EBay Pressured To Block Sales of Ivory Products

RickRussellTX writes "eBay is being pressured by an animal welfare group to ban sales of ivory and animal tooth products on its site. Although eBay is in compliance with the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species when it warns users that such postings may be inviolation of national and international law, the International Fund for Animal Welfare is demanding that they go a step further to search for and delete any posting of ivory products."

Have these people never taken an economics course?

[R2.0]

Where there is a demand, someone will supply, and a market will spring up. Perhaps eBay should get out on moral grounds, but if these folks think it will make a dent in the trade, they are naive.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[Stanistani]

Time for me to start re-selling Ivory Soap on eBay if they do. I love to help other folks train their word filters. Like the NSA. God is great, isn't he?

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[tsm_sf]

Or you could get a job like my friend Ji had, working in fiddles. He says it was the bomb.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[Stanistani]

I slam no fiddle makers. Peace be upon him.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[KDR_11k]

Yeah but black markets exist already and for many people the desire to possess such an item is not large enough to get involved with the black market.

Re:

[billcopc]

You make it sound like the "black market" is a dark hostile entity that requires one cut off their left pinky-toe and murder a man.

The black market is everywhere. You probably know someone, who knows someone, who knows where to get Ivory. Or heroin. Or modchips. Or unlocked phones. Or dishnet cards. Maybe you know a mechanic who does work on the side, in cash. That's black market too!

The black market is anything and everything that either sidesteps legal control, or evades taxes. It is a term create

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[hostyle]

But you can buy any old shit [ebay.com] on ebay ...

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[Candid88]

So just because there's no magic bullet everyone should just let them do it unimpeded?

Same for drugs, kiddie-porn and nuke warhead sales?

With that mentality, why bother doing anything which isn't easily accomplished in one small step!

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[hostyle]

1. Profit!

Re:

[bsDaemon]

Neil Armstrong reached the moon in one small step. Seems to me that's all we really need...

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[poptones]

Where you gonna get a nuke warhead?

For the rest of your stupid argument - yes. Kiddie porn is already made, and drugs fall under "my body, my right."

Re:

[voice_of_all_reason]

Actually, from Ebay. Google told me so.

"Find new and used" nuclear weapons or black people. They've got everything.

http://www.reubenyau.com/black-people-on-ebay-again/ [reubenyau.com]

Re:

[BrotherBeal]

Isn't a "used nuclear weapon" a euphemism for "massive fireball hotter than the surface of the sun?" If so, one wonders how the shipping is handled...

Re:

[jimicus]

For the rest of your stupid argument - yes. Kiddie porn is already made, and drugs fall under "my body, my right."

At least until you wind up addicted and so far out of your mind you'll mug little old ladies to get your next fix.

Anyone who believes all these things should be legalised should live with a drug addict for 6 months. Believe me, it's not pretty.

Re:

[jcgf]

If the laws weren't such that the prices become artificially inflated you would not have that problem as the drugs would be easily and cheaply available to the addicted.

Re:

[bkr1_2k]

Right, because drug companies selling legal drugs are so good about keeping the prices down.

Seriously, there's more at issue than just the cost of the drugs.

Re:

[bhtooefr]

Also, legalization would make it possible to not self-incriminate when going to get help for the drug issues, and would actually make it easier to get out of such a life.

I'll note, however, on the child porn thing... higher demand would equal higher production. So, an artificial demand constraint (illegalizing viewing of it) is necessary, even with artificial supply constraints.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[poptones]

|For the rest of your stupid argument - yes. Kiddie porn is already made, and drugs fall under "my body, my right."

At least until you wind up addicted and so far out of your mind you'll mug little old ladies to get your next fix.

Then I go to jail for mugging little old ladies. Problem solved.

Re:

[jimicus]

At least until you wind up addicted and so far out of your mind you'll mug little old ladies to get your next fix.

Then I go to jail for mugging little old ladies. Problem solved.

This solves the problem of you mugging little old ladies, but not the fundamental problem of what made you mug little old ladies in the first place.

The little old ladies don't like being mugged, and they tend to vote.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[masterzora]

This solves the problem of you mugging little old ladies, but not the fundamental problem of what made you mug little old ladies in the first place.

Good point. Next we should outlaw poverty. If you fall below the poverty line, we arrest you so you won't mug little old ladies. I like where this one is going....

Re:

[jvkjvk]

Yes, I've heard that people on methadone treatment (who get their drugs cheaply or free) tend to go out and mug little old ladies.

Oh wait! They don't! It's only when drugs are expensive and scarce that drug addicts tend turn to criminal activities to support their habit. That's because even to an addict it's much safer not to engage in risky behaviours when there's a choice.

Cheap, legal drugs such as nicotine (which is, mg for mg more addictive than heroine) don't seem to have this issue. What makes you

Re:

[pi_rules]

Where you gonna get a nuke warhead?

ebay.ru?

Re:

[Myopic]

Drugs, yes. Kiddie porn, no. Regular porn, yes. Nukes, no. Guns, yes.

Ivory... mmmm -- I'll go with no, not usually, but sometimes it's okay.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[happyemoticon]

I'd say drug abuse definitely has a victim. In fact, anyone who's seen pictures of Amy Winehouse's skin condition has grounds to sue for emotional distress.

Re:

[Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS-]

If you outlaw all ivory products then the legitimate ones get screwed over too.

Then again that is the same premise behind gun control so /. will likely be ok with that.

Re:

[PunkOfLinux]

... sigh...
Do you EVER listen to people?
A) there is more to gun ownership than killing people
B) outlawing guns will do NOTHING to ensure that the police will be better armed than whoever they're about to encounter. You know, the whole "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" thing.

Re:

[bhtooefr]

That makes the HUGE assumption that I was actually involved in the selection of my government.

And, I'll note that the US Constitution specifically states that people have the right to bear arms... and one huge reason for that is in the event that they DO need to rebel against their government.

Re:

[R2.0]

YEAH! I mean, look at how fast the US military conquered Iraq, confiscated all the guns, and left it in peace and harmo...

Oh, yeah...

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

Gun Control: The theory that 110 pound women should have to fistfight with 220 pound rapists.

You're a good example of liberal fascism.

[Anonymous Coward]

*sarcasm* Oh, you're right! Nobody ever committed murder until the invention of the firearm, so if we divest ourselves of this terrible invention, we'll also eliminate murder!

Newsflash, a-hole. People have murdered each other since there were people, and they will continue to do so, be it with a knife, a club, or even a spoon. That is the problem with you liberals. You want to try to turn a dangerous world into a warm and safe cocoon for everyone, but the only way you can do so is through fascism. Yo

Re:

[jedidiah]

I can protect my household or feed my family with a firearm. What are these legitimate uses for ivory?

Does Ebay sell guns?

Do they sell pharmaceutical narcotics? ...just 'cause they can do it, it doesn't necessarily mean that
it's worth the beaurocratic overhead and the possible negative
press that would come from not correctly vetting all vendors.

Libertarianism is a "fringe" viewpoint. The fact that we're a little weird doesn't alter that.

That will work great

[oahazmatt]

That will work great for my new eBay listing...

African Elephant - tusks removed - contains 0% Ivory!

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

Or mine - an elephant penis cudgel. It's infused with epoxy and guaranteed to never corrode or break when you crack it against the skull of some Free Mumia loser.

Re:

[Detritus]

Where can I get my free Mumia?

Re:

[oahazmatt]

Let me guess, you're going to inflate the shipping costs aren't you?

Nah, I'll just sell by the pound. That should make everyone happy.

Pianos

[alexander_686]

Well then - how am I going to sell my old piano then?

Re:

[morgan_greywolf]

a lot of pianos, even many old pianos, use plastic rather than ebony and ivory keys.

Even when ivory was legal everywhere to buy, it was very, very expensive; thus it wasn't used in many pianos once plastic keys were invented

Re:Pianos

[rivaldufus]

It depends on the age. The pianos I had growing up were quite old and all had Ivory veneer. As far as I know, the actual key mechanism is always wood, with the veneer... the same is usually true with modern pianos - wooden key with plastic veneer.

Even ignoring the fact that someone killed an elephant to get the ivory for the keys, I've always hated playing on ivory keys as they would break more easily than plastic.

Re:

[Myopic]

Wow that's weird. I read all the way down to your comment before I realized that the rest of you think ivory comes from elephants. Where I'm from, ivory comes from walruses.

Re:

[ShadowsHawk]

They strip it out of pianos that are imported into the US. It doesn't matter when it was made, they'll still destroy it.

Re:

[kurzweilfreak]

It's no problem for you to sell your piano w/ ivory keys domestically (I work for a piano retailer, we sell/repair/rebuild ivory key pianos all the time), however it is illegal to import or export any piano with ivory keys. Piano keys are wood (spruce) with ivory or plastic keytops, not solid ivory or plastic. Some manufacturers today use a synthetic ivory compound that simulates many of the properties of ivory (slightly porous to absorb sweat and oil from the fingers). An interesting tidbit is that one ma

I'll skip to the end to save you some time

[Kelbear]

eBay isn't going to do anything about it.

Ebay isn't interested in policing the existing business to protect users, so you can be damned sure it won't do anything for elephants.

Re:I'll skip to the end to save you some time

[WK2]

"Ebay isn't interested in policing the existing business"

That's not true. eBay bans stuff on its site all the time. Like MMORPG gold. And that's legal everywhere. Before you can decide whether or not eBay will choose to ban ivory, you need to figure out what criteria eBay uses to ban stuff.

In the case of MMORPG gold, it was because large corporations wanted them too (and probably paid them). If people with a lot of power ask them to ban ivory, they might do it. You're right about the little people though. eBay doesn't care about them.

Re:I'll skip to the end to save you some time

[Dancindan84]

You're right about the little people though. eBay doesn't care about them.

Nope, you can sell as many midgets as you want.

Re:I'll skip to the end to save you some time

[nurb432]

They restrict weapon sales too, which are *totally* legal if done according to the state/federal rules.

Re:

[hairykrishna]

You're lucky. Here in the UK they've banned anything that might LOOK like a weapon. No more paintball guns or BB guns. No pocket knives either.

Re:

[nurb432]

There are a few areas like that here in the states too. I refuse to live there or do business with those areas.

Thankfully most of the country isn't like that and still honours our constitutional rights.

Re:

[jonwil]

eBay will usually remove an item if there is a threat of a lawsuit over it (MMO gold, Scientology e-meters, OEM copies of windows etc)
They will generally also remove an item if it violates the law (i.e. stuff which is illegal to own or illegal to sell in the way its being sold like scalpers selling event tickets in states where doing so is illegal)

Won't happen.

[snarfies]

Ebay does not give a crap, so long as they get their cut. Want proof? Go ahead and report any of the THOUSANDS of Taiwanese bootleg anime DVDs on Ebay and see if even one gets yanked.

I'll save you some time - they won't. Last time I tried (and this, I will confess, was almost a decade ago) I was told to provide proof that I was the copyright holder.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

> Ebay does not give a crap, so long as they get their cut. Want proof?

Will happen. E-Bay does not allow auctions of guns or gun part or most other gun related items, though they could make money from the sales.
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1017-221898.html

Politically they lean on the side of the tree huggers, so I'm sure they will help the animal lovers.. :)

Re:

[guaigean]

Politically they lean on the side of the tree huggers, so I'm sure they will help the animal lovers.. :)

It'd be nice if there was a competing site that didn't dictate morality then. It's one thing to restrict illegal activity, and sensible. It's another to restrict legal activity on your own perception of morality. They're a for profit, publicly traded company. To me, it sounds like they're not maximizing profit to their shareholders if they're making choices as to what people can or can't sell, even legally. What about those of us who aren't Vegan, Pro-Gun Control, Environmental Activists that simply w

Re:

[Hijacked Public]

And further, Ebay payment site Paypal will not allow transactions for the items you mention even if the sale doesn't involve Ebay.

If you leave any clues in your Paypal description that the money is for, say, a DIAS module, they'll cancel the transaction.

If you frequent the for sale forums at places like Sniper's Hide you'll see many posts asking for 'discreet Paypal'.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:

[NiceGeek]

Another example of Ebay actually policing their auctions. Hasbro has recently been getting a lot of Transformer knock-offs removed.

So...

[Otter]

Reading the story, it doesn't seem like there's a single demonstrated case of illegal ivory sale on EBay, just a lot of numbers being thrown around about ivory sales overall.

Re:

[Otter]

The other curious thing is that the story claims (quoting the IFAW guy, I guess) that U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service permits are required for legal sales in the US and then goes on to to state that there are no such permits! It's surprising enough that the "expert" doesn't have even a basic understanding of the law, but you'd think the writer would at least go back and correct an earlier paragraph!

Re:

[Hungus]

I have not checked for ivory but it would not be surprising if both statements were true. marijuana and Alcohol were both regulated in this way at recent points in history here in the US. You had to have a tax permit to carry, buy or sell either but there were no tax permits available. It was just a way of making trade illegal without "violating" the constitution.

Re:

[compro01]

The permits were available, but you had to have the stuff first to get the permit, which is illegal to have without the permit. Catch-22s are fun.

Re:

[tzhuge]

I don't think it's a Catch-22. It sounds more like grandfathering. You can only get the permit for ivory you already have prior to the ban, and I'm guessing you can sell that ivory w/ the permit. It's just that you can't get any new ivory fresh off the elephants.

Re:

[jlarocco]

No, I think he was talking about marijuana being a catch-22. You had to take it to the licensing office to get the permit. But once you got there, you would be arrested for having it without the permit. It was on the History channel a while back.

Re:

[Otter]

I have not checked for ivory but it would not be surprising if both statements were true.

Well, if you RTFA, the Fish and Wildlife Service guy states that permits are not required, in contrast to what both IFAW and EBay are saying.

Boo Hoo

[strikeleader]

As long as eBay is following the law they should tell those bleeding hearts to go pound sand.

Re:

[Morris Thorpe]

I by no means toe the politically correct line but....you are either ignorant or heartless.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0703/sights_n_sounds/ [nationalgeographic.com]

Re:

[Reality Master 201]

you are either ignorant or heartless

Ah, why can't it be both?

Re:

[camperdave]

you are either ignorant or heartless

Ah, why can't it be both?
If you don't know, then I guess that puts you in the ignorant category :-)

Re:Boo Hoo

[bigstrat2003]

you are either ignorant or heartless.

Not caring about an issue is not the same as heartlessness. I don't give a flying fsck about the plight of the elephants, but I'm about as far from heartless as they come. Everyone has some things they don't care about, that doesn't make them bad people.

Re:

[geekoid]

What?
As long as they follow the law, then they should ignore these request.
If people want it illegal, then they should focus their energy on making it illegal.

I see this shit too often.
People protesting fir stores instead of trying to change the law putting legal business out of business through unethical tactics, People protesting a company the sponsors legal events, instead of focusing on the event.
It's just mean, unethical bully tactics, and we shouldn't stand for it.

It's Forbidden Everywhere else

[Toad-san]

I have no problem with this at all. No one in the world is supposed to be permitted to sell anything but antique ivory. So why would eBay be exempted from this?

Re:It's Forbidden Everywhere else

[Z34107]

They're not exempted from this - I haven't read the article yet (of course) but it says ebay follows all of the laws.

This group wants them to go not sell any Ivory - no antiques, pianos, etc. Nothing. Even if it's perfectly legal.

Next will be any fur and leather products. Stay tuned!

Re:

[athakur999]

eBay doesn't sell ivory. eBay sells an item listing and auction service.

Re:It's Forbidden Everywhere else

[Bayoudegradeable]

Not going for flamebait here... What if I have a pair of antique ivory chopsticks bought a long, long time ago and I wish to sell them on eBay to a U.S. customer? That is legal, correct? So why punish all of us wishing to use eBay for legal purposes? Wait, I can get drugs, prostitutes and many other illegal goods and services, so shut the whole thing down? Stopping people from legitimate uses in order to halt illegal ones seems to be a slippery slope. I am actually all for stopping modern trade in modern ivory, but to ban something the law allows sounds like censorship to appease a cause.

Re:

[jeiler]

+1 Insightful (Unofficial). Out of mod points, darnit.

Vintage items?

[jockeys]

The article is not 100% clear on whether an item must be older than 100 years or just older than the 1989 ban to still legally be sold.

Does anyone know?

I collect old straight razors, and have been looking to sell an old piano (not 100 years old, though) so the issue affects me personally.

Re:Vintage items?

[beadfulthings]

The convention among people who might be interested in ivory is that objects more than 50 years old are OK. You would most likely be both legally and morally in the clear with an old piano and antique razors. I would guess that nobody has manufactured straight razors with ivory handles in the past 50 years, and celluloid keys for pianos have also prevailed in that time frame. The problem comes with people who lie about the age of the ivory they're selling. (Incidentally, for people who might be interested in the "look and feel" of ivory without the slaughter, I'd strongly suggest a look at "vegetable ivory," or tagua. It is a nut-kernel product that actually has the look, feel, grain, and strength of the real stuff. It can be worked, carved, and shaped just like the real thing, and it lasts just as long. It's entirely renewable, and its harvest and preparation provide employment for people in several economically distressed areas of the world. Any amateur carvers or makers of jewelry would do well to investigate its excellent properties.)

Re:

[mparker762]

I also collect and shave with straight razors, and there are definitely new razors being made with ivory scales, though the manufacturers all claim to be using mammoth ivory. I always assumed there were certificates and licenses that they had to have to use any sort of ivory, but maybe I'm wrong. Anybody know what German law is on ivory (the DoVo company that makes these is in Solingen Germany)?

The bigger problem is that it can be tough to tell real ivory from ivory-looking celluloid just by visual inspec

Re:Vintage items?

[beadfulthings]

Hmm. I would never have guessed that, but I suppose the fifty-year rule could still apply. I buy a lot of beads, what with one thing and another, and I have a few observations. First, if everything billed as mammoth ivory were really mammoth ivory, the mammoths would never have become extinct. Second, I do not sell on Ebay and trust very little of what I buy there. I use it only for the very cheapest staple items, and I purchase trivial lots first when I'm checking out a seller. I'd never buy gemstone beads there, and there are precisely two sellers from whom I'll by vintage beads. So a healthy dose of skepticism can be your best friend. Finally, I collect vintage and new fountain pens. I guess that's similar to straight razors in some senses. While I've had a couple of stellar buys on Ebay, I regard that as "hobby money" and would not cry too hard if "stung." Still, I've found it's better to become involved with several groups of like-minded collectors. In smaller groups, it's easier to check out reputations, etc. For these purposes, something like Yahoo can turn out to be a good starting point; if you're collecting it, chances are there's a group of people into the same thing. That can serve as as a connecting point to other groups and to reputable buyers and sellers. (I suggest Yahoo because many collectors aren't especially technical and find it easiest to use.) It's also possible, within a good group, to gain reliable knowledge about things like Germany's ivory laws.

Re:

[lilomar]

...his skin was pale and his eye was odd...

Re:

[Rob T Firefly]

and the location of origin (Asian vs. African)

I don't know that!
AAAAaaaagghhhh...

They can't

[Hankapobe]

She admits that the company does not inspect ivory sold via its site to ensure that it was harvested prior to the CITES ban.

How could they? The sellers can just lie and say it's pre-CITES. What' eBay supposed to do? Have everyone who wants to sell ivory get some sort of certificate and mail it to eBay before listing? Or eBay inspects everything? The only recourse is to ban all ivory sales.

Ebayny and Ivory...

[Rastignac]

...Live together in perfect harmony.

(let's sing together !)

Re:

[eck011219]

Oh, if only I had mod points right now.

+1 Groan

How much do ya wanna bet....

[mark-t]

... that somebody's gonna try selling a few bars of ivory soap on Ebay and their auction will get deleted?

The more serious issue

[RickRussellTX]

(Disclaimer: I'm the OP.)

The issue that bothers me, and it has nothing to do with elephants or ivory, is that eBay is merely a silent broker in these transactions. Could you realistically expect the relevant carriers of information to ban exchanges of ivory arranged over e-mail? Over postal mail? The telephone? At swap meets?

eBay has built the smoothest, most liquid, easiest-to-use method of arranging private sales between geographically disparate private parties. That results in transaction volume that far exceeds the capability of any single person to review it (and read TFA and you'll see that even IFAW built its statistics by doing the most basic text searches -- they didn't actually try to verify anything).

Organizations that like to tell people what to do and get themselves in the news, like the IFAW, hate such liquid markets. They want all transactions involving their particular interest to be monitored, filtered, verified, etc. Even though they are not willing to do it themselves.

So if we monitor, filter, and verify transactions involving ivory, where do we stop? Do we ever stop? Does private enterprise go away and get replaced by "monitored and certified enterprise"?

Re:The more serious issue

[0xdeadbeef]

Ebay's own list of prohibited and restricted items [ebay.com]:

* Adult Material (see Mature Audiences)
* Alcohol (see also Wine)
* Animals and Wildlife Products - examples include live animals, mounted specimens, and ivory
* Art
* Artifacts - examples include Native American crafts, cave formations, and grave-related items
* Catalytic Converters and Test Pipes
* Cell Phone (Wireless) Service Contracts
* Charity or Fundraising Listings
* Clothing, Used
* Coins
* Contracts
* Cosmetics, Used
* Counterfeit Currency and Stamps
* Credit Cards
* Drugs & Drug Paraphernalia
* Drugs, Describing Drugs or Drug-like Substances
* Electronics Equipment - examples include cable TV de-scramblers, radar scanners, and traffic signal control devices
* Electronic Surveillance Equipment - examples include wiretapping devices, and telephone bugging devices
* Embargoed Goods and Prohibited Countries - examples include items from Cuba
* Event Tickets
* Firearms, Weapons and Knives - examples include pepper spray, replicas and stun guns
* Food
* Gift Cards
* Government and Transit Documents
* Government and Transit Uniforms
* Government IDs and Licenses
* Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Items - examples include batteries, fireworks, and Freon
* Human Parts and Remains
* Importation of Goods into the United States - examples include CDs that were intended only for distribution in a certain country
* International Trading
* Items Encouraging Illegal Activity - examples include an eBook describing how to create methamphetamine
* Lockpicking Devices
* Lottery Tickets
* Mailing Lists and Personal Information
* Manufacturers' Coupons
* Mature Audiences
* Medical Devices - examples include contact lenses, pacemakers, and surgical instruments
* Multi-level Marketing, Pyramid and Matrix Programs
* Offensive Material - examples include ethnically or racially offensive material and Nazi memorabilia
* Pesticides
* Plants (see Weeds and Seeds)
* Police-Related Items
* Political Memorabilia
* Postage Meters
* Prescription Drugs
* Prohibited Services
* Real Estate
* Recalled Items
* Slot Machines
* Stamps
* Stocks and Other Securities
* Stolen Property and Property with Removed Serial Numbers
* Surveillance Equipment
* Teacher's Edition Textbooks

Re:

[crymeph0]

So you're fine with the USPS opening up every package you ship and inspecting its contents to verify you're not shipping anything illegal? They are literally acting as a middle-man by carrying your package to the recipient, and they are profiting from it by charging you for the service.

They're just trolling.

[Shotgun]

The International Fund for Animal Welfare is just trolling for attention. It's a tried and true technique. Attack a large and popular entity and charge them with the responsibility of handling your pet project to save the world.

How about this "International Fund for Animal Welfare"? Instead of bitching real loud, how about you bid for the ivory, then tell the sellers that you will pick it up. Show up at the seller's door with law enforcement.

Oh, I see. That doesn't get you free advertisement for your fund raising efforts.

Re:

[fermion]

While you may not agree with the fact that animals should not be tortured, even though most people I know do agree that animals should not suffer unduly, for instance good hunter really do try to make the kill in one shot, there is a larger issue. Poaching.

Most governments do not allow Elephants to be killed, or control the killing of elephants very carefully. The poachers who kill the elephants are criminals, just like the person who takes a deer off your land, that is if you own any land, or have the

Poaching is a myth; elephants died of impaction

[Reziac]

Several decades back, one of the major animal control agencies in Africa investigated the issue of ivory poaching -- and to their own astonishment, discovered it was entirely a myth. Poaching simply wasn't happening.

And they discovered that those huge "elephant graveyards" had another cause entirely.

Elephants are grazers, NOT browsers. This means they eat, and are designed to eat, GRASSES. They are NOT designed to eat shoots and twigs, nor can they digest that much cellulose.

The elephants found dead in thos

Re:

[bkr1_2k]

You'll also find that individual "stings" are considered entrapment and are generally illegal unless conducted, from the start, by police.

If you wait until you receive the product, you are also breaking the law by having the contraband, whether you're the seller or buyer. So they can actually charge you with a crime in your little scenario.

Sorry, still won't work.

Re:

[Shotgun]

Which country is that in Africa that has a legal concept of "entrapment"?

From what I've heard from fellow workers (never been there myself) in most African countries, once the responsible authorities discover who is selling the ivory without paying said authority its proper cut, said seller will get a fast trial and a fair shooting.

In any case, Ebay provides for exposure of the sellers. Driving the trade underground is pointless, if not counter-productive.

C'mon, hippies...

[Nullav]

Unless it's an ivory gun or something, selling ivory that was yanked off of an elephant isn't going to kill anyone. If you want to help, target the people stealing tusks and selling new ivory, rather than those with a bit too much stuff in their attics.

Re:

[couchslug]

If people genuinely wanted to reduce trade in endangered species they'd support devaluing the products by ranching and harvesting the species instead.

Domestic cows aren't hunted to extinction.

DAMMIT

[LockeOnLogic]

And I was going to buy that ivory backscratcher...

eBay Needs a Competitor

[Nom du Keyboard]

eBay needs a competitor who is willing to sell all the things eBay won't (lawfully acquired ivory, concert and sporting tickets of all types, legal second-hand copies of AutoCad, Scientology e-meters), along with everything else. Also one who takes payments other than PayPal. Someone like that ought to eventually eat eBay's lunch.

legitimate sales

[bkr1_2k]

There are legitimate sales of ivory. Antiques dealers come to mind as the most obvious of them.

Unfortunately, eBay will probably cave on this as they do with so many other things.

Not just a violation...

[HTH NE1]

such postings may be inviolation of national and international law

It's more than just a violation, it's an inviolation.

Thought they were already doing this

[goltz20707]

A while back I tried to auction off a vicuna fur coat on eBay (from an estate sale), not realizing that vicuna is considered an endangered species. eBay curtly informed me of this fact and summarily deleted the auction. So why do ivory auctions only get a warning?

Ivory trade isn't necessarily bad

[SirGarlon]

First, the ivory ban is not a 100% ban. There is some legal trade in ivory. The legality of an ivory sale depends on the provenance of the ivory. I usually sympathize with environmentalists but it's just ridiculous to try to stop all ivory sales in order to prevent illegal sales.

Second, there is serious question whether the ivory ban is a good policy. Legal, managed hunting [coloradocollege.edu] is a promising alternative. It would be arrogant and stupid to try to tell African or South Asian governments they can't manage t

Elephant Farms

[Quiet_Desperation]

Why don't some of the countries in the area just breed elephants on farms as a livestock animal? You get the ivory as a valuable export. You get the meat to feed your people. You pull elephants way back from the brink of extinction. And so on.

Re:

[sesshomaru]

I guess the Simpson's isn't popular anymore... [snpp.com]