Iranian Crackdown Goes Global 313
An anonymous reader writes "Tehran's leadership faces its biggest crisis since it first came to power in 1979, as Iranians at home and abroad attack its legitimacy in the wake of June's allegedly rigged presidential vote. An opposition effort, the 'Green Movement,' is gaining a global following of regular Iranians who say they never previously considered themselves activists. The regime has been cracking down hard at home. And now, a Wall Street Journal investigation shows, it is extending that crackdown to Iranians abroad as well. Part of the effort involves tracking the Facebook, Twitter and YouTube activity of Iranians around the world, and identifying them at opposition protests abroad. People who criticize Iran's regime online or in public demonstrations are facing threats intended to silence them."
revolt (Score:4, Insightful)
What I appreciate about this situation is that the Iranian people are standing up for them selves. Makes me want to help them. Something along the lines of supporting a justified patriot.
I dont care for the Afghan or Iraq wars because the people didnt stand up for themselves so I dont think that the rest of the civilized world shoudl sacrifice our soldiers lives for them. I think you will find many people much more willing to help the Iranians because they will stand up for themselves.
Re:Naked Dictatorship (Score:3, Insightful)
To have pride in your liberty it must cost something, you must have earned it. its a cruel truth. Iraqis wont have pride in their liberty because they did not choose it, they are only accepting it. If the Iranian people can win, with or without international assistance, they will have pride in their freedom because they earned it.
Identifiable... (Score:3, Insightful)
Rule 1 of opposing an oppressive government on the interwebs: DO NOT put personally identifiable information on the same page as your opposing views.
Not much the US can do (Score:3, Insightful)
The bad thing is, the US can't do much about this. If they press the hardliners too much, the pushback against that will push moderate Iranians into the hardliner's arms and unite the country behind them.
This happened in 2003-2004 when Iraq got invaded. People changed from considering the US as a superpower from afar to having military garrisons on two of Iran's borders and propaganda [1] going 24/7 about a pincer attack just hours away. Of course, this drove the moderate Iranians right into the arms of the extremists until recently.
The big reason the hardliners are having *any* resistance by moderates is that the evil bad bear of the US isn't making any headway with Iranians these days. They know that the US doesn't have the manpower or the technology for a sustained invasion of Iran in a conventional manner, and a nuclear attack just is out of the question.
[1]: The propaganda machines were even in the US. Infowars kept having articles that the Iran bombings were only hours away, and kept having those for years on end.
president of what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Naked Dictatorship (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually (Score:5, Insightful)
The invasion of Iraq may have helped a little in that way. As you said, many Iranians were extremely worried that the US would use Iraq as a stopping point to invade their country. What's more, they saw a demonstration of the US's true power, that an army which could hold them at bay (remember the Iran-Iraq war) was swept aside in a matter of weeks. As you said, there was heavy propaganda related to this at home and abroad.
Ok however, the threat didn't materialize. The US stayed in Iraq and did nothing towards Iran. Even when there were some fluff ups over things like a boat supposedly drifting in to Iranian waters, nothing happened.
What something like that does is cause people to question the propaganda. They start to say "You know, maybe the US really isn't bad like they are saying, they haven't made a move towards Iran at all." The government keeps the propaganda going, and yet the propaganda shows an increasing disconnect with reality. The US elects a new leader that tries to engage them in discourse and still the propaganda continues.
Then of course there's the blatantly rigged election and what does the US do? Nothing militarily, and the citizens speak up in support for Iran.
That kind of stuff can lead to people really questioning the government line. The US quite clearly has the ability to crush their military and destroy their cities if they wish, yet there has been no move to do so. That tells them that what they've been hearing is not the truth.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Naked Dictatorship (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Naked Dictatorship (Score:1, Insightful)
It's not the -only- path to democracy, but it's certainly a common one for societies that lack a shared sense of respect for human life and liberty. It's also more about blood being massively shed and people realizing it's time to stop being dicks to each other; it doesn't necessarily have to come as a result of a struggle for liberty, it just needs to be bloody. It's best if it doesn't have to come down to that and it doesn't guarantee anything, but it certainly contributes to attaining peace and democracy. For some limited time until people become assholes again and the cycle of bloodshed restarts, anyways.
Re:GIYUSlashdot?!? (Score:3, Insightful)
OK, by citing Stormfront you just lost all factual and moral credibility.
Re:revolt (Score:3, Insightful)
can the previous post be flagged -100 Flamebait?
I pay me taxes and I participate in my freedom. My Grandfather and my line back to out immigration has fought to gain the freedom I enjoy today and the keep that freedom. Our policies and methods are not perfect and we make mistakes but many of those 'mistakes' turned into effective paybacks to other countries that enjoy freedom today. France for instance. France saw that American was standing up for itself and help (though there are other motivations and are not important to the outcome) and we in turn defended and liberated France when they were in need with the obvious help of the rest of the allied forces.
Point is, that despite international opinion, American and Americans are still fighting for freedom wherever necessary. So dont give my a line about taking what my forefathers did for granted because we still live by those principals that got us our freedom.
The Grotesquely Ugly Truth (Score:1, Insightful)
After the Kremlin exited Eastern Europe, the peoples of each nation in Eastern Europe rapidly established a genuine democracy and a free market. Except for Romania (where its people killed their dictator), there was no violence.
In Iran (and many other failed states), no external force is imposing the current brutal government on the Iranians. The folks running the government are Iranian. The president is Iranian. The secret police are Iranian. The thugs who will torture and kill democracy advocates are Iranian.
If the democracy advocates attempt to establish a genuine democracy in Iran, violence will occur. Why? A large percentage of the population supports the brutal government and will kill the democracy advocates.
Let us not merely condemn the Iranian government. We must condemn Iranian culture. Its product is the authoritarian state.
We should not intervene in the current crisis in Iran. If the overwhelming majority of Iranians (like the overwhelming majority of Poles) truly support democracy, human rights, and peace with Israel, then a liberal Western democracy will arise -- without any violence. Right now, the overwhelming majority clearly oppose the creation of a liberal Western democracy. The Iranians love a brutal Islamic theocracy.
The Iranians created this horrible society. It is none of our business unless they attempt to develop nuclear weapons. We in the West are morally justified in destroying the nuclear-weapons facilities.
Note that, 40 years ago, Vietnam suffered a worse fate (than the Iranians) at the hands of the Americans. They doused large areas of Vietnam with agent orange, poisoning both the land and the people. Yet, the Vietnamese do not channel their energies into seeking revenge (by, e. g., building a nuclear bomb) against the West. Rather, the Vietnamese are diligently modernizing their society. They will reach 1st-world status long before the Iranians.
Cultures are different. Vietnamese culture and Iranian culture are different. The Iranians bear 100% of the blame for the existence of a tyrannical government in Iran. We should condemn Iranian culture and its people.
Re:The Grotesquely Ugly Truth (Score:5, Insightful)
While I don't agree that the majority of Iranians support their government, a large enough minority does to make a quick transition to some type of truly representative governing impossible without violence.
What I absolutely agree with is the idea that the US, the UN and everyone else needs to stay out of the way and not become a distraction or 'common enemy'. The greatest good we can do in America is to be less dependent on oil, lowering the price. Right now a little bit of isolationism would help force them to get their own house in order. In time.
Re:A legitimate cause for war, if Iran goes too fa (Score:5, Insightful)
How is this bigot not modded troll/flamebait?
To turn a blind eye to murder due to the victims ideology, race, or religion is reprehensible.
Imagine the year is 1941:
A few attacks on individuals, especially those who hail from an enemy culture and religion , are not nearly enough to bother with invading Germany. Real Americans aren't Jews and don't care what happens to them any more than we'd care if some thoughtful soul was murdering Japs.
Does the above seem any different?
Re:The Grotesquely Ugly Truth (Score:1, Insightful)
Wow us Americans have gotten sneakier, we go in stage massive riots, convince many many Iranians who hate us that their president cheated on the vote, and then got out, without leaving evidence... I would have bought all but that last bit.
no, you're wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
there were two schools of thought in iran since the 1979 revolution:
1. its a democracy. the whole supreme leader bs is just for window dressing
2. its a theocracy. the whole elections bs is just to appease the crowds
this central crisis in the iranian government seems to have been resolved in june 2009, with iran going the theocratic route, which is the substance of your comment
but its actually going a third route: military dictatorship, with the supreme leadership bs as window dressing AND the elections bs as crowd appeasement
the supreme leader is actually now hostage of the elite revolutionary guard, he has no real power. ahmadinejad is an old hand of the revolutionary guard. watch the next leader of iran to be handpicked from the revolutionary guard and "elected" by the people and "approved" by the ayatollah. now, the whole of the complex iranian government apparatus is under their sway and influence. the central unanswered schism between theocracy and democracy in the previous complex government arrangement has meant someone had to fill the power vacuum, and it has been filled: by the military
either way, the crowd appeasement obviously isn't working. the people of iran are pissed, and as in any country where the will of the people is not addressed, the government's illegitimacy grows over time, as the agenda of the government and the agenda of the common man grow further apart. this will reach a breaking point. could take years or decades, with plenty of suffering during that time. throw in nuclear weapons for fun
but until such time as iran falls yet again into revolution due to not being a democracy, iran is now a military dictatorship. not officially of course. much like north korea is officially the DEMOCRATIC people's republic of korea. yeah, north korea is a democracy (roll's eyes)
Re:Actually (Score:3, Insightful)
yes, we understand the bush administration sucked (Score:3, Insightful)
now that you have weighed in on a dead argument that has already been resolved, when do you point some of your withering moral denunciations on the illegitimate government of iran?
or is your insightful probing mind permanently pointed only at the usa for some reason?
pffft
Re:Facebook spam? (Score:3, Insightful)
This could easily be their fervent volunteers, not just hired suits. Hitler youths are useful.
Right Now (Score:5, Insightful)
When in the last century has the US actually tried not interfering with *anything*?
Right now we are doing exactly that, bending over backwards in fact to say just about nothing about the protests or questioning whatsoever the legitimacy of the current regime in Iran.
And what does it get us? The exact same rhetoric they have always used. When U.S. involvement they complain about is imaginary continuing to not get involved can hardly stop the complaints. Back in WW2 the soviet line is we were causing the potato famine by dropping evil U.S. Potato Bugs from Colorado on the fields. In reality they had stripped away all sorts of trees which meant the birds moved out which meant bugs flourished...
You can never appease a chronic complainer. You can only stop the complaining.
then you need to be intellectually honest (Score:3, Insightful)
if you say your concerns are wholly domestic, then you need to refrain your criticism of the us government to only domestic issues
if you say that is impossible, that our relationship with the outside world matters, then you also need to be intellectually honest and look at and criticize other regimes, since that certainly matters in our relationship with the wider world
but you can't have it both ways, as you are currently claiming, that somehow criticism of only the us government on matters that involve other governments is somehow logically coherent or in any way helpful
Re:Facebook spam? (Score:5, Insightful)
We should find photos relating to the current leadership and their families, photoshop them to be pro Green Movement, then add them to any fake profiles created. I'm sure the bastards have bought facial recognition software by now and I feel it should be given a good workout.
I suppose that this is meant to be funny. I assume that it should be obvious that actually doing this would be seen as evidence for all the things that the current regime is saying? that non-Iranians are planting false evidence on the internet, and thus, by inference, everything they say is true: the rebellion is being done by non-Iranians, that they are deceitful, and that the internet is being used to spread lies about Iran.
I hate to keep saying things that make people accuse me of being an idealist, but, as a general thing, it is desirable to counter falsehood, deceit, and manipulation with truth, not with falsehood, deceit and manipulation.
I think your idea of "beauty" is warped. (Score:3, Insightful)
> If they think they are anointed by their imaginary celestial friend, they require enthusiastic liquidation in the manner of the French Revolution.
(A beautiful act, and worthy of emulation.)
If you think that chaotically seizing and killing anyone who appeared to be rich or who was denounced by someone loudly enough is "worthy of emulation," you're quite nuts. I mean, it's not like they call it the Reign of Terror [wikipedia.org]. Maybe you like it because among the revolutionaries were many atheists as well as those who merely hated the Catholic church (both for real and imagined wrongs). But the crazy mob during the Terror killed the "father of modern chemistry" who gave us things like the law of the conservation of mass. Antonie Lavoisier was beheaded because someone claimed he sold watered-down tobacco [wikipedia.org].
Re:Facebook spam? (Score:3, Insightful)
Damnit! I just looked for the moderation button. I've lost my unused mod points.
Geoffrey is right on target. It's ALWAYS in the best interests of everyone involved to counter propaganda and oppression with the TRUTH!! Please don't give the tyrants free ammunition with which to convince the oppressed that THEY are right!
sure (Score:2, Insightful)
everything is equivalent, all governments in the world are equal. there's no difference at all between the iranian government and the american government
is that the point you were trying to make? i wouldn't want to accuse you of being disingenuous, after all
see i knew this guy once who REALLY hated the government of zimbabwe. whenever a discussion came up about the crimes of this government or that government, he would say "yeah but in zimbabwe..." and try to steer the conversation back to the issue of the vast evil of the government of zimbabwe. which i guess is ok, as long as he admitted he had a colossal chip on his shoulder, and wasn't at all pretending to be unbiased or intellectually honest, and that he wasn't actually interested in bettering the world, instead that he was just holding a grudge and seeking a vendetta. right?
Re:Nothing new (Score:3, Insightful)
"One of the regulars on there was attacked in Los Angeles with a bat and lost an eye."
This is why we should purge the US of pro-Mullocracy immigrants.
It should be made easy to administratively revoke residence and citizenship of immigrants administratively, without appeal, on national security grounds.