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House Calls For Hearing On Stock Market "Glitch" 180

Posted by timothy
from the hands-on-the-tables-gentlemen dept.
Lucas123 writes "The House Financial Services securities subcommittee plans to hold a hearing next Tuesday to examine what caused the US stock market to plunge almost 1,000 points in a half hour Thursday, and it called on the SEC to investigate possible problems with computer algorithms that may have exacerbated a human order-entry error and led to the precipitous drop. 'Reports have surfaced that much of this movement was potentially as a result of a computer glitch,' Committee Chairman Kanjorski said. 'We cannot allow a technological error to spook the markets and cause panic. This is unacceptable. In this day and age and with the use of such complex technology, we should be able to make sure that our financial markets are effectively monitored and investors are protected.'"
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House Calls For Hearing On Stock Market "Glitch"

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  • Its strange. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by drolli (522659) on Saturday May 08, 2010 @08:19AM (#32137744) Journal

    I mean.. they *have* the logs, i hope. I mean they *have* some software anyway which does data-mining to analyze for unusual things....

  • Well... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by boliboboli (1447659) on Saturday May 08, 2010 @08:19AM (#32137746)
    It doesn't take a subcommittee hearing to figure out that people are finicky and the system is remarkably fragile.
  • Protection... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by noodler (724788) on Saturday May 08, 2010 @08:36AM (#32137806)

    "This is unacceptable. In this day and age and with the use of such complex technology, we should be able to make sure that our financial markets are effectively monitored and investors are protected." ... because protectig investors is more important than protecting the economy.

  • by joostje (126457) on Saturday May 08, 2010 @08:47AM (#32137858)
    So NASDAQ cancelled all trades the more 60% off of the stock's price [cnn.com].

    Who decides that? And what happens to a smart invester that buys stock at $0.01 that usually trades at $40, to quickly later sell it at $30? Will the $0.01 buys be cancelled, but the $30 sells not be cancelled? But that would leave you with a short position, having to buy them back at $40. May be very expensive.

  • Re:Well... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Agarax (864558) on Saturday May 08, 2010 @09:03AM (#32137936)

    Are you suggesting we shouldn't have a hearing for it?

    All hearings are these days is a convoluted way for politicos to take cheap shots at someone to boost their popularity at home.

  • Re:Its strange. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Sponge Bath (413667) on Saturday May 08, 2010 @09:40AM (#32138140)
    They have logs of transactions, but not the intent or trigger behind those transactions. That will take some investigation.
  • Re:Well... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by CowboyBob500 (580695) on Saturday May 08, 2010 @09:41AM (#32138152) Homepage
    Exactly. Basically it seems to boil down to the fact that the traders don't actually have a clue how it all works. It's so computerised now with such complex algorithms, that if the market moves in anyway they all have to follow like sheep for fear of getting caught with their pants down. And things are getting worse.

    I see two solutions:-

    1) Go 100% computerised and just throw in the odd random factor to keep things moving. After all, it's all one big random gamble anyway, may as well just admit it.
    2) Rip out all the computers and have the traders actually buy and sell real tangible things again.
  • by h00manist (800926) on Saturday May 08, 2010 @10:06AM (#32138318) Journal
    Games have rules, strategies, inspectors, and punishment too. Nobody wants to admit it, but these markets are full of shams at all levels -- "legislation and regulation" is just enough to keep the whole game from collapsing, not to make it honest. These "glitches", "crashes", and "abuses" provide occasional glimpses of a not-so-welcome, much deeper iceberg reality. End naive belief, and see overall it's unsustainable long-term, as more profit and waste comes out, and less rational, productive labor goes in. It's not work, economy, and productivity for years, just money gaming. Play according to greed and ability. Enron, Arthur Anderson, Madoff, "subprime" investors, etc were caught in their bluff, but many, many others continue just fine, thank you. But don't let the masses discover it has no foundation, or they will pull out what holds it up - their belief it it, which deposits follow. But marketing works wonders, and the show goes on. Until the structure collapses under it's own weight, or there is no money in the world left to keep pumping in. In the 'cold war' there were two sides, not really so different. One fell under it's own weight of lies. The other stands, so far. With no "social superstructure", there will still be human beings, and their minds and abilities, good or not.
  • by hedwards (940851) on Saturday May 08, 2010 @10:11AM (#32138348)
    Oddly enough, in this case the Politician would be on the right side. Wall street firms make most of their money by swindling. Excessive fees, buying/selling with knowledge of the future price, trading off market and sweet heart deals are rampant. It is oddly ironic that you still get the same idiots that decry anti-trust actions as being jealous of success when the success itself is based upon gaming the system in ways that aren't available to the general public and are indeed grossly anti-competitive.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 08, 2010 @10:21AM (#32138404)

    You are exactly right. The later sale would potentially NOT be cancelled if deemed "fair" and you would be left short from a horrible position. They will not "roll-back" subsequent transactions.

    If you are fishing for out-of-market orders like that and think that they might be broken by the exchange then simply do not cover your position until a ruling is made. If you are buying at $0.01 then your downside is VERY limited. :) The exchanges only breaking trades that are 60% away or more is pretty lenient when the market was only (only being relative here) ~10% down during the worst part. However, it was also noted that the exchanges had discretion to break other trades that they felt were sufficiently out-of-market.

    The real people who got screwed are the retail guys who had stop orders out there an got stopped out of positions are awful prices, only to have the market come right back up.

  • Re:Protection... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Richard_at_work (517087) <richardpriceNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Saturday May 08, 2010 @10:41AM (#32138548)
    What do you think the economy is made up of? Investors aren't just the evil 'banker' - anyone holding a pension or a savings account is also an investor.
  • by nschubach (922175) on Saturday May 08, 2010 @10:43AM (#32138562) Journal

    It's something for the politicians to do to continue painting a big red X on Wall Street so they can take it over and control it themselves. I'm beginning to think Congress' job is to take over things and run them in a constant state of deficient funds.

  • by russotto (537200) on Saturday May 08, 2010 @11:32AM (#32138954) Journal

    Stop-losses are a way for people with regular jobs to mitigate the risk of being in the market, so by having "no sympathy" for people doing their darndest hold on to their value is akin to saying they shouldn't have even been in the market in the first place.

    Precisely. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Lots of OTHER people had automatic buy orders kick in when the stocks dropped, and they _made_ money on the deal. Would you be crying for them if the drop turned out to be long-term instead of ephemeral? Volatility is one of the risks of being in the stock market. You bet that any severe drop would be long-term, and you lost. They bet it would be ephemeral, and they won. I bet neither way (I have stock which dropped and recovered on Thursday, but no automatic orders) and came out roughly even.

    If you want to be invested in equity but want someone else to manage the day-to-day risk, there are plenty of companies which will do that for you. You will of course have to accept a lower expected rate of return in exchange for the reduced risk.

  • Re:Well... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by quanticle (843097) on Saturday May 08, 2010 @11:40AM (#32139030) Homepage

    And, on the unlikely event that it *is* true, its all the more reason to HAVE a hearing because anyone can legitimately crash the stock market by simply making a trade.

    You seem to have a misconception as to what the market is. It is simply a room (either physical, electronic, or both) in which buyers and sellers make trades. That's all it is. So, saying its unreasonable for a single trade to crash the stock market is a bit like saying its unreasonable for a single command like "sudo rm -rf /" to crash your computer.

  • Re:Suggestion (Score:4, Insightful)

    by LaughingCoder (914424) on Saturday May 08, 2010 @12:09PM (#32139252)

    I hate it how people want to change the rules of the game whenever their strategy stops working

    First of all, stop losses are not a "strategy", they are a tactic. My strategy is to invest in solid, widely traded, predominantly blue chip companies or in broad indices via ETFs. None of these types of investments should gyrate 10% in value in a matter of minutes because that means hundreds of billions or even trillions of dollars are vanishing and/or appearing. Of course, sometimes oil wells explode and big companies can take an instantaneous hit in their market cap (stop losses salvaged a year's gains on my BP stock just one week ago). Those types of events are fortunately rare, affect one or a small group of companies and are what stop losses are mostly for. Thursday was more like a magician's trick. One minute the trillion dollars is in his left hand. Then a blink later it's in his right. I suppose it doesn't matter to you that the "left hand" was largely small investors like me and the "right hand" was hedge funds, high frequency programmed traders and banks, but to me something smells rotten.

    So, excuse me for saying this, but I want money to be transferred from emotional, panicky investors to calm, smart investors,

    How exactly does micro-penny programmed trading accomplish this? Positions are bought and sold in microseconds skimming micropennies on each share transacted. The computer with the fastest network access wins. This, you assert, is efficient allocation of capital? This is good because it transfers capital from "panicky emotional investors" to people who will better allocate it? What is the real economic benefit of this activity, because one undeniable side affect of it is to distort and destabilize the market.

    I very rarely find myself in favor of increased regulation, but in this case I think the rules do indeed need to be changed. If the majority of people lose faith in the market capital allocation will be severely and negatively impacted.

  • by drsquare (530038) on Saturday May 08, 2010 @12:36PM (#32139450)

    So you punish the small fry that got screwed so the rich guys who made the decision for the government and their friends gain all the benefit?

    Small guys are not making millisecond trades on the stock market. They might have a pension fund, they might invest long-term in a few companies. They're not sitting 16 hours a day at a super computer hooked right into the exchange, looking for things like this as a vulture watches for a wounded animal.

    There's no 'punish' about it, if professional gamblers get their fingers burnt it's simply tough shit.

    In this case, someone wanted to make an instant 300,000% profit by doing and creating nothing, just taking advantage of someone else's mistake.

  • by nycguy (892403) on Saturday May 08, 2010 @01:26PM (#32139854)
    You've apparently never written a trading system. Any such mechanism that is sufficiently stringent to catch the majority of such errors is by definition going to generate a number false positives--legitimately oversized trades that do need to be executed. Pretty soon the traders start clicking "allow" by reflex, and then the check becomes useless. Humans being visual creatures, the one mechanism I've seen work is to show the trader a graph of the stock price with the estimated market impact of the trade they're about to execute. When the image of that squiggly line suddenly going up or down 50% or more hits the trader's brain, it causes a reflexive "uh-oh" that makes them question what they're about to do.

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