Cuba Jails US Worker Handing Out Laptops, Cellphones 400
eldavojohn writes "An American citizen working as a contractor for the United States Agency for International Development has been arrested for giving away laptops and cellphones in Cuba. The intent was to enable activists to connect with each other and spread information of what's happening inside Cuba. From the article: 'Cellphones and laptops are legal in Cuba, though they are new and coveted commodities in a country where the average worker's wage is $15 a month. The Cuban government granted ordinary citizens the right to buy cellphones just last year; they are used mostly for texting, because a 15-minute phone conversation would eat up a day's wages.' A Representative on the House Foreign Affairs Committee said the arrest was 'no surprise' while a human rights watch group cited a report outlining the Cuban Criminal Code offense of 'dangerousness,' which is most likely the one for which this individual was detained. There is at present no way to contact the individual nor official word on why he was detained." The article quotes an actvist with Human Rights Watch who said that "any solution to the contractor's case would probably be political" and that "the Cuban government often provokes a negative reaction in the United States just as [the two] countries begin to move toward more dialogue."
Oops (Score:2, Funny)
There is at present no way to contact the individual nor official word on why he was detained.
He should have kept one of the phones or laptops for himself.
Oops.
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Hiding a laptop in your ass is a rather difficult proposition. Maybe if they'd sent the goatse.cx guy ....
Liberte! Liberte! (Score:2)
Chi Chi! Get the yayo!
Malware? (Score:2)
Free laptops and cellphones huh? Any malware/spyware installed on those?
I wouldn't trust it unless I could wipe it.
Why am I not surprised? (Score:3, Interesting)
"Raul Castro's government has relied in particular on a provision of the Cuban Criminal Code that allows the state to imprison individuals before they have committed a crime, on the suspicion that they might commit and offense in the future. This "dangerousness" provision is overtly political, defining "dangerousness" as any behavior that contradicts socialist norms. The most Orwellian of Cuba's laws, it captures the essence of the Cuban government's repressive mindset, which views anyone who acts out of step with the government as a potential thread, and thus worthy of punishment."
Reading this, it's no wonder to me that I walked out on the movie Minority Report about 10 minutes in, because it's exactly like that. My sympathies to the poor bastard and his family, they'll probably never see him alive ever again.
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You missed the happy ending, where it all falls apart.
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Where's Raul going to send these people? Guantanamo?
Re:Why am I not surprised? (Score:5, Insightful)
walked out on the movie Minority Report about 10 minutes in
You actively don't watch movies that tackle issues you disagree with? That is a very very close minded attitude.
P.S. had you stayed for the remainder of movie you would have seen that the movie was a warning against such a law. That's ironically akin to not reading Animal Farm because you dislike communism.
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Wait, you walked out on a MOVIE that explored the concept of pre-crime as a moral dilemma 10 minutes into it? I don't get it. Are you only able to watch happy romantic comedies, and early adam sandler movies?
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which views anyone who acts out of step with the government as a potential thread
*gasp* They're not going to sew him, are they?
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The most Orwellian of Cuba's laws, it captures the essence of the Cuban government's repressive mindset, which views anyone who acts out of step with the government as a potential threat, and thus worthy of punishment.
Wait a few years and we'll have that kind of laws as well.
That won't teach the US (Score:2, Insightful)
...to keep its nose of other people's business. The US government's "freedom" fighters can't wait to destroy Cuba. What right does the US have to be there trying to create chaos?
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The same they have to create havoc in Afghanistan and Iraq: Everyone on the planet wants to be free like an American. Everyone knows that.
Dual Standards (Score:2, Insightful)
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Umm, you can buy books like that in bookstores here. And on the web. And check them out of University libraries....
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Well, yes and no. While completely agreeing with the "What did you think would happen if you did that?" part, I think that whether or not the United States government is a legal government could be debated. It took power at the point of a sword from the former government and has never held a church sanctified coronation. To add murkiness, the previous government was also certainly not legal, having taken power by force from the native inhabitants. Unless and until a church sanctified coronation is held in C
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You are either displaying very subtle sarcastic humor or a MASSIVE amount of IGNORANCE here. Being /., I'm betting on the latter but apologize if it is the former.
Cuba provided "advisors", training, arms and money for thirty-plus years to SEVERAL communist revolutionary groups around the world, in such places as Angola, Bolivia, Congo, Nicaragua and Grenada just to name a few. These actions were a legitimate part of their government. Does Che Guevara not ring a bell?
Dear USians (Score:2, Insightful)
When visiting the U.S. would I not be expected to follow U.S. laws. If I have a problem with this my choices are not to go to the U.S.
If you went and did the same thing in Australia you'd be charged as well, granted you'd only get a fine and not jail time the only difference is that we'd charge you under our tax and import laws (nice and civil like). The person in question w
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So while we're allowed to complain about "telcos" being so utterly inhumane and charging us for basic rights, the government should intervene, etc., we're not allowed to get upset that another country will do who-knows-what do an American who was passing out laptops and cellphones?
Sure, he shouldn't have done if it was illegal. And the Cuban government should respect human life enough to realize that giving someone a free laptop is probably a pretty minor offense. Let's hope they do.
And anyone that wants
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No, you're not. Likewise, a fanatic islamic fundamentalist has no right to complain about women showing their face in public in the US. Different country, different laws. It's probably wrong, at least from your point of view, but you're in no position to demand a change.
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I think you're missing the point. It's about laptops per se - it's encouraging dissent. You get locked up for "supporting terrorism" in the USA, too. It's really not that different.
We dissent here all the time!! (Score:2, Flamebait)
I think you're missing the point. It's about laptops per se - it's encouraging dissent.
And what is YOUR point. Here in the U.S. we encourage freedom of speech. Even people giving death threats against sitting presidents (on either side) are at worst questioned - if they are even talked to at all!
Are you saying he was advocating violent overthrow of the sitting Cuban government, and providing arms? Now THAT might get you put in the hoosegow here. But AFIAK, we was handing out laptops! And cell phones!
Sad day for Democracy (Score:2, Funny)
Leave Cuba Alone (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Leave Cuba Alone (Score:4, Insightful)
you could see the leader ship in Cuba might be a little paranoid
They have no need to be paranoid after the Bay of Pigs [wikipedia.org] invasion in 1961. It was a war. From this link:
Cuba's losses during the conflict are variously reported as 4,000 killed,wounded or missing [6], or about 5,000.[7] Cuban sources report over 2,200 casualties[50].
So after that little incident Cuba subscribes to the principle "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts". And this guy just showed up bearing gifts.
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Re:Leave Cuba Alone (Score:4, Insightful)
Hear, hear! This is nothing more than just another example of this country's hypocrisy. Fighting insurgencies in Iraq while trying to jump-start their own insurgency in Cuba. Why do we still have an embargo on this small island nation anyway? Because they're Communist? Because they violate human rights? Last I checked, China does both, and yet they're our largest trade partners. Oh, I see, so when it's beneficial for us, we can look the other way and make exceptions right?
They have an offense of "dangerousness" (Score:2)
We have a similar catch-all equivalent, called "causing a public disturbance".
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Me giving you a laptop causes a public disturbance?
Go on, pull the other one!
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You're right, public disturbance laws are for protests, not this. Here they would grab the hard drives and investigate them for child porn.
Get Smart (Score:2)
An American citizen working as a contractor for the United States Agency for International Development has been arrested for giving away laptops and cellphones in Cuba. The intent was to enable activists to connect with each other and spread information of what's happening inside Cuba
What I see here is clumsily staged bit of agitprop worthy of Bush and Cheney - and very high risk for any Cuban activist foolish enough to become involved.
USSR Jails Citizen for use of Paper, Pencils (Score:2)
Jeez, the Cubans are getting lax. Hard to find good, old fashioned totalitarians these days.
They are within their sovereign right to do so. (Score:2, Insightful)
Reverse it. Suppose foreigners had come here and started handing out goods we labeled contraband but were perfectly legal in their respective countries. We would likely react accordingly and arrest (or at least detain and deport) them. How about we change our attitudes regarding other nations to something like this: mind our own damn business. Thank you for reading.
Sauce for the goose? (Score:4, Insightful)
I wonder how somebody doing the same kind of thing would have been treated in Chile under Pinochet, or one of the other countries where the US has installed its own bloody-handed dictators. Actually, I don't wonder at all. At least in Cuba the guy has a chance of getting out alive. If Pinochet or one of the other US puppets got hold of him, he'd already be missing some body parts and rotting in a shallow grave somewhere.
...used mostly for texting (Score:3, Funny)
Ironically, in order to get the same information as a 15 minute phone conversation takes 2 hours when texting, and eats up 3 days wages.
Cuba uses the dollar now? (Score:3, Insightful)
"the average worker's wage is $15 a month" - No it isn't. Cuba does not use the dollar.
This is the usual bullshit propaganda from the kind of people that want you to believe that third-world workers on two dollars a day can't afford to eat. They arrive at this rubbish by pricing first-world food at first-world prices (herb ciabatta from a New York delicatessen at $4 a loaf, instead of flat bread baked by the family where the ingredients are grown by the local farmers and sold at market for less than quarter of a day's wages).
The developing world does not price its goods in dollars, nor do they shop at the deli counter. Get over it.
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Re:Communism (Score:5, Insightful)
"Revolution for the people" is irrelevant. Single party systems inevitably lead to human rights abuse.
The message that such concentrated power is for the benefit of "the people" is pure propaganda.
Re:Communism (Score:5, Insightful)
Theirs is not the only system that needs replacing/overhaul. Dual party systems also lead to human rights abuse.
The message that a two party system is a "democracy" (or "republic" if you want to ride the irrelevant semantics bandwagon) is pure propaganda.
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Re:Communism (Score:4, Insightful)
Representative democracy (what Americans usually actually mean when they talk about "democracy vs republic") does not guarantee protection for the rights of the minority. There are various examples of that in history, but the most famous one is Weimar Republic, and the state into which it ultimately transformed. Another very famous example is historical USA (remember, it was a republic while slavery was legal, and later on when Jim Crow laws were in force).
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Re:Communism (Score:5, Insightful)
yes yeah yeah.
What with all the embargo shit going on, cuba doesn't have a big chance to improve the economy much, do they now? Suddenly the US comes in and hands out stuff for free to only those people who are in opposition of the government.
Yes ok, so they have (or had) laws against owning a cell phone, maybe there's a good reason for that in their current situation.
I'm most definitely not a communist, but if you think cuba is the bad guy here you most certainly are deluded.
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That is not entirely accurate. From wiki [wikipedia.org] ...
Re:Communism (Score:5, Insightful)
The government of Cuba is evil.
In other news, water is wet and fire is hot.
Re:Communism (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Communism (Score:5, Insightful)
In ANY democratic country an agent of a foreign power financing political groups would be declared persona non grata and kicked out. Apparently Cuba can't do it because then they are dangerous communists that eat children for breakfast.
Remove the absurd and illegal embargo you have on Cuba and then let's all talk about democracy. No country can be democratic with another country's boot crushing it. And we're talking about the USA, it's a HUUUUGE motherfucking boot.
Re:Communism (Score:5, Insightful)
In ANY democratic country an agent of a foreign power financing political groups would be declared persona non grata and kicked out.
Ah yes. In that case, it should be no problem for you to point to a case where an individual was jailed in, say, the United States, for handing out free stuff to political groups.
Go ahead, I'll wait.
Oh, and while you're trying to think of a way to back-pedal out of this one, you should probably stop and think about just how despicable you look to every person who actually gives a damn about human rights. You're offering excuses on behalf of an oppressive dictatorship, just so you can squeeze in a cheap shot at nations which guarantee you freedoms that Cubans can only dream about. I don't know how you live with yourself.
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Now how are You going to back-pedal out of this one?
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Yeah, scroll up and this time actually read what I wrote, ok? Then try to draft a response which addresses it. Thanks!
Re:Communism (Score:4, Informative)
A quick google reveals:
http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml [fec.gov]
"The Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) prohibits any foreign national from contributing, donating or spending funds in connection with any federal, state, or local election in the United States, either directly or indirectly. It is also unlawful to help foreign nationals violate that ban or to solicit, receive or accept contributions or donations from them. Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to fines and/or imprisonment."
Imagine how your government would react if it finds that a foreign nation (eg China) has been funding the opposition party.
I think Cuba's reaction is quite normal. Cuba does have human rights violations, but I'm not sure if this is one of them.
Re:Communism (Score:5, Insightful)
In ANY democratic country an agent of a foreign power financing political groups would be declared persona non grata and kicked out.
Ah yes. In that case, it should be no problem for you to point to a case where an individual was jailed in, say, the United States, for handing out free stuff to political groups.
Go ahead, I'll wait.
Please read this [wikipedia.org].
Some parts are very interesting:
This law defines the agent of a foreign principal as someone who:
(. . .)
Although the act was designed to broadly apply to any foreign agent (and was first used against German Nazi and Soviet propagandists), in practice FARA is frequently used to target countries out of favor with an administration (such as Venezuela or Iraq during the George W. Bush administration).
Oh, and while you're trying to think of a way to back-pedal out of this one, you should probably stop and think about just how despicable you look to every person who actually gives a damn about human rights. You're offering excuses on behalf of an oppressive dictatorship, just so you can squeeze in a cheap shot at nations which guarantee you freedoms that Cubans can only dream about. I don't know how you live with yourself.
Yeah, when the richest super power on Earth illegally embargoes and violently harasses a small, poor country of 11 million for decades those people that give a damn about human rights rejoice. But that's not news, you did it to many small poor countries before, this one is still resisting, that's all. You come talk about human WHAT??? If Castro sucked the American cock, even if he had babies for breakfast, you would love him, like many other oppressive dictators.
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"It also says it opens the door to arbitrariness, and it was used in that way by the USA and all the others. Cuba shouldn't be bashed for using the same."
So please, if it's such a perfect example of the US doing the same thing, point to the cases where people were arrested for it rather than simply required to identify themselves. Go on.
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Canada, France, and Britain are also models. Are their standards of living good enough? Moore was showcasing Cuba in a more sarcastic way "Even these guys have it!"
Though communism is evil I agree.
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Has Canada health care expense dropped from 2nd place in cost?
The USA was number one in cost followed next by Canada about 10 to 20 years ago. In a report I did in school about 10 years ago. I recommended using the Germany health care system as I thought it would best be able adjust to the American Capitalistic System.
But, since the USA is slowly changing from a Capitalistic System to Fascist System; maybe, it is even more proper to adopt the German system.
Tim S.
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At second place, Canada's health care is still half as expensive as the US'. We can do better, but not by emulating the American system.
Re:Can't be true (Score:4, Informative)
Switzerland is 2nd and WELL below the US in total cost. The Cuba point is also well illustrated on those charts. It performs well above the curve, the US well below. Canada btw is spending a bit over half what the US is. Honestly, follow ANY modern country other than the US and you will be doing well.
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Your point is what? That liberals say stupid things? Anne Coulter said several widows whose husbands died in the 9/11 attacks were "witches" who "act as if 9/11 only happened to them" and implied they were happy to have been victimized. If we start acting as if pundits speak for anything more than themselves, we should just speed things up and start flinging our poo at each other right now.
(By the way, my purpose here isn't to equate Michael Moore to Anne Coulter, I think they're different in many ways,
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Anne Coulter said several widows whose husbands died in the 9/11 attacks were "witches" who "act as if 9/11 only happened to them" and implied they were happy to have been victimized.
You know, Anne Coulter says a lot of stupid shit, but on that one topic I have to agree with her. The women she was referencing are absolutely horrid. They're the equivalent of Cindy Sheehan - pumping out public displays of "grief" in order to pursue their own political agenda. I'd offer my commiseration and sympathy to any person who lost a loved one on 9/11 (or in the GWOT) ... but when you start using your loss as a political weapons, you make yourself fair game. If you're willing to profane the memo
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How much 15 bucks is worth depends on what it buys you. 15 bucks in any country labeled "developed" is a dinner. There are countries where an US minimum wage would allow you to live like a king.
Recently there was a report of people on German social wellfare living in Thailand because what's barely enough to live in Germany pays for a quite comfortable living standard there.
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I am sure the American view of a free way of life means a corporate monopoly on the tourism industry, corporate corruption of the politicians to serve their needs, the creation of class inequality, and "servant" status for the natives like in most of the tropical destinations Americans go to.
Because the Cuban governmental monopoly on the tourism industry, corrupt politicians enriching themselves at the direct expense of the people, vast inequality between the nomenklatura and ordinary peasants, and forced labor in the sugarcane fields for schoolchildren is so much better. ....
In two cases, a one-party dictatorship took control of an island with a history of colonial exploitation and an agriculture-based economy. It happens that both islands are at about the same latitude, and both are subject
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Erm, can you clarify which the other nation was and did said nation have an embargo from the biggest economy in the world on it for the same period? Did it also get attacked by said superpower? Was it victim of multiple plots at coup d'etats from said superpower?
Besides, Sweden and many other European nations are socialist, Cuba is communist. At least understand the difference between political ideologies and realise that correlation is not causation before trying to discuss such things.
Your assumption that
Re:Embargo fails. (Score:5, Insightful)
Had it been lifted many years ago, perhaps Cubans would have already overthrown their dictatorship and established a free way of life.
Yeah, just like the Chinese have.
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Re:Embargo fails. (Score:5, Informative)
Cuba: $9500
People's Republic of China: $6000
So, the average Cuban is still richer than the average Chinese. In ten years it might be different, though. But all this is irrelevant to the parent's point: dropping an embargo doesn't necessarily lead to political liberalization, even if the people do become better off. You can be very rich and [wikipedia.org] still [wikipedia.org] dictatorial [wikipedia.org].
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I'd be curious to see where the two countries started out at. Take the GDP(PPP) in today's USD from 1950 and see how much either has grown/shrunk. I wouldn't be surprised if China grew by an order of magnitude or more while Cuba fell a few thousand bucks.
According to this file [usda.gov] (warning: Excel spreadsheet), Cuba's GDP in 1969 (in billions of 2005 USD) was $15.61; China's was $101.83. In 2009, Cuba's had grown to $43.12, while China's exploded to $3338.56. During that period, Cuba's average annual growth rat
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Surely GDP per capita doesn't tell you in itself what a typical person's income is, let alone what their standard of living is? It'll give you the mean but the median is probably more interesting, or the mean of working-class people's income, perhaps.
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Re:Embargo fails. (Score:4, Insightful)
I really did not know that the USA was the only country in the world that makes cell phones. Since there is nothing to stop an NON-USA country from trading with Cuba.
Tim S.
Re:Embargo fails. (Score:5, Insightful)
The US does extend their reach on export control. If you want to sell technology to the US you have to agree not to sell to countries they embargo.
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Really? Got any references to back that up?
Re:Embargo fails. (Score:4, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helms_burton [wikipedia.org]
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...perhaps Cubans would have already overthrown their dictatorship and established a free way of life.
That sword cuts both ways. Maybe you may not want to use it to make a political statement?
TBH, I doubt that technology would've helped the people much - by simple dint of "priority" being given to the government and military, and everyone else being frozen out. After all, the only thing keeping cell phones out of North Korea (IIRC) is the North Korean govern
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Yeah, it'd be nice if they had some rich country many times larger than them nearby to trade freely with. I imagine that within a few decades their standard of living will double or triple.
Re:Normalize with these animals? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, we do business with China and Saudi Arabia. Just Saying....
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Well, we do business with China and Saudi Arabia. Just Saying....
Well the US has to do trade with China - especially given how much US debt they own. <conspiracy>And as for the Saudi's its just another regime to get in bed with in order smooth over US interests in the ME</conspiracy>
Re:Normalize with these animals? (Score:4, Interesting)
> Well, we do business with China and Saudi Arabia. Just Saying....
Yea. Which is why I'd like to see us get off the imported oil habit to the point we could tell the House of Saud to pound sand.
And some of us objected to MFN status for China based on their horrid human rights record. Too bad the 'progressives' formed an unholy alliance with the big transnational corporate interests on that issue.... But no we probably can't just treat China as the total pariah they would be in a more perfect world. People who say size doesn't matter are just deluding themselves.
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Nice unsubstantiated attack there... Clinton, who signed the MFN with China is no progressive (he's a corporate-backed Dem, just like his wife). I didn't see many progressives saying MFN with China was good, if you have evidence, I'd like to see it.
You're aware that only 8.5% of US oil imports (Score:4, Insightful)
You're aware that only 8.5% of US oil imports come from Saudi Arabia, right?
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm [doe.gov]
60% of U.S. oil imports are from non-OPEC nations; OPEC nations. The single largest supplier, by volume, is Canada, followed by Mexico.
Of the OPEC nations, the biggest supplier is currently Venezuela, though they were edged out by Saudi Arabia for a couple months this year (last April and July).
Basically, if it was about the oil, we could tell them to pound sand today; we simply aren't getting that much oil from them. What the U.S. gets of of the relationship is a more or less stable Middle East.
-- Terry
Re:Normalize with these animals? (Score:5, Insightful)
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"Animals?" Come on now, if Taliban agents were caught handing out darknet cellphones and laptops through a mosque in NYC, you just know the same thing would happen. Heck, we recently arrested some midde-east looking people just for taking home videos at Disneyland.
I love how things are distorted to serve an agenda. People are dehumanized by referring to them as "animals". And situations are distorted by describing them in the most innocent terms ("taking home videos at Disneyland" - the defendants were being prosecuted for a collection of material to include the aforementioned video of Disneyland) and presented as "recent" when they actually occurred over 8 years ago.
Re:Normalize with these animals? (Score:4, Interesting)
It really illustrates how easy it is to believe anything about your enemies once you regard them as "morally bankrupt animals."
Re:Normalize with these animals? (Score:5, Insightful)
It is instructive to note how many useful idiots keep calling to normalize relations with the sort of barbarians that lock people up for passing out cell phones.
Normalize travel and trade with these animals? Really?
Seriously, would YOU travel into such a hellhole? Do business as usual with such a morally bankrupt regime and expect them to honor contracts like civilized people?
Yes, really. Why? Because you nominally care about the vast majority of normal people who live there. You may disagree with the ruling class, but that doesn't necessarily justify an embargo.
Also, let's keep in mind that these people locked up someone who was effectively an agitator. Or is sedition only bad when it's being done against the US standards? The Cubans locked up a man who was disruptive to their country's stability, like it or not. And again, if the embargo wasn't in place, the sheer contact between the normal citizens of each culture would have done a lot to educate both sides. People learn from contact. Leaving a country in isolation does nothing for them.
Depose or do not depose. Those are the two reasonable courses of action. The embargo at this point is nothing but pride.
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People in this country were arrested and detained for the possession of cell phones during the previous two administrations. (Bush , Clinton)
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Dissent/Crackdown_Dissent.html
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/aug2000/phil-a08.shtml
Re:Normalize with these animals? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, it's not like the US imprisons people for years without charge ignoring their human rights under the Geneva convention for political reasons (in Cuba no less).
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A lot of Canadian companies do business with Cuba and seem to be quite successful. As for morally bankrupt, seems tons of western corporations have no problems exploiting third world civilians for cheap labor. China anyone?
If you don't start somewhere you'll never get to see what changes you could bring.
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What the heck are you talking about? Michael Moore says Cuba is a sterling example of how we should be.
Brett
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Well, what did that person do from the perspective of the Cuban government? He was supporting people and organisations that tried to undermine and destabilize the government.
The US ship people that try the same to theirs to Cuba too...
Before you say that's something different, he's not a terrorist, he's just trying to bring these people freedom: He tried to give these people the means to achive a system he deems superior and more desirable. It is the same.
Re:Normalize with these animals? (Score:5, Insightful)
Hell yes, it's a stunningly beautiful country with great food, gorgeous women, wonderful climate, great music, and friendly people. It's also extremely safe, the crime rate is next to nothing, and very cheap. That's why tens of thousands of Europeans travel there every year. Wish I could go without being labeled a criminal by my government.
Re:Normalize with these animals? (Score:4, Insightful)
Normalize travel and trade with these animals? Really?
Oh yes. Because this is the Land of the Free, and therefore your citizens have no business going to all those un-Free countries, and should be severely punished for daring to do so, or - God forbid - trying to buy anything from those animals. After all, they're already Free, and they live in the most Free place on Earth; clearly, if they travel to that evil un-Free country, they mock the very idea of Freedom. Right?
Re:Anybody out there? (Score:4, Insightful)
I wonder when is the US going to do anything serious about the democracy deterioration in latin america.
The list of countries where democracy is falling apart is growing year by year. First it was only Cuba, but then Venezuela's Chavez joined the club. Chavez is so determined in exporting his ideology that he has successfully used the country's wealth to build alliances and undermine democracy in Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, and in less measure Argentina, and now he is trying really hard in Honduras, Peru and Colombia.
The US have done a lot about what you call "democracy deterioration" in Latin America, mostly in the seventies.
I assume you really mean they should do something about those f'n commies.
They did something back in the seventies, do you remember? A bit from the wikipedia:
From wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor [wikipedia.org] )
Operation Condor (Spanish: Operación Cóndor, Portuguese: Operação Condor), was a campaign of political repression involving assassination and intelligence operations officially implemented in 1975 by the governments of the Southern Cone of South America. The program aimed to eradicate alleged socialist and communist influence and ideas and to control active or potential opposition movements against the participating right-wing governments.[citation needed] Due to its clandestine nature, the precise number of deaths directly attributable to Operation Condor will likely never be known, but it is reported to have caused over sixty thousand [1], possibly even more.[2][3][4]
Condor's key members were the governments in Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia and Brazil. The United States participated in a supervisory capacity, with Ecuador and Peru joining later in more peripheral roles.[5]
I don't think the US should do anything outside their borders. We are fine as we are right now.
Bolivia is a healthy democracy that recently confirmed its government. Ecuador is also. Saying that Chavez can influence Argentina is an insult to Argentina as a regional power.
About Honduras... I don't know what you think about Honduras, but Chavez is very much in line about that issue with Brazil and the rest of Mercosur. And I hope you are not trying to say that Chavez is forcing his interests on Brazil.
Re:Anybody out there? (Score:4, Insightful)
I take it you approve of the military coup in Honduras then, with its sham elections conducted in complete violation of the country's constitution? Maybe we should just let the Pentagon decide who gets to be president of the Latin American countries again, like in Reagan's reign of error. Those people can't be trusted to elect someone who supports the interests of the multi-national mega-corps over their own citizenry like the Americans do.
Re:But they have *free* health care... (Score:4, Insightful)
As far as the actual Havana, no, you're completely wrong. Try talking to the really old Cubans, the ones who came over before the revolution to work because it was the only way to keep their children from starving to death back home. Unlike what Gloria Estafan says, the majority lived in squalid poverty at the mercy of of the overseers who worked for the sugar companies, United Fruit, and the Mafia. People were quite literally killed just for complaining that the hacendado's kid or the factory manager had raped their daughter. There is a reason that when the Bay of Pigs invasion happened the people ran to the local armory to fight the gusanos, they didn't want them back.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
In the U.S., you can't be charged with a conspiracy to overthrow government willy-nilly. Just because you do something, and declare that your ultimate reason for doing so is "overthrowing the government", doesn't make it sufficient. Case in point: if you print a bunch of Marxist propaganda leaflets explaining Marx economic theories of exploitation, and hand them out to people on the streets, you won't be jailed, even if you walk down to the nearest police station and tell a cop that your leaflets are intend
Eheh (Score:4, Insightful)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
Discuss.
America, land of the free. As long as you agree with the party-line. As ex-soviet reporters have commented, the differences between the soviet union and the US are not all that big. Tell me, do they still have camps for the homeless in the US? Food stamps? Waiting in line for the food kitchen?
The US has created a very smart system, it is similar to what religious groups use. Sure you can criticize, HERETIC! Just see what happens if you dare to protest against copyright... how many hundreds of millions are you fined with? No, it is not the same as being tortured and shipped to some re-education center. It is far better. People are willing to die for freedom, spend the rest of their life in poverty, not so much.
You can see the true freedom in the US with cases such as the Dixie Chicks. Freedom should be MORE then just being able to say what everyone else says. What westerners often get wrong about dictatorships like Cube, Russia, Soviet Union (Russia today is not free), China etc is that they are NOT what you see in McGuyver episodes. There isn't a commisar on every corner, not everything is monitored and controlled. Rather, they use the fear of being noticed when you dare to stand out to stop you from standing out. And they "use" a few who are allowed to stand out but are slapped down from time to time to remind everyone what happens.
Same as western society when you dare question things. Copyright, mod-chips, they might seem like minor issues but it is what the powers that be care about in the west, and if you question them, you are slapped down. For that matter, what have all dictarorships got in common? Repression of the rights of homo-sexuals (true communism would give full rights to everyone). What western country is most repressive of gay-rights? Thank you.
Be very careful about thinking you are free just because they allow you to certain freedoms. A free-range chicken still gets eaten.