EBay Pressured To Block Sales of Ivory Products

RickRussellTX writes "eBay is being pressured by an animal welfare group to ban sales of ivory and animal tooth products on its site. Although eBay is in compliance with the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species when it warns users that such postings may be inviolation of national and international law, the International Fund for Animal Welfare is demanding that they go a step further to search for and delete any posting of ivory products."

Have these people never taken an economics course?

[R2.0]

Where there is a demand, someone will supply, and a market will spring up. Perhaps eBay should get out on moral grounds, but if these folks think it will make a dent in the trade, they are naive.

Pianos

[alexander_686]

Well then - how am I going to sell my old piano then?

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[KDR_11k]

Yeah but black markets exist already and for many people the desire to possess such an item is not large enough to get involved with the black market.

So...

[Otter]

Reading the story, it doesn't seem like there's a single demonstrated case of illegal ivory sale on EBay, just a lot of numbers being thrown around about ivory sales overall.

It's Forbidden Everywhere else

[Toad-san]

I have no problem with this at all. No one in the world is supposed to be permitted to sell anything but antique ivory. So why would eBay be exempted from this?

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[Candid88]

So just because there's no magic bullet everyone should just let them do it unimpeded?

Same for drugs, kiddie-porn and nuke warhead sales?

With that mentality, why bother doing anything which isn't easily accomplished in one small step!

Re:It's Forbidden Everywhere else

[Z34107]

They're not exempted from this - I haven't read the article yet (of course) but it says ebay follows all of the laws.

This group wants them to go not sell any Ivory - no antiques, pianos, etc. Nothing. Even if it's perfectly legal.

Next will be any fur and leather products. Stay tuned!

Re:It's Forbidden Everywhere else

[Bayoudegradeable]

Not going for flamebait here... What if I have a pair of antique ivory chopsticks bought a long, long time ago and I wish to sell them on eBay to a U.S. customer? That is legal, correct? So why punish all of us wishing to use eBay for legal purposes? Wait, I can get drugs, prostitutes and many other illegal goods and services, so shut the whole thing down? Stopping people from legitimate uses in order to halt illegal ones seems to be a slippery slope. I am actually all for stopping modern trade in modern ivory, but to ban something the law allows sounds like censorship to appease a cause.

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS-]

If you outlaw all ivory products then the legitimate ones get screwed over too.

Then again that is the same premise behind gun control so /. will likely be ok with that.

The more serious issue

[RickRussellTX]

(Disclaimer: I'm the OP.)

The issue that bothers me, and it has nothing to do with elephants or ivory, is that eBay is merely a silent broker in these transactions. Could you realistically expect the relevant carriers of information to ban exchanges of ivory arranged over e-mail? Over postal mail? The telephone? At swap meets?

eBay has built the smoothest, most liquid, easiest-to-use method of arranging private sales between geographically disparate private parties. That results in transaction volume that far exceeds the capability of any single person to review it (and read TFA and you'll see that even IFAW built its statistics by doing the most basic text searches -- they didn't actually try to verify anything).

Organizations that like to tell people what to do and get themselves in the news, like the IFAW, hate such liquid markets. They want all transactions involving their particular interest to be monitored, filtered, verified, etc. Even though they are not willing to do it themselves.

So if we monitor, filter, and verify transactions involving ivory, where do we stop? Do we ever stop? Does private enterprise go away and get replaced by "monitored and certified enterprise"?

Re:So...

[Hungus]

I have not checked for ivory but it would not be surprising if both statements were true. marijuana and Alcohol were both regulated in this way at recent points in history here in the US. You had to have a tax permit to carry, buy or sell either but there were no tax permits available. It was just a way of making trade illegal without "violating" the constitution.

They're just trolling.

[Shotgun]

The International Fund for Animal Welfare is just trolling for attention. It's a tried and true technique. Attack a large and popular entity and charge them with the responsibility of handling your pet project to save the world.

How about this "International Fund for Animal Welfare"? Instead of bitching real loud, how about you bid for the ivory, then tell the sellers that you will pick it up. Show up at the seller's door with law enforcement.

Oh, I see. That doesn't get you free advertisement for your fund raising efforts.

Re:Pianos

[Anonymous Coward]

But some use a plastic center, and ivory veneers.

You're a good example of why America is so screwed

[Anonymous Coward]

The "right of the people" to keep murder weapons is archaic and backwards. We abolished slavery because it was unnecessary and wrong, and we should abolish gun ownership because it is unnecessary and wrong. Everyone likes to cite police response times as a factor in gun ownership but if the police did not have to worry about armed vigilante citizens they could go in with the knowledge that they are better-armed than whoever they might encounter and with no fear of being shot. Response times would improve and officer morale and safety would be increased a thousand times.

As far as I am concerned, there is no such thing as a legitimate gun trade.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[poptones]

Where you gonna get a nuke warhead?

For the rest of your stupid argument - yes. Kiddie porn is already made, and drugs fall under "my body, my right."

Re:You're a good example of why America is so scre

[PunkOfLinux]

... sigh...
Do you EVER listen to people?
A) there is more to gun ownership than killing people
B) outlawing guns will do NOTHING to ensure that the police will be better armed than whoever they're about to encounter. You know, the whole "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" thing.

Re:I'll skip to the end to save you some time

[nurb432]

They restrict weapon sales too, which are *totally* legal if done according to the state/federal rules.

Re:So...

[tzhuge]

I don't think it's a Catch-22. It sounds more like grandfathering. You can only get the permit for ivory you already have prior to the ban, and I'm guessing you can sell that ivory w/ the permit. It's just that you can't get any new ivory fresh off the elephants.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[jimicus]

For the rest of your stupid argument - yes. Kiddie porn is already made, and drugs fall under "my body, my right."

At least until you wind up addicted and so far out of your mind you'll mug little old ladies to get your next fix.

Anyone who believes all these things should be legalised should live with a drug addict for 6 months. Believe me, it's not pretty.

Renewable resource

[Anonymous Coward]

Ivory is a renewable resource. The problem is in determining when the source is legal. There aren't many elephant and walrus farms. There are some legal sources of ivory...and why does Wikipedia say eBay banned ivory in 2007? If it's already banned, what are we talking about? Don't make me RFTA!

eBay Needs a Competitor

[Nom du Keyboard]

eBay needs a competitor who is willing to sell all the things eBay won't (lawfully acquired ivory, concert and sporting tickets of all types, legal second-hand copies of AutoCad, Scientology e-meters), along with everything else. Also one who takes payments other than PayPal. Someone like that ought to eventually eat eBay's lunch.

Re:You're a good example of why America is so scre

[bhtooefr]

That makes the HUGE assumption that I was actually involved in the selection of my government.

And, I'll note that the US Constitution specifically states that people have the right to bear arms... and one huge reason for that is in the event that they DO need to rebel against their government.

Re:You're a good example of why America is so scre

[Anonymous Coward]

Gun Control: The theory that 110 pound women should have to fistfight with 220 pound rapists.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[poptones]

|For the rest of your stupid argument - yes. Kiddie porn is already made, and drugs fall under "my body, my right."

At least until you wind up addicted and so far out of your mind you'll mug little old ladies to get your next fix.

Then I go to jail for mugging little old ladies. Problem solved.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[bkr1_2k]

Right, because drug companies selling legal drugs are so good about keeping the prices down.

Seriously, there's more at issue than just the cost of the drugs.

Re:Vintage items?

[beadfulthings]

Hmm. I would never have guessed that, but I suppose the fifty-year rule could still apply. I buy a lot of beads, what with one thing and another, and I have a few observations. First, if everything billed as mammoth ivory were really mammoth ivory, the mammoths would never have become extinct. Second, I do not sell on Ebay and trust very little of what I buy there. I use it only for the very cheapest staple items, and I purchase trivial lots first when I'm checking out a seller. I'd never buy gemstone beads there, and there are precisely two sellers from whom I'll by vintage beads. So a healthy dose of skepticism can be your best friend. Finally, I collect vintage and new fountain pens. I guess that's similar to straight razors in some senses. While I've had a couple of stellar buys on Ebay, I regard that as "hobby money" and would not cry too hard if "stung." Still, I've found it's better to become involved with several groups of like-minded collectors. In smaller groups, it's easier to check out reputations, etc. For these purposes, something like Yahoo can turn out to be a good starting point; if you're collecting it, chances are there's a group of people into the same thing. That can serve as as a connecting point to other groups and to reputable buyers and sellers. (I suggest Yahoo because many collectors aren't especially technical and find it easiest to use.) It's also possible, within a good group, to gain reliable knowledge about things like Germany's ivory laws.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[jimicus]

At least until you wind up addicted and so far out of your mind you'll mug little old ladies to get your next fix.

Then I go to jail for mugging little old ladies. Problem solved.

This solves the problem of you mugging little old ladies, but not the fundamental problem of what made you mug little old ladies in the first place.

The little old ladies don't like being mugged, and they tend to vote.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[masterzora]

This solves the problem of you mugging little old ladies, but not the fundamental problem of what made you mug little old ladies in the first place.

Good point. Next we should outlaw poverty. If you fall below the poverty line, we arrest you so you won't mug little old ladies. I like where this one is going....

Re:You're a good example of why America is so scre

[R2.0]

YEAH! I mean, look at how fast the US military conquered Iraq, confiscated all the guns, and left it in peace and harmo...

Oh, yeah...

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[billcopc]

You make it sound like the "black market" is a dark hostile entity that requires one cut off their left pinky-toe and murder a man.

The black market is everywhere. You probably know someone, who knows someone, who knows where to get Ivory. Or heroin. Or modchips. Or unlocked phones. Or dishnet cards. Maybe you know a mechanic who does work on the side, in cash. That's black market too!

The black market is anything and everything that either sidesteps legal control, or evades taxes. It is a term created by government (and the ethically fragile) to create an "Us vs Them" perspective against things that are beyond their control. If Bush were to outlaw the Qur'an, any sales of the book would be considered black market transactions. That's all it means.

For most people, honest or otherwise, it isn't much of a leap to acquire "black market" goods. It's not something that keeps people up at night in cold sweat. It's just some guy who doesn't give you a receipt with your purchase.