apparently get paid by the politicians they write about. In usual he-said she-said fashion, Daily Caller finds a couple of obscure liberal bloggers to mention too, but they fully disclosed payment and one of them even shut down his blog while doing consulting work, unlike Robert Stacy McCain and Dan Riehl."
conservatives (Score:5, Insightful)
why don't you understand how you are being used by the rich moneyed classes and corporate interests?
if you ARE rich and moneyed or a corporate interest, congratulations on your successful manipulation of your larger herd of sheep
From the "no shit" department? (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously this is news? The Bush administration pre-packaged a propaganda piece on their Medicare changes for news stations to run unedited. The Ministry of Information is alive and well at the GOP.
Yawn (Score:4, Insightful)
Short version: The Old Guard thought they were losing the culture war (damn hippies!), so they ponied up cash, endowments, entitlements; set up think tanks and commissions in order to control spin that never really existed in the first place.
And here we are today, with the fruits of that labour being the shallow end of the Teabagger nonsense.
Ain't rich people grand?
Re:conservatives (Score:1, Insightful)
And this differs from the Democrat party how exactly??
Gee (Score:5, Insightful)
What a balanced and unbiased summary. I will be sure to read the linked article and participate in what will certainly be a level-headed and thought-provoking discussion.
Yeah, right (Score:5, Insightful)
A GOP blogger-for-hire estimates that 'at least half the bloggers that are out there' on the Republican side 'are getting remuneration in some way beyond ad sales.''
And the bullshit meter goes off the scale! Half of the intersection between the sets of "Bloggers" and "Republicans" are being paid for their postings? Yeah, sure they are.
Even if the GOP (or the Dems for that matter) are dumb enough to pay for that kind of coverage, who cares? Advertising has become much more subversive lately anyway, and often times you have to try pretty hard to figure out if what you're seeing is even an ad or not.
Daily Caller finds a couple of obscure liberal bloggers to mention too, but they fully disclosed payment and one of them even shut down his blog while doing consulting work
Ah, what kind and honest people all liberals must be, and especially their bloggers and politicians!
Careful there, your bias is unzipped.
Re:conservatives (Score:5, Insightful)
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2010/07/28/senate_republicans_thwart_campaign_spending_bill/ [boston.com]
Re:Gee (Score:5, Insightful)
It actually is a fair and accurate summary of the article. I know, it's Slashdot and we're all a little shocked, but it is.
Whether or not you think the article is fair, maybe that's another story.
Re:conservatives (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yes...this will end well (Score:5, Insightful)
The real news flash is that only Republicans are mentioned. Clearly, Democrats are lily-white citizens of the political world. ;)
Re:Gee (Score:2, Insightful)
If it's common practice only on one side, how would a "balanced and unbiased" summary look like?
For me as an outside observer it looks like you have one party that attracts all kinds of loons (aka the GOP, you know, even thinking of Palin as somebody who might be let near the white house strikes the rest of the world as silly) and another right-wing party (aka the democrats) that is despised by these loons. Just go to conservapedia.com. I used to go there for a laugh, but the stupidity seems too real nowadays.
Re:Yawn (Score:0, Insightful)
Tea Party Nonsense?
And liberals aren't paying lefty blogs?
Who's drinking the tea now?
Re:conservatives (Score:0, Insightful)
It doesn't, but this is slashdot where agendas are more important than unbiased news.
Never understood the problem with this (Score:4, Insightful)
If someone self-identifies as a "Conservative Blogger" then I would expect that most of their readers are also conservative.
No one can force a person to read their blog. If what they have to say does not resonate with enough readers, the problem takes care of itself.
The whole idea of "exposing" these sorts of things smacks of avoiding the arena of ideas and reveals a lack of confidence in one's positions. Trying to paint conservative bloggers as paid henchmen is more about smear-tactics than trying to inform people.
This is just providing pre-justification for ignoring criticism and your own responsibility to back up your positions in the face of dissent.
Re:conservatives (Score:0, Insightful)
The last resort of a conservative supplicant, "The DEMO-RATS are just as bad". Really, is that your only excuse? How very lame. Odd how so many of those comments get voted 'insightful'... One might even think that some people try to use mod points just for to shove a political point. It's too bad that meta moderation doesn't seem to catch them. What's the real stats on it?
Welcome to slashdot, YMBNH (Score:5, Insightful)
Question: "Does the GOP pay friendly bloggers?"
Answer: "Does anyone NOT pay friendly bloggers? And if not, how stupid are they?"
How many of us regulars here can honestly say we've never encountered a paid shill right here on this little corner of the web? There are agents from Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, and the US government. We encounter them all the time, and they're always easy to spot. If you think this is unique to this one website, you're insane.
So I say again, welcome to slashdot - or indeed the Internet - you must be new here...
Re:Yeah, right (Score:2, Insightful)
Fixed that for you.
More U.S. government corruption (Score:1, Insightful)
Full court press time (Score:2, Insightful)
Hopefully, the editors of
Re:conservatives (Score:4, Insightful)
Protip: It is near impossible to change people's political ideologies, and it is completely impossible to change the ideology of people when you insult them.
But I don't want to step over your point, which is accurate. The conservative's main voter base (blue-collar, working class, middle-americans) are the ones hurt the most by Republican policy. And yet they vote for the same policies time after time out of a belief that liberal politicians are immoral, or anti-jesus, or hate families or something.
What do you think? (Score:3, Insightful)
I could start by simply asking "Is water wet"?
It would be far easier to say, "Yes, and so do the Independents, and the Liberals, and the Democrats, and the Republicans, and the Socialists . . . " Get the point? Of course any group with an agenda to popularize is going to sponsor / pay a blogger to say friendly things.
It's no different than advertising - it's no different than a billboard or a web ad.
It's a fools mission to try and argue this or to even belabor it with any discussion. If you don't see that the liberal agenda is popularized by the liberal media, and likewise a conservative agenda, and so forth you are sadly mistaken. No matter how you slice it it comes down to a propaganda machine. The media and advertisers try to push and pull your opinions in any way they can to sway your decision. If they can cause even the slightest shift in your POV they have been successful. So don't be surprised by it.
Re:Not just the GOP (Score:5, Insightful)
I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not so sure about the claim about the lack of conservative think tanks.
The Heritage Foundation [heritage.org] and The Cato Institute [cato.org] are widely known and have a fairly abundant amount of pull in the conservative community. Those two alone are MASSIVE, and capable of more than most people realize.
Re:conservatives (Score:2, Insightful)
If corporations are "conservative" how come almost all their TV Media outlets (ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN) are pro-big-government and anti-individual liberty? It appears the corporations are actually the opposite of conservative: Progressive (aka liberal).
And in other news:
- Payola is still alive and well.
- Developed film at 11.
- Color me unsurprised.
Re:Yes...this will end well (Score:3, Insightful)
While that's a great theory and all, and I subscribe to it myself, have you seen the Democrat party lately? Those fuckers couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery, so I have a hard time believing they could have some sort of compensated blogger/journalist setup anywhere near as big or as effective as the GOP.
Re:Yes...this will end well (Score:3, Insightful)
Not blogging, but: how about bribing senators in actual legislation (e.g., healthcare bill)?
Referring to blogging itself, this is probably going to be a "biased" blog, I'm sure, but, hotair [hotair.com] has a piece on it. He doesn't mention "payola blogging" and Democrats specifically... but how about, ohhh... ACORN?
And to cap it off, this "news" lists a few "supposed examples" according to this guy [professorbainbridge.com], which does not even show any sort of rampant "GOP pays friendly bloggers!!!!!!!!11!!11" thing. Gasp, there are corrupt people who are Republicans? Shocking. And here I thought the Republican party were all saints.
Re:conservatives (Score:3, Insightful)
I almost wish the republicans were in office and put social security into the stock market. The resulting fallout might have been enough to wake people up. Also, it just irks me to death that high-dollar traders can make millions just by having a faster connection to the stock-market. That's basically stealing money from all the little folk who are also investing in the stock market -- money doesn't come from nowhere!
Re:Yeah, right (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:conservatives (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, they're pro-Big Government, because they now are the government. And there anti-individual liberty because that cuts down on profits. Sheesh, where ya been the last few years?
Oh, and nice strawman btw. Almost missed it.
Re:Yawn (Score:2, Insightful)
Liberal activist welfare is not news - just Google George Soros.
Short version: The New Guard thought they were losing the culture war (damn neocons!), so they ponied up cash, endowments, entitlements; set up think tanks and commissions in order to control spin that never really existed in the first place.
And here we are today, with the fruits of that labour being the shallow end of the Angry Left nonsense.
lol (Score:2, Insightful)
your statement tells me a lot about your psychology, but little to do with reality. of course corruption exists. that it controls me or that it is insurmountable is not true. however, if corruption is ever going to succeed in this world, it needs the complicity of people like you: those who won't fight it, but simply accept it. so the more people who think like you, the more corruption there is: you are an accessory to the crime in your lack of action and lack of resistance
so congratulations on having the psychology of a slave. but i'm sorry, i'm not a slave, so i'll be fighting that corruption, and i'll be rejecting your helpless hopeless self-fulfilling defeatism. your psychology defines the parameters of how your life will suck, but not mine
the united states government is composed of the will of the people. to some extent (but not the whole way, and not insurmountably), that isn't true, such as with corporate money rousing conservative rabble with faux news propaganda. and to that extent that the us government, defined to represent the will of the people, fails that definition and fails to represent the will of the people... well, to me, that is merely the extent to which we have some pus filled pimples to pop
i am not an ignorant idealist: corruption will never go away completely, and corruption will always grow back like the fungus it is. the simple truth is that it is a constant clean up process, that will never end, and will go on forever. no one truly wise understands this problem in any other way. cleaning up corruption is merely an ongoing maintenance function, like taking out the garbage every week. it shouldn't scare you, it shouldn't depress you. it is merely a fact of life you accept and constantly guard against, and always will. there exists no utopia where corruption does not exist, and no utopia, composed of human beings, can ever be founded that would be free of corruption. it is what it is. accept its existence, but never stop cleaning it up. the best you can do minimize it, but it is far worse to stop fighting it, and let it grow and do more injustice and damage
so pick a broom and join me in cleaning things up, or shut the fuck up, you useless ignorant mindlessly negative piece of shit
Re:conservatives (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What do you think? (Score:5, Insightful)
"You're wrong. People who agree with me are enlightened beings. Everyone else is a brainwashed sap and the poor suckers can't even tell!" -- most people throughout history, no matter their point of view.
Re:i don't know that link domain (Score:3, Insightful)
liberals practice socialism (Score:1, Insightful)
and we all know what socialism is: a bad scary word
europeans practice socialism, and we all know it is historically because of nazis and communists, and europeans don't appreciate how we single handedly won world war ii for them
the next time i pass a man dying in the street, i am sure to smile and say that i will be giving him no aid, so he can die in peace knowing he wasn't tainted by the evil socialist impulse to help your neighbor: that's anti-christian too! everyone must be self-reliant all the time. because the moment we give the slightest aid to someone in need, that is a slippery unstoppable slope to absolute communism!
the real american way is to not care about the welfare of your fellow americans, to the point you impoverish your society, and therefore, eventually impoverish yourself (tears, sniffle)
down with the middle class!
(sparkly bald eagle holding flag gif)
DISMEMBER IN NOVEMBER!
FREE(to be)DUMB!
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Gee (Score:4, Insightful)
Ok, let's for the sake of argument say that there's a campaign going on between two candidates, John Davidson and David Johnson. An investigative reporter has discovered boatloads of evidence that John Davidson's campaign has committed massive fraud. He's done similar investigations of David Johnson's campaign and found nothing remotely similar.
Now, what's the best course of action for our intrepid gumshoe reporter and his editor?
A. Reporting on the facts known about John Davidson's campaign (with an appropriate amount of space given to Davidson's rebuttal),
B. not reporting on the fraud at all to avoid the appearance of bias against Davidson's campaign or bias in favor of Johnson's campaign, or
C. reporting on the fraud and implying that Johnson is quite possibly engaging in the same sort of thing, despite investigation showing that this is untrue?
The truth isn't always balanced or unbiased, and hiding a truth that may have a biased effect is introducing a lie of omission.
Re:conservatives (Score:5, Insightful)
If making more money than the vast majority of Americans doesn't make you rich, what IS your standard?
i gave you a link to the boston globe (Score:4, Insightful)
which is a reputable news source
and you think i should read this?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_of_Spades_HQ [wikipedia.org]
an overtly partisan blog?
and this is supposed to convince of me anything other than that you are trying very, very hard to be the stereotypical conservative sheep?
son: you are a dictionary worthy portrait of absolute brain washed propagandization and completely blindness
you honestly think a PARTISAN BLOG is a worthy retort to REAL WORLD FACTS?
stunning. sad
the great march of the morons
Re:conservatives (Score:1, Insightful)
I'd rather have it in stocks than nowhere at all. You do realize SS is a pay as you go system, and nothing of any value at all is saved right?
Re:conservatives (Score:5, Insightful)
While the moral basis undoubtedly contributes I wouldn't underestimate the impact of fiscal policy. There's a reason why Republicans lose when they start spending money irresponsibly and a reason why they get a swing in their direction when they start campaigning about reigning in spending and try to paint the other party as big government. Blue collar middle class people understand working with limited resources so controlling spending rings true to them.
In addition, because they don't have a lot they tend to be more conservative minded as in, they don't want to take big risks. Big risks sound good when you can afford the loss for a chance at huge gains, or when you've got nothing to lose, but when you're doing OK but a fuck up means you lose everything you want things to be stable and keep slowly grinding away to move up.
I wonder how much (Score:2, Insightful)
I wonder how much the person who posted this got paid....hmmm...
a) This is not a soley "Republican" issue....many Democrat bloggers get paid, and many so-called grass-roots not-for-profits are merely paid mouth-pieces.
b) Both the Republican and Democrat Party suck. But when a article is posted like this, total political crap on a geek site. It sucks WORSE!!!!
c) Join issue causes, stop supporting these parties. You can be a pro-gun and pro-gay. You can be pro-life and pro-environment. Neither party should have a hold of any issue.
d) Did I mention that both the Republicans and Democrats SUCK!!!!!
Re:And yet... (Score:1, Insightful)
But then he can't claim that the Republicans didn't have all sorts of scandals that just sort of disappeared instead of having the media "harping on them". Hell, one of their biggest mouthpieces somehow dodged drug charges that would have put a black guy behind bars for decades and all that became of it was a footnote on a Tonight Show joke. A Republican gets busted for liking the young men, goes into "rehab" and "gets better", and the "big news" about it is that Fox reported that he was a Democrat, twice.
The bigger problem is that the so-called "real" republicans have been using the so-called "RINO" label to chop out anyone that might make them look bad. Then they cry about the fact that the three remaining republicans weren't enough to vote McCain into office (which is ok because as well all know he lost because he was a "RINO" despite the fact that nobody knew this until after he lost). It's easy to deflect criticism when you can shed half your party like a lizard sacrifices its tail.
Re:conservatives (Score:3, Insightful)
Making more than 99% of the US means you are not rich?
Just what is your standard? 99.9% (~$1M/yr)
Never heard of the filibuster, eh?
I'm sorry that the Republican party has left your ideals behind, and gone full Randian-crazy where money is a zero-sum game and those evil unwashed masses should be destroyed lest they get in the way of Galt-like supermen.
Re:I wonder how much (Score:3, Insightful)
Bloggers getting paid isn't a problem. Bloggers not disclosing they're being paid by an entity with a vested interest, or entities not disclosing that they're paying bloggers to write stories about them, that's the problem. And as noted, while the GOP could come up with bloggers being paid by the Democrats those bloggers did in fact disclose this fact on their blogs so their readers knew they were reading paid stories. Unlike the GOP bloggers, who didn't disclose they were being paid.
Re:And yet... (Score:3, Insightful)
No, that's exactly the point.
This is voter intimidation like my dog peeing on your lawn is breaking and entering.
If you treat this as a case of voter intimidation, you're treating something ridiculous much too seriously.
Your kidding, right? (Score:3, Insightful)
that bill is so flawed as to be beyond stupid.
First, why should it matter who exercises free speech? Why should there be limits on who can? Let alone why are some groups given exceptions from the law specifically in the bill? Simple, this about protecting those in power. Take any bill in Congress by its name and you know exactly that its purpose is to do the opposite.
I sometimes cringe when seeing what is moderated insightful on these boards, the bias of the site is so blatant at times it boggles the mind. We see knee jerk reactions, parrot head responses, and group think moderation all the time. Yet tell me what has changed since 06, let alone 08? Nothing. If anything it has gotten worse.
Let alone the idiot suggestion of the story that its only Conservative bloggers who are being paid. Very much like the story out of Digg about a group who acts as one to suppress. Well why shouldn't they. They are merely employing tactics that the other side figured out first. The problem is, one side doesn't like losing their advantage so they take all the things they know they have been doing that aren't kosher and try to firmly place those actions on their opposites. It lets them keep themselves on their self perceived high road.
It does not work, regardless of moderation here, at Digg, or any other site, those who watch these stupid games and call them for it know whats going on and laugh at it. Keep voting for your Democrats and Republicans, you deserve them.
Any act which suppresses any speech should be feared.
Re:i don't know that link domain (Score:5, Insightful)
It leads to the "Ace of Spades" blog, wherein there is an article that deconstructs this stupid Daily Caller story and also crosslinks to Dan Reihl's blog where he also responds to the Daily Caller story.
Uh. Right.
Dan Reihl's response is that he wasn't paid enough for it to be them paying him for his views. Accepting money from a source about which you give favorable reviews is unethical however you slice it. Just because you work within FEC rules doesn't mean that what you're doing is okay.
Then, the "Ace of Spades" blogger confirms that he was offered to publish a story for pay on multiple occasions.
All this makes Republican payola seem more and more like "standard operating procedure"
"the fact that it is an overtly political blog (Score:4, Insightful)
has no relevance"
do i laugh?
or do i cry?
sir: you are the downfall of this country
not because you are right leaning, but because you reject truth, you reject OBVIOUSLY NEUTRAL NEWS SOURCES in favor of OBVIOUSLY BIASED OPINION
show me a left leaning person who professes the same stupidity, and i will say the same thing about them!
because the problem, son, is not being conservative, or liberal
in fact, i would WELCOME an intellectually honest conversation with an honest open minded intelligent conservative, FOR ONCE
but they seem to all be dead. they seemed to have been taken over by the bleacher creatures, cretins like yourself who OPENLY and WITHOUT SHAME, as a mark of PRIDE (amazing!), trumpet the fact that they PREFER rumor, innuendo, and outright deceit... over neutral news sources
incredible. stunning. very sad for the country i love
intelligent conservativism is dead. long bleat the sheep: biased, and PROUD OF IT
incredible! i still cant' get over how proud you are of your self-professed ignorant
you actually believe your closed minded, walled off garden of bias, is a source of strength
WOW
how does one deal with such zombified people?
Re:conservatives (Score:3, Insightful)
well that's BS. "Fundamentally Transforming" government would involve kicking the corporate interest out and actually listening to the grass roots. Neither side is doing that.
Re:i don't know that link domain (Score:5, Insightful)
It links to the "Ace of Spades" blog where you will find just how pissed off a blogger can get when absolutely nobody wants to pay him a nickel for his stupid blog and he learns that other people are getting paid. And if you want the skinny on Dan Reihl, I suggest going to sadlyno.com and search for "Dan Reihl". I defy anyone reading here to go read Reihl's blog and not come away thinking the guy is a drooling moron. Plus, you will find much enjoyment at "Sadly, No!", one of my favorite sites on the web.
Re:conservatives (Score:3, Insightful)
I couldn't agree more the myth of the liberal media is just that - something the GOP has told so many times people think its true - there is nothing liberal about the MSM - cheers
It comes entirely down to whatever will drive ratings. Republicans have popular sentiment? Time to talk up the war! Time to talk up hurtful high taxes! Wait, Democrats are winning elections again? Oops! War was a bad idea! Rich people don't pay taxes! Come listen to us! We have something important to say!
As for how the liberal media myth got it's legs, what on earth could be an easier ratings-generator for right wing media than saying every other outlet is dangerously left wing?
Re:Gee (Score:4, Insightful)
If the reported fraud is committed by a Democrat, the looniecrats will spread the story like mad. If it's committed by a Republican - at least here in Florida - it's business as usual and no one will notice or care.
- Robin
Re:conservatives (Score:4, Insightful)
The companies that are pro free market tend to be smaller companies that are unable to compete due to the laws and regulations laid out by the big guys. There are also exceptions for other large companies that rely on buying cheap goods in bulk from others etc, but those aren't the majority of companies. If you want to know which way the companies lean, just look at what candidates they support. When the democrats look like they'll be in power slightly more money goes to them and vice versa. They don't want to be screwed over when the leaders in washington change.
Phil
Re:Your kidding, right? (Score:2, Insightful)
First, why should it matter who exercises free speech?
Huh? Money != speech. Quit drinking the kool-aid, dumbass.
Re:conservatives (Score:3, Insightful)
Fair enough, but it's amazing how short the memory of the population tends to be. The fact that a year of jawing about fiscal responsibility has somehow given the GOP the high ground after 8 years of them shoveling money down the drain is incredible. Doubly so when the party has not laid out any reasonable plan to actually reduce spending or raise revenues, and I find it amazing that there are so many people who take them seriously.
Re:conservatives (Score:4, Insightful)
The conservative's main voter base (blue-collar, working class, middle Americans) are the ones hurt the most by Republican policy.
That combines a couple of mis-perceptions of the Republican Party base.
First off, most conservative politicians do a good job of protecting agricultural subsidies, which appear at least like they benefit farmers. They also do an excellent job of protecting military pork based in their districts. There are a lot of blue-collar middle Americans who's jobs depend on their conservative representatives. If your town's economy depends on building missiles to be used in Iraq, someone like Dennis Kucinich or Ron Paul threatens your livelihood. So at least by all appearances, folks like Bob Dole did look out for rural blue-collar interests. (That they robbed everyone else in order to do it, and otherwise ruined the economy, is besides the point.)
Secondly, blue-collar rural folks aren't as much the Republican Party base as Republicans like to project. The real base has historically been suburban upper-middle-class white men. For instance, the key group of Reagan's rise to power wasn't rural folks at all, but Orange County California. What the Republicans have been able to do historically in rural areas much more effectively than other areas is put out the idea in rural communities that urban people are their enemies and that any public spending programs benefit urban people at the cost of rural people. (In fact, the exact opposite is true.)
Re:"the fact that it is an overtly political blog (Score:3, Insightful)
i would WELCOME an intellectually honest conversation with an honest open minded intelligent conservative, FOR ONCE
but they seem to all be dead. they seemed to have been taken over by the bleacher creatures, cretins like yourself who OPENLY and WITHOUT SHAME, as a mark of PRIDE (amazing!), trumpet the fact that they PREFER rumor, innuendo, and outright deceit... over neutral news sources
That's true -- William Buckley, Irving Kristol, all gone.
The new round of "conservatives" -- Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, Glen Beck -- just make things up. They got end-of-life counseling taken out of the health care bill by calling it "death panels," for example. Really shameless.
Re:conservatives (Score:3, Insightful)
The GOP's real base are rich people who want to stay rich and don't care who they fuck over to do it.
So they manipulate the stupid, who in this country happen to be blue-collar white males who listen to country music and believe Jesus will usher them into Heaven, to vote for Conservative candidates, who proceed to pass laws that favor the rich people against everyone else, including the voters they conned.
The Democrats actually believe the things they run on, and since it's not so carefully constructed the disorganization of the ideas can lead to fractioning of the voters who aren't in the GOP camp.
So, despite the fact that people who don't benefit from GOP-created legislation outnumber those who do by a vast margin, the GOP has succeeded in dividing the country almost in half and disrupting the other half's focus, keeping the plutocracy in power.
Also, they're starting to run candidates in Democratic primaries, something they couldn't do before because they couldn't funnel enough money to them to make them viable. Thank the John Roberts/Alice In Wonderland Supreme Court for that.
Re:conservatives (Score:2, Insightful)
If you ever bother to check, The Dems aren't proposing increasing taxes on the rich and lowering taxes on the poor, they're suggesting raising taxes on the rich and raising different taxes on the poor.
Or do you really think Social Security and Medicare are going to become solvent with just taxes on the rich?
Re:Yes, and so does the DNC (Score:3, Insightful)
Ah, truly a logical argument at it's finest: the statement with absolutely no supporting evidence. Truthiness in its purest form. I'm sure you'll be modded +5 insightful in no time!
Re:conservatives (Score:5, Insightful)
Well at the moment they're campaigning on fiscal policy while at the same time urging that the Bush top-bracket tax cuts be made permanent. Plus during the last election cycle they were running on eliminating the top tax bracket entirely - putting ME in the same tax bracket as Bill Gates and Warren Buffett.
I have a slightly different view...
The inequity of distribution of income and wealth is at the highest point since the 1920's. I say simply this: The "ordinary economy", the part where people buy and sell goods and services, is broken. There simply isn't enough money in the ordinary economy for it to work right. As a side effect, there's too much fluid money in the "investment economy", so when too many investors rush into some sector or another, they generate a bubble. After all, inflation is too much money chasing too few goods, and that can hold for "investment goods" as well as real goods. Plus when too much investment money goes into some commodity or other, (like crude oil) that investment money can drive the price up regardless of the consumption-drive supply and demand.
The economy will continue to be broken until more money moves into the ordinary economy.
It doesn't matter if American executives, wealthy, elite, etc deserve every cent they have, and more besides.
It doesn't matter if I'm "supposed" to surrender my middle-class status, take a 2/3 (or more) pay cut, and live on an Indian or South American style salary.
It doesn't matter if the minimum wage should go away, the those people live on far less.
The reality is that:
American executives, wealthy, elite, etc spend very little compared to their wealth and income.
I don't trust the long-term prospects of my job, so while I'm still comfortable, I'm not about to take out a loan for a big-ticket item.
When you have to decide between food and clothing, or shelter and medical care, you do only what you have to, and what you can.
None of this drives economic recovery.
If the American executives, wealthy, elite, etc had a little less, it would make no difference to their lives. Their egos would take a slight bruising in their investment portfolios.
If I had more long-term confidence in my job, I'd finance a car. My 12 year old Ford is a little long-in-the-tooth, and getting to be unreliable.
If someone deciding between food and clothing had more money, he'd buy both.
This isn't principle, it's pragmatism. Notice that I haven't really said anything about who deserves what, though there is a tone to what I've written. It's just a simple matter of what it takes to make the economy work. Until money "moves down" the economy will continue to be in the doldrums. But unfortunately there's no acceptable way to "move money down", because that's "wealth transfer" and thereby evil. Of course when wealth transfers up, as has happened faster since 1980, that's "natural" and "good". But we've transferred so much money up, that those below haven't got enough to make the economy work, any more.
The other side of this is that Obama did nothing to fix this problem. None of what he did did a thing to affect the distribution of wealth and income in the country. Perhaps running the printing press for the stimulus and bailouts has "created" extra cash, though all things told, I'm not sure that more of that money really went "down" with the stimulus than went "up" with the bailouts.
Nor am I entirely against supply-side solutions - they have their place. It's just that supply-side solutions aren't universally applicable, and this is one place where they're not. I'll moderate that a bit, and say that I'm in favor of incentives for small businesses, even at this point.
it really is true (Score:4, Insightful)
intelligent conservatism has died
in its wake, these boorish bleacher creatures, without honesty and without intelligence
they somehow believe cheering for their team is more important than fact-based examination of the issues
their minds are closed, their mouths are wide open, and this country will suffer for their loud low iq zombiehood
Re:conservatives (Score:5, Insightful)
While the moral basis undoubtedly contributes I wouldn't underestimate the impact of fiscal policy. There's a reason why Republicans lose when they start spending money irresponsibly ...
Yes, Reagan got crushed in '84 after all that irresponsible defence spending that ballooned the size of the government like never before. And then, after the Star Wars debacle, his planned successor in Bush Sr. was again crushed at the polls in '88. And even then they didn't learn their lessons, with Bush Jr. starting an unnecessary war in Iraq that cost billions. Naturally he was promptly heaved from office in 2004 as one would expect.
Re:Your kidding, right? (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is not "who", but rather "what".
When the Republicans got a majority in the Supreme Court and the first thing these supposedly "originalists" do is overturn a century worth of precedent and come up with an entirely new definition of what a "person" is, creating an entirely new category of rights for corporations, the issue is not about "free speech" at all. It's about being able to purchase power, pure and simple. It's about commerce where the commercial product is political power.
There were corporations, even very big corporations, around at the time of the framing of our Constitution. It would have been very easy to establish the same rights for corporations in the first Amendment than those established for people. Yet it was not done and for good reason.
The Citizens United case was designed for the current election alone. Future courts will look on it like we look at Plessy v. Ferguson today: as an embarrassing decision, created by second rate ideological justices. Remember John Roberts' assertion that he would be just an "umpire, calling balls and strikes". Well Citizens United wasn't "calling balls and strikes" it was shortening the base path for the rich and powerful. It was juicing the ball only when Republicans were up to bat. Citizens United in one decision completed the transformation of the United States into a corporate fascism. It doesn't matter who's president, or who has congress any more, because 5 activist judges nullified the US Constitution.
Re:For the rest of the World (Score:2, Insightful)
Google also seems to indicate, with trivial searches that ...
Democrats lie about their political opponents. Compared to the usual lies, this is quite tame.
In general, people lie about political opponents ... And for things like manufacturing grassroots campaigns, there's even a verb in common use : "astroturfing". You wouldn't believe how common it is world wide (ever notice how "anti-government protests" in pakistan have english placards ... When hardly anyone there even speaks English ...)
Re:i don't know that link domain (Score:4, Insightful)
Your link doesn't seem to refute the story, in fact it seems to strengthen it. From the link:
This guy seems proud of the fact that the GOP was able to buy him for NOTHING. Just the thought of money was enough to buy him.
Re:Your kidding, right? (Score:4, Insightful)
First, why should it matter who exercises free speech? Why should there be limits on who can? Let alone why are some groups given exceptions from the law specifically in the bill?
Corporations are not people and have no need to exercise 'free speech', especially when they're expecting returns on their money spent after the elections.
Corporations trying to influence politics to their own end by spending part of their profits and then expecting returns after elections need not be protected by 'free speech' laws. The exceptions were put in place to appease Republicans so that they might vote for this bill. Something is better than nothing.
Re:No viable 3rd party. (Score:3, Insightful)
and there never will be with this attitude. The Democrats and Republicans have set up this defeatist attitude and revel every time it is expressed.
It really is simple, its called getting off your butt and putting in real time. Far too many people are satisfied thumping their chest here on message boards but damn, ask them to make a few calls, put out some Vote posters, and suddenly they don't have time.
Well you get out of it as much as you put into it.
Not enough to say "But they do it too!" (Score:2, Insightful)
To all the people who are ostensibly conservative, stop trying to point out "but but, they do it too."
This sort of behavior shouldn't be tolerated by conservatives, and it shouldn't be whitewashed as "well everybody does it."
It's an ethical violation to not *at least* disclose that you're being supported by a campaign when you're writing posts to support that campaign. The people doing it are categorically, unequivocally, unabashedly wrong to be doing it, regardless of which party or candidate they're supporting.
If you tolerate it as a tactic in support of your own ideology, how can you criticize someone else for employing the same tactics?
Re:conservatives (Score:4, Insightful)
Finally, incomes are highly correllated with high land value areas so costs of living are usually much higher (with most of the real benefit (economic profits) flowing to the well established land owners surrounding those high land value cities. Most of these land owners are high asset but low income folks again.
Sure, but even after you adjust for cost of living, someone who makes $250k/year working in Manhattan still makes vastly more money a year (or has more disposable income, or however you would like to look at it) than most Americans, even if they're not living in mansions or anything.
I think at some point you have to still call that rich, or you're left with a definition of middle class that encompasses virtually everyone. I don't think that would be useful.
Re:Your kidding, right? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:conservatives (Score:5, Insightful)
I see your English comprehension isn't that good. I'll use small words:
Jon Stewart is not the person that claimed he funded terrorists. Fox News did. Jon merely pointed out that that the 'evil prince' was the second largest News Corp. shareholder and thus if he really was funding terrorists, then watching Fox News would fund terrorists.
The Democratic Party also herds bloggers (Score:1, Insightful)
It's always been well known that the Republican Party coordinated the work of a lot of conservative bloggers. Somehow, it goes less well noticed that the Democratic Party does the same thing, although it got off to a late start.
A significant problem in political blogging is that in order to attract a readership, a blog must be frequently cited on other popular blogs. Once a blog is cut out of the loop, it's finished.
There were a number of left-leaning blogs I used to follow regularly, that would complain of the dominance of "A-list blogs," which were more or less conventionally liberal Democratic Party supporters, that would consistently toe the Democrat line, and would pay short shrift to issues of gender, race, and sexuality. The A-list bloggers, generally straight white young men, would regularly link to each other, would rarely link to blogs written by talented writers who were women, people of color, or sexual minorities, and would close ranks to resist criticisms of their writing or of the Democratic Party from that quarter.
In early 2004, this changed sharply. Suddenly, a subset of those bloggers were being invited to conferences with Democratic Party officials, offered vacations in exchange for favorable blog posts, and were subscribing to liberal email lists that directed them on what topics to blog about -- exactly on the model of Republican conservative bloggers. Suddenly, there was a split in the community of left bloggers, as those that had been less critical of the Democratic Party were drawn in to active support of it. Their criticisms of the Democratic Party completely ceased, they began supporting the war in Iraq, and they began condemning former allies for their criticisms of liberal politics from the left. In short, a subset of the B-list bloggers was promoted into the A-list, which meant that they were working for the Democratic Party, and actively opposed to left criticism of the Democratic Party. Whether they were directly paid isn't really so much the central issue. The net effect was that a lot of talented writers, in particular women of color, gave up on political blogging entirely.
The Democratic Party's role in US politics has long been to break up and silence any political movements on the left. This was particularly noticeable in 2000, when it methodically demolished the US wing of the anti-globalization movement, and in 2004, when it broke up the anti-war movement.
Re:Um (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:lol (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:lol (Score:2, Insightful)
It's not fair , It should be illegal, where's my cut? - These phrases sound familiar?
- Dan.
Re:conservatives (Score:2, Insightful)
Wow, your fingers are deep in your ears, aren't they? The democrats are in power. Currently, if a bill fails, it's because some democrats don't support it.
Re:Taxes (Score:3, Insightful)
If you ever bother to check, The Dems aren't proposing increasing taxes on the rich and lowering taxes on the poor, they're suggesting raising taxes on the rich and raising different taxes on the poor.
The raising/lowering taxes on the rich/poor is accurate if the total taxes required are equal. Unfortunately, we have a national debt that needs to be paid down and raising taxes are unavoidable. In that situation, raising taxes for everyone but the most destitute is unavoidable, but should be raised on a curve so as to minimize the pain as much as possible based on your ability to pay. I was just simplifying the concept.
Re:conservatives (Score:3, Insightful)
Amen.
We could argue about who 'deserves' what, and it's pretty easy to point out all the ways in which the government is deliberately designed to make money go upward, but that's not the issue at all.
To have a functioning economy, people must have money. All people, or almost all.
For a decade, people got less and less money. Wages were the same, more people were out of work, and inflation continued to happen, so everyone got poorer.
Luckily, they could all borrow endlessly, because that works forever...oh, SHIT. The economy just melted.
Nor am I entirely against supply-side solutions - they have their place.
I am entirely against them, as no one has ever managed to explain to me how the rich having more personal money results in businesses spending more. That is really total nonsense when you think about it. How does that work...do rich people demand lower salaries when taxes go down? (Which, um, is easily disprovable by the past decade.)
The might possibly some supply-side argument to corporate taxes, but the idea that there's any to personal tax is such utter nonsense that anyone promoting it, in a sane world, would be laughed out of the room.
The other side of this is that Obama did nothing to fix this problem. None of what he did did a thing to affect the distribution of wealth and income in the country.
I don't blame Obama for that, I blame the asshat Democrats in the Senate and House who can't get anything done because, apparently, now we've decided to let the minority dictate everything.
I blame Obama because he hasn't set the agenda in that direction, but I suspected that we were getting Clinton 2.0 when we elected him to start with, so I'm not surprised.
Re:conservatives (Score:3, Insightful)
Supposing for a moment that I agree with you (I don't, but let's put that aside):
Perhaps the sort of people who vote for republicans beleive that republicans will try to enact policies which are inline with their own sense of what is just, not what they think will be most lucrative of beneficial to them personally.
You seem to concede as much with your second point, but I'll expound on it a bit in the form of a question:
If conservative voters truly beleive that liberals are immoral, unethical, and tirelessly work to destroy things conservatives think are important, how would the liberal argument that they are "better" for the average republican voter be viewed as anything other than bribery by the forces of irredeemable evil?
If your conjecture is that conservative voters are simpletons who see things in old-fashioned terms like "good and evil", and are too stubborn to just accept what the smart folks tell them will make them better off, why should you be surprised that they then vote according to your characterizations?
Re:conservatives (Score:2, Insightful)
Why all the sympathy for businesses? Aren't they supposed to be scrappy and innovative? I can understand the healthcare burden, but payroll is in a separate accounting category than profits...
Re:conservatives (Score:2, Insightful)
The idea that there is no liberal tendency in the MSM is fairly generous to human nature, given that the vast majority of journalists (and people in media) tend to vote Democrat. Now, granted, if you are far enough left you will view mainstream Democrats as "conservative," but if (as in the grandparent) you want to talk about anecdotes, there are plenty to spin about--when was the last time you saw a positive story on gun rights? Want to check the statistics on positive vs. negative statements made about Obama during the campaign? (certain late night comedy shows barely touched him with a single barb)
If from the perspective of your politics it makes you feel better, call it center-left rather than liberal. But don't be disingenuous about the left having some reasonable advantage in respect to journalistic outlets. (You won't see me disclaiming that talk radio is quite conservative.)
Re:conservatives (Score:3, Insightful)
And you don't seem to realize that the works of the individual are built upon the foundation of society. They are not achieved in a vacuum and their fruits are not born in a vacuum.
Your whole manifesto (well, Rand's, really) is based on the false assumption that, somehow, a producer magically produces and the efforts and sacrifices of others haven't made it possible.
Remove that faulty assumption and the whole house of cards not only collapses but seems silly.
Re:conservatives (Score:5, Insightful)
You didn't watch the video.
Fox Claimed that because the mosque was funded by someone they referred to as an evil terrorist, that by association the mosque was a victory for terrorists.
Stewart pointed out, in what he said was a stupid and childish game, that Fox News is funded by the same person that they referred to as an evil terrorist, and that if you used the _SAME_ Logic fox news used to claim the mosque was funded by an evil terrorist, then Fox News is funded by an evil terrorist.
Fox, in essence, bashed themselves by claiming that they (Fox News) were funded by Evil Terrorist funders. BUT only if you applied the same logic that they used to describe the Mosque in question.
It is called Satire, seriously, The Daily Show used to come on after a program were puppets made crank phone calls.
Re:Your kidding, right? (Score:4, Insightful)
When the Republicans got a majority in the Supreme Court and the first thing these supposedly "originalists" do is overturn a century worth of precedent and come up with an entirely new definition of what a "person" is, creating an entirely new category of rights for corporations
[...]
The Citizens United case was designed for the current election alone.
So we're speaking of the Citizens United v. FEC [wikipedia.org] case? Then I'll need to correct your gross error here. First, the case upheld the "century worth of precedent". McCain-Feingold was bad law and the abridgment of freedom of speech for groups of people was one of the reasons why. Second, why shouldn't a group of people have freedom of speech just like individuals? An individual could have done what Citizens United was brought into court for.
I don't know why this stupidity is so popular. Keep in mind that we had corporate personhood for more than a century (the earliest cases go back almost to the dawn of the Republic). It hasn't been a problem until someone needed to sell a book [amazon.com] on it.
Re:Your kidding, right? (Score:4, Insightful)
Groups of people do have rights. Each member of the group has rights, thus the group has those rights. The "group" should not have additional rights.
Further, maybe you don't know the definition of "corporation", but a "corporation" is not a "group of people". A corporation is a legal entity by which a business owner can trade personal liability for government oversight via regulation. That's it. A corporation is a fancier "DBA". Shareholders are not a "corporation". The CEO and board of directors is not a "corporation". The people who own or work for a corporation are not a "corporation". A corporation can not vote in an election. A corporation cannot run for office. Why do we pick and choose which rights the "corporation" gets and say, "they don't have those rights, but they should have the right to participate in elections financially"? Shortly after the first of the activist judges on the court, Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, Alito leave, Citizens United will be overturned. It is not just bad law, it's laughable law.
And McCain-Feingold may well have been as you say "bad law", but the issue of limiting corporate campaign spending was not part of the part that made it bad law. There is no question however, that Congress certainly has the power constitutionally to pass laws that regulate campaign financing. Otherwise, the personal limit would have fallen long ago. I'm not sure what part of McCain-Feingold you think is bad law, and I'm guessing that you wouldn't know if it hit you in the face because Hugh Hewitt never got that specific on the radio. Maybe you could hit Wikipedia and let us know which part of McCain-Feingold you deem to be "bad law"?
I will admit, that you're parroting smarter sources than the ones that are normally parroted by the "conservatives" around here but you're still wrong.
Oh and we have not had "corporate personhood" for more than a century. Show me where a corporation got married, or had a child, or ran for office or
Re:conservatives (Score:1, Insightful)
I have a slightly different point of view. Knew it would only take 10 seconds of googling to find it.
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2007/03/barstool-tax-policy.html [blogspot.com]
The moral. MANY as in nearly half the current population does not pay any taxes. Nearly 40% GET money. Free glorious money/programs/food/etc. Is it enough to kick back at the pool on? Hell no. It is not meant to be (though many seem to think it should be). We literally pay people to not work. In some cases are better off not having a job. I know a few 'poor' people who do rather well. It is amazing what you can get used to. Just so long as you are willing to ignore any phone call you get from anyone because it may be a creditor. There is a whole 'underground knowledge' on how to game the system. Trust me they have it worked out and are doing very well. I have also known people who truly need these programs. Yet the leaches I find make me want to vomit.
You also have a flawed concept of how our economy creates money. It is not pretty. For example Ron Paul does. Yet his ideas would crash the whole thing and you would be living the south american wages dream in no time. Our economy right now creates money by borrowing from the future. Yep they have loads of cash in the future. It is called an interest rate. If you want to see a wall street banker freek out faster then anything say the word deflation to him. Why? They borrow money. LOTS of money. If you have a mortgage you better hate deflation as well. It is why right now many people are 'upside down' in their mortgage. The housing market is currently deflating. It is also why no one can actually get a loan very easily right now. No one wants to loan out money on something that is worth less than it was yesterday as the collateral is falling in price. As if the person defaults you can not get your money back. Until the property market stabilizes (and the 8k rebate checks only drug the problem out) you will continue to see mass deflation and mass unemployment. Loans are what drive our economy. Many companies have revolving credit lines that run their business. It wasnt always like this. It used to be gold. Which was a fixed size and asset. But some bright econ major figured out you could loan your brains out and borrow from the future and create growth now. Instead of later when you can really afford it. It works for awhile. But it is a ponzi scheme. Eventually it will unwind. Currently congress and the office of the president (and the couple of dozen before him) keep the scheme going. Why? They have borrowed HUGE sums of money from foreign governments. They want those loans (in the form of bonds) to go down in value. That is done thru inflation. Ever wonder why they ride the inflation like it a s&m sub? Thats why.
As to why bubbles form. Its easy TOO much money in the system. In 92-95 we were in the midst of a decent recession. Which was equal to the inflation we had in the 80s. Almost a cossin wave. Then some bright spark in the wall street arena said 'we have too much paper work help us'. They unhooked the laws that protected us since the 1930s. Then congress had a moment of 'lets help everyone buy a home even if they can only marginally afford it'. A perfect storm was created. By 97-98 it almost all flew apart. Hedge funds suddenly had a huge influx of cash and they were using that cash to play dollars against f origin currency. From all these cool new loans they could make. The fed was ontop of that one and it was a 'small' crash and it almost unraveled the very value of the dollar it was also kept very quiet. Then by 2000 we had another crash. The dot com crash. This was created from the same pool of cash but was invested into any 2 bit scheme that came along that had the word internet on it. Another one in 2004 (commodities). Then another in 2007-2008 (commodities and housing loans). Each one bigger than the previous. There was/i