Discuss the US Presidential Election & the Economy 2369
A number of folks have been submitting topics that indicate that they want to have a serious discussion on the issues surrounding this election. Since we're under a week now, I've decided to run a series of discussion stories to give you guys a place to discuss the issue. So here's the first one: The Economy. It's the biggest topic these days, eclipsing even war as the most important issue to most Americans. But how will that affect your choice next week? And why?
Thank you, Taco (Score:4, Insightful)
any evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
none of the above (Score:4, Insightful)
None of the three candidates on the ballot here have demonstrated that they have solutions that fit within the limitations of federal government dictated within the US Constitution.
As such, I'm writing in "none of the above". The state board of elections has affirmed that they are going to disregard write-in votes for any of the people that I would like to write in, in spite of the state constitution's demand that all votes be counted.
Nutshell (Score:2, Insightful)
The party who cheats the most will win. Elections are only interesting when both parties cheat because only then is it a close call, with 1,000,000,000,000,000 votes going to one side and 1,000,000,000,000,001 going to the other... you never know how close to the edge to cut it, so it's always a thrill ride.
Re:any evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:any evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
No one knows how to bend the economy in certain directions, they just take stabs in the dark and hope for the best.
The real issue: voter suppression (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't care a whole lot who wins, if it is a fair election. That said, from what I have been reading, the republicans have pulled out all the stops in suppressing voters in groups that are polling strongly pro-Obama (e.g., active duty military, students, minorities.)
Who ever does win will not be able to keep election promises since the economy is probably going to keep getting worse.
Speaking of the economy, I think that the only real money that the government should spend is on critical infrastructure (education, roads, defend our borders in the least expensive way possible, support local agriculture and in general push local sustainable business and infrastructure,...) Notice that I did not include government sponsored health care (would be nice if we could afford it though.)
I think that it is obvious that the "being an empire" thing is not worth the money that it costs.
I already voted... (Score:2, Insightful)
... so this week's shenanigans won't change my vote.
That said, from 2002-2006, the Republicans were in charge of every branch of government, and for most of the Clinton years controlled congress. Their achievements are a matter of public record.
While they'd like to blame the current economic meltdown on Democrats from the '70s, it's obvious to me that the current mess springs directly from the spate of deregulation that's taken place over the last 14 years. The Republican party is responsible for that.
Re:any evidence (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Ridiculous (Score:3, Insightful)
"Under President Clinton the growth in debt ceased, but note the radical change in direction since George W. Bush entered office"
I notice that the radical change in direction started while Clinton was still in office.
Should we also mention that Congress, not the President, makes the budget.
Short answer (Score:5, Insightful)
Has there been any evidence shown that either guy running for president has any idea how the economy works?
Nope. One says "we'll just give people money, that'll fix it!" and the other says "we'll just cut taxes on businesses, that'll fix it!"
I just hope that whichever candidate wins realizes that he does not have a "mandate" from the people to implement every policy idea, and swing far to the extreme positions of his party. This is going to be a very close race, and he will have wound up being elected by just a slight majority of the fraction of the eligible voting population that bothered to actually vote. Almost nobody who votes for a candidate agrees with him on every single point; it's quite possible they disagree on everything but one or two issues.
Point is, winning by a tiny fraction does not mean everyone wants radical "change". 90% might indicate that, but 50.7% doesn't.
Re:None of this is important. (Score:2, Insightful)
...start actually fixing problems.
Or do you mean continue rolling over for other people's interests, since you effectively said, "I don't care"?
Re:Ridiculous (Score:4, Insightful)
Please. Let's wait for him to take office before making such proclamations. If you really think what he's saying today is what he's going to offer up tomorrow it shows that P.T. Barnum was right. BTW: Which minute were you born?
Seriously, he hasn't even won yet and the numbers of his "less taxation for the middle class" threshold are already dropping. Not to even mention that it's going to take us years to get out of Iraq in a "responsible" manner. Nixing the Iraq war spending is a big part of his budget and that spending is not going to change 01/20/09 either way. And every president faces the unforeseen that normally bites them in the ass.
I'm not trying to say the guy is an outright liar but he does not have the power to do what he says he will do and I think his optimism is just a bit over the top. No matter what the outcome of the election is there is going to be a political and social rift in this nation that the next president will have to deal with and that will likely hold up most of their plans for the nation if not stop them dead in their tracks.
I doubt either one will get more than 2 of their top 5 goals for the nation very far in their first term and I doubt that either one will have a real chance at a second. That's assuming that the economic sky really is falling. I'm still skeptical on that too.
Beyond the current crisis (Score:4, Insightful)
National Debt!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:any evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
Has there been any evidence shown that either guy running for president has any idea how the economy works? All I've seen is platitudes and empty stateents from both of them.
Like most politicians, the leading contenders don't have personal expertise in the field of finance so, no, they don't know a whole lot about how the economy works.
Nor should they need to. It is not necessary that the president has personal expertise in all areas relating to the running of the state. What /is/ important is that he surrounds himself with competent advisors.
What you need to watch out for is a candidate who /presumes/ to know /exactly/ how to resolve the situation and who justifies this with a reference to some ideology or other. Chances are such a candidate is much more interested in carrying through his ideology rather than in actually solving any problems. Candidates that devolve into generalities, however, are much more likely to enlist actual competent aid when it comes down to actually getting something useful done.
In this case, then, the question generally boils down to "does my candidate accept that there is a problem and that action is necessary?" and both top candidates seem to fit the bill.
Economy: a no brainer (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Short answer (Score:2, Insightful)
Point is, winning by a tiny fraction does not mean everyone wants radical "change".
Well, why on earth didn't someone tell Dubyah that eight years ago? He has radically changed the whole country without having a clue. I just hope that the little village in Texas is glad to have him back.
Re:Why not just have a forum section? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:any evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
Our CEO cannot program for shit. But he makes a great product happen. I would worry less about how much the President knows about the inner working of the Economy and more about whether that person has the skills to make decisions based on intelligence taken from the advisers they employ. Fingers crossed.
As far as the empty statements go. Well, that's politicking. Yes it sucks. But each of the two main candidates in this election have clearly polarized strategies for our Economy. Promisises aside, we can assume that each will pursue the general direction of their part. Let's hope whoever wins will follow their strategy in earnest (i mean assuming it's the person we voted for :) ) with their sights on straightening out this mess.
Re:None of this is important. (Score:5, Insightful)
Nobody's vote counts, and as soon as we realize that we can start actually fixing problems.
So your purposed method of fixing the problems is to allow the same asshats to keep getting re-elected year after year because you don't bother to vote or get involved?
It takes courage and conviction to resist the "vote or die" crowd, but it MUST BE DONE.
Yeah, it takes a lot of courage and conviction to sit on your ass watching American Idol instead of taking 15 minutes to go to the polling place and vote.
Re:any evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
Looks pretty similar, numerically, to the poll Scott Adams commissioned [slashdot.org].
For my money, I'd rather have the guy from the party that doesn't disdain education as "elitist"; economists may not be right all the time, but they're more right than the average Joe the Plumber. I'd rather someone who was more fiscally conservative, but since there is no (electable) fiscal conservative in the race, that doesn't matter.
Socalist (Score:5, Insightful)
I find it somewhere between hilarious and deeply disturbing that People can get up there and call Obama a socialist for wanting to tax rich people, while at the same time supporting the buying of banks by the federal government, which actually is socialist.
How is taxing rich people any more socialist than taxing the middle class? Were trillions of dollars in debt, this money is going to come from somewhere.
Also can anyone actually explain why we should be bailing out these banks in the first place? If we want to pretend to be capitalists we have to let businesses fail from time to time, especially when they bring it upon themselves with poor business practices like risky lending, and aggressive mortgages. Now GM is looking for a handout because they can't make a car that anyone wants and somehow thats the tax payers fault. (Meanwhile there's more Honda and Toyota manufacturing in the US than there is US manufacturing.)
It seems our whole economic system is unsound. Its all based on retail sales of mostly useless crap that is designed to fail or has planned obsolesence so you have to buy more. We hardly manufacture anything stateside anymore.
I suggest that we actually start focusing on high tech manufacturing. The stuff that can't be done on the cheap by unskilled labor.
Re:Ridiculous (Score:5, Insightful)
And the poor Republicans have been helpless victims for the last 8 years...They only controlled the legislature for the insignificant period between 1994 and 2006, so they clearly had no power to resist Clinton's evil ways.
Ah Clinton! Is there nothing we can't blame you for?
republicans are trying to loose (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems obvious to me. They've got this 80 year old cancer survivor, and a very inexperienced (in politics) governor from a state that has it's own rules about most things that are very different then other states.
Why would they try to loose? The economy is in the toilet, the US owes trillions, the US has a very poor foreign image. The Republicans have just decided to let the Democrats deal with the mess. Then for 4 years everyone is getting good and pissed at the Democrats for the lack of jobs, money, government safety nets of any sort (because there is no money for it).
After 4 years, the Republicans can come swooping back in to "save the day" from those socialist Democrats who obviously can't run a country.
End the War on Drugs? (Score:3, Insightful)
Translation (Score:1, Insightful)
What you need to watch out for is a candidate who /presumes/ to know /exactly/ how to resolve the situation and who justifies this with a reference to some ideology or other. Chances are such a candidate is much more interested in carrying through his ideology rather than in actually solving any problems.
Obama sucks.
Candidates that devolve into generalities, however, are much more likely to enlist actual competent aid when it comes down to actually getting something useful done.
McCain good - I think.
As far as the economy is concerned and if I am interpreting the parent correctly, I agree - as far as the economy goes. The trouble is that McCain let Obama control the talking points and as a result, he morphed into this Socialist Republican on the campaign trail - not good.
The other trouble is that most Americans have no clue how the economy works: they think the President controls it. Yes, the Government has some input into it (GDP number has a government spending component), but do they actually control it here in the US? Nope. And I would become quite concerned if the government starts controlling it. That would be central control and we'd be on our way to socialism. But then again, if we become a socialist country, I will sit on my ass, drink 12 year old scotch, and play with myself on the taxpayer's dime. Just a warning for those of you who actually want socialism; you will be working to support me because in a socialist economy, I will refuse to bust my ass to support deadbeats: I'll just become one.
Re:Simple (Score:5, Insightful)
The last thing this country needs is having the top 3 spots in the hands of Obama, Reed, and Pelosi, I have trouble imagining anything worse.
How about George W. Bush, Hastert and Lott?
I do find it amusing that the Republicans are resorting to the "divided Government" card and warning us all about the dangers of a single party controlling Congress and the White House. If they were being just a little bit more intellectually honest they'd end the argument with "Look how badly we fucked it up when we had that much power!"
Re:any evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Beyond the current crisis (Score:3, Insightful)
I noticed that, too. Obama has been unwilling to prioritize his proposals. I'm also disturbed by the refundable tax credits applying to payroll taxes. If you don't pay income tax now, you shouldn't get a tax cut.
Re:any evidence (Score:4, Insightful)
While this is true, I personally suggest not going to the competition for in-depth and thoroughly accurate answers. That's like deciding out whether or not a company should go with a Linux server based on the information found on a Microsoft website.
Re:hahaha (Score:5, Insightful)
The US is *bloody broken* after 8 years of "conservative" rule, including six years of absolute power, something the "liberals" haven't had for 30 years or so.
Whether liberals are better or not i don't really know. What I do know is of course the average person is going to be pissed at "conservatives". They've sent the US spiraling downwards in a way not seen since...well the beginning of the end of the Soviet empire.
In any case I spend a lot of time on this site and am rabidly moderate and in reality it's about 50-50 liberal/conservative these days. 8 years ago it was a little more slanted, though then it seemed to be wide eyed radical libertarianism that dominated here.
The funny thing is, and I keep noticing it every single time a "conservative" posts, they always whine on about how they'll be modded down by the "liberal whatever", etc etc. But get modded up at about the same rate as anyone else! You lot really seem to a have a *major* persecution complex which is bloody BIZARRE given that it's your party that's been running the US and setting the political discourse for nearly a decade.
You really are all starting to sound like a bunch of bloody whingers.
Man up.
P.S Current US "conservatives" seem more like ultra radical idealists than anything related to conservatism but whatever.
Re:is obama a marxist - Stupid? (Score:3, Insightful)
This is the dumbist thing I've heard out of the McCain campain - dumber yet is that people are swayed by it.
Obama's politics aren't even very liberal. If you look globally to other modern democratic nations in europe and elsewhere the democratic party looks like other countries conservative party (and the republicans, they are like right wing nationalists).
We have no viable liberal/progressive party in the USA comparable to what has had a large hand in shaping every other modern democracy. Obama's record hardly shows anything other than mainstream Democrat voting. The only person in all of congress that is label-able as a liberal is Denis Kucinish - he is 10 times more liberal than Obama. And he isn't even close to being a Marxist.
Dumb, just plain Dumb
(BTW, Marx is still an important part of the Social Philosophy discussion and syllabus, Being called a Marxist should be about as scary as being called a Nietzschen or Kierkegaardian - quite silly to use as a derogatory term)
Re:National Debt!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-- Alexis de Tocqueville
Oblig (Score:1, Insightful)
geroge parr [youtube.com] explains it.
Re:any evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
The constitution is flawed and even the original writers were aware of that which is the reason that there exist a process to amend it.
Re:Simple (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm pretty certain that is their argument.
Re:Incentives (Score:3, Insightful)
Think of these rebates as a form of economic convection, the money being spent and rising up to the rich. If you give people that are not shrewd with their money some extra money, they will spend it freely, injecting that money into the economy, thus stimulating it. It's fairly easy to figure out how this is going to work.
As well, this implication that Obama is a socialist for backing a progressive tax system but moving some numbers around to try and give the little guy a bit of a break is ridiculous. He is raising taxes back to the level that they were at under Clinton, and they are LOWER than they were under George H.W. Bush and Reagan. If anyone is a socialist (and a hypocrite by extension!) in this race it is Sarah Palin who supports massive taxes on corporations with little or no taxes on citizens in Alaska, yet they give out ~$2,000 rebates to everyone regardless of if they work or not. Maybe you should be decrying Palin as being un-American!
Seriously, instead of repeating talking points back and forth, why not do some actual reading about the issues and form your opinion based on that.
I do know is that this talk of un-Americanism would do Joe McCarthy proud.
Re:Ridiculous (Score:3, Insightful)
I get so sick of seeing all this credit given to Clinton for such a good economy. Damn, people. We're technologist!! Can you not remember back 8yrs to what was going on near the end of Clinton's era? Remember all the companies buying up new equipment to replace the stuff that was not Year-2000 compliant? Do you think that might have played even a SMALL part in a burgeoning economy? How about just after 2000, with everyone sitting on brand new 2000-compliant equipment? Think maybe the economy would take a little bit of a hit when nobody wants to buy any capital equipment, because they bought it last year? Now, Al Gore might have had something to do with that Year2000 bug prevalence, he being the inventor of the internet and all, but Bill Clinton, being a lawyer and real-estate mogul, most certainly did not.
For those that don't know, tax revenues walk mostly lockstep with the economy.
All I'm asking for is looking at reality a little when talking about this-or-that president being good or bad with the economy.
Re:any evidence (Score:3, Insightful)
I think am less scared of this than of the fact that most people voting don't have a basic knowledge of how our economy works, (or how our government works for that matter). This means that they will not listen to any candidate that has long term plans, or that wants us to suffer a little today, to be better off tomorrow. I mean were having this huge economy problem, and 10TRILLION in freaking debt, and both candidates are talking about tax cuts. Isn't cheap credit and lots of debt what got our economy into trouble in the first place? I'm not for a tax increase, but at a minimum, keep taxes where they are, since they are still putting us in the red at the current level, and start slashing government programs!
Re:what would it take for you to change your mind? (Score:5, Insightful)
That he was a little more American
Oh, blow it out your fucking ass. His life story isn't sufficiently "American" for you? I thought being an American was all about overcoming obstacles/adversity and being successful?
not half-Americans or whatever.
I wasn't aware of a blood requirement to attain American citizenship. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside"
Hmm. Born in Honolulu. Seems like he's an American to me......
Re:any evidence (Score:2, Insightful)
Some thoughts on the crisis... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll prefix my comments on the economy by saying I'm an American living and working abroad in the financial sector. So I work with some of the issues haunting the global crisis every day.
Direct blame for the mess lies first and foremost with credit ratings agencies (Standard & Poor's, Moody's, Fitch, et al) and credit insurers (like AIG). They continued to provide strong ratings to mortgage-backed securities without considering the ripple effect a housing-market slump would have. Secondly, blame should fall on US regulating agencies (like the SEC), which failed to place adequate restrictions on mortgage brokers. And lastly, blame should fall on politicians for failing to address the problem of excessive consumer and corporate debt. For years the world has known that America's debt-fueled economic growth was unsustainable. And yet for the past six years, few regulative measures were introduced to increase banks' capitalization ratios. Republicans seem more to blame here, as the six years of deregulation were largely Republican sponsored, but Democrats haven't been much better on this issue.
The Bush administration is not directly responsible for the current financial crisis. Note, however, that the Bush administration's spending spree of the past 7 years has put the government in a decidedly weaker position to now deal with the financial crisis. The government is now much more leveraged than it was when Clinton left office, meaning the Treasury has less flexibility to control markets. The USD is in real danger, and the only reason it hasn't collaped is that there's no alternative currency that investors can run to (Europe is hurting just as bad right now as the USA). The War in Iraq was never worth bankrupting our country.
Let me repeat that...
The War in Iraq was never worth bankrupting our country.
The US national debt has increased in excess of USD 500 bn per year since 2003 and broke through USD 10 tn on September 30, 2008. That means USD 33 000 of debt per resident of the USA, or some 70% of GDP!!!!
In 2000 it was just USD 5.7 bn (58% of GDP) and was on its way down.
I don't credit Clinton with producing the strong economy of the time, and am neutral on the net effect of his tax increases, but I do believe one of his administration's best moves was to use the budget surplus to pay down the national debt.
Make no mistake, the USA is in a very difficult position right now, and its global power is diminishing measurably by the hour.
Economic and foreign policy should be THE deciding factors in the coming election. Completely forget about welfare, abortion, gay marriage, global warming, immigration, job outsourcing, socialized healthcare, agricultural subsidies, AIDS, the war on drugs, executive pay, intellectual property, and religion in the classroom. If the American population realized how dire the situation is right now, these would be non-issues in this election. Real issues like the war on terror, dependence on foreign hydrocarbons, education spending, political reform, antitrust regulation, and social security are important, but should take backseat to the two most pressing issues today: foreign policy and the economy (i.e. eliminating the credit crunch).
Issues like interrogation techniques, warrantless wiretapping, and incarceration of enemy combatants without trial should never have been issues in the first place. Suspected terrorists, both at home and abroad, should receive the same protections that any American citizen receives. Period. I'm still terrified that some Americans think otherwise, and absolutely horrified that some politicians agree with them. Warrantless wiretapping is absolutely disgusting, especially considering the FISA already allowed for a court order to be obtained up to three days after wiretapping had commenced. When voting, choose the smartest candidate you can based on the two most important criteria: foreign policay and the credit crunch. For any intelligent politician, the issues of interrogatio
Re:any evidence (Score:3, Insightful)
Although it's a little grim I recommend watching Zeitgeist:Addendum http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ [zeitgeistmovie.com].
This movie gives an insight in the workings of the global monetary system and gives a reason for the current economic malaise. I'm not an expert on economic issues but at the very least it seems plausible and made me think.
It's a must-see for anyone thinking we as society can do better.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's probably more-efficient to let the IRS handle the rebates, rather than to have a separate Welfare department. That's the only good thing about Obama's proposal I can think of. Otherwise I reject the idea of income redistribution.
Well as somebody else has said in their signature:
The government is not your daddy. Its purpose is not to raid your neighbors paychecks, and give you their money.
Re:Ridiculous (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:any evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
They were wrong. part of the problem is Government intrusion into the market. The market should be allowed to determine what lives and what dies
What the hell do you think Greenspan did? Jesus fucking christ, that was his *entire policy*! And now what does he say? "Oh, sorry, I assumed self-interest would be enough for businesses to protect shareholders, but... I guess not." Translation: people are douchebags, and leaving the market to regulate itself is a recipe for disaster.
Mark my words, this disaster will see the end of popular support for libertarian economic ideals, for at least the next decade. And rightly so, IMHO.
Re:Short answer (Score:5, Insightful)
This is going to be a very close race, and he will have wound up being elected by just a slight majority of the fraction of the eligible voting population that bothered to actually vote.
Um, dude, I don't know how to tell this to you, but stop watch the news and start paying attention to the polls.
Obama is probably going to win this by over 100 electoral votes. Right now the polls say Obama 311 McCain 157 with 70 votes in the air. You need 270 to win.
As for popular votes, Obama is leading by 7%-8%, which is pretty decent for polling. 8% is around the winningness of Clinton in 1996 and Bush I in 1988, and all other elections since Bush I have been much closer. Even Reagan's first election was around there, the big conservative blowout election.
You can pretend it's not 'mandate' if you want, whatever that means, but in actuality Obama has managed to shift a lot of very conservatives areas into voting for him. Montana and Georgia are up in the air.
The media is pretending this race is close because the media is a bunch of morons.
Re:none of the above (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, and therein lies the problem with this election. (and society?)
Our country is too set on binary operations. I'm not talking about computers here. To most Americans there is a choice and an anti-choice. You either like, or you hate one of them which makes the other your choice. Anyone on the other side is wrong. Nobody even attempts to look for the other option.
FYI: Bob Barr is the other candidate.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why can't they just cut wasteful, federal spending....and let ALL tax payers keep more of their own money?
It's politics. To get support from, say, a senator from a particular state for a bill that said senator's constituents are on the line about, you have to give the senator something in return. Usually, this is in the form of earmarks.
There's also the massive "homeland security" waste going on, but nobody seems to complain about that.
Re:Why not just have a forum section? (Score:3, Insightful)
Your second sentence is in opposition to your first.
Let's remember that Barr [wikipedia.org] was the author of the "Defense of Marriage Act"; he radically opposed medical marijuana laws, going so far as to create the "Barr Amendment" that prohibited future laws that would "decrease the penalties for marijuana or other Schedule I drugs" in Washington, D.C.; proposed that Wiccans be banned from the military; and voted for the Patriot Act and for the Iraq invasion. He was the leading cheerleader for impeaching Clinton over a blow job, but said that as of this summer it's too late to impeach Bush [blogspot.com] for his crimes against the Constitution. ("Hey, you've really been ruining the country and violating the most fundamental law of the land! We're going to give you just half a year longer to keep it up!")
He claims to have changed many of these positions within the past few years. Maybe so. But he was either ignorant enough or dumb enough to buy into them a few years ago. In the former case, there's no excuse for an adult college graduate to be that ignorant; in the later, it's not like IQ radically increases in adulthood. (Unless maybe he had a brain disorder that's been treated?)
I'm really disappointed in both the Libertarian and Green parties this year for running washed-up bottom-of-the-barrel nutjob major-party politicians who are recently converts to their respective new parties. Being in a solid blue state (Maryland) I usually like voting for third-party candidates, since it won't effect the outcome of the election and might help ballot access next time around. But I can't in good conscience vote for either Barr or McKinney.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:1, Insightful)
Rebates could be a powerful policy tool. Slap at $2 / gallon tax on auto fuel and use 1/2 to pay down the national debt and 1/2 return as a rebate split equally among all those filing a tax return. Don't drive a car? You make a profit. Drive a huge SUV, you pay. The government should be using incentives to change behaviors when those behaviors have wide-spread negative impacts (eg increasing CO2 pollution which effects everyone, not just the driver of the SUV).
Re:Beyond the current crisis (Score:1, Insightful)
I like the idea of freezing government spending.
You do know that historically the best way to turn a recession into a depression is to freeze/cut government spending at that point? And the best way to avoid recession turning into depression is goverment spending (ideally on useful infrastructure).
Tax cuts are very little use at this point - people will just tend to save them. This is a *good thing* most of the time but not at this point in the economic cycle.
The time to *cut* spending and pay down the deficit is when the economy is booming.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:3, Insightful)
P.P.S.
Obama's so-called "tax cuts" are actually an increase. This year I'm paying approximately $2000 more since Bush's budget has been phased-out. Obama will offer a $1400 decrease, which means I'm still paying $600 MORE than what I paid last year.
Of course, to be honest, since I paid $15,000 in income tax last year, that +/- 600 is not a big difference. I think it's ridiculous that we Americans pay enough taxmoney to buy a new car every, single, year. At least with a shiny-new car I can use it to get to work or pick-up chicks. What has the government done for ME, personally, that's worth 15 grand?
(And don't say roads; money for roads comes from gasoline tax, not income tax.)
(Or SS or Medicare; that too is separate from income tax.)
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:5, Insightful)
Call me back when he goes all the way, and does NOT give a rebate to anyone that does not pay payroll taxes. Even if you work, and are below the threshold of paying federal income taxes...you don't pay tax and therefore have nothing to be rebate-ed.
Re: Republicans (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, welfare and income redistribution is doing horrible things in 3rd world countries like Denmark,Norway,Sweden,France,Germany,Belgium etc...
yes, but no, not actually, not even close (Score:5, Insightful)
I've heard this statement many, many times. I have seen zero evidence that it's an accurate assessment. I can flush these people out with two words: medical marijuana. Add in prostitution, pornography, gay marriage, stem cell research, and you have a handful of areas in which their preferred government is far from small or non-intrusive. The "conservative" approach to habeas corpus, torture, and secret prisons is the opposite of small government--it's flat-out totalitarian. So my problem, in a nutshell, with conservatives is not that they are conservative, but that they are liars.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:3, Insightful)
And the US citizens are supposed to be "Mugabe's" "Good Friends", and the rest of the world are just the usual bunch to be exploited.
So in the good old days, "Mugabe" would "print" money (USD), spend most of it and pass some of the money to his "Good Friends", while the rest of the world become poorer due to the devalued USD (inflation), since they are holding trillions of US Dollars to buy food, oil- and some of them even lent Mugabe (US Bonds) or each other money (also in USD).
Now the US citizens should figure out whether they are getting a fair deal from their Mugabe.
Keep in mind, more and more countries are starting to consider moving away from being so dependent on the USD and thus leaving "Zimbabwe". If this happens, then the US Gov cannot print money so easily anymore - otherwise the rest of the world would just laugh as the USD becomes worthless - since they aren't holding much of it.
He ran a historic campaign (Score:5, Insightful)
He devised, organized and ran perhaps one of the most brilliant campaigns in history. He took down the Clintons and the DLC in the primary election. He has managed what will be over half a billion dollars in donations. He hired some very smart advisers too. Good managers (which a president essentially is) know that it is important to hire smart people and trust them; Obama seems to understand this.
Early on in this election season, when asked "how would you act as president", Obama answered "look at how I run my campaign".
Works for me.
Re:Short answer-Pelosi-Reid-Obama (Score:2, Insightful)
If Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid get the majorities they hope for.
And they get their guy in the white house - a major radical agenda will be pushed.
They are the extreme left wing of the party and the leadership.
McCain is a moderate republican and would not have congress on his side.
His agenda won't go far.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm against Obama's plan to give tax rebates to people that do not pay federal income taxes. I'm sorry, but, if you get a rebate for something you didn't pay for, that isn't a rebate, it is welfare and income redistribution.
Ultimately the questions for conservatives is whether they believe that people have an inherent right to live, even if at the lowest standards of living, or if people that can work or can find work do have that right. Because if they do have a right to live, then we must be prepared to give those people some amount of charity.
I don't like how Obama is planning to turn Social Security into a progressive pay system like income taxes.
The 'social' in social security means 'the people' as in no matter what happens people shouldn't starve to death or freeze out in the cold in their old age. It does NOT mean 'your social status' as in what circles you can afford to hang out in and what diamond jewelry you can afford to wear. That's why a progressive 'social' security system makes a lot of sense.
Why can't they just cut wasteful, federal spending....and let ALL tax payers keep more of their own money?
Because MANY taxpayers get their money from military work, which would be the first thing cut if actually ridding the government of wasteful spending. They would keep more of their money anyway by falling into a lower tax bracket.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:5, Insightful)
NO NO NO NO NO NO!! It is NOT the federal governments job to mold a citizen's legal behavior!!! That is not what the federal govt. is authorized or instantiated to do by the Constitution. It is there for basic things...defense of country, an oversite of interactions by the states....etc.
Taxes should go for nothing more than things like infrastructure and the like. It should not be used to mold human behavior....leave that to the individual how they want to act.
I really had so many 'tax incentives'...they should be banned. Tax everyone the same, and no deductions for this or that. You want a home...buy it, but, don't expect a tax break for it. Want to have kids? Fine...but, pay for it on your own, don't expect people without kids to foot that part of your tax bill. I'm ok with taxes for infrastructure things like schools for kids, but, when you get a deduction just for having a kid, those without are effectively subsidizing you decision...and before you say it is in the best interest to encourage people to have kids, I've yet to hear anyone waffling on having a kid, and then go "Hey, I'll get a tax break...throw out the condom babe..we're gonna make a tax brea....er...baby". People fuck, and will continue to fuck...and have kids. So, let's quit giving them a subsidy.
Anyway, I got off track....but, taxes should not be used to manipulate behavior...that is not the business of govt. That is one way that we have allowed govt. to get too big and intrusive into our personal lives.
Re:any evidence (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, it's right the market should correct itself, it's full of fictitious capital up to its hair.
It's just a matter of thinking if you want to suffer the consequences of that "correction". It may stop the whole world's economy on its tracks and send billions of people to unemployment and starvation, resulting in worldwide barbarism and war.
The fanatic religion of free-market is similar to saying "Don't use medicine, the best people will survive the illness and Humanity will be stronger". It's true, but do you want to risk your own life or your children's in that competition? Is that the way you want to live?
The free-market (called "neoliberal" here where I live) has been publicized for decades as heaven on earth. It only brought greater inequality, environmental mayhem and deeper and deeper cyclic crisis. The current one is probably the worse ever and its consequences are unpredictable. And still, there are religious fanatics saying "The problem is that we haven't deregulated enough"!?!? Wake up!
Re:any evidence (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:3, Insightful)
Pretty much a moot point on getting out of Iraq. Both candidates have essentially the same views on it...a slow draw down on the war, pulling out troops ONLY as the situation allows based on the commanders opinion in the field over there. You really can't base your vote on the Iraq war's future at this time.
"Seriously, dude; shut the fuck up. People earning the minimum wage in this country don't even earn $15,000 in one year. If you earn enough to pay that much in taxes and can't get it together to live EXCEEDINGLY comfortably, then you're an idiot."
Well, a minimum wage job isn't really intended to be a LIVING wage job...those jobs are for highschool and college kids...if you didn't get your education and your jobs at age 40 entails wearing a name tag and asking if you'want fries with that'...you made some serious vocational errors in your life. It will be tough, but, get some education and get a better job.
That being said...paying $15K in taxes does not make you that wealthy. Just roughly estimating here...on 30% tax rate...if you paid $15K, you made only about $50K a year.
In many places in the US, that will not make you wealthy at all, you will be on the poor end of middle class. Even in an area where cost of living isn't as bad, you aren't rich if you only make $50K a year...especially if you have a mortgage and 1+ kids.
Re:My take and opinion (Score:1, Insightful)
I might have read your comment right through, but your childish and frankly bizarre use of the word 'Obamanation' throughout made me give up after a couple of paras.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:4, Insightful)
Great, but most of the people Obama considers "rich" aren't CEOs and aren't making 400x the average worker. So this point is entirely irrelevant.
The point that IS relevant, to me at least, is that already about 60% of our taxes are paid by the top 5% of wage earners. Over a third of all wage-earners pay no income tax at all. How is this remotely fair? Obama wants to shift the burden even more onto the top wage-earners, and calls that "more fair". Rubbish.
Actually, the war is still the #1 issue for me (Score:5, Insightful)
The economy WILL bounce back. What we're going through is big and scary, but for every person (or company) that made big, crappy decisions in the last decade, there is another person (or company) that was smart, saved money, and will swoop in to buy whatever Person/Company A can no longer afford to maintain, be it a house or a bank. So overall, we'll be fine.
But the war... I really don't see why we should be spending billions of dollars to make the whole world hate us even more, no sense mentioning all the lives lost on both sides.
Q1: why are we fighting this war?
A1: Because of 9/11.
Q2: THEN WHAT THE FUCK DID WE DO TO PISS THEM OFF SO MUCH THEY FELT COMPELLED TO FLY PLANES INTO FOUR MAJOR BUILDINGS? I don't think we're making it any better.
Tacoma Narrows Bridge (Score:5, Insightful)
Economists need to learn the lesson structural engineers learned in 1940, when the Tacoma Narrows bridge collapsed [youtube.com].
Structural engineers used to pride themselves on designing funicular structures - maximizing utility with the minimum amount of material. The Tacoma Narrows bridge collapse changed everything. Ever since, structural engineers have recognized that safety, not maximizing utility, is paramount. Building codes now universally require that structures be overengineered.
Now, where is the politician or economist who will publicly state that we should design our economy to be safe, rather than maximally productive? Even in the face of potential economic collapse, all we hear about are bandaids and growth, growth, growth. Anyone who would propose limiting growth in order to provide greater resilience would be tarred, feathered, and flogged.
Why is it so anathema to talk about safety nets? Why, for example, is it so evil to consider that the reason we need universal health care isn't because it's the most productive way to run our economy, but because we should all feel comfortable that basic humans needs will be met, no matter what the goddamn economy is doing? Perhaps economies of scale point to the need for uber-banks; but maybe instead of creating institutions that are too big to fail, we should consider that efficient or not, too big to fail is simply too goddamn big. On and on. Everything in the name of efficiency and productivity; nothing in the name of resilience and safety.
Every politician I've seen to date has been too chicken shit to state obvious truths. I think that's not really their fault, because the system they live in demands it if they hope to ever be elected. I'm voting for Barack, because reading between the lines, I think he gets it. At least more than McCain. McCain has some good local perspective on a few things, but he's just not a big-picture meaning-of-life kind of guy. He might know how to help businesses, but he just doesn't get the point of it all. Try to imagine McCain sitting poolside at a resort sipping a margarita, for example. I can't. To me, that's a fatal flaw.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:2, Insightful)
Ultimately I want a constitutional amendment dictating what our government can collect in taxes and spend every year (per capita). I don't care how it is collected be it gas/property/income whatever. For example if the goverment were allowed to collect 15K per person (this is an average - it could actually be split based on income or consumption). They would then be limited to spending 40-60% - except times of war which they could spend the additional 40-60% on winning the war. Now with the leftover money in peace we would then have a big chunk of money to start paying off our national debt, once that is done we can start saving, and once we have a National Nestegg instead of a national debt we can start lowering taxes and giving back annual rebates. This would limit the growth of government essentially to a percentage of the population. More importantly it will secure the future of generations of Americans.
Ultimately this comes down to a problem with perception. I know many people who believe in Universal Health-care, not because it is the right thing to do, but because it is expensive and the government can afford it more than the individual. This is completely wrong. The American goverment is more broke than the Jones'
Re:any evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
And then the socialists chime in...
It's one of those sitiuations where both sides have their good points. The free market system is by far the most efficient system. This has been proven over and over again by economic performance after free market reforms. On the down side, the free market is a boom and bust market. It has extreme highs, and it has extreme lows, and it's not fun to live on a rollercoaster.
On the other hand you have the socialist/protectionist model, where the market is severely constrained to fit a social/ideological agenda. This results in high prices, low productivity, high unemployment, and stagnation. On the other hand, it's stable, and there is less fear of living in a cardboard box.
Put them together and you get a more productive economy with milder cycles, more jobs, but with social programs to take care of those who can't take care of themselves.
The only real question is how much free market and how much protected market? Everyone has different views. I think we recently bounced a bit too free (in a few areas) in America, though then we made a massive socialist rebound with the bailout, so how the hell that balances I have no idea.
On the other hand, a lot of countries (cough in europe cough) have such high protective tariffs and such restrictive labor laws that their economic growth is weak, stagnant, or negative, and their unemployment is high. It doesn't really benefit anyone if 80% of the country has guaranteed (overpaid) work, but loses 60% of their income to pay for the 20% who can't get jobs.
In short, just because you like your religion, it doesn't mean other people can't like theirs too. And the real answer, as always, lies in between.
Executive Summary of Presidential Options (Score:3, Insightful)
Option A, Obama and the Democrats:
Option B, Plain, er.. McCain and the Republicans:
The bottom line is that the President is really a face for the country and appoints judges. I think Obama's fresh perspective will make the rest of the world happier (important for our trade relationships, etc.) and his likely choice to leave God out of the courtroom and put Man there instead will be our best bet.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:5, Insightful)
Ultimately the questions for conservatives is whether they believe that people have an inherent right to live, even if at the lowest standards of living, or if people that can work or can find work do have that right. Because if they do have a right to live, then we must be prepared to give those people some amount of charity.
First, charity is something you give of your own free will. Conservatives do a lot of this (in fact, studies have shown they give more to charity than liberals). Taxes and the government programs they fund are not charity, because taxes are taken against your will under penalty of imprisonment.
Second, I think you will find few if any conservatives who oppose helping people get back on their feet. We're generally all for giving temporary assistance to get someone through a tough time, because we realize everyone has bad luck sometimes.
However, I think you will find most conservatives do oppose handouts for folks who are not working but could. There's no reason to support freeloading for those who could work.
So in that sense, I think conservatives would support taxpayer funding for a "right to live" limited to food, clothing, very basic medical care, and shelter; provided that the person is doing their best to improve their own situation. In no way should we be taxing someone to pay someone else's cable TV bills though. A right to live does not equate to a right to live well on the public dole.
The 'social' in social security means 'the people' as in no matter what happens people shouldn't starve to death or freeze out in the cold in their old age. It does NOT mean 'your social status' as in what circles you can afford to hang out in and what diamond jewelry you can afford to wear. That's why a progressive 'social' security system makes a lot of sense.
Preventing starvation in old age was the original intent of the program. However, people now live much longer (thus withdrawing more from Social Security than they used to), but we haven't redefined "old age" to mean the same level of ability to work as it meant back then. So now SS is paying for general retirement of folks for decades of their lives, rather than helping the neediest and very oldest. That's a huge scope creep that presents a much larger bill than intended.
With the graying of the population, we also have many fewer people paying into the system for each person taking money out.
So the question is whether we can even afford to allow SS to continually grow as a welfare program for more and more able-bodied people, or whether we should put it back to its stated purpose of preventing the truly elderly from becoming destitute.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:1, Insightful)
Nice job!
Sadly for you, we weren't discussing he earned income tax credit, but don't let your ignorance prevent you from spouting off.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:4, Insightful)
(1) I'm not libertarian. I'm registered Republican who agrees with Democrats on some things (like legalized same-sex marriage). So bascially you're attempted prejudiced remarks ("He's a Libertarian! He believes this, that and the next thing") completely and totally missed the mark.
Don't prejudge people with arbitrary labels.
(2) I consider corporate welfare to be a worse evil than individual welfare. In my opinion, rather than spend ~$1.5 trillion on various bailouts, we should have left those companies die. They dug themselves into a hole with foolish investments; they can either dig themselves out, or collapse.
(3) I don't consider water under MY ground to be public property. *I* was the one who spent $5000 to drill a well into the ground and tap the reservoir, therefore the well belongs to me. The reservoir is runs under several of my neighbors' property as well. If they want access, let them build their own damn wells.
Same argument applies to any coal I find on MY land, or trees growing on MY property, or cows grazing on MY grasses. This is PRIVATE property, not public. I paid $130,000 for it, and it belongs to me, not you.
Government is not the answer to economic trouble (Score:1, Insightful)
Back in 1990, the Government seized the Mustang Ranch brothel in Nevada for tax evasion and, as required by law, tried to run it. They failed and it closed. Now we are trusting the economy of our country to a pack of nit-wits who couldn't make money running a whore house and selling booze?
Re: Laissez Fairre Economics (Score:3, Insightful)
Nonsense. There cannot ever be a completely free market. In any game, there have to be rules, and referees to enforce the rules. Without rules, someone invariably will do something extremely anti-social. That ruins the game, and then no one else will be willing to play.
Imagine what your neighborhood would be like if robbery and burglary were not illegal, or if there were no police to enforce those laws. I sure wouldn't want to live there.
In an economic market without rules, someone steals the money, and then the game is over. In a securities market without rules, worthless securities will be sold, the sellers will abscond with the proceeds, and then no one will be willing to invest any more. In banking without rules, some bankers will collect lots of deposits, and then just lock the doors and retire. After a few bankers do that, no one will be willing to put their money in a bank.
Rules and referees are essential in any game, including the game we call "investing".
If you read history, you will discover that Europe had a recession every few years and a depression about once a generation, for hundreds of years. That instability was caused by the absence of rules and referees in this game. The Great Depression was the last big depression, during which rules were put in place to help prevent another melt down.
The recent melt down is caused by deregulation. Many of our financial market regulations were repealed after the Republicans gained control of congress in 1994. Most of the rest were repealed after GWB became president. The SEC stopped enforcing the rest of the regulations, and went to a "voluntary compliance" model, in 2004. Three years after enforcement ended, we had another major melt down.
Every game must have rules, and referees to enforce the rules. And, the referees have to be willing to actually blow the whistle. Without rules and effective referees, people get hurt, then the game is not fun any more, and no one will play.
Re:any evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, they were forced to apply the same qualification standards as white people in ritzy neighborhoods about what they could afford to black people in slums. And, since those ritzy neighborhoods have lost more value than the previously redlined areas, it was a positive for the banks.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:1, Insightful)
>>>I've got a couple of points regarding taxation of the wealthy.
Yeah I don't give a frak about the wealthy. The only thing is: It's the wealthy who give me my job. If we tax them too hard, especially the corporations, then they won't have any money left-over to give the rest of us jobs. (Or worse they might pack-up and move to a country with lower taxes, thereby depressing the U.S. economy even further.)
There was a time when most employees understood they should not bite the hand that feeds them. Ask for fair pay, but don't be too greedy, else the company might lay everyone off. Somewhere along the line people have forgotten that basic foundation.
And finally:
Let's face it. Obama's tax increases also affect US. I'll be paying about $600 more under Obama's plan versus what I paid under Bush II, and I'm just a middle class employee (less than 100K). If Obama really, truly wants to tax the rich, then why am I paying more taxes? I'm not rich.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:3, Insightful)
Say you own a corporation -- not a mega-giant one, just your regular old mom&pop type. You work really hard, pay your workers, pay your expenses, and pay yourself everything that is left over. The government then taxes you on all of the profit you took out as income. If the government also taxed the "profit" the corp made before you paid yourself, you would be getting taxed TWICE on the same money. So for example if the corp profit was $100k, after corp taxes you'd have maybe $70k. Then after personal taxes and SS, maybe $50k, at which point you might just say "fuck it" -- 50% is too much tax -- fire everyone, and get a job from someone else in which you would earn more and be taxed less.
I'm entirely unsurprised that most corporations don't pay taxes -- most corporations aren't the size of IBM, MS, or Boeing.
Re:Short answer (Score:5, Insightful)
This American concept of "Them or us" fascinates me. You shouldn't be voting on that. You should be picking who is the best to run the country.
Even if 46% didn't want him to win, you should be voting for the president who is just as likely to look after that 46% as they are for 54%.
I recall the last election on fox news someone said did Bush have the ability to bring the two parties together. The response was "Why should he? He won".
I see the same with "social welfare". People seem to be more focused on someone else getting a hand out then what they get out of it. For example I pay social welfare contributions in my pay check. In the short term yes you can say some of that money goes to people who don't deserve it. But a lot of them do. Also it means I can get more from the government as well. For example my son school is 12 miles away and off the bus route so the government pays for a taxi for him to go to/from school because there is no where else closer he can go to.
People need to stop being selfish and work for the community as a whole.
Re:any evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
I follow what you are saying. However, the "right" is trying to use these types of laws as the reason for the foreclosure crisis we are in now. I can tell you that the bank I worked for obeyed those laws and did not make one subprime loan. If you look at the stock market, a lot of banks are not going through the same crashes as the National City's, Key's and other large banks. These are the ones that did not fall into the trap of "give a loan to anyone who is still breathing, and a few who aren't"
These "good" banks were subject to the same laws as the ones in trouble. So, pointing to fair lending laws as the culprit is bogus.
Another point, the Fair Credit Lending Act requires banks to take into consideration the borrower's ability to pay back loans. Can anyone tell me how that is possible with the "no income verification/no asset verification" loans? It seems to me that the feds are not enforcing the laws they have on the books. Having worked on some of the software systems for the mortgage area of a regional bank, I can tell you that was a requirement. Loans couldn't go through until someone certified that they saw copies of W-2's, 1040's and bank statements. Clearly this is a requirement, but some banks skated right by. There are a group of auditors who should be shot. Right after the CEOs who got their 8 figure payouts.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:1, Insightful)
1. Most of the "rich" being targeted aren't CEOs. 300 million US Citizens, assume 200 million are tax payers? The richest 5% of them are 10 million people and their children... Their are ONLY 500 Fortune 500 CEOs, and ONLY 500 S&P 500 CEOs.
Most of the rich are professionals with advanced degrees and short careers (highly specialized Doctors do 4 years college, 4 years medical school, 6 years residency & specialization, 3 year fellowship -- they are 35 when they earn a living, and because of the surgical specialization, probably can't work past 55 -- they make a boatload of money in those 20 years, but they only make money for 20 years, and they are the best of the best, if they did a 3 year law school program, they'd be making 100k-150k/year right off the bat, so comparing them to lower paid workers is unfair), small business owners that reinvest most of their profits (not all reinvestment is a tax write off, some has to be depreciated, and therefore you pay taxes now), or people in a good year. If someone earns $75k/year running a business for 10 years, but sells it in one year for $300k, the tax code treats that as them earning all that money in that year (capital gains rates don't apply in small business transactions, people buy assets, not the stock), but really that's $30k/year for his work, making him middle class, but Obama would tax that year's gains as though he made it each year.
2. Correct, big rich corporations often cheat the system to avoid showing profit to avoid paying taxes. So what's the point of a higher corporate tax rate that Obama wants? Makes you feel good? Want to sock it to the 30% of the corporations that are honest and pay taxes? Want those 30% to throw in the towel and play games like the other 70%?
The lower the tax rate, the less incentive there is to play games. It costs money to play games, because you deploy your capital less efficiently... If I need a 10% return after taxes, I can make 10% in a tax dodge, or 13.5% in a taxable way, we'd all be better off if I made 13.5%, because I grew the economy, but I'm indifferent because of taxes.
3. Clamor all you want... The last time we had these left wing guys in charge, we did what Obama proposed. The rich put their money in tax shelters, and the economy crumbled. Reagan lowered the taxes, and they sold their muni-bonds, annuities, and tax shelters, and went to make money, and the economy boomed.
It's fine to want to sock it to the rich, but they generally hit you back harder. There is a reason that they are where they are, and we are where we are... those that get rich generally aren't inclined to let us take their stuff.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:4, Insightful)
>>>there just isn't enough waste to cut,
I used to work for the FAA and believe me there IS waste to be cut. You could lay-off 75% of the "web-surfing" staff who do almost-nothing, and still get the same amount of work done with the remaining staff. I imagine the entire government is rife with similar levels of 75% wasted labor that could be laid-off, thereby reducing U.S. labor costs to 25-30% current levels.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:3, Insightful)
Except that your original $10,000 is now worth considerably less due to inflation over the years. So yes, you did lose money.
Re:Short answer (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Short answer (Score:2, Insightful)
Both seem to be preaching "raise your taxes" and not "reduce the spending." In either case, raise tax on rich = rich not earn as much, not hire as many or fire some and also pass the tax on to the consumer, therefore the poor, middle, and upper classes get poorer. The other is raise tax on work benefits which directly screw the middle class and poor.
In either case, I'm hoping the one who wins (McCain) will not be able to do anything about any of their plans. The problem with Obama winning is that the Democrats (and extreme left socialists) will have a majority and ruling party. (Do we, yet, know if he is a legal candidate?
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:4, Insightful)
If that were true, then you'd expect the same pattern to be pretty consistent over time, right? But it's not - it used to be the case that more wage-earners paid at least something. Even low wage-earners should be paying some taxes, if for no other reason to make sure they have a stake in tax policy.
That may be true, but it's an extraordinarily small class of people. You might find a few rich retirees who have all their money in municipal bonds and live off the tax free interest, but even they are effectively paying taxes by accepting the lower interest rates on those bonds. (And these people, I might add, are not WAGE EARNERS.)
If your point is that rich people should pay more taxes than poor, then OK. My point is that they already do, vastly more. If your point is that we should clean up the tax code to prevent loopholes, then I couldn't agree more. But this has nothing to do with Obama's vs. McCain's tax plans, neither of which looks likely to reduce the 67,000 pages of the current U.S. Tax Code.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:3, Insightful)
Really? and who pays for things? Unless your goal is to live as a squater in a mud hut and wallow in ignorance, we need social services.
That means taxes. This is something you benefit from. Also, everyone with income pays taxes.
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm [moneychimp.com]
Federal spending is cut deeply into the meet. Critical things are falling away.
The president doesn't control taxes, congress does. If you are truly worried about taxes, then use that when selecting which congress person to cote for, not the president.
It is such a stupid thing for the president to do, but the public doesn't seem to understand one whit about taxes, so the candidates need to talk about this instead of important issues.
The real question for me is, who is the president going to surround him self with?
Like it or not, the republicans have surrounded themselves with anti-intellectuals.
This country needs more science, we need a president that has science advisors, we need program for strong math and science programs.
Math and science are critical, far more critical then taxes.
Social program are an investment. What we get out of the investment is far stronger then the very few who abuse it's intent.
We ahve to have a road to the next class and people need the opportunity to travel it.
That is the corner stone to having a free and civilized country.
Just so u=you know, on almost every program the government has less waste then the private sector.
This is provable, just look at the books.
Frankly, I'd pay 50 cents more per gallon of gas if at least 40% went to the local schools.
I don't like spending money, but god damn it, if we don't fix education the only future we will ahve is working 16 hours a day for hardly any money building Chinas and europes electronics, and outr chuildren will be trying to get to Europe so they can have a better life changing sheets in their hotels.
We where the global player when there were more taxes, fewer poor and people paid for a well rounded public education.
Sorry for the rant, but I have looked at countries with low/no taxes. From a quality of life, they are worse off then 'social' countries with a 50% tax for everyone.
Anywho, Taxes are not a reason to choose which president to vote for, policy is.
Re:My take and opinion (Score:3, Insightful)
Okay, so you think the majority of the voters are racists. Right now it looks like you're wrong, which is fine by me.
So they think he's a good candidate, but they won't vote for him because he's the wrong colour? Doesn't say much for your friends, does it?
His name is Obama. Changing his name in some not-particularly-clever way tends to be a red-flag that what you have to say won't be particularly insightful or worthwhile. As for media coverage, I've heard plenty about both of these guys in the media, or are you going with the "liberals control the media so McCain can't get a fair shake" angle?
There's that stupid name thing again....Anyway, he has an economic plan, he has intentions regarding the war in Iraq, he has positions on the job market, and on and on and on. Are you simply unaware of what his positions are and unwilling to learn, or are you purposely ignoring them so that you can use the "empty suit" phrase.
So, first he's an empty suit that isn't going to change anything, but he's apparently going to change social entitlements, which you don't like either. At least this is something that we can work with, item, you don't like Obama because you don't approve of social programs to help the infirm, which includes yourself. Fine. Oh, and did I mention his name is Obama? You can stop typing after the second a.
Okay, so what are the secret plans? And also, how small a business was this that you spent 20% of your time in "our offices in the North"?
Obama. His name is Obama. Anyway, in what way do you feel he's like Carter? You're throwing out a comparison with no supporting argument.
Just because you personally seem to be unaware of his positions and unwilling to find out what they are doesn't mean they don't exist. Laziness or ignorance, which is it?
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds about right to me... the top 5% of wage earners earn about 60% of the wages in the country, so it seems fair that they should be paying 60% of the taxes.
Wikipedia says the top 1% control 38% of the wealth while paying 34% of the taxes, so based on that it sounds like the top 1% need a small tax increase (based on IRS numbers, the top 1% looks to be those making more than $388,000 a year for 2006).
Re:Short answer-Pelosi-Reid-Obama (Score:5, Insightful)
Just like Bush? (Score:3, Insightful)
With 9/11 we watched as the Bush administration tightened government control over many different areas of civil life. Something that normally we don't like to see Republicans do (they tend to lean towards less government). But the people issued a mandate that 9/11 MUST NEVER happen again (which is impossible), so freedoms were restricted in a vain attempt to discourage the immoral behavior of terrorists. Such is the way it works when you try to change people using the law.
So... it's a weird election. Looking at McCain's plans (which tend to change over time), it appears that he's wanting to let us control more of our money... including areas of health care, etc. People are tired though... and in a way, they don't really want their money, they'd rather pay extra to have the government control their lives. Obama says he can deliver that in a way that will make everyone "happy".
In a way, Bush is more of a pro-socialism Democrat.... his administration has increased a lot of regulation. In fact, I'd argue it was so strong, that it was no wonder that the deregulation of some of the banking/loan rules was so well received by Republicans and Democrats alike (until it was abused... money/power can corrupt good morals).
Personally, I don't think either candidate knows what to do. I predict that under Obama we'll have more government regulation (which as I said, makes sense to the lazy... we may be very "happy" for awhile). Not certain what we'd have under McCain. I think both are fairly unpredictable. Neither is a good leader. Both are extremely arrogant and proud of themselves.
I vote we vote to postpone the vote and see if we can get some good candidates to vote for.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:1, Insightful)
60% of our taxes are paid by the top 5% of wage earners
What % of total wages are that top 5% pulling in? Income distribution in the US is highly unequal - enough to concern even Greenspan. It's not unfair for tax burden to match it. You do have an obligation to your countrymen, and part of that obligation is financial.
Re:any evidence (Score:3, Insightful)
First, I don't live in "the rest of the world". I live in the United States. We have a culture. We have a way of doing things. It's nice that you have a different culture and a different way of doing things. Where I live, we call the ability to choose to do things differently "freedom". I think, historically, my country has been mostly prosperous. At least prosperous enough that a lot of people in other countries complain about how rich and powerful we are. With that in mind, excuse me while I don't give a shit where Obama would fall on the Socialist-Capitalist scale in your country.
Second, I have no doubt that Senator Obama would institute national wage and price controls in a second if he were given the power. His views that he wished the Supreme Court would rule on "economic justice" (60's style codewords for Marxism) is evidence enough. He knows he can't tear down our institutions like that. That's not the way it is done here. He has to tear it down one brick at a time. Just because he knows he can't get everything he wants immediately does not mean that he won't try to do as much damage as possible. He has to bribe the populace first. He seems to feel $1000/person will be enough to buy the votes he needs. Once the idea is instilled that it is right and proper for the federal government to take money from people who have earned it on an open and free market and give it to the idle and stupid, then it is just a matter of moving the mark of where "middle-class" falls. It started at $250K, but he isn't even elected yet and we've seen it go to $200K and now down to $150K.
Man hits a woman at a bar.
"Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?"
"Sure," she says.
"Cool." "I've only got $10 with me. Will that be enough?"
"What kind of woman do you think I am?" She questions indignantly.
"We've already decided that. Now we're just haggling over the price."
"We've decided you're a whore. Now we're just haggling over the price."
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:4, Insightful)
Why can't they just cut wasteful, federal spending....and let ALL tax payers keep more of their own money?
It's politics. To get support from, say, a senator from a particular state for a bill that said senator's constituents are on the line about, you have to give the senator something in return. Usually, this is in the form of earmarks.
There's also the massive "homeland security" waste going on, but nobody seems to complain about that.
There are two issues that need to be addressed here; earmarks and bipartisanship.
There is only one candidate in this election that has never taken an earmark. There is only one that is even promising to do something to eliminate earmarks.
There is one candidate in this election that has a known record of reaching across the aisle and working with the "other side". There is only one candidate that has ever criticized his own party.
If you think both sides are of the same coin, you should throw the rest of the rhetoric out, but these are the two issues that separates the two sides. These are the two issues where there is no debate because these are the two issue where the record over rules any campaign promises.
Re:You've really bought the Propoganda (Score:4, Insightful)
A better example of single-party government is hard to find, and you want more? Switching which party is in charge won't improve things; forcing the parties to compromise might. If nothing else it will slow them down.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:3, Insightful)
Ah...but, the person making $250K a year likely spends MORE than the $3000/yr that a person on a $30K income. They eat out at nicer restaurants more often, they buy finer foods, wines, booze etc than a lower income earner. So...I'd guess they spend in the ballpark as much as a lower income worker does on a sliding scale. If the $250K earner is eating out at the restaurant the $30K earner is working waiting tables...the $250K earner is not only helping to pay his salary, but, also directly giving him income via tipping.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:3, Insightful)
Indeed. I'm in the 33% bracket, and my wife and I together don't even have a 6 figure income.. and Obama think it's MY responsibity to "life up" the guy behind me? Fuck that. I'm still paying student loans from college, and so is my mom. Where are the people to lift US up??
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:4, Insightful)
What has the government done for ME, personally, that's worth 15 grand?
Your contribution bought almost four seconds' worth of War in Iraq. You can show your appreciation to GWB by voting Obama next Tuesday, or you can vote for the 72 year old douchebag who wants to keep fighting for 100 more years.
LIE! McCain said he would be OK with troops in Iraq for 100 years, just as troops are still in Germany and Japan, as long as they are not in any danger, much like they are not in any danger in Germany and Japan. What makes your statement a lie is when you said "fighting in Iraq..." This is the type of misquote that makes politics such an ugly, dishonest game and both sides are guilty. YOU are part of the problem, not the solution.
Seriously, dude; shut the fuck up.
Given what I pointed out above, you should take your own advice.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:2, Insightful)
On the first page of your own reference, you see that the number of us corporations with no tax liability is only 20-30% for large corporations.
That means that a few of the big corporations end up paying no taxes, likely because they don't make money that year. Corporations have up years and down years, so it makes sense that 1/5th of the time they don't make money (on average).
And what's a "Large Corporation"? Anyone with $50M+ in gross receipts. If you have a company that makes less than that (in gross receipts -- not profit), then the biggest it can really be is a small office with a small staff. That's the biggest of these small companies that make up the rest of your 70% number.
And you'd have us believe that these corporations have rich CEOs and teams of lobbyists.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's like getting blood out of a rock.
No, it's more like injecting blood into a rock, and calling it a "blood rebate".
If 95% of people are getting a "tax break", that means a lot of people that don't pay any taxes at all are getting a "tax break". And that's not really a tax break at all.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:2, Insightful)
The tax rate should be something very simple. Flat 5% on all income.
You make 100 a week, you pay 5 dollars in taxes.
You make 100 million in a week, you pay 5 million in taxes.
Everybody's happy.
Well, except the guy paying 5 million.
Thanks for the positioning (Score:1, Insightful)
And I'm going to take the time and not answer that question, because it's only a distraction away from the real issue of prohibitions against consensual acts and abusive authority. This is where we should focus our attentions. Between the two major candidates there's just not enough difference between them to effect my vote. Big business will continue to run the government no matter who wins, the war will go on, and probably expand, and thousands of people will remain in prison over possession of a plant. If you care about freedom, you will not invest in get rich quick pyramid schemes, and you will turn your back on these diversions. -- thankyouverymuch
Vote for me, and I'll set you free!
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:2, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:One-party system (Score:5, Insightful)
Debunked you say?
Legislative changes 1992
Although not part of the CRA, in order to achieve similar aims the Federal Housing Enterprises Financial Safety and Soundness Act of 1992 required Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two government sponsored enterprises that purchase and securitize mortgages, to devote a percentage of their lending to support affordable housing.[7]
In October 1997, First Union Capital Markets and Bear, Stearns & Co launched the first publicly available securitization of Community Reinvestment Act loans, issuing $384.6 million of such securities. The securities were guaranteed by Freddie Mac and had an implied "AAA" rating.[18][19] The public offering was several times oversubscribed, predominantly by money managers and insurance companies who were not buying them for CRA credit.[20]
In October 2000, in order to expand the secondary market for affordable community-based mortgages and to increase liquidity for CRA-eligible loans, Fannie Mae committed to purchase and securitize $2 billion of "MyCommunityMortgage" loans.[21][22] In November 2000 Fannie Mae announced that the Department of Housing and Urban Development (âoeHUDâ) would soon require it to dedicate 50% of its business to low- and moderate-income families." It stated that since 1997 Fannie Mae had done nearly $7 billion in CRA business with depository institutions, but its goal was $20 billion.[19] In 2001 Fannie Mae announced that it had acquired $10 billion in specially-targeted Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) loans more than one and a half years ahead of schedule, and announced its goal to finance over $500 billion in CRA business by 2010, about one third of loans anticipated to be financed by Fannie Mae during that period.[23]
It looks like the CRA actually had quite a lot to do with large numbers of sub prime mortgage securities being improperly rated and sold. Which is the basis of the current financial crisis after the people who obtained those loans began to default on them devaluing those securities.
The bottom line is that legislating that banks take on increased risk in order to provide loans to people who are unlikely to be able to pay them back was a bad idea. The banks tried to offload that risk onto other investors and because of the misrating of the mortgages they succeeded.
Re:any evidence (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry to break it to you, but having studied is career and history, you are just lying.
McCain totally changed all his stances, cozied up to the republicans and surrounded himself with the same people as Bush.
"He wants to trade soldiers for secular employees, true. "
Cite?
Based on his history, I will be surprised if change doesn't happen. And that's coming from a jaded old guy who has watched the republican become replaced with people who make decsions based on belief, group think, and spending maniacs.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, it is actually. That's the entire point of a minimum wage, to provide a living wage to low skill workers. Not everyone is smart enough or skilled enough to get a job in engineering. We need janitors, waitresses, cashiers, and bartenders, too. I for one would like my janitor to be able to afford a place to live without having to work 60+ hours a week. If the minimum wage is not enough even for a single, healthy person to make a living, then it is failing its intended purpose.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:2, Insightful)
I haven't been paying close attention to all the details, nor have I read any of the plans. Taking a huge grain of salt that the sound bites are accurate, if you take Obama's word that his plan means that people making less than $250K a year will not see a tax increase, I believe your less than 6 figure income would most likely result in a tax decrease under Obama's advertised plan. You are not doing the lifting up, the people making > 2.5x what you do are doing the lifting up.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:3, Insightful)
...my wife and I together don't even have a 6 figure income...
Where are the people to lift US up??
http://taxcutfacts.com/ [taxcutfacts.com]
Under Obama's plan, your family (income < $100K) benefits far more than it would with a McCain presidency. So the folks to lift you up are *right* *there*. All that's left is for you to vote for them.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:1, Insightful)
Ah...but, the person making $250K a year likely spends MORE
than the $3000/yr that a person on a $30K income.
They eat out at nicer restaurants more often,
they buy finer foods, wines, booze etc than a lower income earner.
The difference is that when hard times come, or just to save for the future, the $250K earner can choose to simply cut back. The $30K earner can't; they don't have a choice. So when hard times fall, they're more likely to be wiped out. That leads to destitution and suffering, but more pragmatically, it also leads to higher crime and less stability for society.
What often drives me nuts about these conversations is that taking better care of the poor isn't just trying to "redistribute wealth"; it's a pragmatic way to maintain stability in society, which benefits everyone. Just leaving everyone to fall on their face isn't just immoral; it doesn't work.
Re:any evidence (Score:2, Insightful)
No, Greenspan's policies of artificially low interest rates after the dotcom bust and after 9/11 primed the pump like crazy. That was the main cause of the real estate bubble.
Sorry, buddy, but low interest rates didn't force these companies to issue bad, or in some cases, outright fraudulent loans. It didn't force tthem into sky-high leverage ratios. It didn't force them to participate in the unregulated house of cards that is the CDS market. It didn't force them to trust the (IMHO fraudulent) rates from the likes of S&P. *Nothing* forced them to do these things, aside from unchecked greed. They did it of their own accord, and ran the entire financial system off a cliff as a consequence.
What I really want (Score:2, Insightful)
As occurs under some other political systems, I firmly believe the U.S. needs to have on every ballot "None of the above". In essence this would allow the citizens to issue a vote of "no confidence" in the candidates, and cause the system to "reboot" to provide more acceptable choices.
My own prediction is that given a "None of the above" option, a slim majority of all incumbents would find themselves out of work.
All to often, and I believe it is absolutely true in this case, the electorate is voting for the "lesser evil" among the AVAILABLE candidates. (In my opinion voting Libertarian doesn't accomplish the "None of the above" action, as it requires the voter to ignore the Libertarian candidates platform. It also raises the very real possibility that you end up with a candidate becoming elected, for whom no one REALLY voted FOR. This is not a solution.)
My children have hanging in their school halls George Washington's farewell address. I have pointed out the passage warning against parties more than once. http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=false&doc=15&page=transcript [ourdocuments.gov]
My personal, and usually pessimistic, view is that neither of the current candidates can prevent our country from sliding into either a depression (deflation), or hyper-inflation. Either are equally economically devastating. I also hold the view the U.S. is in many ways already a "third world country", and this condition will only worsen.
Ultimately, and I hope I'm wrong, I believe I and or my children will experience a second American Revolution. I hope it's relatively bloodless for my children's sake, but I see little hope of avoiding such an event in my children's lifetime.
Oh, my prescription regardless of party is to excise the Corporatism from the current political establishment. NO Corporate influence, no lobbyist, nothing even remotely like the current afflictions of our existing system. One citizen, one vote, no recognition of other than citizens by any elected official for the simple reason that entities other than citizens are not represented by the Constitution.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:2, Insightful)
A Crook is not practicing Welfare when he puts a gun in your face and says, give me only 33% of the cash in your wallet.
The government is not giving a company Welfare through "tax breaks". It is merely confiscating less.
People who pay no taxes and get a check back in excess of the SSI taxes from the government ARE getting Welfare.
------
Reporters are Idiots
Re:Captial Gains (Score:3, Insightful)
No, we aren't seeking investors? Why would we be? The nature of our business doesn't require investors, and I'm guessing the majority of businesses are in the same situation.
I didn't say I was opposed to paying for this. Absolutely I'd support this if I knew the money was being spent wisely.
However, I want to see the government forced to manage its finances in the same way we're all forced to do so. Up until now the government has been operating like a pathetic welfare case who knows that next check will always be coming in.
As I've stated, the Republicans have made an absolute mess of things. They've spent at an alarming rate. The terrorist attacks and the war are a flimsy excuse for how utterly wasteful they've been. And yet they have the balls to come back now and insist that they're going to cut spending and taxes. So you won't get a disagreement from me here.
Beyond that, however, what incentive does the government currently have to cut waste? And I don't mean cutting entire programs. I mean doing careful accounting to identify waste at all levels. Buying overpriced equipment and services, eliminating inefficiencies, cutting staff that's just sitting around doing nothing, things like that. Deal with government agencies enough and the waste becomes glaringly obvious.
And to your last point, that's a huge generalization. So I'm supposed to believe that all wealthy people have gotten to that point on someone else's back? What happened to the notion of hard work?
I've got friends who through persistence and dedication are earning a comfortable living. Are you suggesting that they screwed someone to get to that point.
And are you also suggesting that somehow the poor have all found themselves in that situation by accident? It was all a matter of luck?
At the other extreme I've got friends who in high school, decided hanging out with friends and having a good time was more important than school work. Some of them managed to graduate, but just barely. Years late I've run into a couple of them working at some local retailer almost certainly barely managing more than minimum wage. I also have friends who have put themselves into serious debt because they spent way beyond their means. Was that bad luck, or poor decision making?
Granted, it's not entirely their fault. I blame the parents for not kicking them in the ass and giving enough of a shit to ensure they stay in school.
So it goes back to my point about education. The parents and children alike need to be educated on the importance of education, hard work and planning for the future. They need to be self-sufficient, not depend on the government for handouts. Wealth redistribution doesn't work.
It's as simple as that, and frankly I don't see how anyone could disagree with this.
WSJ on Obama tax plan (Score:5, Insightful)
Just throwing out fuel for the fire: The Obama Tax Plan [wsj.com]
- The top two income-tax brackets would return to their 1990s levels of 36% and 39.6% (including the exemption and deduction phase-outs). All other brackets would remain as they are today.
- The top capital-gains rate for families making more than $250,000 would return to 20% -- the lowest rate that existed in the 1990s and the rate President Bush proposed in his 2001 tax cut. A 20% rate is almost a third lower than the rate President Reagan set in 1986.
- The tax rate on dividends would also be 20% for families making more than $250,000, rather than returning to the ordinary income rate. This rate would be 39% lower than the rate President Bush proposed in his 2001 tax cut and would be lower than all but five of the last 92 years we have been taxing dividends.
- The estate tax would be effectively repealed for 99.7% of estates, and retained at a 45% rate for estates valued at over $7 million per couple. This would cut the number of estates covered by the tax by 84% relative to 2000.
:
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:4, Insightful)
My 2 cents worth. (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the elections are now mere formalities.
The democratic and republican parties are mostly just fountain heads for corporate interests primarily, and secondarily places where people can believe democracy is taking place because they can "vote".
Look what is happening now. We just created a 4th branch of government, and nobody even batted an eyelash.
This fourth branch is far more powerful than the other 3, and the people in this branch cannot be voted out of office.
I am of course talking about Paulson and his Goldman Sacs cronies in the Federal Reserve.
I think personally it is time to start over.
Peacefully if possible.
If not, so be it.
-Hack
Re:any evidence (Score:3, Insightful)
The market should be allowed to determine what lives and what dies, Government propping up failed policies and institutions teaches no one a lesson, specifically the market.
I agree fully, but this 'market' you speak of is the mythical free market. The one you're pointing at, however, isn't free: it's cross-regulated by contradictory and politically motivated agreements, its key power nodes are run in collusion by ostensibly competitive agencies and industries, it is rife with corruption, and the whole thing is distorted by deception, misrepresentation and advertising.
In short, the 'market' is a rigged game, not an independent entity. You will have to do more than withdraw government interference to get anywhere near the idealism you propose.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:5, Insightful)
(3) I don't consider water under MY ground to be public property. *I* was the one who spent $5000 to drill a well into the ground and tap the reservoir, therefore the well belongs to me.
That works very well until I, who lives upstream from you, decide to dump all my perfectly biodegradable human waste into the water supply which drains down into your well. Or even less dramatic I buy a big chunk of land and cap off your water supply because I decided to open a bottling plant. Now you're both out of water and now you have to pay ME for the privilege of drinking it JUST because I happened to buy the property upstream from you. Basically what I'm saying is that your viewpoint is shortsighted.
Re:National Debt!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Neither major party candidate has mentioned addressing the crushing national debt or deficit spending. If I'm going to listen to platitudes, I want to hear about reducing spending and paying down the debt, not battles over who gets tax cuts.
I STILL have no idea why tax cuts are such a hot issue, right up there with abortion and gay marriage. There are so many freakin "Yes on 102" banners/bumper stickers/signs it makes me wanna puke. THAT is what gets you fired up about voting? You want to vote to take away someone else's rights based on YOUR religious beliefs? It's pathetic.
People want a tax cut, but they'll vote for the guy who sent us into a war that we never should have been in, one that is costing us MILLIONS of dollars a DAY, and that your grandkids will still be paying for... But oh, give me $300 in tax cuts next year. The sooner we get OUT of Iraq and stop throwing money away that we don't have, THEN we can start to discuss how to fix our debt. No matter what programs you cut, or how you shift the money, the war is the elephant shitting in the living room.
We, as Americans, are so very extremely short sighted.
"even looking after those less fortunate than me" (Score:5, Insightful)
Ever tried giving to charity? Then you can target the specific individuals, groups or unfortunate circumstances you want to positively affect, eliminating the expansive government overhead and waste inherent in such programs. There are even charity ratings sites that tell you how efficiently any charity gets your money to those who need it.
You can give your money away much more intelligently than the government can.
Save the poor Wall Street traders! (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Most of the "rich" being targeted aren't CEOs. 300 million US Citizens, assume 200 million are tax payers? The richest 5% of them are 10 million people and their children... Their are ONLY 500 Fortune 500 CEOs, and ONLY 500 S&P 500 CEOs.
None of the ultra-wealthy Wall Street and London traders who put us in the fucking mess we're in were technically CEOs; but, thanks to submissive right wing morons like yourself, they will be able to enjoy most of their ill-acquired wealth tax-free while the taxpayers are footing the bill for their Ponzi schemes.
Consider this: from the 40's to the mid 60s, the top income tax rate in the US and most western European countries was above 80%; and yet that was the time when those economies grew the faster.
The rich doesn't care about your jobs. They will happily give it to enslaved kids in a remote country if it can buy them another yacht. They are not your friends. It's cute of you to think of their welfare; they certainly don't give a fuck about yours.
My Starter List for "Open" Economics... CHANGE. (Score:2, Insightful)
FROM: http://politics.slashdot.org/~OldHawk777/journal/ [slashdot.org]
Capitalism (as meritocracy economics) is not speculative markets, trickle-down economics, pyramid schemes... for "get rich quick" greedy bastards/bitches.
Democracy (as public government) is not corporatism, oligarchy, plutocracy, communism, socialism... for the hubris of money-aristocracy citizens.
Human Values are inalienable rights and responsibilities. Values are never transient or religious (faux-moral) values as interpreted by clergy, cultures, governments, and fools who believe they know the will of Godddds.
RFC=Request for Comment on Economics for US, EU, RU...
RFC-0001, Economies can be built on ownership, but not on liability/credit. Incorrigible/recalcitrant debtor nations/institutions, businesses, and persons waste and abuse public resources for private gain, and betray the public trust "that citizens will behave responsibly" for everyone. Being a debtor should not be a crime, unless the real intent was not to pay (theft), but a speculative creditor that negligently (loss of business/professional license to practice), or knowingly (prison) participates in predatory credit activities. Predatory credit activities: (1) intent to obtain private property by loan default/foreclosure; (2) intent to provide credit instruments that not appropriate fixed time and rate; (3) ....
RFC-0002, A USA Constitutional Amendment requiring a balanced budget. Yes, there are always fine-points: (1) war; (2) catastrophes; (3) exigencies, (4) .... Always requiring all our creditors paid within six years, (without a war win) no great nation can survive creditors forever. We must always pay up in a timely responsible manner, and run budget surpluses to truly cut taxes/penalties for ourselves and the prosperity of our posterity (all else is political/economic bullshit) .
RFC-0003, No interstate/international bank/financial institution will ever be provided Tax-payer resources to prevent business failure/acquisition by competitors. Tax-payer resources should only be used at the community and/or lowest economic levels for public-works (infrastructure) contracts, and too guarantee capitalization of stable regional/local banks. Put bad banks, institutions, businesses... up for sale, and always payback the labor retirement funds (on a post 12 or 24 month value) first from any asset liquidations and other proceeds. Failing/legacy businesses are always replaced by healthy/growing businesses in a real "Capitalist" economy. Capitalist (circulate money/wealth) economies are wide-base community/public driven. Plutocrat/Top-down (trickle-down) economies are feudal at best, and frequently draconian at demanding citizens (the wide-base) sustain the corrupt nepotist status-quo (as in a pyramid fraud scheme).
RFC-0004, One-Tax will "Open" a wide-base fair-tax with few to no hidden evasions. The "Sales Tax" model provides many advantages over the present failed and despised "hide a tax on everything everywhere (gas, bread, cars, utilities, services...)." Example: Business One Sales Tax (BOST) at 10% (no exceptions, not even food, health care...) : (1) Family home sale 0% tax, but realtor "services" provided would be taxed at 10% and the realtor business/individual would pay the BOST; (2) Citizen (family/friend) sales a car 0% BOST, Labor employee buys a car for $20K the car dealer pays $2K BOST, C*O buys a car for $200K car dealer pays $20K BOST; (3) One C*O buys a $200K import dealer pays $20K BOST, One C*O buys a $200K domestic dealer pays $20K BOST; (4) Car repair cost $1K repair shop pays $100 BOST; (5) Family Farm Sales 0% BOST, farm equipment dealers pay BOST, Corporate-Farms Sales pay BOST for products sold and processed foods sold. IOW: Only a business pays the sales-taxes (no other taxes), sales taxes are not itemized on the bill but included in the goods and services cost. Minimum wage (at least) would be paid to all labor personnel (restaur
You don't discuss policy if you want to be elected (Score:2, Insightful)
"...indicate that they want to have a serious discussion on the issues surrounding this election"
Sorry, wrong country. Please move along.
Modern elections are all about negativity. People look for reasons to vote against someone, not vote for them.
Take gay marriage:
You pick a strongly pro view - every homophobe in America now votes against you.
You pick a strongly negative view - every liberal in America calls you a homophobe and now votes against you.
You pick a well thought out, moderate view - both sides decide you're wrong and vote against you.
About the only way to win is say, "Hmm... I believe I've always been clear on my views here." and leave everyone to think you support whatever they want to believe you support.
Multiply that across the war in Iraq (no good way to stay, no good way to get out), the economy (it's circling the pan for the next couple of years, even with the greatest people doing the best things), taxes (no one wants to pay them yet everyone wants the spending on their pet whatever-it-is) and all the rest and you have a situation that guarantees anyone who dares espouse an opinion will be hated by a large enough majority to ensure they lose.
A game I've been playing for the majority of this election campaign. You can try it yourselves:
Every time someone professes to be an Obama supporter, ask them to name/describe three of his policies. Out of several dozen people I've asked, every one of them tells me he's the new hope, that he's a stable guy, that he's not old... and ONE has been able to actually name three policies.
Obama has perfected saying absolutely nothing and all indicators imply he's going to win because of it. McCain pisses off the liberals by being a conservative, the conservatives by being a free thinker and made the mistake of picking a VP who keeps having opinions about everything, whether they fit the platform or not... and is on course to lose because of it.
So, by all means, debate policy amongst yourselves. But don't expect too much of it from any candidate who actually wants to win an election with the current electorate. By being the people we are, we've created a situation where no politician in their right mind would ever dare try it.
It just doesn't matter (Score:3, Insightful)
It doesn't matter to me who wins - neither candidate has the answer to the economy's current ills because the President is only one part of many that affect the economy.
I tend to think that a monolithic Democrat government will ultimately end up raising taxes and social spending while cutting military spending, resulting in large deficits.
I also tend to think that a divided government will ultimately end up leaving taxes alone, raise social spending and leave military spending unchanged, resulting in large deficits.
Neither one will do anything for the economy, which has to just let market forces sort things out. About all the government can do is make things worse - having lived through Nixon's wage and price controls, and having studied the Great Depression and other panics, recessions and depressions, I see that the federal government can do much to create a shallower but much longer crisis at the expense of a fairly short, deep crisis.
Either way, it doesn't matter to me. My job is safe, I make a comfortable living, but not enough to get hit by Senator Obama's tax hike. I won't see any of Senator McCain's tax cuts, either. I guess I'm too average.
Re:Thanks for the positioning (Score:4, Insightful)
True there is not much difference, but there is some difference, and that is actually important. Large amounts of change can happen in two ways:
We can slowly, incrementally progress towards the desired changes, carefully redirecting our society's momentum in a long slow curve. This is how our two party system has slowly evolved the government throughout history. We did manage to get out of McCarthyism and Prohibition, so all of our evolution is not doom and gloom, and has been fairly peaceful within the country.
The second way is to make a drastic change quickly, with the very real possibility that society will spin out of control. The Civil War is an example of what happens with a large change that comes about faster than it can be assimilated by our society. The violence surrounding so much of the Equal Rights movement indicates that those changes were pushing the limits of our culture's maneuverability. Those were good and necessary changes in our society, but the speed of change came with a price.
If you want to end the War on Drugs, look at which of the two viable options is more likely to end pointless ego wars and vote accordingly. You won't be able to buy or sell marijuana legally anytime in the next four years, but the choice America makes in this election will have a strong influence on legalized marijuana in the next twenty years.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is that if those people who requires a minimum wage aren't capable of producing "goods" (warning: my english is ugly) whose value is equal or higher than the minimum wage...guess what is going to happen? Right. They aren't going to be hired. Anywhere. Oh, *you* may pay it, but not companies. And it's not that companies are "evil" - if they pay their workers more money than the workers are capable of produce, the company will need to close doors. It sucks, but it's how the economy works.
In other words, minimum wage only encourages unemployment. It may encourage some people to pay better wages, but overall it's not a effective measure.
I'd rather setup some public education program for that people (paid with taxes from people - it doesn't matters because it's a good investment), or just give them money, than setting up a minimum wage. Because those measures would help them to be richer, while minimum wage doesn't. I understand that people who are for a minimum wage ask for it because they want to make poor's life better, but a minimum wage isn't going to increase the productivity of those people, which is the REAL problem.
Re:any evidence (Score:3, Insightful)
Wait a minute. 'Socialist' and 'Capitalist' are words, with definitions and meanings. You can't redefine them just because you don't agree with the dictionary.
Oh, shut-up already! Jeesh?
Socialism is not a discrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program; its branches advocate a degree of social interventionism and economic rationalization, sometimes opposing each other. Another dividing feature of the socialist movement is the split on how a socialist economy should be established between the reformists and the revolutionaries. Some socialists advocate complete nationalization of the means of production, distribution, and exchange; while others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy.
By any reasonable definition, Obama is *not* a socialist. He's a moderate capitalist -- to the right of Clinton, for god's sake.
With 'reasonable' being whatever you decide it should be today?
Assuming you're not a troll, the rest of your post is just hard-core ignorance. Look up 'redistributive change' and realize that it has nothing to do with money -- it's a specific legal term that applies to civil rights.
Let me quess. It means that we should take money from those evil wealthy people that earned it, and give it to those deserving individuals that did not? And Senator Obama gets to decide which is which?
Dodge the term however you like. I don't care. I just have one word for you: socialist.
The right-wing has hit Obama in any way they could, and that includes redefining words and phrases in any way that gives them an attack angle. They are lying to you, and you apparently are eating it up.
I think it was Obama that told a gentleman that we should be happy that Obama was here to "spread the wealth around". And don't go off about Joe the Plumber. He's immaterial. A placeholder. The defining conversation is:
Anybody:"I've worked hard, sacrificed, and suspended gratification to make more money. Are you going to tax me more?"
Obama:"You should be happy that we're going to spread the wealth around."
I've provided you with a link and some of the text from the Wikipedia article on socialism, a somewhat authoritative source of what socialism is. Go educate yourself. And stop accusing people of drinking kool-aid when you're walking around with a purple stained tongue. It makes you look childish.
Re:Short answer-Pelosi-Reid-Obama (Score:2, Insightful)
She is the epitome of the liberal women's movement.
[citation needed]
Re:Maybe because Slashdot is a geek site (Score:4, Insightful)
It's all about "voter suppression," most instances of which are better known as enforcing the law and trying to prevent fraud.
So the way you enforce the law is by purging people from the rolls if their name closely resembles that of a convicted felon using lists supplied by Choicepoint (better known for data breaches and inaccurate credit/clue reports)? Or do you enforce the law by challenging every single voter in heavily Democratic areas?
Nothing about Obama's extensive voter suppression during the primaries to steal the nomination from Clinton. Not enforcing the law types, but dirty tricks to single-out Clinton supporters and keep them from voting
If you are going to make an allegation like that it's helpful to have a citation or two. I worked with the Obama campaign during the primaries in five different states (NY, OH, PA, WV and MD) and I didn't see any voter suppression. That's my own experience and it's probably worth next to nothing for this discussion -- but hey you didn't provide a citation for your claim so why can't I use some personal anecdotes?
Nothing about ACORN committing massive registration fraud either.
Registration fraud != voter fraud unless the County Board of Elections is stupid enough to put Mickey House in the pollbooks and the pollworkers are stupid enough to allow him to vote.
Re:any evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
The Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) of 1977 has encouraged lenders to give credit to surrounding communities, particularly low and moderate income neighborhoods.
The CRA had virtually nothing to do with subprime. This has been debunked repeatedly, by others as well as myself. If you still can't understand that, there's no hope for you.
The outpooring of federal money into companies such as AIG is anything but a hands-off policy
And this has to do with the economic collapse, which happened before the bailout, how?
On that same note, the money from the $700b bailout ...
And this has to do with the economic collapse, which happened before the bailout, how?
Libertarians were harping on Fannie and Freddie back in 2003
Given that Freddie and Fannie were barely exposed to subprime prior to 2k7, I'm not sure what your point is. F&F had little do with the subprime, and it's a conservative fantasy to suggest otherwise.
Sarbanes-Oxley was supposed solve the most pressing problem at the time: accounting fraud. The SEC had its budget doubled, new laws imposed stiff fines and lengthy prison times were threatened. However, legislators were behind the curve and new problems emerged precisely because of our regulating authority's encouragement of unsound banking practices.
Bullshit. It's because they didn't regulate them in the first place. Let me introduce you to the unregulated, multi-trillion-dollar, collapsing CDS market. Or the repeal of the Glass-Steagal.
And then there's the Fed, which, with its low interest rates and steady supply of new credit, encouraged the housing boom.
Yup, can't deny that. OTOH, all that did was create the hunger for high-yield investment vehicles. The government then left the market to invent ways to magically get 30% return on investments based on subprime mortgages. ie, they left the market alone to invest how they saw fit, and they ran us off a cliff.
Or, to put it another way: unregulated financial markets *don't work*, which is what Alan Greenspan, cheerleader of laissez-faire economics, was forced to admit.
Re:Short answer (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:One-party system (Score:5, Insightful)
It looks like the CRA actually had quite a lot to do with large numbers of sub prime mortgage securities being improperly rated and sold. Which is the basis of the current financial crisis after the people who obtained those loans began to default on them devaluing those securities.
The bottom line is that legislating that banks take on increased risk in order to provide loans to people who are unlikely to be able to pay them back was a bad idea. The banks tried to offload that risk onto other investors and because of the misrating of the mortgages they succeeded.
That's only one part of the puzzle here. Yes, the CRA encouraged more risky loans, but that alone wouldn't have caused the problems. The banks aren't stupid and they don't plan to lose money on their loans. Nobody forced them to make the loans. They'll only make those risky loans when they think they are covered by insurance. That's what AIG was doing with credit default swaps [wikipedia.org].
The problem [npr.org] there was that those were deregulated back in late 2000 by the Commodity Futures Modernization Act [wikipedia.org], which allowed AIG and others to insure these securities without any disclosure or even a capital reserve requirement, things that are standard for insurance companies.
So, thinking they're covered, the banks start throwing money at everyone, and raking in huge profits on these securitized loan packages that nobody seems to really understand even now. They did it for the same reason that they always do things. Profit. Unfortunately, when the housing market went south, AIG had no way to cover those securities, and thus the banks were screwed.
Compound that with the problems with the ratings agencies and their symbiotic relationship with the financial institutions, the problems with trading software, the rampant speculation even by large institutions, bizarre assumptions about the housing market, and other issues that we probably haven't figured out yet, and you can see that it's not nearly as simple as pointing at the CRA as the source of the problems.
Re:ditch income tax (Score:2, Insightful)
Why do I always see PREGNANCY listed as an unexpected unanticipated unplanned thing? It's not freaking rocket science. Birth control methods are so effective and cheap nowadays there really is no excuse for getting pregnant when you don't specifically want to. Never was there a better example of "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail!"
If you have a kid when you aren't capable of supporting them you should be brought up on child neglect charges immediately after the birth. Getting pregnant and then having your life circumstances change beyond your control is acceptable but having a kid by "accident" should be criminal.
Re:Thanks for the positioning (Score:5, Insightful)
We did manage to get out of McCarthyism and Prohibition...
No we haven't. They both simply been more finely tuned to specific targets. McCarthyism hit the liberation movements in the sixties and the Muslims today. Alcohol prohibition netted too many good ol' boys, while today's drug laws nail the poor and minorities. And openly so. But make no mistake McCarthyism and Prohibition are as strong today as they ever were. And the civil war(oxymoron, if there ever was one) goes so far beyond the subject of slavery that it was hardly the real issue behind it. It wasn't a "cultural" war. It was as economic as all others are. A speed bump in the building of an empire.
You won't be able to buy or sell marijuana legally anytime in the next four years, but the choice America makes in this election will have a strong influence on legalized marijuana in the next twenty years.
Not so likely as long as we continue to be distracted by false "crises". Every effort is being made to dumb down the internet into TV in the name of "think of the children". We got "terrorism", an economic "emergency", "OMG! Idol's been canceled!"
It's might be easy for some to say "be patient" because they don't feel the effects directly. In the meantime there are innocent people rotting in prison right now. Some will die there. Thousands of families are being broken by gangland violence(Just another form of terrorism), all fomented by prohibition, not drug use. They should just be patient? Maybe if all of society got a taste of what they go through, we just might see the light and put an end to it a hell of a lot quicker. Unfortunately society's reaction is to become more fascist and demand more of the same. Right now the profit margins derived from prohibition are just too high to give it up so easily, so it won't go anywhere very soon. And the prison industry is the new slavery. BUT! I actually do have faith, but it sure does hurt to see it grind on so slowly. As a victim of the process, I did get a taste of what it's like. So...Sorry if I appear to be a bit impatient.
Re:Yes (Score:2, Insightful)
so you are saying that because someone was getting paid per registration, and this person filled out a couple of cards fraudulently, that acorn is now a dangerous and criminal organisation? please. if anything, it makes the contractor in breach of his/her contract, and possibly up for prosecution. nothing to do with acorn.
i realise this internet we have encourages free speech, and i would never try to oppose that, but come on dude. put your prejudices aside before you make bold sweeping statements about a third party.
Re:yes, but no, not actually, not even close (Score:3, Insightful)
But I've witnessed these diametrically opposed sentiments advocated by the same person, in the same conversation. It's just that when they say "small government," they don't actually mean small government. If you're a passionate advocate of states' rights when it comes to laws meant to curb racism, but you don't care about states' rights when it comes to medical marijuana, that isn't a conundrum at all. It just means that you oppose the civl rights laws and you support the ban on marijuana. They're just using the "small government" rhetoric to selectively undermine programs that don't fit with their socially conservative agendas, while programs they DO like get a pass. How many conservatives cried "activist judges!" when the SCOTUS stopped the Florida recount and just gave those electoral votes to Bush? None of them. They ARE liars, because they claim to be motivated by a desire for "small government," when in fact they are fine with any degree of big-brotherism as long as it fits with their worldview.
Conservatives, with very few exceptions, are not conservative. The worldview is supposed to be based on awareness of man's fallibility and a skepticism of government power, but they were behind GWB the entire time as he gutted habeas corpus, insisted that he could not be bound by any written law, and so on. The people who were ostensibly committed to small government are the ones most passionately advocating government secrecy, the Unitary Executive theory, indefinite detention, torture-induced confessions, abandonment of the Geneva Conventions, preemptive war, legal immunity for US troops and mercenaries, etc. These are not the actions of someone who is suspicious of government power. They have utmost trust in government as long as a Republican is running the show.
Believing that government can rightly keep anyone they want for as long as they want, in secret and without having to press charges or present evidence, and that government employees and contractors should be shielded from legal consequences when they torture someone to death, are not in any way compatible with a commitment to small government. These are not "oopsies." These positions are not aberrations, but in actuality reveal exactly what type of people they are.
Re:Thanks for the positioning (Score:2, Insightful)
So it is very reasonable to hope that Obama will answer not to corporations but to the people.
Possibly so. We'll just have to wait and see if he gets elected. So far his record indicates he's been pretty much a team player on the things that matter to me. And remember, big money does not play nice with rebels. And besides all that, the general public is fairly reactionary, otherwise people like Bush would never have won in the first place, especially a second time, so I'm just as concerned about populism as I am about corporatism.
Charity as an alternative to the gov't is a mirage (Score:5, Insightful)
Ever tried giving to charity? Then you can target the specific individuals, groups or unfortunate circumstances you want to positively affect, eliminating the expansive government overhead and waste inherent in such programs. There are even charity ratings sites that tell you how efficiently any charity gets your money to those who need it.
You can give your money away much more intelligently than the government can.
There are three problems with this:
First, you assume that a cause you support *has* a charity that's more efficient than the government. I note that you imply that inherent waste & overhead are a government problem but don't look at whether such problems apply to smaller charities. Nor do you discuss the differences in economies of scale between a small operation and a national operation.
Second, under this system only the most popular causes will receive adequate funds and other groups may slip under the cracks. The Federal government is limited in its actions by the 14th Amendment's requirement to provide equal protection under the law. Private charities are under no such obligation.
Think back to the 1950s, before the Civil Rights movements. Do you believe that poor blacks got as much charity and assistance as poor whites? Under a purely voluntary, charity-based system, unpopular groups may end up getting far less support than they may deserve based on their need.
Today, we see much of the same targeted, exclusionary approach in charities based on religious beliefs that turn away homosexuals or other "undesirables" or who require one to buy into some of their teachings before receiving benefit (or at least take advantage of a person in a vulnerable place). Just look at Scientology and Narconon.
Third, I have never once seen someone able to seriously argue that if you remove $X million dollars in federal taxation that $X million dollars (or more) will flow into charities for the needy. Taking away government social programs will NOT result in an equivalent amount of help coming from the private sector (and now out of the generous, goodness of people's hearts instead of from the filthy, grubbing government). All people are saying when they say, "Let the people choose what charity to give to," is really, "Let the people choose to say, 'Screw you, panhandlers,' and not give to any charity. I can obviously make better use of my money than those people, or they wouldn't be asking for it."
Frankly, the social costs of the alternative are why we have programs like Social Security in the first place. We didn't come up with a government program to give money to old people just because we wanted to get rid of the existing charity system. We did it because the old system was wholly inadequate and the social costs of an impoverished and unable to work segment of society (which we will all one-day join) was considered intolerable.
Same as the social costs of people unable to afford healthcare today. It's a drain on the economy and productivity as well as just being inhumanly callous to let people be sick because they're afraid that they can't afford to be well. We're the only wealthy nation that ignores this problem, and it's shameful. If the private charity system were working as people pretend it will, then we wouldn't even be *having* this discussion. End of story.
Re:Actually, the war is still the #1 issue for me (Score:3, Insightful)
Yup. And us putting US troops into Saudi Arabia had absolutely nothing to do with it. And our willingness to fund the corrupt ruling families of Saudi Arabia by not minimizing our use of imported energy had nothing to do with it either. And our funding of Islamic fundamentalist Freedom Fighters in Afghanistan to fight the Russians back in 1980 had nothing to do with it, either. Yes! Our hands are completely clean...
Yes. It's because they hate our freedoms.
Dangerous? (Score:5, Insightful)
Depends on what kind of dangerous you're talking about. I'm not thinking any kind of violence.
Couple? There are thousands. There were several thousand in just one instance where ACORN employees went to jail.
Let's see... an organization repeatedly violates federal laws and despite assurances leaves in place the exact system that promotes the law breaking (pay per registration) and miserably polices itself. I'd say RICO applies so, yes, criminal.
Musings on property (Score:3, Insightful)
(3) I don't consider water under MY ground to be public property. *I* was the one who spent $5000 to drill a well into the ground and tap the reservoir, therefore the well belongs to me. The reservoir is runs under several of my neighbors' property as well. If they want access, let them build their own damn wells.
Same argument applies to any coal I find on MY land, or trees growing on MY property, or cows grazing on MY grasses. This is PRIVATE property, not public. I paid $130,000 for it, and it belongs to me, not you.
Other people have pointed out that in many jurisdictions, you would simply be wrong about that water legally. Others have also pointed out that logically and ethically, that's not right either because you are taking the water from under *their* property as well. If they "build their own damn wells," then you're now in a potential tragedy of the common situations if all of you overuse the reservoir. This is why we have the aforementioned legal separation of aboveground and underground property rights.
You note that you "paid $130,000 for [your land]" and thus it belongs to you. Who did you pay that money to, and why do you think that they had the right to sell you the subsurface and water rights attached to it? What gives them (or you) the right to claim as personal property materials shared by all (like water flowing underground) or materials you are incapable of making use of (like coal buried where you can't access it)? What is the moral and philosophical foundation of that property right you claim, and why is it superior to the claims of others? Why do you deserve to able to claim that water and coal?
These are important questions to answer before simply claming, "Mine!" and expecting that claim to be good against the world.
Re:Tacoma Narrows Bridge (Score:1, Insightful)
Word. Decentralized systems for resilience and safety. There is a reason the internet is so fault tolerant and scalable and it isn't because there is one massive telephone switch board in the middle.
Re:Thanks for the positioning (Score:5, Insightful)
A very good point. However, one other thing the president can do is bring eloquence to the table. Obama has that in spades as well as more than average good sense, and I dare to hope that they will give him more power than just a veto.
I don't think he's perfect. I just think that the chances of him affecting things for the better are nonzero, which is more than can be said of McCain.
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:5, Insightful)
I tell them to picture themselves sick...or even worse, an emergency. And then, they have to basically go into the DMV to get evaluated and meds. I know how much fun it is for me to go in there, and wait for 3+ hrs to renew plates or drivers license, even when I DO have all the proper paperwork.
Stop kidding yourself, this happens now:
* Woman waited 19 hours in ER [chron.com]
* ER Waits Getting Longer [cbsnews.com]
Why? Because poor people don't have insurance. This hurts you in 3 ways:
1. They don't get preventative care, so their ailments don't get treated until their become serious conditions.
2. They don't go to a normal doctor because they can't afford one, so they go to the ER where they cannot be turned away.
3. They can't afford to pay their ER visits, so the hospital has to write off their expenses in providing that (expensive) ER care, meaning less revenue available to expand or improve services. And/or they raise prices for everyone with insurance to cover these costs.
This is with private insurance. Government-sponsored insurance has its own problems, but if more people had their basic health care covered, there's a strong likelihood we could improve health care efficiency overall.
Re:That's why I'm voting against a planned economy (Score:3, Insightful)
Most of my fellow Americans want a planned economy, since the Soviet system demonstrated such strength and utterly crushed America to finally end the cold war. I don't quite understand their argument, but that's what it is.
Why does it always have to be either the God-Blessed, American-as-Apple Pie Free (AS IN FREEEEEEDOM!) Market or Evil, Godless, Soul-Crushing Red Commie Totalitarianism?
Is this sort of extremist, black-and-white argument that keeps this country lurching around like a slowing top instead of trying to find the working balance that preserves competition and harnesses self-interest for good while preventing predatory practices and avoiding giving businesses enough rope to hang themselves with in the pursuit of short-term executive profit (instead of sustainable, long-term strategies to grow the company for the next generation).
What we want isn't a "planned economy," but what we also do not want is the Law of the Jungle. Neither situation is truly free.
I'm sure you are right (Score:5, Insightful)
If you take out the massive (and I mean massive) ground game.
If you take out his ability to leverage modern technology (do McCain supporters get text messages from their campaign reminding them of key dates?)
If you take out his ability to raise money from small donors and use it to drown out the competition (sounds like capitalism + democracy to me!)
If you take out his oratory skills
If you take out his sane policies
If you take out his levelheadedness.
If you take out all those things, yes, you are probably right, Obama is only brilliant because of these untalked about fear baiting strategy you talk of.
Re:You don't discuss policy if you want to be elec (Score:2, Insightful)
You pick a well thought out, moderate view
There is only one moderate view: it's none of your damn business if gay couples decide to get married, anymore than it is your business that inter-racial couples get married, which also used to be illegal.
Every time someone professes to be an Obama supporter, ask them to name/describe three of his policies. Out of several dozen people I've asked, every one of them tells me he's the new hope, that he's a stable guy, that he's not old... and ONE has been able to actually name three policies. Obama has perfected saying absolutely nothing and all indicators imply he's going to win because of it.
Then you're an idiot that hasn't talked to very many people. Quick, name all of Woodrow Wilson's cabinet members. If you can't do it right now, off the top of your head, it means they didn't exist.
McCain pisses off the liberals by being a conservative, the conservatives by being a free thinker and made the mistake of picking a VP who keeps having opinions about everything, whether they fit the platform or not... and is on course to lose because of it.
More garbage. McCain pisses people off because he's an incompetent [huffingtonpost.com] flip flopping [crooksandliars.com] hot head [rawstory.com] who can't make a single [amconmag.com] attack [topix.com] on Obama that doesn't blow back into his hypocritical face.
And Palin? She makes George W. Bush look like a knowledgeable, experienced polititican.
Re:what would it take for you to change your mind? (Score:1, Insightful)
Sadly, you really can't reason with the "He's not American enough for me" racist types.
Re:It amazes me how little most U.S. citizens know (Score:4, Insightful)
Nope. I'm guessing your aren't from the US. I'm guessing by 'social numbers' you are meaning our Social Security numbers, and no, those have nothing to do with voting. You don't have to have one to vote.
Actually, even when voting in person, there is very little required to prove who you are. Some states have enacted requirements to show photo id, but, some have stuck that down as unconstitutional. Where it has stood as law, is where the law had stipulations that allowed to give poor people an id for free, etc.
But, with an absentee ballot, there is actually very little proof needed. I filled one out, and I think at the most I might have had to have a 'witness' sign on a line that I was who I said I was. I don't remember exactly if I had to do that..I know there was a place for someone to sign.
But yes...it is generally that easy. That is why voter fraud IS important. Hell, it is hard enough keeping illegals here from voting...
Re:Ok..how about taxes? (Score:3, Insightful)
How amusing it would be to see all those who left Europe for the new world, for freedom and for the chance to create a better place come crawling back home after a couple of generations because they couldn't get it to work.
I'm in the UK and yet somehow I find that comment almost offensive. It's almost completely against the reason your country fought a war of independence from us; that you should put up and accept things that seem unfair. Isn't choice a wonderful thing: It certainly is, and whilst you are out spreading democracy to the rest of the world whether they want it or not here you are at home suggesting that those who have a different opinion on the way things should be just fuck off somewhere else.
While you're at it, why not tell the Ethiopians to move somewhere where there's water and food. The North Koreans to move to South Korea. The Palestinians to move to, err.. ..hmm.. uh, you think of somewhere.
Re:any evidence (Score:3, Insightful)
"Anyone that has a clue how the economy works is smart enough to not be in politics."
I bring forth Hank Paulson to disprove your claim. In 2004 while CEO at Goldman-Sachs he lobbied to get the leverage cap on the top investment banks raised from 12-1 to 40-1. This allowed him and his friends three years of nearly obscene profits and bonuses as they leveraged up. He then deftly jumped in to politics just in time to hand out another trillion dollars of tax payer funds to bail out his friends when that 30-1 plus leverage house of cards collapsed. I contend that Hank Paulson is in politics and outrageously smart in lining the pockets of the fat cats on Wall Street. Only people who question his character are all the working stiffs, retirees and tax payers who are being cleaned out.
The thinh most people forget about politicians, thinking they are all poor civil servants, is they often get both obscenely rich before entering politics and the can most definitely get obscenely rich when they leave when all the payoffs start rolling in from all their rich friends who appreciate the tax breaks, sole source contracts, low interest loans, and tax payer subsidized profits from things like Medicare D, Sally Mae, Fanny Mae, and Freddie Mac.
The smart people realize the real profit potential is in the revolving door in and out of government.
Re:National Debt!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
McCain has also promised more tax cuts and a longer stay in Iraq. These cost. Who's cheaper in the end? I'm not sure.
Re:Thanks for the positioning (Score:2, Insightful)
A very good point. However, one other thing the president can do is bring eloquence to the table. Obama has that in spades as well as more than average good sense, and I dare to hope that they will give him more power than just a veto.
He had the lack good sense to belong to a racist church for about 20 years. Some, reason he never noticed the church was a racist organization. He never noticed ACORN was breaking the election laws. He never noticed that he campaign paid the ACORN group money. I wonder did he notice that he was an lawyer for the ACORN group? Tim S
Re:Thanks for the positioning (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, I hold it against him that he belonged to a church. All churches are racist, or close enough: "Here's what we believe. We offer no proof. But if you don't believe it too you aren't one of us." But good luck finding a politician who doesn't belong to a church in this rationality-forsaken country. Americans, I've noticed, tend to be indoctrinated pretty early, never having a chance to learn reason before they're brainwashed by whatever religious organisation did the same thing to their parents. You see, humans all have a deep-seated tendency to be impressionable when they're young, and a good thing it is, usually. Some of us, the best of us, can realise our childhood biases and overcome them. But such people are few and far between.
Does Obama still belong to that church? Or did he, upon noticing that it did not respect his personal ethics, leave? If he stopped believing in god or the tooth fairy or what-have-you, then kudos to him, but those who can give up that children's tale after having been brainwashed since childhood are truly marvelous.
As for ACORN, why should I believe you over anyone else? I don't know firsthand what happened, but I find this [fightthesmears.com] just as credible as any other source, and vastly more credible than the people running the GOP anti-Obama spin campaign, whom I know for sure have repeatedly lied ("Obama wants to raise taxes on middle class families" etc), exaggerated trivial facts beyond absurdity ("Obama had an acquaintance when he was 7, who later became a terrorist. Cool!" etc...), and, having no message of their own, have done nothing but incite fear, suspicion, and hatred against the "uppity nigger." If you actually still believe their spin machine, I'd love to know why.
If you want a shit-flinging match, you probably ought to name a candidate more ethical than Obama. Ron Paul probably qualifies, but I don't believe that any other current candidate comes remotely close. If you're interested in the truth, you should fling all shit equally, try hard to find what washes off, and see which candidate really ends up smelling the worst.