McCain Picks Gov. Palin As Running Mate 1813
Many readers have written to tell us about McCain's choice of Alaskan Governor Sarah Palin as his VP choice. "Palin, 44, a self-described 'hockey mom,' is a conservative first-term governor of Alaska with strong anti-abortion views, a record of reform and fiscal conservatism and an outsider's perspective on Washington. [...] If elected, Palin would be the first woman US vice president, adding another historic element to a presidential race that has been filled with firsts. Obama, 47, is the first black nominee of a major US political party. The choice of a vice president rarely has a major impact on the presidential race. Palin will meet Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, in a debate in October."
Bad Choice (Score:2, Informative)
She tried to get a state trooper fired for divorcing her sister [bloomberg.com] and after that failed, fired his boss for not firing him.
Re:Good choice (Score:3, Informative)
Re:How is this news for nerds? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Bad Choice (Score:5, Informative)
She tried to get a state trooper fired for divorcing her sister and after that failed, fired his boss for not firing him.
True, she has been accused of this. But so far, the only people implicated in trying to get this state trooper fired are members of her family and staffers in her office, without her knowledge. The only documentation of any action by her pre-dates when she was elected governor.
I don't think it's going to get traction, because the state trooper isn't exactly a sympathetic figure. He was suspended for using a stun-gun on his 10-year-old stepson, and is alleged to have threatened Palin's father (among other things).
Story here, with links to background material: http://www.adn.com/politics/story/468174.html [adn.com]
Re:Well-rounded? (Score:3, Informative)
I didn't say it had to be ignore, but that it couldn't be outlawed or advance by acts of government. (Since we're talking public schools, here, we're talking government.)
No, they're just being more literal than most. Specifically, that the passage in Joshua 10 about the sun 'standing still' for several hours means that it's the sun moving, not us. And these people are still out here [geocentricity.com].
Re:Sure shes pretty and all but.... (Score:3, Informative)
Not quite. The actual quote [prospect.org] would be:
"Next, Carey asked about teaching alternatives to evolution - such as creationism and intelligent design - in public schools.
Palin: "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information."
(and yes, the following sig needs to be updated. again)
You link to an old article, try to stay up to date (Score:3, Informative)
The article you link to is over a month old. Here is a list of more recent stories from the Anchorage Daily News:
http://searchalaska.adn.com/sp?keywords=monegan&submit=find+%BB&aff=1100 [adn.com]
Sorry, this story is already getting amazing traction.
Re:Well-rounded? (Score:1, Informative)
I don't want creationism taught in a science class, though I think it makes a certain amount of sense to teach various concepts of the origin of life side by side. Still, I have no problem with creation theory being taught in some other class.
Re:Sure shes pretty and all but.... (Score:2, Informative)
Too bad your post is incorrect as others have noticed. That being said, I have never heard of Palin before today, but the more interviews I watch. the more I read, the more I like her. She has strong libertarian roots, has made a point to go after Ted Stevens - and the bridge to nowhere that Obama also voted for. What makes it more impressive is that she is in the same party. Finally a candidate not afraid to go after corruption at home, not just on the other side.
Re:Well-rounded? (Score:3, Informative)
I don't want creationism taught in a science class
Then you're talking about something different than what other people are talking about. There are people out there, people in power, who want to teach creationism as science -- some using the paper-thin disguise of Intelligent Design, some not even bothering with that -- and that's who most of us are trying to keep at arms length.
Re:Hahahah (Score:3, Informative)
I think that the opposite of your claim is true: McCain is doomed. He just destroyed the "Obama doesn't have the experience to lead" meme. Sure Palin is a hard right social conservative. But she also happens to be an ex-beauty queen with an ethical scandal in Alaska.
Ethical scandal? Really? She pushed for the firing of some cop who tazer'd his own nephew, and then threatened the life of his soon-to-be-ex father in law? Seems like a fireable offense to me. Regardless of how she's related to the family.
The social conservatives claim that women should be at home, not running for the Vice Presidency. Of course they're a bit inconsistent on this.
Pardon, but I think perhaps you may not be qualified to speak for "the social conservatives".
Re:Naked! (Score:2, Informative)
She's had 5 kids. I wouldn't bet on anything more than 'decent'.
Re:You link to an old article, try to stay up to d (Score:2, Informative)
No, this is only ONE thing. Read the other articles. Far from being fiscally conservative, she raised the Alaska budget. She doesn't know what the duties of VP are. She is rabidly anti-evolution. She supports Ted Stevens. She has no experience. Please, she's a terrible, terrible pick for VP.
Re:Good choice (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Sure shes pretty and all but.... (Score:1, Informative)
vpilf.com is also registered out of Scottsdale, AZ. 4 weeks ago. I call astroturfing.
Re:Good choice (Score:4, Informative)
She's running as the VP of a 72 year old candidate who has had a deadly form of cancer, and suffers from lifelong health problems related to his extensive torture. His odds of surviving the next 4 years are vanishingly small. The odds that she is both the republican VP and presidential candidate is very high.
Re:Good choice (Score:2, Informative)
Nope. Palin's first elected office was in 1992 and Obama was first elected in 1997. :)
Re:brilliant (Score:3, Informative)
Re:nice pick (Score:3, Informative)
Funny you should say that.
Sarah "hockey mom" Palin took second place in the '84 Miss Alaska beauty pageant.
Looks aside, I wouldn't call her a political 'outsider'. She's been in the business since the early 90's.
-b
Re:Sure shes pretty and all but.... (Score:1, Informative)
Hey my teacher taught use the theory of spontaneous generation and how it was proven to be not correct.
That's an excellent example of science. The theory of spontaneous generation was consistent with the observations at the time and it made clearly testable predictions. It was wrong, but it was science. The fact that it could be proven wrong makes it science.
Creationism, on the other hand, simply states that the world is the way god made it, and whatever happens next is what god wants, completely disconnected from any rules whatsoever. I suppose you could argue that the theory of creation predicts that a two-headed, three-breasted, purple angel will pop into existence across the table from me, but not to observe her equally proves that it's not gods will at the moment.
Re:Pandering to the Vagina Vote (Score:4, Informative)
What's sad is that when Democrats run women, it's looked at as somehow genuine but when Republicans run a woman it's looked at as pandering.
Because, when Democrats run women, it's based on a long history of, y'know, actually having supported women's issues.
Since Republicans have a long history of voting *against* things like equal work for equal pay, then yeah - it's pandering.
Unfortunately (Well, unfortunately for the GOP - I'm fairly happy about it), I don't think it's going to be very effective - I have doubts most of the GOP is actually familiar with her record. So the xenophobes that are going to be really ticked at a 'tacking towards the center' approach, are going to be really ticked anyway, while the moderates that might be gained by *actually* tacking towards the center will be the ones that look up her record and decide 'No Thanks'.
On top of which, we have a McCain campaign screaming about Obama's lack of experience, but anointing someone younger and with *no* national or foreign policy experience.
Pug
Re:Sure shes pretty and all but.... (Score:4, Informative)
For the sake of discussion Obama responded to that (in Q/A format) here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX67mlUyutM [youtube.com]
Re:Can we put the experience factor to rest? (Score:5, Informative)
McCain very effectively put the experience issue to rest by picking Palin, which makes you wonder what the last month of crap from him and his surrogates was about. Obama as celebrity? Palin has actually won beauty contests. Obama passes legislation with his name on it in the U.S. Senate; Palin governs a state with less population than Austin, TX. Palin is also a creationist, arguing for equal time in science class.
Magoo very effectively hijacked the media cycle with this choice, but one wonders why he didn't choose from a legion of much more qualified, experienced, effective female Republicans.
Re:Can we put the experience factor to rest? (Score:5, Informative)
We dont know what Obama stands for except that he for the most socialist policy that i have ever read...coming just shy to that of marxism.
Yeah, Obama was totally promoting all sorts of government and worker ownership of the means of production last night. Right after he did the crowd surfing.
Read a book [wikipedia.org] before you rant. And perhaps a reference on Obama's economic policy [barackobama.com], too.
*sigh*
Re:You link to an old article, try to stay up to d (Score:3, Informative)
Far from being fiscally conservative, she raised the Alaska budget.
Yes, to a record $6.6B. But, at the same time, vetoed $231M [alaskajournal.com].
She is rabidly anti-evolution.
This has already been discussed elsewhere in this article's comments. Such a claim will require more corroboration than you have offered.
She supports Ted Stevens.
That would explain why she cancelled his infamous Bridge to Nowhere [cnn.com].
She has no experience.
Yes, she is thin on experience. But, she has more experience in an executive position than both of her opponents, combined.
Re:My only problem with this pick is... (Score:5, Informative)
When the story broke, he was stripped of all committee assignments and asked to resign, which he refused to do. What more do you want, Nancy Pelosi to spike him in the eye with a high heel?
Re:Good choice (Score:4, Informative)
For most of that time she served on the City Council and later as Mayor of Wasilla, a town of between 5400 and 8400 people, depending on which estimates you look at. She spent 2003-2004 as a political appointee on Alaska's Oil & Gas Commision before resigning due to corruption, then ran for governor in 2006.
Being a council member or mayor of a town that small isn't in the same league as even a state senator position. Even when Obama was just a state senator he was representing a little under 220,000 people (calculated from population of Illinois over number of senators). Palin's experience as governor helps, but that experience only covers two years.
Re:Pandering to the Vagina Vote (Score:3, Informative)
How are you keeping an open mind when you haven't even bothered to check his legislative record? He's gotten major bills passed with his name on them in the U.S. Senate (e.g., the Coburn-Obama Transparency Bill). It's not the longest record in Washington but it's not the shortest either.
Re:Good choice (Score:5, Informative)
Palin's elected office:
Obama's elected office:
Rounding down, that gives Palin 8 years, most of which was at the city level, and Obama 11 years, all of which is at state level or above.
Re:Bad Choice (Score:3, Informative)
He was suspended for using a stun-gun on his 10-year-old stepson,
Which the kid REQUESTED, and not in a sarcastic smart-mouthing either. They teach these people that tasers are harmless. The kid wants to see what it feels like, ain't nothing wrong with letting him find out if you believe the taser is harmless.
Little experience and unqualified (Score:5, Informative)
I'm sorry, being a mayor of a town of 9000 doesn't qualify you to be Vice President, especially when the presidential candidate has age and a history of health problems going against him.
As for governor, Alaska has a population of 670,000, roughly twice the population of the CITY I live in.
Alaska also does not face the same challenges as other states. They basically don't have many taxes since they get all their wealth from oil, and so they don't have to deal with the budget issues other states have been stuck with. And she's only been governor for 2 years. At least George W. Bush had a lot more experience than that as governor of Texas. Also, they've been getting a huge windfall of revenue whereas most states are struggling to balance their budgets due to the high oil prices. There are no statewide income, sales, property or inheritance or state taxes (some localities have their own local taxes). Palin actually RAISED taxes on the oil companies and limited their exploration and development (which affects everyone else).
She has no international experience, or for that matter, any national experience.
Obama had millions of votes for him as a senator, several times the entire population of Alaska. Even as a state senator he represented far more people than she has as a mayor.
Re:My only problem with this pick is... (Score:5, Informative)
She said no thanks to Sen. Ted "Internet Tubes" Steven's 100 million dollar "bridge to nowhere",
Anchorage Daily News, 10/5/06: Palin Said She Supported The So-Called "Bridge To Nowhere," But Was Concerned Money "Flow" Was "Going to Slow" [juneauempire.com]
Might want to revisit your history....
Re:Quote from the Future (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah, but Quayle want creationism taught in schools like Palin does [wired.com]?
Re:Hahahah (Score:4, Informative)
You've missed the point that in no way was it her or her office's responsibility or duty to fire this guy. She strong-armed the guy's boss into firing him. It wasn't something she should have even been involved with. She overstepped her bounds and used her political office to gain revenge for a family member.
Point of clarification: As far as I can tell, Wooten (the state trooper) is still on the force. He was suspended for cause for 10 days, reduced to 5 days after a grievance was filed by the union.
http://www.adn.com/news/politics/story/510080.html [adn.com]
Reading between the lines, it appears that Palin's husband was responsible for a lot of the pressure.
Re:Quote from the Future (Score:5, Informative)
Are you kidding? From the Christian Broadcasting Network:
Palin Pick Causes 'Elation' Among Evangelical Leaders [cbn.com]
Palin's trying to run away from Stevens as fast as she can. She took money from the same convicted VECO guy that he did -- just not as much.
Re:Quote from the Future (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=300668510518137 [ibdeditorials.com]
Re:Quote from the Future (Score:4, Informative)
Evangelicals love her because she is so firmly pro-life, but she fights her with party all the time.
Re:Quote from the Future (Score:3, Informative)
While running for Governor of Alaska, Palin supported the open debate of creationism alongside evolution in schools;[41] however, she noted that "creationism doesn't have to be part of the curriculum" and that she would not use "religion as a litmus test, or anybody's personal opinion on evolution or creationism" as criteria for selection to the school board. [wikipedia.org]
Re:Quote from the Future (Score:2, Informative)
What were you trying to show with that link? Someone repeating a bunch of debunked talking points? Because that's what she's doing. For example, that "2000 acre" thing. The oil is not concentrated in one 2,000 acre area; it's in more than 30 deposits spread across 640,000 acres of Alaska's North Slope coastal plain (out of 1.5 million), which means stretching roads, pipelines, and other infrastructure that practically renders the area uninhabitable for large wildlife. Even if you only want to look at the "touching the ground" measure of how much land it takes up, the combination of oil infrastructure, drill sites, airports and roads, and gravel mines is *12,000* acres, not 2,000. No rivers in the North Slope? Um, BS [usgs.gov]. I mean, come on [google.com] -- you think that all the water on the north side of Alaska drains all the way to the south? I could go on and on. This is a woman who thinks that an animal that spends most of its life hunting on ice flows isn't going to be adversely impacted by their imminent disappearance, and you're acting like she's some kind of environmentalist? Give me a break.
Re:Pandering to the Vagina Vote (Score:2, Informative)
Or how sad how many Americans have fallen in love with Obama even though he hasn't done anything but blow smoke up everyone's ass? Maybe he'll be a great president.. I don't know because so far all he's done is talk about change.. changing what though?
He's been clear on what he plans to change and how he plans to do it. Check out The Blue-print for Change [barackobama.com] (Warning: PDF)
Re:Well-rounded? (Score:3, Informative)
Do you mind pointing out where it says this?
There are a whole lot of verses that one could cite, but I'm no biblical expert. Here are a few for your perusal though. Remember, you have interpret them strictly and literally.
Ecclesiastes 1:5 The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.
Note, it says the sun rises, thus it is the sun moving, not the earth spinning, interpreted literally.
1 Chronicles 16:30 tremble before him, all earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved.
Reinforcing that the earth does not move, thus other bodies are moving in relation to it, taken literally.
Matthew 4:8 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Since you can't see all of a globe from a mountain on it, the earth must be flat. There are also repeated references to the corners and edges of the earth in other verses.
Mind you, if you read any of these passages with a little bit of metaphor, one could easily open them up to much more reasonable interpretations... but then you have to consider the possibility that other parts of the bible are also metaphorical and that is something fundamentalists strongly oppose. Most reasonable christians subscribe to a view that allows more leeway for interpretation than strict literalists (who tend to be either disingenuous or poorly educated, since such a view leads to numerous biblical contradictions).
Re:Quote from the Future (Score:5, Informative)
Nary a rebellious thought in her head.
That's not quite true. She's a staunch Republican, but even so, she bucked the party on several issues, including helping kill the Bridge to Nowhere, boosting taxes on the oil industry, and vetoing a measure that would have prevented Alaska providing benefits to the partners of gay state employees. She also managed to defeat the incumbent Republican governor while much of the party actively fought her, pulling in 51% of the primary vote against two other opponents, something hard to do in US politics. She also managed to get the state's Republican Party head to resign when she reported him for working on party issues while on public time. She's apparently not willing to kowtow to the Party at the cost of her ethics.
Now, whether she's willing to cross ethical boundaries for other reasons is under investigation. McCain is in serious trouble if the independent prosecutor finds that she really did fire the state Commissioner of Public Safety for refusing to fire her brother-in-law during a contentious custody battle between him and her sister. If that ends up without a finding against her, though, she at least is unlikely to hurt him.
It looks to me like the VP candidates are balanced in terms of negatives (excepting perhaps the experience side), each with a possible black mark against them but mostly clean. I respect and admire Biden, but I'm interested to find out what Palin is like in more detail -- something I'm sure we'll be soon learning.
Re:Pandering to the Vagina Vote (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The Vagina option (Score:4, Informative)
Such declarations get bandied about so much that one hardly bats an eye; in my opinion, though, you've just lowered yourself more than anyone else here could.
I like McCaain, but from what little I've learned so far, this VP selection pushes me away from him a little.
incorrect: Obama has more government experience (Score:5, Informative)
she's a vicepresident candidate and has MORE government experience than Obama
Uhm, not quite:
From Wikipedia:
Barack Obama:
Senator:
January 4, 2005 to now (3.5 years)
Illinois Senate:
January 8, 1997 - November 4, 2004 (8 years)
Sarah Palin:
Governor:
December 4, 2006 - now (not quite 2 years)
Mayor:
1996 - 2002 (6 years)
Welcome to Math 101.
That said, I like her stance on corruption, but she's only the VP candidate, so being VP under someone whose campaign is pretty much owned by the special interests she spurns is going to cripple any chance she has of doing anything unless McCain kicks the bucket.
She's also a creationist, anti-abortion, anti-contraception (!), all of which adds up to someone that Hillary supporters will have a hard time with.
I dunno whether this is a smart move by McCain or not, but you rarely go wrong counting on voters to be stupid, so it may help in the end. The GOP doesn't represent Republican voters, as they're clearly not for smaller government or less government spending (see also: Reagan, Bush 41 and Bush 43 with a vengeance), or securing America (Bush 43, again with the vengeance), but the GOP always manages to sucker the Republican populace into *believing* they are for those things by *simply* saying they are. McCain doesn't have to win over any blue states, he just needs to tip enough states that are in contention.
Re:Quote from the Future (Score:5, Informative)
What were you trying to show with that link? Someone repeating a bunch of debunked talking points? Because that's what she's doing. For example, that "2000 acre" thing. The oil is not concentrated in one 2,000 acre area; it's in more than 30 deposits spread across 640,000 acres of Alaska's North Slope coastal plain (out of 1.5 million), which means stretching roads, pipelines, and other infrastructure that practically renders the area uninhabitable for large wildlife. Even if you only want to look at the "touching the ground" measure of how much land it takes up, the combination of oil infrastructure, drill sites, airports and roads, and gravel mines is *12,000* acres, not 2,000. No rivers in the North Slope? Um, BS [usgs.gov]. I mean, come on [google.com] -- you think that all the water on the north side of Alaska drains all the way to the south? I could go on and on. This is a woman who thinks that an animal that spends most of its life hunting on ice flows isn't going to be adversely impacted by their imminent disappearance, and you're acting like she's some kind of environmentalist? Give me a break.
Actually it means horizontal drilling at safe distances below sea level.
It's not rocket science.
Department of Geology at Univ. of Wisconsin
http://www.geology.wisc.edu/courses/g115/oil/4.html [wisc.edu]
http://www.horizontaldrilling.org/ [horizontaldrilling.org]
Natural Gas Horizontal Drilling
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/01/researchers-say.html [greencarcongress.com]
Geothermal Conference on HD
http://www.nationaldriller.com/CDA/Articles/Industry_News/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000399698 [nationaldriller.com]
NaturalGas.org
http://www.naturalgas.org/naturalgas/extraction_directional.asp [naturalgas.org]
Re:Quote from the Future (Score:1, Informative)
5. Would you continue state funding for the proposed Knik Arm and Gravina Island bridges?
Yes. I would like to see Alaska's infrastructure projects built sooner rather than later. The window is now--while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist.
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/08/29/did-palin-really-fight-the-bridge-to-nowhere.aspx [tnr.com]
She opposed the bridge only after it became apparent the whole world was laughing at them. She didn't do it out of principle or some grand corruption warfare. She did it for political gain.
Re:Good choice (Score:4, Informative)
Obama: 7 years Illinois Senate, 3 years U.S. Senate
W. Bush (pre-Presidency): 6 years Governor
Lincoln: 8 years Illinois House of Reps, 2 years U.S. House of Reps
T.R. Roosevelt: 3 years Governor
F.D. Roosevelt: 2 years NY Senate, 3 years NY Governor
Palin: 4 years city council, 6(?) years mayor Wisilla, AK, 2 years Governor
So what you're saying the GOP will say is that you can only have a President after baking them for 30+ years in the Senate? History shows otherwise.
Blatant Misrepresentation (Score:3, Informative)
She said no thanks to Sen. Ted "Internet Tubes" Steven's 100 million dollar "bridge to nowhere",
Anchorage Daily News, 10/5/06: Palin Said She Supported The So-Called "Bridge To Nowhere," But Was Concerned Money "Flow" Was "Going to Slow" [juneauempire.com]
Might want to revisit your history....
Nowhere in the story you link to is she quoting as saying that. The author was her budget director, and if you actually RTFA, he states that earmarks aren't a "free lunch" because of the consequences in involved, and in the following CNN article, she used the Bridge as an example of that. Sure, she'd have liked a nice, fat, free bridge, but the project would have stuck Alaska with 80 percent of the bill. So she supported killing it.
Here'a a real quote from her on the subject:
Gov. Sarah Palin said Friday the project was $329 million short of full funding.
"We will continue to look for options for Ketchikan to allow better access to the island," the Republican governor said. "The concentration is not going to be on a $400 million bridge."
Palin directed state transportation officials to find the most "fiscally responsible" alternative for access to the airport. She said the best option would be to upgrade the ferry system.
I made a very bad typo (Score:2, Informative)
I left out the very important word not. Race and ethnicity absolutely should not matter in a presidential election.
Mea culpa. Mea culpa 2^10 times over.
What does matter is his background and whether the voters are likely to make assumptions about his background based on skin color that are not necessarily true, such as assuming "he looks like me, therefore he must share my experiences" or "he does not look like me, therefore he does not share my experiences."
Re:Good choice (Score:2, Informative)
Palin was mayor from 1996-2002. Which would give her 6 years as mayor not 3.
Re:Quote from the Future (Score:4, Informative)
Well, you see, that's the beautiful thing about things like science and math. Sometimes things are simply wrong. Relativism need not apply in regard to these questions.
Re:Quote from the Future (Score:5, Informative)
Science is not a matter of belief, it is a matter of fact. That doesn't mean that science is never wrong, it does mean that all scientific claims are either correct or incorrect. Further, the definition of science requires that any claim (hypothesis) that warrants consideration must be one that can be right or wrong.
By terming evolution as a matter of belief or non-belief and putting creationism, in anything but the strict deism sense, into the same camp you only reveals your ignorance of what science is and what is required to be considered "scientific".
Since there is absolutely no conflict between deism and evolution (though deism is still in no way scientific), we must assume that all anti-evolution creationists is of the strict sense.
Teaching your children that there is some sort of choice between creationism and evolution is on par with teaching them that flat earth claims are up for debate as well.
Re:Sure shes pretty and all but.... (Score:5, Informative)
She has strong libertarian roots, has made a point to go after Ted Stevens - and the bridge to nowhere that Obama also voted for.
Obama didn't vote for the bridge. Why are you fabricating this stuff?
In fact, the media is trying to portray McCain as having aggressively opposed the the bridge, when in fact he did no such thing, and he was absent from all key senate votes on the matter: http://www.factcheck.org/outrageous_exaggerations.html [factcheck.org]
To McCain's credit he has been a reliable opponent of pork-barrel spending. But your post simply gets the facts wrong (about Obama's vote), and the media does as well when they portray McCain as having opposed spending on the bridge. In fact, you're even wrong about Palin opposing spending on the bridge -- she was initially in favor of it, and changed her stance only when it became clear how tainted the project was, and that there was no support for it in the senate.
Re:Sure shes pretty and all but.... (Score:5, Informative)
Made a point to go after Ted Stevens - and the bridge to nowhere that Obama also voted for.
On October 22, 2006, Palin told the Anchorage Daily News in response to a question specifically about the bridge:
Yes. I would like to see Alaska's infrastructure projects built sooner rather than later. The window is now--while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist.
Yeah. Using your congressional delegation's power to appropriate more money for your state. That's real libertarian right there. Her later statements to the same paper made it clear that she only killed the bridge after it was clear the federal government wasn't coming up with the bulk of the funding.
Re:More Quotes from the Future (Score:5, Informative)
None of this means a bit to people who believe in immortal souls granted by God upon conception. I think that's where the real argument lies.
In science, there is no debate about this (Score:5, Informative)
In a science classroom, in a public school, there is no 'debate' to be had about creationism. The Supreme Court made that crystal clear years ago - creationism is religious in nature [wikipedia.org], and has no place in a public school.
(And Intelligent Design [wikipedia.org] is just creationism in a lab coat.)
Re:Quote from the Future (Score:5, Informative)
, including helping kill the Bridge to Nowhere,
Actually, she was for [tnr.com] that before she was against it. Also she was against it only after it became apparent that the state would have to kick in serious $$$ that the feds weren't providing, *and* Alaska still got the federal dollars, just not earmarked specifically for that project anymore.
Not quite the maverick-y bucking the party line that McCain'd have you believe.
Also, she is anti-abortion (even in the case of rape), pro-creationism in science classes, a global warming denier, and has it out for polar bears [adn.com].
-Ted
Re:More Quotes from the Future (Score:3, Informative)
I find it strange that you picked a part of the bible where cain was attempting to hide the fact he just killed his own brother
I am no theologian, but the key point in his response is his antipathy toward his brother. The inference in Cain's response is basically "it isn't my job" and "he is big enough to take care of himself". It was a setup. So they say Cain was a murderer and a liar. Moving forward the new testament is littered with indirect references indicating that the core beliefs of Christianity is that we are our brothers keeper. Call it Obama's dog whistle call to evangelicals who have started to take up the cause to help the poor and see it as a responsibility of their faith.
Yes, within respect to their abilities and enterprise. Thomas Jefferson
That is a great quote, and quite idealistic. It assumes that all people are on equal ground and that those on hard times are their due to some flaw in their person or their forefathers. It completely ignores what happens when your job of 20 years gets shipped overseas, it completely ignores 200+ years of slavery and 400+years of institutional racism in the US. It completely ignores seniors who go bankrupt after a catastrophic medical condition.
Society doesn't serve a purpose.
Going all the way back to Hobbes many have concluded that society does indeed serve a purpose. Hobbes argued that the society was a group of selfish individuals that united into a single body in order to maximize their safety-- to protect themselves from one another. Locke proposed that education above everything else was responsible for forging the moral and intellectual character of individuals; he proposed in part an extension of education to every member of society and went on to conclude whenever that authority ceases to care for the welfare, independence, and equality of individual humans, the social contract is broken and it is the duty of the members of society to overthrow that ruler. Sound familiar? Which leads me to my next point, which should have read:
How far does society go?
Why provide public school? Why provide highway services? Why provide ? Simple. The reward to society outweighs the cost of the program. We education our citizens, ideally, to make them better citizens. Many countries provide healthcare for their citizens because it makes them more productive, they live longer, they are productive longer and hence are taxable for longer. Now, is their fraud? Sure, just like in business. But to me it is acceptable to help people in legitimate need, and run the risk of being defrauded.
And if you think that we don't protect people from hunger or disease, you need to wake up.
That is a typical idea throughout the US, and I urge you to challenge it. I challenge you to volunteer in the Emergency Room at your nearest academic medical institution. There you will see how well we protect people from hunger and disease. You will see women with lesions on their breast that look like they were stabbed, but it is really just advanced breast cancer because they have no primary care. You will see the elderly come in dehydrated, malnourished because there medications cost more than they have, so they just don't eat. You will see 40 year olds with limb amputations because of uncontrolled diabetes. 20 year olds dying from complications of sickle cell anemia, again from lack of primary care access. 8 and 10 year olds dying from asthma attacks. Yes you will see me too, because I actually work there.
With respect to food services, again, I would rather help 1 legitimate person and run the risk of being defrauded than not helping at all in fear of fraud.
food panties running out of food because college students....
That is just nonsense. The equivalent of the "Cadillac driving welfare queen"
90% or more of the actual poor people ge
Re:Sure shes pretty and all but.... (Score:3, Informative)
And I have not problem with creationism being taught as long as it is taught as science. So every bad fact they have can be pointed out.
I do. Creationism belongs in philosophy class, not science, because creationism makes no testable claims. Creationism says that the world we see is the world science describes, only god not natural processes made it that way. Dinosaur bones in the rock? God hid them there. Structural and genetic similarities in the tree of life? God did it. Why? God works in mysterious ways. No testable claims. Or, more accurately, any testable claims are then altered to match the outcome of the test.
Science class is where we learn how claims are tested. Philosophy class is where we learn to compare systems of thought and see how they differ. The Flying Spaghetti Monster [venganza.org] was invented to show now easy it is to make up systems of thought that "explain" the world we see without making testable claims.
Re:Quote from the Future (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, but so is she. [newsminer.com]
Her enormous popularity in the state took a hit this summer over her firing of her public safety commissioner, Walt Monegan, a former Anchorage police chief.
State lawmakers launched a $100,000 investigation to determine if Palin dismissed Monegan because he would not fire the governor's ex-brother-in-law, Alaska State Trooper Mike Wooten, who has been involved in a messy custody battle with Palin's sister.
A candidate complete with pre-made scandal. Outstanding.
Re:Can we put the experience factor to rest? (Score:2, Informative)
Except an important fact is that the Dems are trying to elect someone as president who has little experience, while the Reps are placing their low-experience candidate in the #2 slot.
The nice part about arguing with you wingnuts is that you're invariably full of shit on everything. George W. Bush's experience when he took office consisted of driving businesses into the ground and being the 5th most powerful politician in the state of Texas.
Re:Hahahah (Score:3, Informative)
Are you saying that a cop that tazer's his own nephew
Are you saying that just because somebody is related to a police officer, they should have some sort of immunity or special treatment from the police?
Please don't try to speak for me. Here, let's try this in a way you might understand that is equally relevant. If you had someone whose job performance you were responsible, who abused a tool of his job, whose boss refused to act on a fireable offense, would you deal with it? If not, why not? Say his job was to maintain medical records and he pulled records for someone he wasn't treating - no different, ethically, from tazering somoene who didn't need it. Would you ask his boss WTF they were thinking in not fixing the problem? Because I sure the hell would, or MY boss would ask me why I didn't fix it. Accountability works both ways. If the public hired me to take care of business, and someone who I had doing same for a subset of my responsible areas failed to do so, you're damn right I'm gonna come down on them and the person they're protecting.
Is it likely that she knew about this because the cop's death threat was to her own dad? Of course. Does that mean she should NOT have fired the guy? Hell no.
Re:Can we put the experience factor to rest? (Score:4, Informative)
You have no idea what you are talking about. Let us get one thing straight right from the start: I am a socialist. Obama will not be getting my vote, because regardless of his campaign rhetoric, his platform is in fact the same capitalist, pro-corporation shit that I see every four years. I thought for a short while that he may be different (though not socialist by any means), but suddenly he's changed from wanting to throw out NAFTA and CAFTA to this vague notion of "renegotiation." He also voted for the FISA bill and telecom immunity. None of that represents anything but the same old shit that I've come to expect from our bought and paid for government.
Now a little lesson for you. Socialism is not a welfare state. Socialism is democratic control of the economy under the people who perform the real work and provide us with everything we have: the workers. Nothing more, nothing less. Any enactment of socialism would require a permanent revolution at this point, due to how deep these multinational corporations have burrowed themselves into governments all over the world.
So let me tell you, as a socialist, that the idea of Obama being some sort of Marxist savior for the working classes in this country is, in short, fucking laughable.
Science is a philosophy of discovery (Score:5, Informative)
Creationism is a philosophy of ignorance. Ignorance has no place in a class dedicated to discovery.
Evolution:
Intelligent Design:
No recent discoveries, no predictions, no evidence, no tests that we can perform on it.
The roots of Intelligent Design mostly point to Michael Behe, a biochemist. What did he discover? Nothing. He looked at the discoveries of others, gave them a cursory analysis, and declared that God must have done it. Do discoveries, no predictions, and as far as he is concerned no falsifiability tests. God did it. That's final.
Then some folks actually took a look, discovered that the structures Behe asserted were irreducibly complex in fact were easily reducible [wikipedia.org]. Any retraction from Behe? No. He had made up his mind, and no evidence to the contrary will sway him.
So I quote again, "Science is a philosophy of discovery. Creationism is a philosophy of ignorance." - Neil deGrasse Tyson [youtube.com]
Re:Quote from the Future (Score:3, Informative)
Do you honestly think that we should be teaching creationism in science class?
Sure, and then examining exactly why it is not a scientifically valid theory... because it cannot be ruled out by observation. Creating a "taboo" is how these ideas gain traction. Just as I would say to compare other creation stories to theories on the big bang. I don't think she was suggesting we confront creationism in the classroom.
If you teach any scientific theory you have to be willing to attack it with reason otherwise it isn't science. It isn't good enough to say "this is the way it is" or "this was the way it was". Otherwise it isn't science no matter what you are teaching.
I can see the danger in high school teachers tackling real science, which is probably something they can barely comprehend in most cases. And the dangers of modern creationism or "Intelligent Design" is that they are skillfully formulated to fill in the gray areas of science with untestable ideas.
I think intelligent designers have it backwards though. Intelligence is an emergent property of the Universe as proven by ourselves and other intelligent creatures. In that this property emerges as a function of the natural world doesn't mean there was a primary intelligence starting it all.
But we can safely say that butterfly wings and eyes although beautiful examples of complex form and function are explainable through the thoroughly observed and well understood process of natural selection.
That the only examples of "intelligent design" in nature have been achieved through genetic engineering or selective breeding. But these are examples of an emergent intelligence acting to influence the "design" of another creature. Not evidence of God interceding from outside the natural world in a supernatural way.
So yes, current scientific understanding allows that aliens could have come to earth one day and said "Hmm I think that monkey needs a bigger brain" or "I'd really like a bigger more colorful wing on that insect" and fiddled with the DNA accordingly. It could even allow for the idea that every evolutionary step along the way up until this point could have been historically achieved by some agent of intelligence.
But today we can see natural selection in the lab. And we can document it in the field. We can describe the chemical processes that lead to it with some great precision. And there is no fact based reason to believe that anything other than the current process of natural selection was the predominant means and cause of evolution.
If a teacher can't openly, reasonably and dispassionately discuss this in the classroom or the kids can't eventually wrap their heads around it, then they should be in a remedial classroom.
Evolution is fact. (Score:4, Informative)
It is not even funny that there are people out there still arguing about this.
Our knowledge about vaccination, antibiotics, genetically modified crops and pure dog breeds are firmly based in the fact that species evolve by natural selection.
This is something observable today, I will not even touch the fossil record since some people don't have the mental capacity to understand why this is fact as well.