$33 Million In Poker Winnings Seized By US Govt 465
An anonymous reader writes "A New York Times story reports that, 'Opening a new front in the government's battle against Internet gambling, federal prosecutors have asked four American banks to freeze tens of millions of dollars in payments owed to people who play poker online. ... "It's very aggressive, and I think it's a gamble on the part of the prosecutors," Mr. Rose said. He added that it was not clear what law would cover the seizure of money belonging to poker players, as opposed to the money of the companies involved.' Many players are reporting that their cashout checks have bounced."
Re:Another reason not to gamble online (Score:5, Informative)
If you're playing with a real deck, at a real casino. Who knows whats in the virtual deck you're playing with?
Doesn't matter. Your opponents are still other players. Someone always wins every hand - the house never "wins". The house just takes a rake out of every pot.
Now, you could theorize that the house occasionally might grab more rake than it is due, but that would be easy to determine. The only other means of obvious fraud would be for the house to create a 'shill' player.
Your real fear should be collusion between multiple accounts created by the same person or a group of people acting together. That happens all the time.
Re:Another reason not to gamble online (Score:5, Informative)
The persistence of these myths is quite remarkable, and may have something to do with the current legal situation.
As others have pointed out, poker is not a game which is skewed in the house's favor. The house takes a percentage of every pot, called the rake. In poker players play against one another, and while there is a chance element, chance does not favor anyone in the long run. In the long run, the difference in earnings between two players can be attributed to the choices they make. That is why poker is considered a game of skill and many governments have recognized this distinction. Poker is legal in California, for example, because the courts have ruled it to be a game of skill.
What is especially silly about this new legal move is that it rests on very shaky legal ground. The prosecutor has cited the Wire Act [wikipedia.org], but federal courts have already ruled that the wire act only applies to sports betting. It's also strange timing since the UIGEA which attempts to prevent gambling-related money transfers is scheduled to begin being enforced later this year.
As to the fairness of the games, that could only be ensured and improved with proper regulation. Hopefully the attention brought to this situation by this case will ultimately result in the legality of online poker being clarified. Barney Frank has introduced a bill to legalize and regulate online poker. If this is an issue you support, I urge you to let your congressperson know [capwiz.com].
Re:that's what you get for breaking the law (Score:4, Informative)
in poker anyways, the house makes its money on the rake. which is, each pot it gets a small percentage (usually this is capped at a few dollars). So the house has every reason to make sure it's cards are random, as people will perform statistical analysis on the cards dealt, and it makes no difference in terms of how much money they make. They want you to play more/bigger hands. So in poker, you're not really competing against the house, just other players and to make money you need to be better than the other players by percentage of the rake.
Re:Lame Gov (Score:3, Informative)
Exactly. Change we can believe in. It's disgusting, now the government is robbing people of gaming winnings. They have nothing better to do, than make sure it's citizens are taxed and robbed to death. I guess they forgot how America was "discovered" in the first place... to escape an oppressive and over size government that is at it's heart, was hypocritical, much like today. We have tax cheats and frauds in financial institutions running this country. It's just sickening. The uprising is coming, and they will only have themselves to blame. It's coming.
Re:'Cause THIS is clearly the highest priority (Score:2, Informative)
It's pretty high on some of the special-interest-groups' lists [ncalg.org].
The number of anti-gaming [cagnyinf.org] groups is obscene.
And apparently their voices are heard louder than most.
Also, they have a lot of ammunition to use against "online poker" sites, partly because politicans can easily be made suspicious of online services...
There are lots of negative connotations about "online gambling" sites
Re:Lame Gov (Score:5, Informative)
Libertarian shift in the banking industry o_O ?
The libertarians have been the most rabid opponent of the banking system for decades. The banking system is basically a franchise system by the state controlled central bank. The most important factor in banking, the short term interest rate is set by a group of technocrats and politicians, much like the gosplan. Banking is the least libertarian sector in the economy, it is a pillar of the government.
US v. $124,700 (Score:3, Informative)
They probably sued the money first.
US v $124,700
Civil forfeiture is nothing more than an end run around the 4th and 14th amendments.
Besides, if money can be sued by the government, and thus deprived of its liberty, doesn't the money have the right to legal counsel?
What about the money's right to 5th amendment protection against self incrimination? ...need I go on?
Re:Another reason not to gamble online (Score:5, Informative)
Ah yes, th fly-by-night internet companies that are listed on the London stock exchange like Party Poker and Poker Stars.
Re:Ready...Set.... (Score:4, Informative)
There's no revenue here, the money was frozen, not seized (despite what the summary says).
Never attribute to malice what can more easily be attributed to stupidity.
Re:Another reason not to gamble online (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, I think that case was detected by outsiders who noticed a statistical anomaly when analyzing the performance of the top players on the site in question. It only happened because there was enough publicly available data to spot something suspicious.
Re:Who Trusts Online Gambling Anyways? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Who Trusts Online Gambling Anyways? (Score:5, Informative)
I work on one of the largest wagering sites in Australia, and a lot of thought and effort is put in to protect the sites against money laundering and other nefarious uses.
Our site is heavily regulated and audited by the Australian state governments, and our system already supports geographic distribution of taxes, based on the location of the account holder. The location of the account holder is verifiable, because we require a 100 point ID check to fully activate an account.
Through proper regulation, and well built systems, issues such as "who gets the tax" and "how can the site be trusted" are solvable, and have already been solved in many countries.
Re:Just splendid... (Score:1, Informative)
Insightful? What BS.
If it's nothing more than a game of chance then why are there professional poker players who are well-known to poker fans? How about knowing how to play the positions, number possibilities, and reading the other players in a live game?
You don't know a damn thing about poker.
Re:US v. $124,700 (Score:4, Informative)
The owner of the property still maintains Fourth and Fourteenth Amendment protections against unreasonable seizure. Seizing illegally obtained property is not unreasonable, and thus the Fourth Amendment isn't violated.
Also, you might want to reread the Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Amendments; the right to an attorney and the right against self-incrimination do not apply in civil trials. Further, the Fifth Amendment attaches only to persons, and the Seventh Amendment applies only to suits under the common law, which does not include the statutory basis of civil forfeiture of illegally obtained assets.
Sure, there are problems with civil forfeiture, but if you want to oppose the practice, it'd be helpful if you had even an inkling of an idea what the hell you were talking about.
Re:Lame Gov (Score:3, Informative)
Not true. While speeds below the speed limit may still be considered unsafe and attract a summons, any speed over the posted limit is prima facie evidence of unreasonable speed and is illegal on that basis alone.
Re:Another reason not to gamble online (Score:5, Informative)
I used to work as a programmer in a large Nevada casino.
The house regularly hires "shills" with good poker playing skills to sit at the table. The shills get a salary and the casino gets their winnings. That is how the house increases it's take
I see no reason why online casinos would not do the same thing.
You are just wrong about this. First, when the poker room hires someone to play to fill tables they are called props, not shills. Anyone familiar with poker would know this. Second, props are paid a small salary from the casino and play with their own money. They keep their winnings and eat their losses. Props have to start games and have to get up when the table is full so that a customer can sit.
The use of props is controlled by the state gaming commissions. You can always ask the dealer if their is a prop at the table.
Some on line poker rooms use props. I know some of the props and can tell you they play with their own money, too.
Re:Laws, schmores (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Lame Gov (Score:4, Informative)
Since when is "But the Republicans were doing it to!" a defense of the Democratic party? If anything, they should be doing absolutely nothing the Republicans were doing, but unfortunately we're just getting more of the same."
Well, let's see....the Republicans started it...so we shouldn't bitch about it when the Dems do it??
Geez, after only a few months into the new admin, they seem to be willing and anxious to run roughshod over more of the constitution than the previous admin, of whom I was angry at too. I mean, the current ones don't even make the pretense to care about the consitution or rule of law. The latest instance in the Chrysler and soon to be GM 'bankruptcy' cases...where they bypassed the laws that have been in place for hundreds of years of who should be paid off first. They screwed over the bond holders, and in lieu of paying them off first like they should they handed the company over to the Unions, that didn't have secured claims to monies....
And from the article:
" He added that it was not clear what law would cover the seizure of money belonging to poker players, "
IF they're easy to throw away the laws regulating contracts and investmens in the US, what makes you think they have any reservations about taking any monies from individual citizens. Hell, what scares me...this is just the start.
Apparently laws mean nothing anymore to the govt....it is a huge power and money grab, and we're just pawns in the game.
I'm afraid America as we knew it, is going away fast...and by the time the general populace notices it....will be too late to turn it around.
Re:Another reason not to gamble online (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Another reason not to gamble online (Score:3, Informative)
Why do you care who another player is playing for? Unless that player's contributions to the pot are not honored when you win, what difference does it make where his money comes from? What difference does it make where the money you throw in the pot goes, if it isn't going to you after you lose?
If the dealer can be made to unfairly favor the house's agents, then you should care. But I'm fairly confident that such behavior would be discovered. I say this because players of video games have determined detailed formulas for damage, stat growth, encounter rates, and the like. And those people only had ego, wit, and a bit of recognition on the line. Poker players have all that and money on the line.
Re:Lame Gov (Score:3, Informative)
If you put a proposition to the vote that would eliminate all taxes and double all government services, I bet that a freakishly large number of people would vote for it. Much of the /. membership takes no responsibility for governmental actions--they're just passive whiners.
Re:Who Trusts Online Gambling Anyways? (Score:1, Informative)
Points are assigned to various documents with different weightings. You must meed the 100 points with four documents, meaning you must use documents of high point value.
Most companies, including ours, also require that at least one of those documents be of a certain type.
For example, we require a valid state issued photographic id that contains your current residential address.
Generally to meet 100 points you need to provide:
- Current Drivers License
- Birth Certificate (original or JP certified copy)
- Current (with in 3 months) electricity or phone bill that contains your current address of residence.
- A non-expired bank card, with your name on it.
Re:Just splendid... (Score:3, Informative)
I make a LOT more now playing full time than I did working as a software engineer. I would not say I am a great player but I am a sh!tload better than average. Yes everyone gets an equal distribution of the same cards and same situations. It is the ones who have a higher understanding of the underlying statistical probabilities of those situations that will profit from the ones who don't. The University of Alberta has an entire team devoted to trying to solve poker. The best bot they could produce can only equal the best players in the world heads up and cannot beat the best players in a multi-handed games - and this is only limit hold em. To equate a game of poker to a game of dice shows that you understand absolutely nothing about the subject at hand. Dice is solvable - if you get 6:1 odds on your number coming up, your net result will be 0 no matter what number you chose in the long run. Poker is not remotely in the same domain. The information is incomplete. There is no simple case of "if I follow strategy X then I will lose the least / win the most" ie. a Game Theory Optimal solution. In a game of pure chance and luck such a strategy would exist. Please get your facts straight before trying to sound clever and coming off as completely ignorant.
Re:Lame Gov (Score:3, Informative)
Go look at the Federal Reserve. How fucked would they be if we subjected them to a standard audit?
Probably not fucked at all. You don't know much about audits. The Fed probably has scrupulously kept books, which accurately record the amount of funds that they are adding to the money supply. You're confusing auditability with fiscal prudence. Audits don't purport to measure whether a business or organization is healthy or behaving wisely. They attest as to whether the books are kept accurately with regards to certain accounting standards. I would be stunned if the numbers are inaccurate, as the Fed and US Treasury are fairly transparent. You can read about the Fed's doings every day in the Wall Street Journal.
Re:Another reason not to gamble online (Score:3, Informative)
When I played on Party Poker they used to give a prop offer about once a week. "Play at this table for $x/hour". You played with your own money, and the payment wouldn't even cover the blinds. It was an incentive to get more people to the table, not to increase their own take (the rake is always limited).