Plotting a Coup In the Internet Age 183
chrb writes "The Guardian is reporting on the attempts of an exiled Sheikh to regain power in a bloodless coup. The plot, led by British solicitor Peter Cathcart, involves the use of Washington political lobbyists, PR agencies writing fake blogs and Twitter accounts, and a newspaper advertising campaign in the US. The coup attempt is remarkable in its choice of modern communications and political lobbying, rather than the traditional resort to violence."
Re:Colonel Cathcart (Score:3, Insightful)
I thought of Ender's brother
It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbying? (Score:5, Insightful)
Can we finally close this legal loophole? There's no reason why lawmakers should be allowed to take money from non-US citizens, and particularly from other countries. Only US Citizens can vote in elections; there's no reason why other countries and non-citizens should be able to influence how citizens vote, or dictate our foreign policy.
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:5, Insightful)
An outright ban on lobbying would be nice in any case.
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:4, Insightful)
yah! Better yet, how about an outright ban on campaign contributions?
"Vote with your wallet" should be reserved for consumer activities.
Re:Colonel Cathcart (Score:1, Insightful)
nope, I tought of GWB
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:2, Insightful)
I know we're supposed to hate corporations, lobbyists, etc, but I wish that people would stop and think about what they're saying.
Historically wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
The coup attempt is remarkable in its choice of modern communications and political lobbying, rather than the traditional resort to violence
How is this unique? History has been dotted with bloodless revolutions, The Glorious Revolution in England, the mostly-peaceful resistance to the 1991 soviet coup attempt, resistance to the salt laws in India, etc.
Heck, the majority of successful revolutions have been bloodless. Those that involve wars and the such usually have to fight another war or conflict to solidify the victory. Had the American Revolution been bloodless chances are the War of 1812 wouldn't have happened, etc.
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:4, Insightful)
Right; I'm not saying to ban lobbying, simply, ban lobbying by those who can't vote in our country. To bring up the old Nazi defense, how would things have turned out in WW2 if the Nazis had dumped a bunch of money into US lobbying to win support for Germany in the war? Or at least delayed it until they'd occupied Britain and Sweden?
That's an extreme point of view, but on a smaller scale, Israel dumps a huge amount of money into our political system, and in return they get $100 for every $1 they spend on lobbying in terms of foreign aid, $15 billion dollars worth of "military aid money", in addition to discounts on US military hardware and preferential treatment on military equipment sales to the US government.
We do help out a lot of smaller countries financially and send aid, but it is nowhere near what we send to Israel, and Israel's funding on lobbying reflects that. The whitehouse has been mum on this whole flotilla disaster so far, and while they've been more vocal lately, it's generally very muted response in general.
There's no reason why you can't have lobbying, it's a good system that definitely gets abused, but in a two party system you definitely need lobbying so that special interest groups like PETA, Pro-Lifers, Pro-Choicers, Gun Control, NRA, Socialized Medicine-ites, "Hands off my Medicare!"-ers and every other group out there can have their say in Washington. By no means end lobbying outright.... just limit it to domestic and foreign policy that is actually beneficial to our country, not policies that are detrimental to the USA.
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:4, Insightful)
Better yet, how about an outright ban on campaign contributions?
So you'd limit lobbying to organizations powerful enough to directly support a candidate, such as TV stations, newspapers, and organizations who can open their own TV stations and newspapers?
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:3, Insightful)
1) "I represent many large oil companies, and we think approach X would be beneficial to not only our interests but the interests of the general public."
2) "I represent many large oil companies, and we think approach X would be beneficial to not only our interests but the interests of the general public. And here's a check for a hundred thousand dollars."
You really don't see a problem with this?
that's UAE's internal matter (Score:3, Insightful)
The article says the champaign claims that UAE "a rogue state and gateway for Iran", while it's conveniently forgotten that before 2003 there was already Al-Qaeda money in transit there.
The sheik-whatever seems to be playing the US fears towards Iran too, that's very convenient.
Most worrying, is the fact the presence of "regime change" referring to the attempt of that sheik's return, while expecting support from the US (since he's sympathetic to that country). Sounds familiar?
Nowhere in the article I could see the wishes of UAE's people being considered. But that's a minor detail, it seems.
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:5, Insightful)
we will never keep money out of politics. there is just too many ways to give gifts, favors, contributions, bribes, you name it.
There we go again. Existence proofs only work if the people you're talking to as willing to look at the proof. Listen up Americans, there's plenty of other civilized countries around the world that send politicians to jail for taking gifts, favors, contributions and bribes. Wake up and demand accountability.
Your strawman looks quite flammable (Score:4, Insightful)
Your statement makes no logical sense. Any form of government could ban lobbying for any number of reasons.
There's a term for government that is run by the majority population. It's called a democracy, and if it's people choose, they can ban lobbying. And if that doesn't work, they can bring it back.
A country run by lobbyists paid by the rich is called a plutocracy, and while not quite as bad as some dictatorships, is still highly undesirable if you have any interest in equality before the law. I'd say paid lobbyists distort the government that's supposed to represent the will of the majority of americans, since lobbyist access is wealth dependent.
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:5, Insightful)
a bribe is a bribe. Splitting hairs and calling it a "campaign contribution" is a symptom of a sick society. If you're a politician and you're receiving any incoming beyond what your position pays you, you're accepting bribes. The possibly permissible exception is if you own shares in a company, in which case you need to keep away from anything which may be a conflict of interest. And no, it doesn't matter if you set up a shell company to receive the payment, or it's your political party that is receiving the payment, or it's your wife or your friends that are receiving the payment.
Nothing *eliminates* corruption. You can only minimize it. it's like the 'war on drugs' in that respect.
Wow, you really don't get it do you? Every other civilized country in the world has done it. Corruption is headline news in these countries. The US is not the norm, it's the sick exception.
Is a corporation foreign? What about PR? (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's assume we ban campaign donations from foreign individuals -- can they give money to citizens who may be sympathetic to their cause? Or organizations formed inside the U.S.?
What about, say, BP, which, though of foreign origination, is a legally recognized entity inside the U.S.? Now that the Citizens United Ruling [scotuswiki.com] has come down, what kind of law will you pass to keep them from spending as money as they like getting people who are sympathetic to them elected this fall?
Even if you manage some way to fence out campaign donations flowing through citizens and businesses -- how will you keep them from spending huge amounts of money on PR firms? Without creating an highly regulated press and broadcast industry... and preserving internet freedoms?
I'm with you that these things are all real and significant problems, worthy of some serious thought about how to fix. I'm just trying to point out that even apparently simply fixes like the idea of banning foreign campaign contributions are harder than they might seem to implement. The problem of the power of money is a deep, deep topic.
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:3, Insightful)
The U.S should adopt election laws like the ones we have up here in Canada. Take a look at the Federal Accountability Act [elections.ca].
Here are some key points:
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:4, Insightful)
So you'd ban all foreign lobbying, not just what appears detrimental to the country? That makes more sense.
However, it is often incredibly difficult to separate domestic from foreign. In Check Point, for example, a foreign company (HQ in Israel), or a domestic company (shares traded on the NASDAQ, most share owners probably US entities)? What about IBM (HQ in the US and the majority of employees in other countries, shared publicly traded)?
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:5, Insightful)
Neato Idea. That's awesome. Seriously, not trolling here. Plain. Fucking. Awesomeness. If I could choose between You and bottled lightning, I would choose you.
So we have established:
1) Your Awesome.
2) You clearly have more morality in your fingernail (any one of them) than any politician in Washington.
Now..... let's start...
We need to make it a crime to be "taking gifts, favors, contributions and bribes" if you hold political office.... Hmmmm....
Okay. I'll fire up my word processor of +10 Legal Lawyerin' and get to work on making the law and you get out there and explain to people what we are trying to accomplish and secure enough votes so we have a majority of the US and can get the law enacted.
Huh? What do you mean we can't do that? We're a democracy! WTF! Reprawhatsits?
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh.. Representative Democracy. We elect those people and they are supposed to represent us. Wellll... it seems like a catch-22 here. They won't vote the law in, and we can't make the law ourselves..
Wait... We can get you elected and have you propose the law and change things right?
Let's take over a small state with enough like minded people and get you into the Senate. The people need your common sense and decency based approach to government and politics.
********************
a few years pass
********************
Senate: "The Senate floor will recognize the junior member QuantumG from the State of Complete-Awesomeness (we managed to rename Idaho or some shit)"
QuantumG: "I propose a law criminalizing the acceptance of any campaign contributions, material items, gifts, bribes, or sexual favors from willing pages in a completely non-homosexual manner"
Senate: (hushed) "We have a turd in the punchbowl.. repeat ... turd in the punchbowl"
*******************
Do you seriously wonder at all why most Americans are either a) Completely disillusioned and apathetic (the smart ones), or b) Raving fucking lunatics screaming at the top of their lungs about how the other side is evil, bruises fruit on sight, and beats small children?
Even the most idealistic and decent people will be tainted by government within the first few months and you can't get shit done till you have been in Washington for years. It's seniority and it is just a huge boys club up there. You wait, Al Franken will turn into Palpatine given enough time.
Wake Up?
I am awake. I also have no power to change a god damn thing. It does not matter who I vote for, it does not matter if the person I voted for is a good person either, nothing good will come from anything in government.
We have not been represented in forever. The last thing I really remember that was profoundly good and representative of our collective will (most of us) was civil rights. Back to bullshit as usual after that.
Those that have the power right now are only going to grant, or delegate, that power to like minded people willing to promulgate their views. You seem to think that if enough Buddhist Monks were to join the Yakuza that in a few years the Yakuza would be all peaceful, shiny, and happy and shit. No. You would have monks with tainted souls and bad Karma.
I just hope we don't turn into a police state within my lifetime so I don't have to get in better shape and start putting bullets through storm troopers heads. I am too old and tired at this point to start and participate in the inevitable revolution to come.
Yes, I am hopelessly cynical and disillusioned with government and politics, and deservedly so. It's a fucking circus, has been my whole life, and will continue to be one. It has only serviced the agendas of the powerful and influential (corporations) and consistently shafted the people. My disillusionmen
Stranger than fiction (Score:3, Insightful)
Business as usual (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:that's UAE's internal matter (Score:2, Insightful)
I agree with you completely. Seems that this enterprising man discovered that if you can claim your country has connections to terrorism, Iran, being roguish, and is otherwise a junior member of the Axis of Evil then you can get the US ad Britain to help you overthrow the government. As you said, playing off the fears of the US. We have no business being involved with a spoiled baby who is mad because the family cut off his 'trust fund'.
We had a bloodless coup in the United States (Score:2, Insightful)
in 2000, done through the courts and influence on the media. It was called Bush v. Gore.
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:1, Insightful)
To bring up the old Nazi defense, how would things have turned out in WW2 if the Nazis had dumped a bunch of money into US lobbying to win support for Germany in the war?
They did. Didn't work out so hot for them.
but on a smaller scale, Israel dumps a huge amount of money into our political system,
Read your history... Israel is there because the Allies won the war. Of course we're in bed with them... we wouldn't want to be thought to be anti-Semitic, now would we? And THAT type of accusation holds a HELL of a lot more political clout than some cash floating around.
The whitehouse has been mum on this whole flotilla disaster so far
Because we have one of our ALLIES having a dispute with another one of our ALLIES. It's obvious you don't understand the complexities of our relationship with Turkey & Israel, so I'd suggest that instead of getting your opinions spoon-fed to you from your 24 hour news channel, you spend that time studying history and foreign politics.
If you REALLY want to fix the problems with lobbying, then change the rules so people aren't allowed to save places in line for other people.
By no means end lobbying outright.... just limit it to domestic and foreign policy
Uhhh what? Would you mind filling the rest of us in on what kind of policy is neither foreign nor domestic? And don't say religious, we already have that one excluded.
Besides, this little thing called the Constitution prevents any such limitations.
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:3, Insightful)
So if my best friend is running for political office, I can't buy him a birthday gift, or even a drink at the bar, because that would be corruption & bribery under your definition.
Fallacy spotted. Please contribute to the debate with real arguments, thank you.
Wow, you really have your head up your ass, don't you? Every other civilized country in the world has enacted anti-corruption laws which have loopholes.
I'd be delighted if you could actually show me those loopholes in european countries. We have our fair share of corrupt politician over here, but they don't use any loopholes. They falsify, and when they get caught, they (hopefully) go to jail. There is no intended loophole.
So if I own a holding company, which in turns owns two other companies of mine, I am not allowed to receive any money from MY company.
If the company is yours, there is no problem in you perceiving money from it. There is however a potential problem of conflict of interests that will have to be watched by an independent commission should you be elected.
The problem with many American people is that they're so proud of the U.S.A. that they will defend it tooth and nail, even in its utmost illogical and unjust aspects and feel threatened every time some guy points out the idiocy of some parts of their system. Every country has its defects, and some that are under the international spotlight have theirs more exposed than others. Get used to it.
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:1, Insightful)
Hate to break it to you but total 24 hour news viewership peaked at around 4 million people several years ago, over a third of whom live inside the beltline, and the remaining majority are either retired or working in journalism.
We have zero reason to be allied with Israel fifty years later and it's obvious our relations are fading quickly. The average citizen's age in Israel is barely 30 years old and most of their population was born in the 1980's. WW2 is rapidly becoming less of a distant memory and simply a piece of history. Israel in this day and age is more of a political liability these days than they are an ally.
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:4, Insightful)
The rational person understands that changing the world is unlikely to succeed, and gives up. Thus the world is changed by the irrational.
Re:It's legal for foreign money to be spent lobbyi (Score:2, Insightful)
You have enormous power. You are just afraid to exercise it.