Obama Losing Voters Over FISA Support 1489
Corrupt writes "I've admired Obama, but I never confused him with a genuine progressive leader. Today I don't admire him at all. His collapse on FISA is unforgivable. The only thing Obama has going for him this week is that McCain is matching him misstep for misstep."
Who supports FISA? (Score:5, Insightful)
Are there any American citizens (who understand what FISA is) that actually support it? I would think that even the right should be against it. If conservatives want to restore traditional American values, then surely preventing the government from using new technology to conduct widespread domestic spying is conducive to that goal.
With both congress and the president's approval rating hovering at below 20%, it is clear that the will of the people is not being represented. The only plausible explanation for FISA is that it is intended an means for the executive branch to seize an even greater imbalance of power, and/or to cover up widespread criminal activity that took place in the last eight years.
Lesser evil (Score:5, Insightful)
That's why we always vote for Lesser Evil, not the Greater Good.
Democratic Party (Score:5, Insightful)
I've admired Obama, but I never confused him with a genuine progressive leader. Today I don't admire him at all. His collapse on FISA is unforgivable. The only thing Obama has going for him this week is that McCain is matching him misstep for misstep
Well, now that Obama has the party nomination, he can't possibly manage to get anything done. Now he has to support all the things Hillery wanted done, while making sure that he seems Conservative enough to attract some of the republicans that don't like McCain. If Obama tries to be different, he risks alienating long-time democrat supporters, if he tries to be the same he risks alienating all the people who want to vote for him for change.
Here's a hint: (Score:5, Insightful)
If a higher office candidate has a "D" or an "R" next to their name, they aren't progressive.
That probably goes for any letter, but those two in particular.
Sigh... (Score:5, Insightful)
FTFA: "Every time I wonder whether I can ultimately vote for Obama in November, given all of his political cave-ins, McCain does something new to make sure I have to."
Thanks for propping up the good ol' two-party system there with your thinking, ma'am. Seriously, there are other bloody candidates out there, and if you don't think you should vote for Obama or McCain, then vote for one of them! It really gets tiring listening to the thinking exhibited by most people, which locks us into the hellhole of a political party system we have.
Change starts with you, and all that.
Fudged the bucket (Score:5, Insightful)
The guy seriously fudged the bucket with me. I actually had some amount of faith in this dude.
This was the big test to see if he would collapse under the pressure of the telecoms. More money was offered so he decided to go with it.
I am very upset over this but I should not be surprised. He is just another politician. (But lesser of the two evils)
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, and in the true sense of "conservative," one would want to LIMIT the power of the government. But the problem is that "conservative" today is a way to masquerade as someone one's not.
And don't get me started on the other side of the pond; they're just playing like they're fighting the bad politics.
Re:Democratic Party (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:5, Insightful)
The right has this weird shifting thing going on. When they're in power the government is always right, and law enforcement should be able to do anything it needs to do. When they're not in power the government is eeeeevil, and law enforcement is made up of "jackbooted thugs."
Re:Democratic Party (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:5, Insightful)
Today's Republicans are not conservative, plain and simple. They're as "big government" as the Dems, the only difference is the flavor of said big government. I used to say that I leaned Republican and some issues, but now that's no longer accurate. I lean conservative on some issues, including this infuriating FISA bill.
My letter submitted to Obama's website (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:4, Insightful)
I was under the impression that Obama is not perfect but that he would always admit if he was wrong and quickly qork towards the right direction. I think this will be a big test of him in my eyes. If he never turns around on this issue it means he is clearly as stubborn as the rest. If he can admit he is wrong then hes better than someone who started out agreeing with me more.
Re:Sigh... (Score:5, Insightful)
The best hope we have of ditching the (current) two parties would be to reform the current election system, and support IRV or priority-based voting.
The gist would be that you could vote
1) Nader (only as an example!!!!)
2) Obama
3) McCain
4) Paul
If you wanted Nader to win, but would be happy with Obama, and *really* didn't want Ron Paul in office. If Nader fails to reach a simple majority, your vote goes to Obama. If he fails to reach a simple majority, it goes to McCain, and so on and so forth.
Personally, I'm pretty irked at Obama about this, but it's not going to change how I vote. Looking at the bigger picture, Obama's got a whole lot more going for him than against.
The EFF announced a new round of court cases today to challenge this law, which should hopefully make it through to the Supreme Court, where the law is almost certain to be struck down, even with a conservative majority of justices.
Re:Bills (Score:2, Insightful)
"Our war on terror"? Don't you mean "Your government's blatant war profiteering, uncalled for war, and eventual enslavement of the general populous through degraded civil rights?" It's not your war, it's their war.
Or, did you actually want to go out of your way to start shit in the middle east, earn your government millions (probably actually billions) as well as their companies', as well as give up your civil liberties to fight the OH SO INSURGENT terrorists in the homeland?
Yeah, didn't think so.
Re:Bills (Score:5, Insightful)
If you don't like the entirety of something, you shouldn't vote for it!
Why?
Eventually, someone will hold you responsible for the part(s) you didn't like, and all you can say is, "But I didn't like that part," to which they will respond, asking, "Then why did you vote for it?"
This is why legislators like Ron Paul vote against things: if they don't like the whole thing, they vote no, no matter how important any one part of the whole is.
A multi-cave (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not just FISA, there's also the death penalty for child rapists [crooksandliars.com] (is that "progressive"?), pulling out of public financing [mydd.com], and even being inflammatory on abortion [swamppolitics.com] despite being pro-choice in the past [lifesitenews.com].
I think I agree with the Huffington Post [huffingtonpost.com]. Is this the guy everybody got excited about?
Feingold (Score:4, Insightful)
Four years ago I saw an interview with Feingold, the democrat from Wisconsin. I thought he would be the one running this election, and now I wish he were.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:3, Insightful)
Are there any American citizens (who understand what FISA is) that actually support it?
You mean, outside of the congresspeople who voted for it, the telecom executives who authorized co-operation with the government in the first place, and the intelligence agents who ran the thing?
Probably people who think this is a crime committed to prevent a greater crime, a second terrorist attack on the US. You can argue this is not true, or that the cost wasn't worth it. But do you honesty think that people who believe this appeared necessary do not exist?
Tool in a war on what? (Score:2, Insightful)
Come again?
Tool in a war on what?
You do realize that there is a greater chance in wining a war on chocolate than "terror"?
You know... all that stuff about one being an actual physical thing and other being an idea.
Re:Democratic Party (Score:3, Insightful)
Every Democratic candidate does it, both losers like Kerry and winners like Bill Clinton.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:4, Insightful)
Did you just say that if he screws you over, then says, oops I was wrong... it's ok? Put the crack pipe down! How is he going to fix this is the question, not whether he was wrong or not. wow.
Re:Bills (Score:3, Insightful)
Long before the votes were cast, those weak amendments were destined for failure. Which makes Obama's voting for them an empty gesture.
The reason the details are not yet fully known is that the telecoms who did the wiretapping are not going to cooperate in an investigation. Giving them immunity removes the only leverage that Congress had in getting them to testify.
So it's very likely that it will be at least 50 years (and possibly never) before we actually come to terms with the scope of the wiretapping. And no one in the Bush administration will ever be held accountable for violating the law and the constitutional rights of private citizens.
I recognize that we're looking at a two man race, and all Obama needs to do is not lose. But on this issue (which is about the expanding power of the executive and has nothing to do with National Security) Obama could have made a clear, decisive stand and taken a position as a leader of the democratic party. Instead he chose to follow the herd, disappointing.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:3, Insightful)
While I despise them as a group there are a few I like. If you just have a fuzzy blanket hatred for them as a group, you're actually giving each one of them individually a pass- you basically have no opinion of them or their behavior. If your Congressman keeps voting for evil shit, it doesn't matter, because when the election comes you'll hate his opponent too.
Re:Look on the bright side (Score:5, Insightful)
This is my problem with conservative personalities these days. They try to take these things out of context to make it seem like what Obama says is horrible. But every time I look at the full transcript of what he says, he comes off extremely reasonable. This link didn't even hide the context. So really, what's the big deal?
The Honeymoon Is Over (Score:5, Insightful)
The rest of those things don't bother me much at all. I don't expect to share that many viewpoints with anyone, to me those are all small potato personal value judgements that people can reasonably disagree about.
The FISA bill is what is really disappointing. It's amazing how overnight it's completely destroyed my opinion of Obama. When is a politician going to have the courage to stand up and point out the simple absurdity of shredding our own constitution, trampling human rights, and sparing no legislation to cover our own asses to fight a threat that is statistically insignificant? The terrorists must just be laughing in their caves right now. Are we such pussies in America that we can't rely on real intelligence and police work to fight terrorists?
This isn't a partisan issue at all, it's the absolute insanity of our times. Obama really sounded like he understood that, then he turns around does the exact opposite. It's not about flip-flopping per se, it's about pretending to know what the biggest, scariest, most obvious problem is in this country, then turning around and pandering to bamboozled middle america huddled in fear thanks to 7 years of fear-mongering by an incompetent who was just trying to muddle through a job that was way wayyy beyond him. If Obama had stuck to his guns (if he even understood the point of what he was saying), he could have used the bully pulpit to bring rationality back to America ala "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." Unfortunately now his rhetoric has become hollow. I still think he may redeem himself as president, but his most powerful tool, his voice, is now castrated.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:3, Insightful)
Man, you got more issues then you can even imagine.
You got a +5 for this?
I'm completely disillusioned with Obama right now but that notwithstanding I still don't think you deserved a +5, insightful for that comment. Admiring a politician means you have "issues"?
So I have "issues" if I admire Nelson Mandela?
Voting for Obama, But Not Enthusiastic (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm voting for Obama. McCain is incredibly awful, and Obama overall looks pretty good - based on his past actions, and his public understanding of some of the solutions we need.
But I'm not that enthusiastic anymore. This FISA surrender is a terrible blow to his credibility in every way. On an essential issue about the Constitution, fighting Bush, keeping his word, leading, privacy, the rule of law. If Obama had done this one right, he'd have proved he can lead us out of the deep mess we're in. Instead, he looks like he's part of the problem - and certainly not part of the solution.
McCain, of course, is also completely in love with the new FISA that spits in the Constitution's eye. And McCain is salivating for so much more of Bush/Cheney's tyrannical powers. And he and his lobbyist advisors are even more clueless than the first round of corporate overlords under Bush/Cheney that they'll waste even more of America as they slice away for their cronies the power and money their offices will give them.
So McCain is unacceptable. I'm enthusiastic about him losing. And voting is not optional: it's an obligation to make a choice, some choice, after learning what the candidates are likely to do once elected. So the choice between McCain and Obama is clearly Obama, who must then get my vote. But I don't have to be happy about it. I don't have to send Obama money. I don't have to sign petitions demanding fair treatment by the media. I don't have to go to Obama rallies or other PR stunts.
If Obama's candidacy were to actually look like it might fail, and McCain might win, then I would send Obama money and do more legwork to get him elected. Because the choice is indeed that important. But I don't have to be happy about it. How can I remain inspired, hopeful, when Obama has raised my expectations, and then smashed them? I've got a sense of proportion, so I know FISA isn't the only issue (though it's important), and that McCain is worse on FISA and everything else. But there were a few hopeful months when Obama was doing FISA different, and now I'm back to the usual disgusted trip to the voting booth.
It's like taking out the trash, instead of going to the video store. Gotta do it, not going to get any dirtier than I must, won't be getting much laughs out of the trip, but I'm holding my nose.
I don't get it (Score:4, Insightful)
It's like somebody lent the guy one of those self help books, but the title is, "How To Be A Dick", and he's turning it into his own personal Bible. Doesn't Obama understand that he gets a huge amount of his support from people who just didn't give a crap about politics before, and who will vanish like smoke if he turns into the same old thing with a pretty face painted on it?
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:1, Insightful)
Are there any American citizens (who understand what FISA is) that actually support it?
Yes. There are plenty of people out there who are of the opinion that "if you're not doing anything wrong, then you shouldn't worry about it."
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:2, Insightful)
Unfortunately, the "right" direction depends on one's point of view.
On this issue, both you and "Corrupt" have a point of view that his direction is "wrong" while others believe it is right.
The problem is that, regardless of what you think, you don't get to determine right and wrong for everyone.
Re:Lesser evil (Score:5, Insightful)
Bush goes on to destroy America's reputation overseas, severely hurts her economy, and is responsible for sending more Americans to their deaths than were killed in 9/11.
Voting for the Lesser Evil certainly works, eh?
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:4, Insightful)
2. International terrorism is primarily a military - NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT - matter. Its roots are in a conflict against governments and people as a whole, not against individuals, thus putting it in the realm of the military.
This I've got to partly disagree with, since GWOT needs a lot of detective work, and also a lot of spy work. The DIA would need to be greatly expanded, poaching in on the CIA's turf, and needing to learn investigative techniques from the FBI.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:5, Insightful)
If he votes against this bill, he loses far more votes in the middle of America (both the literal and political middle) than he's going to lose from the left (and the coasts) by voting FOR the bill. That doesn't excuse his vote for it, and I wish he had voted against it, but giving McCain and the right an easy attack point ("Look! He's soft on the terrerrsts!") probably isn't something he can afford at this point.
Sadly, the best we can hope for is change after he's actually elected president, because being perceived as soft on terror while he's running for president may actually cost him that position.
Re:Bills (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Telecom Immunity Might be a Good Thing (Score:3, Insightful)
So you are saying that companies that do illegal things at the request of the government should be "given a pass", rather than have to make a decision that might be inconvenient?
I would rather not have set the precedent that companies can have laws made just for them giving them immunity for crimes committed in the past.
Re:Look on the bright side (Score:2, Insightful)
Even after following your link to a conservative website I fail to see how what he said is so unreasonable. He is basically saying that we should be like the rest of the world and have our children learn multiple languages early on. Spanish would be fairly useful since there are many people in the US that speak Spanish. This is my problem with conservative personalities these days. They try to take these things out of context to make it seem like what Obama says is horrible. But every time I look at the full transcript of what he says, he comes off extremely reasonable. This link didn't even hide the context. So really, what's the big deal?
The big deal is that their target audience will never bother to read the article, and they know it.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:5, Insightful)
Today's Republicans are not conservative, plain and simple. They're as "big government" as the Dems
Take your pick.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:5, Insightful)
I support the FISA amendment. It's a good compromise. Read the thing before judging.
Obama's own statement [barackobama.com] explaining why he supports it suggests otherwise:
"I wouldn't have drafted the legislation like this, and it does not resolve all of the concerns that we have about President Bush's abuse of executive power. It grants retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that may have violated the law by cooperating with the Bush Administration's program of warrantless wiretapping. This potentially weakens the deterrent effect of the law and removes an important tool for the American people to demand accountability for past abuses."
Indeed. We've now set a precedent for the Executive Branch to violate the law and not be held to account. Nobody is going to be held accountable for past violations of FISA -- not the current administration, not the telecommunications companies, not the intelligence agencies, nobody. Given all that I'd really like to hear Obama explain why future administrations are going to follow the restrictions contained in this FISA bill?
This is a dark day.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:3, Insightful)
What gave you that impression in the first place, because he said so? All he's ever done is spout platitudes tailored to his audience. He preached hope and change and far left ideology to win the primaries, now he's taken a hard right turn to try and win the general election. He's Bill Clinton with far less experience, far less gravitas, and a better tan.
It's not the issue, it's the meta-issue (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that Obama depicts himself as different from all other politicians, that he claimed he would support a filibuster over telecom immunity, and that he voted to cut off filibuster.
He flat out reneged on an important promise, apparently because he wanted to "move to the center", "accept the compromise (sic)", and "appear tough on terrorism".
All he really did was show that he is just another ethically challenged politician.
Re:Bills (Score:5, Insightful)
Then my friends wonder why I am voting third party.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:4, Insightful)
Vote for amendments eliminating the immunity provision (He did)
Vote against the bill, denying law enforcements precious tools (He didn't)
Vote FOR the bill and bide his time (He did)
Make no mistake, Obama has clearly stated he is against granting the telecoms immunity; there's simply nothing yuo can do when OTHER blue dog democrats with cushy incumbent seats wantto retain their fat lobbyist paychecks and vote with their wallets. rather than their constituent's values, defeating perfectly logical amendments.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't confuse the right with Republicans. They aren't conservatives and haven't been for a long time now.
Re:Bills (Score:2, Insightful)
FISA has worked fine for 22 years
really? how the hell do YOU know? if you knew, you would be gagged and prevented from posting real info about it.
this is the age of the 'gag order'...
secret police and secret non-public courts. checks and balances? nah, its such a QUAINT old concept.
seriously, you and I will never know if this FISA stuff really did any good or not. my guess is that it was NEVER any good but just a power grab.
its getting closer and closer to the time when we need to take to the streets with pitchforks....
This isn't a "progressive" issue. (Score:4, Insightful)
Frankly, I don't really don't care that much that the telecoms get off the hook in this instance. Yes, it's a bad precedent, but it's far from the biggest problem here. It's part of a pattern that is far more worrying.
The biggest problem is that the FISA amendments allow the government to destroy surveillance records, or not to keep them in the first place. What possible legitimate purpose could that serve? The telecom thing isn't there to protect the telecoms, it's there to make it impossible for private individuals to determine the scope of the government's intrusion via discovery. Likewise, the amendment prevents states from investigating crimes committed against their citizens.
Clearly, the biggest practical effect of these amendments is to allow the executive branch to engage in criminal activities and obstruct any effort, private or public, to determine the extent of those crimes.
This is not a "liberal" issue. Concealing and destroying evidence shows this is not an argument about the extent to which the President is bound by one law or another, but whether he can exceed his constitutional powers with impunity and then escape accountability. This transcends liberal/conservative divide over the President's "inherent powers", because whatever you think the scope of the President's powers should be, this allows him to exceed that scope.
Re:The Honeymoon Is Over (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:3, Insightful)
republicans are democrats that 'got religion'.
nothing more.
I'll still always oppose the modern republicans. but I'm not so much a fan of the dems, right now, either.
come november, I'm staying home. I'm following george carlin's advice...
Re:A multi-cave (Score:4, Insightful)
That's exactly why I will hold my nose and vote for McCain despite my dislike of him. Not only is Obama woefully inexperienced but his plans for spending will bankrupt us quickly AND he will appoint Justices who pay more attention to International law than to the letter and intent of the Constitution.
Don't like the Constitution? Great, then get it amended. That's the process, not haveing a bunch of lawyers in black robes twist it around.
Re:Telecom Immunity Might be a Good Thing (Score:4, Insightful)
What would have been the point of suing the telecom companies?
The point was to find out exactly what the hell happened through the discovery process. This wasn't some thinly veiled attempt to get money out of Verizon and AT&T. This was an attempt to find out what the extent of this illegal wiretapping program was and to hold those who violated the law (within the administration and within Verizon/AT&T) accountable.
The lawyers would have made most of the money anyway
Yes, those money-grubbing lawyers at the EFF and ACLU only took this on so they could make legal fees....
What if it comes out the "wrong" way? What if the courts decide the President has that authority?
Yes, if only Dred Scott had been content to remain a slave and hadn't sued to change it... then we wouldn't have had the horrible Dred Scott decision on the books.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is why the framers of the constitution left declaration of war to the House of Representatives. And approving treaties to the Senate.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:5, Insightful)
Careful there. When you say FISA, I think you mean "the emasculation of FISA". Until yesterday FISA was supposed to provide judicial oversight of all domestic surveillance. This is what most Americans want. After yesterday, I don't know what FISA's supposed to do anymore.
I admire certain politicians (Score:5, Insightful)
There are some admirable politicians out there. The fact that you are unwilling to look at their individual behavior, and simply tar them all with the same brush, marks you as intellectually lazy and fundamentally dishonest.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:5, Insightful)
Funny, that.
Most small-scale human-committed crimes occur either spontaneously or out of necessity. Killing a cheating spouse, stealing to make a living, downloading Chinese Democracy, that sort of thing. Harsh punishments thus do not act as a deterrent to such crime. Simple as that. People either do not consider the consequences before hand, or decide the benefits outweigh the risks.
Now here, with the telecoms, we have a situation where harsh punishment would very much deter similar future cooperation with illegal requests from the government... And yet, as far as I can tell, that seems like exactly the reason our congresscritters don't want to punish them? Because it might make them actually obey (or at least think twice about) the law next time a black helecopter lands in the CEO's back yard?
Sick.
I have to agree with the FP on this one... I weakly supported Obama as not too offensive to most of my views. I feel rather strongly on this issue, however, and his vote in this situations has reduced him from "passable" to the all-too-common "lesser of two evils".
My letter to Obama, sent last night (Score:3, Insightful)
Senator Obama:
When I first heard you speak, I was moved, literally. Very few people who speak give me chills, and you were one of them. Later, I was excited to attend your speech at Joe Luis Arena when you came to Detroit--not only excited to hear you speak in person, but excited to be a part of something big and meaningful. Though I am still young and have only been following politics for the past eight awful years, I felt honored to be able to finally support a politician who seemed different from any other.
I'm now several months removed from the first time I heard you speak and a few weeks past the night I attended your speech in Detroit. I'm writing to you five days after Independence Day, and only a few hours after you voted for the FISA Amendment Act. Simply put, I feel cheated, and I know I'm only one of tens of thousands of supporters who feel the same way. It's one thing for the majority of the Senate to pass this legislation, it's another for someone who you thought was different to vote for it. That's the biggest slap in the face.
In light of your vote, I'm no longer excited about your stake for presidency. I thought that we might be on a path to something new, something better. But your vote tells a different story, and that's not change that I can believe in. It's simply more of the same.
Thank you for your time.
We have a two party system. (Score:2, Insightful)
The answer is right there (Score:5, Insightful)
Vote against the bill, denying law enforcements precious tools (He didn't)
Why not vote against it?
Why not punish the people who draft bills that are too broad in scope or have insane riders on them and let them know that if they want laws passed they should learn to be concise? Or how about actually standing up for their constituents?
What the hell is wrong with the government working for the people it's supposed to represent for a freaking change?
Obama has clearly stated he is against granting the telecoms immunity; there's simply nothing yuo can do when OTHER blue dog democrats with cushy incumbent seats wantto retain their fat lobbyist paychecks and vote with their wallets.
WRONG. Yes there is. How about voting your conscience rather than rolling over and taking it up the tailpipe? This is supposed to be a leadership value?
Please don't think I'm a Republican when I type this, but if this is Obama's idea of "Change" - well, it looks like the same old same old to me.
At this point it would not matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
Kind of like voting for a war ... and then opposing it.
The time for thoughtful consideration is BEFORE the damage is done.
Words are cheap.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:5, Insightful)
And that's exactly my point. Politicians are striving for "looks" rather than the best interest of our country on both sides. In the primaries, when looks were not influenced by the political right as much, Jeremiah Wright suddenly became a problem for Obama. But Barack didn't do the best for his "looks" at first, he went to great lengths to not personally attack Wright. Anybody remember his speech? That speech inspired me a great deal; in fact a little of that hope caught on with me.
But now I see that Obama is not going to hold press conferences on important matters and deliver well written speeches. His biggest group of supporters did not want him to sign this bill yet it seems that his campaign put more thought into a crazy mega church preacher than our government spying on us. To them, it was a simple logical decision. This can be soft on terror, so don't do it. Yes Obama made that small attempt at amending the bill, but there was no big speech, there was no hope. It was literally "I'll try, but don't expect much. Sorry guys."
Flip-of-all-Flops on Iraq Coming (Score:2, Insightful)
"After consulting with the generals..."
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:5, Insightful)
We were dealing with a weird red-tape issue
You call it red tape. I call it my constitutionally protected rights. And that's why most people here will disagree with you.
If you cannot even lead your party ... (Score:3, Insightful)
how are you going to lead the country?
Leaders do NOT compromise their core values.
Anything that they DO compromise on is NOT a core value for them.
Obama "compromised" on the 4th Amendment, his previous statements and telecom immunity with that vote.
Why? Did he suddenly start believing the opposite of what he believed before?
No, he did it because he thought that preemptive capitulation would make him look "strong".
He cravenly caved to a lame duck President.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:3, Insightful)
You mean like since Lincoln? Oh wait, that was the "birth" of the current Republican party (not to be confused with Jeffersonian Republican's, who actually where for small government)
Lincoln Republican's are just left over Whigs, who were left over Federalists, and we all know what they stood for, just read a little about Mr. Hamilton's beliefs, if you aren't familiar.
At best, current Republican's are just for smaller government in comparison to nanny-state Democrats, which isn't saying much.
My letter to Obama (Score:2, Insightful)
Your message says change yet your vote on the FISA bill says more of the same corruption. You could have rallied democrats to not let the bill through with the retroactive immunity, yet you have actively helped Mr. Bush and his cronies cover up their illegal activities. Anybody else would have gone to jail for what these criminals have done yet apparently all men are not created equal in the eyes of Barack Obama. You have actively betrayed the privacy and trust of the American people.
So what am I really supposed to believe you were trying to accomplish by voting this way? Do you really believe that these companies and the administration are above the law and deserve to be allowed to do whatever they want? Or are you just doing whatever you think will get you the most votes in the election which ironically happens to be a polar opposite from your stated message (at least the one on the front page of your website). Either and both of these reasons are enough for you to have lost my vote. I am not sure what is worse, the hypocrisy of Mr. Bush stressing the importance of the FISA bill for national security and then vetoing anything that doesn't cover himself and his cronies, or your recent complete betrayal.
Before today, I absolutely endorsed and loved your message of change. I thought finally, we will have a president who might actually do something about global warming. What an amazing thing it would have been to have a president who actually wanted to fix the country. It is sad that once again this remains only a dream.
"To be clear: Barack will support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies." -Obama spokesman Bill Burton, oct 07
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:4, Insightful)
I was under the impression that Obama is not perfect but that he would always admit if he was wrong and quickly qork towards the right direction. I think this will be a big test of him in my eyes. If he never turns around on this issue it means he is clearly as stubborn as the rest. If he can admit he is wrong then hes better than someone who started out agreeing with me more.
How do you know that they won't change their views back once elected?
That's the dilemma that politicians face. If they change their views, they are "flip-floppers". If they don't, they are stubborn.
Ignore for a second how you feel about any particular politician and consider this example. Obama is being hammered for changing his views. Bush is hammered for NOT changing his views. They are damned if the do and damned if they don't.
Re:Bills (Score:4, Insightful)
That would be an ideal country to live in. The greatest politicians in history have been the ones that did not do anything. No bad ideas made reality, no debts paid back to campaign financiers, no added restrictions on individual rights. It's the ones that think they need to change the world - acting on their definition of "the Greater Good" - that you must worry about.
Note: This is not flamebait. It is the truth.
Re:I admire certain politicians (Score:3, Insightful)
Haven't met one yet.
Re:It's not the issue, it's the meta-issue (Score:3, Insightful)
I always believed, regardless of the hype, that he was "just another ethically challenged politician."
I guess that is why I am not surprised by this.
Whenever you hear something about Obama (Score:2, Insightful)
Please go look at
http://my.barackobama.com/ [barackobama.com]
It's Obama's "Snopes".
---
Obama is a liberal
Obama will raise taxes on those making $225k & up (and I think $90k & Up)
That means a lot of powerful wealthy people are going to be doing a lot of despicable things to try and keep him from being elected. For them the Bush years have been great. The top 1% has gotten tax cuts so great that the top 5% shows tax cuts even tho taxes are up on the top 2-5%.
There are a lot of VALID reasons to oppose Obama because he IS a liberal. Or you can oppose him because he is socially liberal.
McCain is a conservative. I would have supported him but I saw a very clear moment in 2005 when he said, "I want to be president and I'm going to play ball with the wealthy and the corporations and the military industrial complex". He flipped on several key issues at that point and became Bush-3. I don't want to wait around 2-3 years until he reverts to being the McCain that I supported while the country goes deeper into debt and gets into a couple more pointless wars.
There are a lot of VALID reasons to oppose Obama because he IS a neo-con republican now. Or you can oppose him because is socially conservative.
Both candidates are going to be screwed as first term presidents by a vicious bear market akin to 1968-1980.
But do the decency to go to each man's site and read up on them. Clinton & Their ilk will create a lot of lies about McCain. Whisper campaigns. Play up how he divorced his first wife. Etc. Karl Rove and his ilk will create a lot of lies about Obama. Play up "Hussein". Plant whisper campaigns that he is a muslim. Etc.
If you really are a christian, shouldn't you be moral and ethical and really find out the truth about Obama rather than listening to gossip and lies? This is a man tha said he got down on his knees and accepted Jesus Christ when he was doing community work almost 30 years ago. He's been going to christian churches for all that time. And suddenly he's islamic? Bullshit.
I don't believe my self but I think it is more the dogma of christianity than the good works. Some of the dogma is silly but the basic meme is kind and moral.
Anyway... CHECK THE FACTS on BOTH men. Both are decent intelligent men. I'm going to vote Obama because he inspires me. He makes me believe in America as the shining beacon on the hill- that country where anyone can be president. The country that is tough as nails and a scrappy fighter but basically decent, honest, and fair.
I think I see how they felt about Kennedy. I sure hope Obama is elected and doesn't screw it all up with some stupid tragic flaw.
I'm in the minority (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:5, Insightful)
"broad military issues should be left with strong leadership, not with bureaucracy"
The founding fathers said congress declares war, not the president
"International terrorism is primarily a military - NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT - matter"
As another has said, this requires investigation, not a military strong point
"We don't need warrants against spies"
funny, the Constitution says nothing about exceptions for spies
"Communications of internationals, like it or not, are NOT covered by the US Constitution"
sure it is, where it says we are not to be survailed without a warrent.
Why do you hate Americas freedoms?
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, how about "When in the course of human events it becomes necessary..."?
How about: Show Moral Backbone? (Score:5, Insightful)
He voted FOR the bill. Nevermind he said that he would never vote for a bill that granted immunity. Nevermind that this bill is the last chance at exposing Bush's misdoings regarding the wiretapping scandal. The key is that it undermines individual protections; and he voted for it in favor of executive branch power.
He did NOT need to vote for the bill. The idea that law enforcement is denied 'precious' tools has been debunked time and again. All it denies is oversight - which is a terrible, terrible idea. The original FISA bill allowed for wiretaps with warrants, warrants that are easy to get, even after the fact. Instead, he has opted for blind trust in the executive branch.
There is always something you can do; he didn't need to vote for the bill. It would have been an easy thing to do - the bill still would have gone through. Make no bones about it; he's shifting to the middle in hopes of picking up swing voters who swallow the purple punch and believe the current Administration's rhetoric about how this is 'vital' to national security, or we're all DOOMED. It's overblown propaganda, and people need to recognize that.
Finally, let me note that he's not 'biding his time'. There is nothing he can do now; the bill has to be repealed by Congress or the Supreme Court. It's not like once he's President he can wave a magic wand and make the bad thing go away. More to the point, even if he could, voting for the bill does nothing to increase his ability to do so. It's entirely gutless move.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, I see, so it's all those other Democrat's faults. Obama is just selling out on liberty as a reasonable measure.
Exactly (Score:2, Insightful)
And that's the reason the Republican Media Machine put him as the frontrunner. After 8 years of hell, a Republican president still seems like a viable option.
A Supporter No More (Score:2, Insightful)
Senator Obama,
Today you voted to destroy the Constitution. You betrayed millions of supporters like myself when you voted away the 4th Amendment today. No amount of spin on your part is going to change the fact that you and your fellow Congressmen stabbed every American in the back today. You and the rest of your compatriots in the Senate and House have lost all claims to legitimacy. You have betrayed your oath of office, the Constitution and the People.
I cannot begin to express how violated, molested and utterly betrayed I feel by what you have done. I feel duped, suckered, hoodwinked and bamboozled. I feel like I have been robbed, raped and left bleeding in a dark alley.
Goodbye, Senator. This is a deal breaker. I will not be voting in November. You have destroyed what little hope I had left for my country. I now know without doubt that absolutely nobody in my government can be trusted. You and all your fellow traitors inside the beltway can go to hell. There is no excuse for what you have done and no possible explanation or apology will right this wrong.
In closing, Senator, I leave you with a reminder and fair warning from our founders.
I feel no shame for having taken a chance that you might be different, Senator. However, knowing now that you have taken ranks with the most vile among us, to remain in your camp would bring enduring shame and dishonor upon my soul.
Goodbye and God Save the People!
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:5, Insightful)
Claiming some morally superior position doesn't mean a damn
thing if you aren't willing to actually act on it.
Obama should have been willing to start the fillibuster himself.
He's supposed to be a leader rather than a follower. This is
true of him just in his role of Senator. Nevermind asking to
be President.
At the very least he should have voted no on the bill and made
a nice speech on CSPAN.
He was given an opportunity to be counted amongst those that are
as he describe himself "not merely a part of the status quo" and
he failed.
Now his "new and progressive and different" rhetoric has been completely "busted".
Re:If you cannot even lead your party ... (Score:3, Insightful)
how are you going to lead the country?
Leaders do NOT compromise their core values.
Anything that they DO compromise on is NOT a core value for them.
I'm not an Obama guy - His lack of experience scares me and his "message", although well spoken and charismatic, seems empty. I was a big backer of McCain until a few years back when he stopped fighting Bush and started morphing into him...
That said, I don't want a leader in the White House. We have one now and he's lead us into a complete quagmire. I want a representative.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:1, Insightful)
International terrorism is primarily a military - NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT - matter.
This attitude has always bothered me. When some crazy blew up the federal building in Oklahoma City it was handled as a criminal matter. That was the right thing. When Big Lou terrorizes the local dry cleaner into paying protection money, that is a criminal matter.
When a group of North Dakota insurgents sneak across the border and release a horde of wild beavers to threaten Canadian lumber jacks... that's not a reason to call in the bombers. That's still a simple matter of law enforcement (we used to call them peace officers).
When a motorcycle gang from San Diego busts up a bar in Tijuana, that is a crime. It might also be an act of terrorism if they are trying to send a message in a turf war, or what have you. But it isn't a military matter. It is a criminal matter.
Crime across an international border is still crime. Unless it is committed by agents of the government (including those sponsored, protected, or tolerated by the government) it is not an act of war. The response should adhere to the rules of law, not the rules of war.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:4, Insightful)
The military is perfectly capable of investigation (CIA is semi-military, mind you, and cooperates highly with military - they're not strictly under a civilian umbrella).
I believe that, even during times of the founders, spies were often..dealt with. "Rights" have always been - in many countries - respected as long as the rules of civilized society were dealt with. Spies operate outside of those rules. Terrorists even moreso (Geneva conventions don't protect combatants not wearing uniforms, I believe). Terrorists abrogate rights by deliberately targeting known civilian populations - a position typically held in the Western world, and I believe upheld in Geneva.
Yeah, I thouroughly despise my right to free speech, press, religion, bear arms, voting. Hate 'em all.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:3, Insightful)
Bullsh*t.
This would have been the perfect opportunity for Obama to use
those keen public speaking skills and strike at the heart of
a matter very fundemental to notions of American Liberty and
fidelity. He could EASILY wrap the whole thing up in the sort
of rhetoric that a Kansas wheat farmer would just eat up.
He can merely choose to pander to all of our positive myths
about ourselves and our country rather than mongering fear.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:5, Insightful)
He's not going to be the leader of the people. He's going to be the executive authority of the Union. He's going to lead the troops. But he has no direct authority over the law-abiding citizens of the country.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm curious to know how you could believe that a man going back on his word -- breaking an agreement -- is somehow justifiable in anybody's moral code.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:1, Insightful)
Republicans want corporatism.
I'll give you that there are a lot of religious kooks in the Republican party, but how does that explain a democrat like McCain getting their nomination? The religious right isn't running the Republican party, but the kooks on the far left are running the Democrat party. John F. Kennedy would not recognize the Democrat party of today.
On point 2 above, idealistically, Republicans want people to be self-governed and provide small assistance to get people on their feet, while Democrats want to help those who can't self-govern and to take care of them indefinitely. Neither are inherently bad.
Re:The answer is right there (Score:4, Insightful)
Why not vote against it?
You need to weigh more than just telecom immunity when considering this vote. I'm not saying he made the right vote (it really is a tough call in my opinion), but reducing the bill solely to telecom immunity is to greatly misunderstand things.
It seems to me one of the great problems about elections is that extremely complex issues get boiled down to ten words. This is a perfect example of that.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:4, Insightful)
He's not just a senator anymore -- he's a de facto party leader, and gets as much press as he wants. People will pour over his every word. He could and should have used this opportunity to take a stand against widespread civil rights violations. Most democrats would have followed him, too -- nobody's gonna retract their endorsements at this point.
Instead he made a nominal fuss, then caved to the big money. Typical.
(Precious tools? Please...)
A smart guy told me this... (Score:3, Insightful)
That said, I'm a locally active DFL'er - not because I agree with everything that the DFL stands for, but so I can try and make changes to the DFL at the low level, like Instant Runoff Voting, and other platforms that will hopefully trickle up. (Incidentally making other parties more viable)
An excerpt from my letter to Obama (sent several weeks before this vote):
My wife and I are delegates for the first district in MN. We got involved for the first time because we believed that Barack would kick corporate interests out of Washington, that he would help restore the Constitution, and that we would have someone in office who not only held similar beliefs, but would not compromise them. I've combated many false and slanderous emails, reached out to many independent voters who were 'on the fence', and was the first in my town to sport a Obama sign in my yard, sticker on my car, and button on my guitar strap - but I'm sad to say that I'm becoming disillusioned.
I need Barack to stop compromising. I need him to hold the current (and future) administration accountable, I need him to return government to the people, rather than corporate interests. I need him to keep to the ideals which made me want to actively support a candidate for the first time in 20 years. I will do my best to get him elected, but only if I can believe in him.
The response I got was a plea for money. Thanks, but I'll spend my dollars on local candidates in MN, who I can trust not to tell me one thing, and do another.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:5, Insightful)
Obama has clearly stated he is against granting the telecoms immunity
He voted for the bill, ergo he favors telecom immunity. Case closed.
As someone once said, you can judge a man more accurately by his actions than his words.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:4, Insightful)
Any candidate who bases his vote entirely on what he can "afford" is a candidate who will not be getting my vote in November.
I voted for Obama in the primary. I was planning to vote for him in November. Not anymore! As far as I'm concerned they can both go screw themselves.
Re:Lesser evil (Score:2, Insightful)
Oh and that peace prize was a real accomplishment eh? while the glaciers grow all over the planet chicken little runs around screamin the world is melting. Then a bunch of doofuses come to the conclusion that the "MORON" screaming at the top of his lungs about the boogie man has done something to benefit world peace? Brilliant! So from this we can conclude what exactly the nobel committee is composed of morons too?
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:3, Insightful)
I personally don't believe single-issue voters have ever, or WILL ever decide an election and therefore Obama has made a shrewd political move insuring his electability. The Republican propaganda machine THRIVES on perceived fears of terrorism; giving them prime ammunition like "Obama voted against finding terrists!",while the bill is GUARANTEED TO PASS ANYWAY, achieves nothing.
Idealist never achieve anything; the only vote that has lasting effect is from the rooftop. The restis all decided by the leaders-that-be, and solely themselves.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:3, Insightful)
one Amerika, one party...comrade (Score:3, Insightful)
There's only one party...The RepublicCrats, They pretend to disagree on minor distractions, but nobody wants real change. After all, a politicians first job is to get reelected. The current system put them in power, and they are not about to change it.
I used to say "If you want real change, vote for Chuck Baldwin with the Constitution party." Then the black box voting machines stopped counting our votes.
Now I say "If you want real change, learn to shoot."
Andy
Re:It's not the issue, it's the meta-issue (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's say you are the president and have been secretly, for years, illegally authorizing massive searches without warrants. This is blatantly unconstitutional.
So your supporters introduce a bill to retroactively legalize this and to pardon all those who helped you.
This stinks to high heaven, and there are lots of objections.
So you say "pretty please with sugar and cream on top".
Your opponents say "Oh, he compromised with us, let's pass this compromise."
And everyone is sic (sic) at the thought.
Does that answer your question?
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:2, Insightful)
He certainly won't be getting my vote. Neither will McCain, though. I refuse to pick between the lesser of two evils. That's why I'm voting Cthulu [cthulhu.org].
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:4, Insightful)
The time when it is _most_ important to follow the law is when the Government is telling you to break it. If the government is breaking the law, then who will stand up for the law if not the citizens?
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:5, Insightful)
The exclusivity provision makes it clear to any president or telecommunications company that no law supersedes the authority of the FISA court.
FISA's authority here was already exclusive, as was recently reiterated in a Federal court by a Bush Sr. appointed judge. Obama voted for a meaningless provision. "I'll help you get away with doing something illegal this time, if you'll let me make it double-illegal for next time!" is not a compromise, it is idiocy. The only remaining question is whether Obama was dumb enough to believe this argument himself or just dishonest enough to try to trick his supporters into believing it.
My sympathies for those of you voting in swing states. Helping choose between John "I'd like to shred the Fourth Amendment" McCain and Barack "I'll shred the Fourth Amendment, but I'll feel sad about it" Obama is probably still important, but it can't be very fun.
Re:If you cannot even lead your party ... (Score:2, Insightful)
No, by definition, the President's job is to *execute* the wishes of Congress, who are our *representatives*.
The problem is that Congress has ceased to represent us (and now represents only special interests and corporate lobbyists) and has ceded nearly all of its power to the President, creating a de facto near-dictatorship.
Re:Bills (Score:3, Insightful)
Nothing would ever get done if everyone in Congress refused to vote for anything that contained a provision that they didn't agree with.
You say that like it's a bad thing. If Congress can't get around to passing any laws, they can't make our lives more complicated. Sounds like a winning plan to me.
Dissappointing, but republicans still far worse (Score:2, Insightful)
It does make me mad that Obama would support this legislation and it undermines the principles he should be standing for. I do vote democrat but it is bothering that they seem to be eroding away their own support base by support republican ideas rather than differentiating themselves and actually supporting a free democratic society not trying to turn it into a police state. Pelosis idea of censoring the net was also very dissappointing. Of course the republicans are worse, but it is upsetting because we need a party to oppose the agenda which seems to be aimed at turning us into a police state. I would still vote democrat just to help keep Mccain out of power which would be worse than obama. Obama has made committments on the net neutrality which mccain has not done. Voting for mccain, a third party or not voting will do far more damage than voting for Obama, that i am sure of, so I will vote for obama and democrats which on the whole are better than the republicans by far. To not do so would be suicidal, i cant stand the idea of 4 more years of neocon war faring, slash education and social well being, damage the environment, etc, etc.
Another thing is, if people are fed up with the two party duopoly, maybe its time to look at a porportional or preferential election system, like Instant runoff voting so you can rank your candidates in order of preference and dont end up throwing away your vote on candidates who cant win and allowing another Bush to get elected.
There is little doubt that obama is a lot better than mccain, even though he is not perfect. Mccain would be a total disaster at least there are some positive things about Obama. Voting for mccain would be suicide, and pretty much we can be assured with our first past the post dual party system it will be mccain or obama, obama is far better. Any liberal who votes for a third party is just going to help mccain win and we will end up in a far worse situation than with obama. So we need to look at who is overall best, just because obama isnt perfect we should not help get mccain elected which any liberal who goes third party or does not vote will do.
Instant runoff would give people the confidence to vote in a third party but have their vote fall back to the democrats if the third party cant win. It would actually cause third parties to become more prominent and encourage people to vote on principle rather than popularity. But we dont have that system yet so we do need to vote for obama so we end up with someone who is overall better than mccain. This goes for all the congressional races as well, where democrats need a lot of help to win and do have an overall better platform, although not perfect.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually Kucinich made it clear that he was saying the same thing you did - it was an Object, Flying, Unidentified. He was then asked "What do you think it was?" and replied "I have no idea."
However, he has an in-law who's a fairly successful (in the sense of 'profit-making') astrologer, and she whomped it up horribly, going on about how he felt a great sense of peace and all the usual woo-woo.
Guess which version the media keeps harping on?
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:5, Insightful)
Nelson Mandela blew up government buildings under direction of the Soviet-backed African National Congress. Whether he did it for the right reason or not, is not the point. The point is that he used violence to affect political outcome. That makes him a terrorist.
Obama is not, as far as I can tell, a terrorist. He's just a politician - and that means saying and doing whatever is convenient at the time. It's the same now as it always was.
History has provided, from time to time, true statesmen - but they are are far and few between - and their status is usually guaranteed or denied to to political considerations at the time.
David Ben Gurion was a terrorist who blew up buildings and assassinated British soldiers and officers, yet he's the hero of Israeli independence. Michael Collins was the same for Ireland, and you have your Nelson Mandela.
Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist who blew up a government building hoping to start a revolution. Instead of an honourary doctorate and a country, he got executed. Everyone likes to admire a winner; only "fanatics" and "extremists" admire losers who use the same tactics.
Either way, trying to compare Obama to Nelson Mandela has got to be some sort of corollary to Godwin.
Re:The answer is right there (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. If you vote against it, your opponents will pick out all the sensible provisions of the bill that no sane person could disgree with (I'm not saying there are any in this case, haven't read the bill) and plaster the airwaves with attack ads about how you opposed all of these obviously good provisions. If you vote for it, you will be passing into the reprehensible provisions of the bill that have come along for the ride.
That's WHY the bill is written to be overly broad in the first place. It's called politics and it sucks. Doesn't help to blame "the author" either, because the damn things are authored by committee -- amend it to add this, amend it to reword that, etc.
This might be redundant... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:3, Insightful)
You've never seen something you couldn't identify? Whatever.
Of course I have.
The difference is I just didn't assume that just because I didn't know what it was that it must be intelligent life from another planet.
I have no idea what Kusinich saw, or thought he saw, but I'm pretty damn sure that he isn't one of countless people who've all seen real UFOs but have all been so spectacularly unlucky as to come away with no evidence.
That being said it's a mostly harmless belief, but it is almost certainly an unsound belief and its very existence suggests his decision making process isn't quite sound.
I used to be willing to believe that religion was also a mostly harmless belief, then I started to see how that belief caused some people to make very unsound decisions. Just look at Bush to see how bad that unsound basis can be in practice.
I don't know enough about Kusinich to know if he's one of "the best of the worst", but I consider the belief in UFOs to indicate a real vulnerability in his decision making process.
Because.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Why not vote against it?
Because the bill passed, while not a good bill, is STILL better than the present law. Obama, and others, tried to strip the immunity. It didn't work. So given the choice between maintaining the status quo (worse) or accepting that the telecom companies have bought out a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, Obama voted for the bill so AT LEAST executive power is restrained a bit more.
Obama chose 'something' over 'nothing'.
The immunity is also not absolute, and if/when Obama is President, hopefully the issue can be revisited when a Bush veto doesn't have to be overcome (which is a mere 6 months from now).
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:3, Insightful)
But the President must call the shots *with respect to the law*. The President doesn't have carte blanche to ignore the law just because he's the Commander-in-Chief of the *military*. Some people seem to be confused and think that "Commander-in-Chief" applies to citizens. It does not.
Re:The answer is right there (Score:5, Insightful)
There are two sides of national politics, principles and compromise.
Senator Obama reversed himself on retroactive immunity because he felt the FISA bill was a good compromise.
I can't site it but I remember him being quoted as saying there were adequate protections
in the bill and that overcame his objections to retroactive immunity.
Where this is a change from the past seven years is this:
Our current president is known for is never changing his mind no matter what happens. People used
to think that was a virtue, but look what has happened. Bush will say over and over that he will
veto a law that contains "X" where X is some principle he is against. As a result, there has been
no movement on some issues.
Obama is showing that he is the opposite. He will compromise with people he disagrees with and
change his mind. Some may see that as expedient. I see that as a good alternative to having
two groups stand on opposite sides of the room never reaching an agreement while big problems
go readdressed.
As a lifelong Democrat with left of center views, I struggle between being pissed off at
Democrat Senators (like Dianne Feinstein) who often vote against my own opinion and also
wanting all these legislators to work together and make some headway against the growinglist of problems our country faces.
Sure I'm upset at retroactive immunity. But I can't vote on only one issue because I think
that the environment, the deficit, the falling dollar, rising oil prices, immigration,
health care are also important.
The struggle for me is that on the one hand, I want Democrats and Republicans to work together
to solve some of these problems. On the other hand, I'm not always happy with the result.
If a politician signals that they are never going to change their vote, then no one bothers
to change the bill in order to get your vote.
If you can find someone who sticks to their principles and never changes their mind, go ahead
and vote for them. But that sounds like what we have had for the last 7+ years -- same old same old.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:3, Insightful)
but giving McCain and the right an easy attack point ("Look! He's soft on the terrerrsts!") probably isn't something he can afford at this point.
Have you ever seen Obama speak? Surely he can afford the opportunity to remind the public there are limits to what liberties we sacrifice in the name of security. It rather seems his actions are reflective of his position.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:3, Insightful)
Obama favoured the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange? Wholesale nationalisation of all industries? A centrally planned economy?
Or did he just favour adding a few half-arsed social safeguards to make corporate capitalism slightly more bearable for the workers?
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:1, Insightful)
It's completely justifiable in mine, but then I guess I'm strange in that I value personal integrity over immature schoolyard codes of conduct. I would much rather break an agreement than do something I decided was wrong.
I don't care if I wrote a contract, shared a beer, or pinky swore with my best friend to always help them. If they ask me to help them bury a body or rob a bank, they're on their own. I don't care that I gave them my word. I'm going to do what is right. Now, that might annoy people who need promises to make themselves feel better. I guess they can just deal. I'd rather have someone I can count on to do the right thing rather than someone who will do whatever I make them promise to do.
I'm deeply troubled by the number of people who have said they would prefer a president who refused to change his mind even when he found out he was wrong to a president who was willing to change his mind. That's great. They admire the one who's wrong and refuses to fix it. But at least you can count on him/her to keep on being wrong and keep refusing to fix it.
Re:The answer is right there (Score:5, Insightful)
What's wrong with FISA? (Score:5, Insightful)
What is wrong with FISA that the current bill fixes?
This bill changes nothing except now what the Bush administration did illegally, it can now do legally. And the fact that they were doing it illegally before is also, actually, legal.
The only thing this does is confirm that the CIA/NSA can do whatever they want regardless of the law and if they get caught, Congress will bail them out.
Re:Because.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Because the bill passed, while not a good bill, is STILL better than the present law.
How? As far as I can tell, the new FISA bill the same or worse in every respect. It loosens restrictions on government spying, creates loopholes that could be used to have unconstitutionally broad spying programs, reduces judicial oversight, and, finally, adds immunity for past wrongs (effectively turning this into an ex post facto law).
Tell me again, how is this law an improvement?
Wake up people. (Score:5, Insightful)
This is just ONE of MANY examples proving that Obama is a total stuffed shirt who only says the right things, and almost never does them.
If he was a REAL candidate of hope and change, who actually gave even a passing nod to the constitution, or even any of the tenets set forth by Franklin, Jefferson, and the other geniuses who set up our system, he would not be a "realistic" candidate, and he certainly wouldn't get so much air time on corporate TV.
All you Obama fans had a real guy representing the stuff you really wanted. His name was Kucinich, and his wife is totally hot.
Oh, and he's the one in congress delivering impeachment papers day after day, too.....
But what he doesn't have is CNN, FOX, ABC, NBC, CBS, MSN, and Rolling Stone completely sucking his cock. There's a reason for that, too. He's the real deal, unlike stuffed shirt Obama, who talks the talk and then sells the constitution out for corporate and political power every time. Just like the FISA thing.
You people claiming it's a simple mistake that he will work to correct are idiots. The FISA thing is an OBVIOUS choice, actually talked about DIRECTLY in the fourth amendment.
You people claiming Republican's are far worse are also idiots. They are exactly the same. They just don't even SAY the right things. Well, they say the right things for old people and people who talk to invisible men in the sky, but then they vote pro corporate and pro fascist just like the Democrats. There is NO difference. The party lines are both the same: The bottom line for Viacomm, AOL/Time Warner, Bertelsmann, News Corp, and Disney.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:3, Insightful)
You have the right to your opinion and considering what happened I can't say that I blame you for seeing him this way but consider this. He KNEW 20,000+ supporters HATED the idea of him voting yes on this. Additionally those supporters are his strong base that have been a hallmark of his campaign compared to, not just to other candidates this year, but in the past several elections. He changed his mind (flip-floping that McCain is all ready calling him out on) on an issue that his core wanted him to keep. If he was looking for votes with this move any idiot could tell you it was a bad plan. People are clamming he is pulling this because he is "just as bad as Bush/McCain". If that was true he would not have worked so hard to get the immunity in out of there in the first place. So logically I can't see any reason for him to have done this other then he thought it was the best course of action for us. If he is right or not is different story.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:5, Insightful)
Once elected, Obama can enact REAL change and retroactively remove the immunity if it is even worth it.
Wow, it's as if the Republicans' fantasies about unlimited executive power and the Democrats' fantasies about Obama's goodness had a baby. A baby with fetal alcohol syndrome, who will never even be able to comprehend the SchoolHouse Rock version of "how a bill becomes a law"...
therefore Obama has made a shrewd political move insuring his electability.
Absolutely. He was against telecom immunity before he voted for it. There's no way the Republicans will ever be able to use that against him. He's nearly as electable as John Kerry, now!
The Republican propaganda machine THRIVES on perceived fears of terrorism; giving them prime ammunition like "Obama voted against finding terrists!"
That could have been awful. Instead they're now stuck with second-rate ammunition like "Obama voted against the Protect America Act for finding terrists, but caved after we courageous Republicans showed him who was boss!"
Idealist never achieve anything
The Bill of Rights looks pretty idealistic. Just because it'll be completely dismantled in the end doesn't mean it wasn't a very good achievement for a very long time.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:5, Insightful)
``It's not like the requirements to get a FISA warrant (someone with a pulse to stand in front of a secret court and say "gimme" at some point not necessarily before you started spying) were exactly onerous.''
And that's the problem we have gotten into since 9/11. We _had_ laws and mechanisms in place to get the Bad Guys. Now, we have let governments grant themselves the power and the legitimacy to go after everyone.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:3, Insightful)
Basically it seems that to him it was more important to prevent future abuse then to vote for the power to punish past abuse.
Which would make sense, if this bill actually had measures to prevent future abuse. However, all this bill does is loosen restrictions and increase loopholes, making it more difficult to find and prosecute future abuse.
Re:How about: Show Moral Backbone? (Score:5, Insightful)
He voted FOR the bill. Nevermind he said that he would never vote for a bill that granted immunity. Nevermind that this bill is the last chance at exposing Bush's misdoings regarding the wiretapping scandal. The key is that it undermines individual protections; and he voted for it in favor of executive branch power.
Of course he did.
He's suddenly faced with the prospect that there's a very good chance -- better than 50/50, IMO -- that he's going to be the next Executive. So now he realizes that executive power is a Good Thing.
Of course it is. If you're calling the shots. The prospect that Obama is going to have such power scares me more than Bush having such power (and Bush having it scares me plenty).
The real problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, the entire telecomm immunity thing isn't the point.
The point is, both the old FISA and the new FISA both allow warrantless searches. The old FISA provided for 72 hours of oversight-free tapping. The new FISA allows for many months of oversight-free tapping. They're both direct and obvious violations of the 4th amendment.
The position put forth by Obama is that "the government needs these tools"; the only correct action is to pursue article V (amendment) and see if they can get them; to violate the amendment because "they want to" is to act as if the constitution doesn't exist.
Why is this so important? Because if one part of the constitution can be ignored, so can any other part. Either we live in a constitutional republic, or we live in a nation ruled by 645 privileged nobles (535 reps, 100 senators, 9 judges and a president) who are not bound by anything other than what they agree upon.
I was brought up to understand that the nation I lived in was designed and authorized as a constitutional republic. How about you? Do you think the constitution should matter with regard to what the government can or cannot do, or are you more inclined to live in a nation ruled and guided exclusively by the fashions and opinions of 645 people? People, I should add, who were sworn into their jobs explicitly committing allegiance to, and swearing defense of, the constitution.
Is the retroactive pardoning of corporations for spying on the citizens distasteful? Yes, you bet it is. But it isn't the root of the problem, and as long as you, and people like you, keep harping on immunity, you're going to be blinded to what is actually wrong.
Foxes guard the henhouse, worse in every way. (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless you are comparing it to the statutes of the "Protect America Act" this law is significantly worse, and does nothing to protect our safety. But it is worse than the PAA, because the statutes of that law expire, which puts us back to the fine FISA act which was passed in 1975. There is nothing that this new law adds to the '75 FISA act which protects our safety. What it does is allows the Executive Branch full power to break the law as it sees fit, with the only oversight coming from the Executive Branch, this law would make the Watergate affair legal.
Re:The answer is right there (Score:3, Insightful)
But, a law basically exonerating perpetrators of a crime (and a Constitutional crime at that) should be a showstopper for ANY bill.
I read his blog post about why he did it, but that doesn't stop it from being wrong. I'm one of those people whose support he lost. I'm not sure how I'm going to change my politics, but that vote just voted me out of the Democratic Party.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is 100% about covering up the most massive, vicious, and egregious violation of the fourth amendment in the history of this nation. It has absolutely fucking nothing to do with surveilling terrorists.
Re:The answer is right there (Score:3, Insightful)
You need to weigh more than just telecom immunity when considering this vote.
One of the principle tenants of Republicanism [wikipedia.org] is the Rule of Law:
Republicanism is the ideology of governing a nation as a republic, with an emphasis on liberty, rule of law, popular sovereignty and the civic virtue practiced by citizens.
The main thing that bothers me about anyone, republican or democrat, voting for any legislation that grants immunity for breaking laws is that sidesteps a core principle of Republicanism. I don't think that the Rule of Law should be open to compromise.
Single-Issue Voting (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't want McCain to win, but at the same time, someone has to have some principles somewhere along the line and I'm not giving up mine. I'm standing up for myself and not supporting Obama any longer.
I don't know about anyone else, but this sounds just as narrow-minded as any other single-issue voter. In a democracy, you will not always get everything you want. You need to weigh what's important, and what's possible, and try to get the best candidate you can. Sure, a multi-party system would help, but beyond that you sound no different than someone voting entirely on the issue of abortion, gay rights, or gun rights.
Sure, if you find FISA to be -the- issue, and it outweighs all other issues (environment, Iraq, foreign policy, etc), then go right ahead and throw your support elsewhere. Or if you think that his stance on FISA shows an endemic problem in his character, then go right ahead.
I think this is crap, too. And I'm really upset (in general, at first glance. I haven't read enough about it to have a full opinion) that Obama voted this way. But there other important aspects of his platform that I -do- agree with, and I won't let this one reasonably large flaw change that.
FISA *is not* broken. (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a THREE DAY grace period between when the spies can start spying, and they have to get their spying rubber-stamped by a Judge.
So, there is NO LAW ENFORCEMENT BENEFIT to this bill. It is purely there to provide cover for CRIMINALS.
Remember that: Anyone who voted for this bill is SOFT ON CRIME and HATES THE AMERICAN VALUES OF FREEDOM AND LIBERTY, EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW, AND DUE PROCESS OF THE LAW.
Re:The answer is right there (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not a tough call at all. There's no grey area here. A bill is either good or evil. Period. Allowing telecom immunity is tantamount to saying that a guy who raped and murdered a child but spends every weekend volunteering at the homeless shelter and helping underprivileged kids is a great choice for a babysitter because he knows how to watch kids.... A bad rider on a good bill makes it a bad bill. One bad apple spoils the barrel and all that.
More to the point, not only is Obama a hypocrite, everyone who did not vote against this bill voted AGAINST the will of the American people---against the voters who elected them---and voted against the U.S. Constitution. Thus, they are twice hypocrites to the oath they swore before Congress:
Can someone explain how any bill that retroactively grants permission for companies to conspire with illegal actions by the federal government to spy on its citizens and subvert the fourth amendment [wikipedia.org] can possibly be interpreted in any way other than as a direct attack on the U.S. Constitution? Seriously? Anyone?
Everyone who voted in favor of the FISA legislation is also, IMHO, a traitor against the United States and is guilty of treason:
Their actions are directly aiding and abetting terrorists by reducing the freedoms that those terrorists despise, thus effectively winning the terrorists' war from within our own government without the bad guys having to lift a finger. The whole lot of those Senators and Representatives should have their citizenship revoked and be ejected from this country for their disloyalty to the Constitution and to the American people.
Do your part. Vote to impeach Congress. Whoever the incumbent is, regardless of your party affiliation, vote for the other candidate. We have to send a message to our government that the public will not roll over and allow our rights to be trampled upon. We must do it NOW before it is too late. And elect an independent for President. But please, not Ron Paul....
Re:At this point it would not matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
Well then, I have to differ with you - a vote for anybody but Obama is a vote for McCain.
It's exactly that line of reasoning that allows the major parties to ignore any issue not important to the swing-states that control the outcome of Presidential Elections in this country.
Don't get me wrong. I used to believe as you do. Go dig into my comment history. I used to rail against people that claimed the Democrats and Republicans are the same and those that voted for Nader. How the hell could you honestly believe that GWB is the same as Al Gore? Al Gore wouldn't have invaded Iraq.
I'm long past those days though. What's the point of caring about healthcare, education, abortion, foreign policy or any of the areas where Republicans/Democrats actually disagree if neither party gives a damn about our rights? Let's review:
1st Amendment: Not defended strongly by either party. See free speech zones [wikipedia.org]
2nd Amendment: Not defended by most Democrats.
4th Amendment: Not defended by most Republicans.
5th Amendment: Not defended by most Republicans.
9th and 10th Amendments: Completely ignored by both parties. Does these even exist in their worldview?
The American experiment ends when people start ignoring the parts of the Constitution that they don't like. Both major parties are guilty of this. Neither of them deserve my support until they change their ways.
I disagree with a lot of what Ron Paul stands for but now I find myself wishing I had given him the money instead of Obama. No, I can't vote for Obama in good faith. Not after today.
Re:The answer is right there (Score:2, Insightful)
So, the old law was "bad" because it was ignored?
Will this one be obeyed because it's so "good"?
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:3, Insightful)
So logically I can't see any reason for him to have done this other then he thought it was the best course of action for us. If he is right or not is different story.
Most politicians think that they're taking the best course of action for us. Bush thinks so. Clinton thought so. Bush's daddy thought so, Reagan thought so, and so on down the line. I really don't give a crap about this, because they all have it. You can bet your ass that McCain will do what he thinks is best for us, and Obama will do what he thinks is best for us.
I don't want a President who will do what he thinks is best for the country. I want a President who will do what I think is right.
Re:The answer is right there (Score:4, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The answer is right there (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The answer is right there (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't we also hate politicians who run around and poll test everything? And really, what would you have done had he gone around and found that his constituents didn't care at all about telecom immmunity?
Re:The answer is right there (Score:5, Insightful)
1) It closed many loopholes that allowed the warrentless wiretaps in the first place.
No it doesn't, these loopholes were NEVER legal, they were illegal, should be investigated, and will be until the president pardons everyone in six months. The illegality of these loopholes was upheld just last week by a federal judge appointed by Reagan (but confirmed during Bush 41's term)
2) Requires further wiretaps to follow at least some process (process isn't perfect but its better than the lack of process before).
There was certainly a process before, it was handled by the Judicial branch of the government, now it is all handled by the Executive, with only the oversight of the Executive branch. In other words the foxes are guarding the henhouse.
Re:The answer is right there (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't care if there's a bill that issues free healthcare and fixes social security. If part of that bill says that 10,000 orphans will get murdered, you don't "take the good with the bad". You throw that shit out and fix it.
Re:You, sir, are correct! (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree. I used to vote for the "lesser of two evils", and I kept getting evil. I've had it, and from now on I'm voting for someone I think will be a good President, even if there's zero chance he'll be elected. That zero chance isn't because of me, it's because of all the other morons in this country that buy into the two-party system and the "wasted vote" myth. If a crappy President gets elected, the only people to blame are the people who voted for him.
If the country goes down the tubes, don't blame me. Blame the people who voted for crappy politicians (which is probably a majority of the voting population). Those of us who were brave enough to vote for non-mainstream candidates, people we actually believe in instead of "the lesser of two evils", will be blameless.
Then Deny Law Enforcement the tools (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's be clear about this. The Immunity was added this way because the administration says that while the Law Enforcement Tools were important, the immunity was more important. They were willing to turn down the law enforcement tools, to get the immunity.
I agree - it *is* more important to deny the principle that when the President orders you to break the law, you are allowed to break the law, than it is to stop another terrorist attack.
Let's make this clear - I lost friends in the Pentagon *and* the World Trade Center, and I would *rather* get hit by Al-Qaeda, *again*, than to have established that the President can order you to break the law.
Frankly, I consider this immunity an another in a series of absolute wrongs foisted on our country by cowards and traitors.
Pug
Re:The answer is right there (Score:3, Insightful)
Every bill comes down to:
provision 1: Feed the hungry children.provision 2: Slaughter baby kittens.So if you vote for it you hate kittens, if you vote against it you hate children.
Re:You admire a politician? (Score:3, Insightful)
Once elected, Obama can enact REAL change and retroactively remove the immunity if it is even worth it.
Sure, just like a Democrat controlled Congress was going to end the war, stand up to Bush, etc. That's the problem with the philosophy of doing all the safe things to gain power. Once you gain it, you still play it safe (or safer) to retain it. It becomes habit forming. It is Karma whoring writ large.
The Republican propaganda machine THRIVES on perceived fears of terrorism; giving them prime ammunition like "Obama voted against finding terrists!",while the bill is GUARANTEED TO PASS ANYWAY, achieves nothing.
It achieves the goal of showing that he is willing to lead. It gives him the opportunity to use those vaunted powers of persuasive speech everyone claims he has. It gives him the opportunity to show he can persuade the people rather than a bare majority of the congress on an issue. Persuasive argumentation versus back alley deals. How novel would that be?
Hey kids! It's all political, all the time! (Score:3, Insightful)
Welcome to the world of politics. As much as I like Obama, one must never forget he is still a politician.
It just took the flag pin and now this for more people to get it. Unlike Hillary, Barack waited until after the primaries to start making the huge mistakes.
The immunity only covers CIVIL liability, criminal liability is still on the table, but with the 'leaders' we have, I cant see anyone bringing criminal charges against the TELCO and Bush et al unless the next president makes it an issue. (which they should)
So chin up, Obama isn't perfect, but aside from a revolution to replace the government, he will be better than what we could get with McCain or what we have now with the moron from Connecticut via Texass.
We didn't lose our rights overnight, and it will take time and effort to regain them. That is if people start worrying more about the future of America and less about gas prices, American Idol, and gay marriage.
What I've learned from all of this... (Score:3, Insightful)
Well after reading everyones' comments, I can now conclude that Obama just made the biggest mistake of his campaign to date. All of his other controversies just led me to roll my eyes and say the press is taking fluff too seriously. But apparently, a lot of you actually thought that Obama was the real deal, representing the little guy, instead of the status quo. I've read comment after comment here by people who've been shocked back into apathy.
You can bet that the media won't report this as much of a misstep. No, they'll probably conclude that it was good for him to do. But this is the first time I've seen his base start to wobble in any real way. Even more so than with Jeremiah Wright. I had always assumed that he had it locked up, but now I wonder if McCain might not have a shot after-all.
Obama could have easily stuck to his guns and further energized his base. Republicans wouldn't have been any more likely to turn out for McCain if Obama had voted against it. All he needs to do is hold onto his base and the election is easily his. McCain will never be able to turn out his base in significant numbers unless Obama chose Hillary as his running mate or we get another 9/11 style event. But with a steady enough build-up, it only takes a few stumbles by Obama for McCain to get within striking distance.
Either way, we're screwed. The next president will take all of the totalitarian powers that Bush had and expand upon them, without regard for the next guy who'll inherit those powers. The congress will continue to rubber-stamp it all and our standard of living will continue to decline. There's no turning back now. There is only starting over.
Re:The answer is right there (Score:3, Insightful)
There will be no criminal cases brought. Bush will pardon everyone involved before leaving office. It was civil or nothing and that is now out the window.
If Bush does pardon the crooks it will solidify the idea that he is the most self serving and corrupt president since Nixon. And even as corrupt as Nixon was, even he cared more about America than winning and in the end he did the only good thing for America and resigned. He couldn't even pardon the other cooks as it would prove he had no respect for the law. He was saving his own ass, but he also started the process of moving past the Watergate mess.
I don't think Bush has that much strength. If it weren't for all the suffering he has instigated, I could feel pity for Bush. He was promoted beyond his abilities and now my kid gets to pay for it.
At least my son got to see how stupid Americans can be when told to either go along with the masses or have their patriotism challenged. Sadly, people were fine with Bush until gas got out of hand.
Re:The answer is right there (Score:3, Insightful)
Right, and the reason you can conclude that is because foreigners clearly are not "people". There's some kind of typo in the Constitution. It really means that only some of the people should be secure in their houses, papers, and effects. And only then when they don't cross borders.
It's real clear...if you squint.
Re:The answer is right there (Score:4, Insightful)
Why not vote against it?
You need to weigh more than just telecom immunity when considering this vote. I'm not saying he made the right vote
Perhaps the 4th Amendment?
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
The what? I don't understand what you are trying to say... The 4th what of what?
It sounds vaguely familiar, but I can't place it. And for whatever reason, it reminds me of buying gasoline at under a dollar a gallon - which I also know could never have existed or happened...
I have a feeling the document you are referring to got burned up in the Pentagon crash on 9/11, because nowadays, very few people seem to remember it ever even existed - and fewer understand what it means - and even fewer understand it's importance.
:-(
Re:The answer is right there (Score:5, Insightful)
That's as much an overly simplistic view of terrorism as the Bush view of it. There are many reasons that they hate us, and different people in those organizations are in it for different reasons. Al Qaeda in Islamic states works in much the same way as the KKK works in the U.S. They look for the issue of the day---reasons for people to be angry at a particular group of people---and then exploit that issue to attract members, who they then indoctrinate into a culture of hate.
Some members of Al Qaeda joined because they were angry over military bases, sure, but far more militants joined because they hate our support of Israel. Far more than that hate us because our country is relatively wealthy and is seen as being greedy (and to some degree, rightly so). Far more people than that hate our general tendency to interfere in the way Arab countries are run, our interference in wars, etc. Still others are determined to spread strict adherence to Sharia (Islamic holy law) worldwide and hate the fact that the U.S. law is so thoroughly different. That last group are the ones who are pretty much going to hate us until we turn into a totalitarian state....
If you really want to combat the problem, you have to take a three-pronged approach. The first, unfortunately, is attacking the immediate threat, which we did to some extent in Afghanistan. It wasn't a pleasant war, but it was arguably necessary.
The second is a policy issue: we need to make a lot of changes in the area of foreign policy to improve relations with the Muslim world, not the least of which is bullwhipping Israel every time they do something stupid like launching missiles into a neighboring country and killing 200 people because some Palestinian killed a single police officer somewhere. We're far too tolerant of such knee-jerk Israeli actions, and the sooner our foreign policy reflects that, the better. We also need to reduce our dependence on oil from that region. This won't in any way make anyone hate us less, but it will at least discourage future U.S. leaders from letting future foreign policy decisions be dictated by oil needs.
The third, ironically, is to promote better understanding of the Muslim religion among Muslim people in the MIddle East. By better educating Muslims about what the Qur'an does and does not say, it will in thwart the perversion of the Qur'an into a text of hatred and war by these terrorists and encourage people to actually follow the teachings of Muhammad (which do not encourage hate or wars, but rather encourage caring for others and behaving in a morally upright fashion).
By that standard, our war on terrorism has also been completely successful. After all, since we started making people strip down and take off their shoes at airports, nobody has carried a bomb onto an airplane. So it must be working. (This despite the fact that the last bomb on a U.S. airplane prior to the Richard Reid incident was Pan Am Flight 103 way back in 1988....)
P.S. The last Al Qaeda attack on U.S. interests was in 2005. Three American hotels in Jordan were bombed. That was more than 2 1/2 years after the U.S. pulled out of Saudi military bases. So no, it almost certainly is not cause and effect....
Re:The answer is right there (Score:2, Insightful)
No, it's not. As with most legislation, there is a core issue at stake whether or not you realize it. With this bill, that core issue is not "What additional powers should we grant to law enforcement agencies to make their job easier?" (debatable, but not here) but rather "Will you compromise a fundamental principle upon which this nation was founded?" The principle in question (simplified) is that it is the responsibility of the Judicial branch to determine whether or not a crime was committed (in a criminal case) or if a plaintiff has a legitimate complaint (in a civil case) and, in either case, to punish or award as appropriate. What Congress did here was pass a bill with a key provision that temporarily (more on this in a minute) bypasses the Judicial process in the interest of protecting valuable partners in what was, at the time, an illegal activity. While the other provisions of this bill may have merit, that debate is not the point here - the subversion of the legal process is.
As for my comment that it "temporarily" bypasses the Judicial process, I believe it is still possible for a case against one of the involved Telcos to be pursued eventually up to the Supreme Court level where the constitutionality of the law can be decided, but I'm not qualified to answer that.
Personally I would applaud a politician who would vote against any piece of legislation that has some positive aspects if there is any part of that bill that would violate their principles. Admittedly, I am operating on the assumption that the politician in question has a defined set of principles, but the optimist in me would like to believe that. If the "Free Money for School" bill guaranteed $30,000 per year towards college expenses for every student but had one clause that is counter to your principles (pick anything you believe in) then you should do everything you can to amend the bill to remove the objectionable clause. If that fails, that you cannot in good conscience vote in favor of the bill.
The election this fall should/will be about many things - the economy, our energy situation, education, health care, and a myriad of other issues. However, there is one core issue that is always at the top of my issues list: integrity. Integrity is more than a blurb in a campaign commercial. Integrity, like trust, is something that must be earned. You must say what you believe and do what you say.
Granted, in any group of people greater than one, compromise is always necessary but those compromises should only be on issues of "lesser conviction". Think something along the lines of "you want to see the latest shoot-em-up movie and your significant other wants something with fewer explosions" - work it out. On the other hand, if you like slaughtering puppies for fun, I would hope that your SO would draw a line in the sand - "No puppy massacres or I'm gone!"
This ended up much longer than I planned, but it boils down to this - if you would not compromise on your principles (and I hope that's true), shouldn't you expect your elected officials to do the same? In this case, I believe the cost of a "Yes" vote is too high.
Re:Who supports FISA? (Score:2, Insightful)
Of course the "conservative" political label does and should not mean "opposing all change". This is a trite summary. It is true that both "conservative" and "liberal" mean something different than they used to and that their connotations in the US differ greatly than in Britain. It's true also that they have been polymorphed but that doesn't mean that they now should be reduced to their dictionary meanings. They're is more depth and history there that you're missing.
I do agree with the poster that we need some way to overhaul the political language. The Left is embracing the term "progressive" once more and maybe that will avoid the "classical-liberal" vis-a-vis "neo-liberal" confusion. "Neo-con" seems a fashionable way to label someone a crazy interventionist hawk (I disagree with that outlook mind you).