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Domains Blocked By US Treasury 'Blacklist' 525

yuna49 writes "Adam Liptak of the New York Times reports today about the plight of a Spanish tour operator whose domain names have been embargoed by his domain name registrar (eNom). They pulled his domains after they discovered the tour operator's name on a US Treasury blacklist. It turns out he packages tours to Cuba largely for European tourists who can legally travel there, unlike Americans. The article cites 'a press release issued in December 2004, almost three years before eNom acted. It said Mr. Marshall's company had helped Americans evade restrictions on travel to Cuba and was "a generator of resources that the Cuban regime uses to oppress its people." It added that American companies must not only stop doing business with the company but also freeze its assets, meaning that eNom did exactly what it was legally required to do.' The only part of the operator's business in the United States is his domain name registration; all other aspects of his business lie outside the United States."
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Domains Blocked By US Treasury 'Blacklist'

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  • ... are breaking the law if they go there?

    *gets out his eraser and starts removing that "Land Of The Free" line from all the songbooks...*
  • And yet... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gillbates ( 106458 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @07:45PM (#22644032) Homepage Journal

    How many here would decry the Chinese and assorted third world countries for censorship of the internet, and yet, here we (in the US) act no differently. It makes me wonder how many things we just don't see, because the DNS entry doesn't even show up.

    Are we truly free? Or is that just an illusion?

  • Get a .eu (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Marcion ( 876801 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @07:46PM (#22644042) Homepage Journal
    They are mostly free too because no one has bought them. But perhaps useful in this case,
  • by KublaiKhan ( 522918 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @07:47PM (#22644050) Homepage Journal
    ...to the EU's argument that censorship restricts free trade. This looks to be a fairly clear example where censorship caused direct economic difficulties.
  • Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Frosty Piss ( 770223 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @07:47PM (#22644052)
    Of course it's bullshit. But what is eNom to do? They are in the same spot as any other American company. What we should be doing electing politicians that have the sanity to ignore the screeching Cuban expats in Miami, and scrap the embargo, which if anything only keeps the Castro Brothers in power.

    But, this travel company has learned another lesson: Don't buy domains from eNom, they suck in so many ways....

  • by spleen_blender ( 949762 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @07:48PM (#22644066)
    I mean, this has me chilled to the bone. Ignoring the ridiculousness that in a "free" country we have "travel restrictions", the fact that they can legally perform such blocking with little or no recourse alone has me shaking.

    I fear we are too trustworthy in the robustness of the internet and I'm even more afraid of the day if the powers at large decide the bring the hammer down. I don't think net neutrality legislation would be effective against a determined oppressor, it only takes a few dragging anchors for them to tear through a few laws.
  • irony (Score:5, Insightful)

    by wizardforce ( 1005805 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @07:50PM (#22644084) Journal

    It said Mr. Marshall's company had helped Americans evade restrictions on travel to Cuba and was 'a generator of resources that the Cuban regime uses to oppress its people.'
    I don't think they fully appreciate the irony of that statement. trying to stop funds from tourism being used to oppress cuba by restricting the travel of americans and censoring anyone remotely connected to the USA.
  • easy enough to fix (Score:4, Insightful)

    by petes_PoV ( 912422 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @07:53PM (#22644106)
    Just go with a non-american ISP/domain name reistrar. It's not as if the US rules the planet, there are plenty of ways to continue working without their say-so or approval. Just move to a free locationa and continue with your legitimate business.
  • by spleen_blender ( 949762 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @07:54PM (#22644120)
    Alt: Thank goodness the economy can't survive without the internet anymore or else I would be hiding under my sheets. So at least for economic interests, some manner where worldwide instant communication will always be available. Thank goodness even moreso for encryption and darknets.
  • Re:Bullshit (Score:4, Insightful)

    by couchslug ( 175151 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @07:54PM (#22644124)
    The "screeching Cuban expats" are American VOTERS. Democracy works this way.

    Want a different policy? Organize like-minded people to VOTE appropriately.
  • by sjwest ( 948274 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @07:56PM (#22644148)
    No issues then, any european who trades with an american firm is asking for problems.
  • Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)

    by arivanov ( 12034 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @07:59PM (#22644190) Homepage
    Exactly. The only reason for the Castro brothers to outlive the fall of the iron curtain is the embargo. If the USA lifted the embargo in 1990 Cuba would have been a democracy by now. It would have taken a few million pounds transfers to "opposition" to make that happen like in Eastern Europe, but there would have been a result none the less. The embargo is the main reason why this has never happened and may never happen.

    IMO, we have missed the boat there. With people like Chavez waving suitcases of cash placing a few millions here and there is no longer effective. He can simply outbid the "West" and keep the Castro regime alive for a very long time.
  • by MacDork ( 560499 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:00PM (#22644196) Journal

    How many here would decry the Chinese and assorted third world countries for censorship of the internet, and yet, here we (in the US) act no differently.

    It sounds as thought the great firewall of America will be installed sooner or later. Apparently all it would take is a judge and software that has already been developed, tested, and deployed by American companies in China. Not that it's anything new... we've been censoring the internet for more than a decade now in the name of copyright with the 1997 NET Act. It appears the nationalist crowd has modded you flamebait early... maybe some sane meta-mods will take care of that.

  • wake up (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Scrameustache ( 459504 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:01PM (#22644222) Homepage Journal

    Are we truly free? Or is that just an illusion?
    the matrix has you
  • by corsec67 ( 627446 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:02PM (#22644228) Homepage Journal

    It's not as if the US rules the planet, there are plenty of ways to continue working without their say-so or approval. Just move to a free locationa and continue with your legitimate business.


    Bush and congress are trying to fix that. Welcome to Amerika; lets us make a copy of the data on your laptop, show us your papers, and watch what you say outside of a free-speech zone.
  • With great power.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by RenHoek ( 101570 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:03PM (#22644234) Homepage
    Undoubtably I'll be modded down to flamebait, but as a non-US citizen I get pretty tired of the US trying to be the 'policeman of the world' and at the same time pull these underhanded tricks.

    Another example [guardian.co.uk] I came upon today is how the White House was planning to overthrow the democratically chosen Hamas party, because it didn't stroke with their plans.

    What happened with "With great power comes great responsibility"? The US is just acting as the schoolyard bully.

    Note that I understand that "The US" != "all US citizens", but please, you're the only ones that can do something about this. So please do so.
  • by Cracked Pottery ( 947450 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:03PM (#22644240)
    We can trade out the ass with Red China, and cozy up to Uzbekistan, but Cuba, no es posible. Why? Because Cubans who fled Cuba after the revolution because they wanted their comfort and money more than they wanted to stay and fight, now control a lot more political power in America than they should. We can ask if Cuba really has it that bad. Its major export is educated people. Doctors, mostly. Can we acknowledge that maybe individual greed doesn't steer everything in the right direction all the time? Sure Cuba has poor folks. Do we care about poor folks in Cuba more than we care about the Americans that were left stranded in New Orleans after Katrina for political reasons? Not this year. The US has more people in prison than any other country in the world. Yes, and that is not by percentage. Cut the bullshit, we need to get over our sense of exceptionalism.
  • Re:And yet... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by tjstork ( 137384 ) <todd DOT bandrowsky AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:16PM (#22644352) Homepage Journal
    How many here would decry the Chinese and assorted third world countries for censorship of the internet, and yet, here we (in the US) act no differently. It makes me wonder how many things we just don't see, because the DNS entry doesn't even show up.

    In China, if you criticize the leaders of your country, you wind up either dead or in jail.

    In the USA, if you criticize the leaders of your country, you wind up rich.

    In China, there are no Koses, no Limbaughs, no Gores, no Moores, no one that criticizes the regime or calls for political change. In Iran, well, its illegal to even be jewish.

    So yeah, there are differences....
  • Re:And yet... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by techno-vampire ( 666512 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:17PM (#22644364) Homepage
    This has nothing to do with censorship. If he had registered his domain in Europe, there'd be no problem. Nobody would be trying to prevent people in America from viewing his site. Personally, I think it was stupid to embargo the domain, but let's not use the straw man of censorship to show our disapproval.
  • by EmbeddedJanitor ( 597831 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:25PM (#22644428)
    You'd hope USA would compare itself with the top end of the freedom scale, and not the bottom.

    http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=389&year=2007 USA 16th

    But do you really expect people to think freely if they've been spouting the pledge of allegence since they were 5?

  • Nope... you're being genuinely, unambiguously uneducated. But not sarcastic.

    Cuba trades with Canada, Europe, Cuba, Venezuela, Brazil... but an AMERICAN embargo will force them to change. Yeah. That's working well, after four decades of communism, tourism, cheap gas, and free technology.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:28PM (#22644464)
    >overthrow Hamas

    So you object to a government standing against terrorists?
  • by alx5000 ( 896642 ) <alx5000&alx5000,net> on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:36PM (#22644532) Homepage
    Yes, I see how the US is putting pressure on all the African countries with which they trade weapons, diamonds and oil...
  • by moderatorrater ( 1095745 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:44PM (#22644608)
    With all due respect, it's not censorship, it's a freezing of assets to help an embargo. From dictionary.com, a censor is:

    A person authorized to examine books, films, or other material and to remove or suppress what is considered morally, politically, or otherwise objectionable
    Censorship being what a censor does. Notice they didn't do anything to his actual site; they seized the domain that he was using which is purchased and maintained in the US. It's a reasonable assertion to say that a domain name is property (maybe rented property) that can be seized by a government official.

    Anyone doing business with Cuba knows about the embargo; it's possible he didn't realize that his registrar was an american company and that his domain could be seized, but that's not going to keep the law from going into effect.
  • by rossz ( 67331 ) <ogre&geekbiker,net> on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:44PM (#22644610) Journal
    This problem, like many others, can be fixed by one simple thing. FORCING OUR DAMN GOVERNMENT TO ABIDE BY THE CONSTITUTION.

    Our Constitution is quite possibly the greatest piece of law ever written in the history of mankind. Unfortunately, the politicians (both democrats and republicans) have decided it can be ignored at will. We need to change this. We need to force every aspect of the government to operate under the full strength of our Constitution.

    No more seizing property without due process.
    No more stifling free speech just because it might offend somebody.
    No more wiretaps of citizens and legal residents to fight terrorists without a court order signed by a REAL judge.
    No more government agencies that aren't sanctioned by the Constitution (list to long to put here).

    I am sicked by any politician who doesn't consider the Constitution the most sacred document in existence. Which means I'm sicked by ALL politicians.
  • Re:Pay Attention (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Naughty Bob ( 1004174 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:45PM (#22644624)
    That which passes for 'left wing' in the US is to the far right by the rest of humanity's standards. Try again, this time with perspective.
  • by vux984 ( 928602 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:49PM (#22644672)
    It's almost like we're kind of pissed at the Castro family for encouraging the Soviet Union to launch those nuclear missiles he had on his island.

    Yes, its almost like we're immature children who spitefully cling to their hatred long after the conflict is over and everyone else has grown up and gotten over it.

    Hell, we've even made peace with the country that actually designed, built, and deployed the missles to cuba. You know, the country that actually owned them and put them their with the express purpose of creating a threat? The country that the 'cold war' was actually with? We made peace with them. But apparently our rage for a dying old man whose island they were on... for him... our hatred is boundless.

    Grow up aready.

    Yes, -1 Not conforming with majority opinion

    No. -1 for being an immature and childish country.

    You know, because of that whole trying to murder tens of millions of us and all.

    You might want to check your history. The Soviets put missiles in Cuba in response to the fact that the USA put missiles in Turkey. Not that it stops their of course, the cold war was a series of moves and responses, but the point remains... Castro was a PAWN in a much bigger game of chess [er... global thermonuclear war] and his role and personal relevance was laughably minor.

  • by ubernostrum ( 219442 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:51PM (#22644688) Homepage

    To be fair, EU nations are also known to have laws censoring things their governments are uneasy about; see, for example, prosecutions of online auction sites by France and Germany, on grounds that those sites did not comply with laws banning the sale of Nazi memorabilia.

  • by Sloppy ( 14984 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:53PM (#22644704) Homepage Journal

    In light of this and the wikileaks thing, I think it's interesting that the best we can do to censor foreign websites, is mess with their DNS registrar. Long term, that is just not going to be a viable tactic. It's like wack-a-mole, except that after the first mole, the remaining moles are out of reach.

  • by hondo77 ( 324058 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:53PM (#22644708) Homepage
    No, it's called bullying. We bully Cuba because we can (and it appeases people in a state with a lot of electoral votes). We let China get away with human rights abuses because they're too big to bully. Wake up.
  • by Deadbolt ( 102078 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:54PM (#22644714)
    Another difference that you fail to mention is that we (the US) have been meddling in Cuba's affairs for damn near 100 years, including dozens of documented attempts to assassinate their head of state. For some reason, Cubans find this behavior objectionable, and the idea of seized assets dating before most of them were born being the justification for this conduct is laughable.

    God knows I'm not saying the Castros are happy little fuzzy angels who never did no wrong, but it's indisputable that they're a damn sight better than some of the thugs we happily deal with in the rest of the world. It's ridiculous and childish to blame everything on them, but it plays well in certain areas of south Florida which hold disproportionate power come election time.
  • by webmaster404 ( 1148909 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:54PM (#22644716)
    So which works better? Closing a country off from (what was once) the most free country in the world, or flooding the streets with American tourists who will tell the people about life in a free state. I think the latter would work much better, because it would be like if you grew up in say a prison cell you wouldn't know what life was like on the other side, however if you get thrown in prison its much worse and you want to get out of it. Believe it or not I am sure there are more Cubans who could change the government then government officials to keep it the way it is.
  • by Ardeaem ( 625311 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @08:55PM (#22644724)
    Give one example of an embargo working. You can't - they only end up hurting innocent people and isolating countries so change is slower.
  • by LingNoi ( 1066278 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @09:02PM (#22644786)
    The US government is afraid Americans who go there would turn communist.. This is all about Communism, that's why you're not allowed to go there, because you might be re-educated.
  • by CharlieG ( 34950 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @09:06PM (#22644814) Homepage
    The whole Cuban embargo thing has totally to do with Florida being a swing state. Been that way since the 1970s.
  • by SwashbucklingCowboy ( 727629 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @09:09PM (#22644838)
    Saudis are not significant voting block in an important state in Presidential elections, as Cubans are...
  • Re:And yet... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dbolger ( 161340 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @09:18PM (#22644918) Homepage
    In China, there are no Koses, no Limbaughs, no Gores, no Moores, no one that criticizes the regime or calls for political change. In Iran, well, its illegal to even be jewish

    A country should be judged on the basis of how much freedom its people have, not by the fact that there are people elsewhere who have it worse off.
  • by matushorvath ( 972424 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @09:19PM (#22644932)
    Why don't you do the "right thing" with North Korea as well? The Cuban embargo is plainly stupid, I just don't understand how anyone could not see it. You are effectively helping Castro to isolate the people in Cuba from the free world. The only thing they know about the free world is what Castro tells them. If they could meet real live US-ans on their family vacation in Cuba, they would at least be able to compare. If US businesses started operating in Cuba, Castro would have to be the bad guy who bans them, since otherwise his planned economy would quickly become irrelevant. As it is now, Castro can easily claim that the bad guys live in USA.
  • by jamstar7 ( 694492 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @09:21PM (#22644952)

    Well what about the billions in military aid given to Saudi Arabia, one of the most oppressive regimes in the world?. Cuba is Disney Land compared to Saudi Arabia. What about all that money going towards oppressing the Saudi people? Imagine some big democracy movement started in Saudi Arabia and tried to overthrow the dictatorship. The Saudi government would no doubt use all the weapons we have been selling them against their own people.

    You kidding me? If the Saudis ever had a popular revolution start up, the US would send everything we got to keep them propped up and in place.

  • by illegalcortex ( 1007791 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @09:22PM (#22644968)
    Yet another reason why .com/.net/.org (and the stupid newer ones) should be abolished and all domains should end in their country codes. There is no such thing as not being under the control of SOME countries laws.
  • by webmaster404 ( 1148909 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @09:23PM (#22644976)
    But if people want the government to be communist let them, they still need a majority vote. However I don't see them getting it anytime soon.
  • Embargo America (Score:4, Insightful)

    by LingNoi ( 1066278 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @09:26PM (#22645012)

    Why? Because the Castro government confiscated (read "stole") all property in Cuba that was owned by US private citizens and corporations and has not to this day compensated them for their losses.
    Why? Because the US government confiscated (read "stole") EU domain names in the US that was owned by EU private citizens and corporations and has not to this day compensated them for their losses.
  • to all of the americans here trashing their own government:

    if you as a cuban tried this in cuba, it is in the law of the land to arrest and jail you

    if you doubt that, i'm not going to be your google monkey: go to the massively neocon sources of amnesty international and human rights watch and tell me what they say about the law in cuba about saying bad things about the government

    so please, by all means, bash the us government: it's your right, you are respected as an american to bash your own government. just try to understand exactly what the real enemy is here. some people have a colossal lack of scale and perspective
  • Re:Bullshit (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Frosty Piss ( 770223 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @09:46PM (#22645160)

    The "screeching Cuban expats" are American VOTERS. Democracy works this way.
    A very small minority. Vocal, but a minority non-the-less.
  • by LilGuy ( 150110 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @09:49PM (#22645186)
    It's a bit ironic to say that Americans are the only bit of the free world when they're restricted from even traveling to Cuba. Yet Europeans are free to travel as they please.
  • No it isn't. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by akintayo ( 17599 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @10:19PM (#22645386)
    The ability to own other people.
    The lack of universal suffrage.
    The electoral college and variegated citizenship.
    The concept of equality and fairness.

    It is folly to assume a document written in the 1700's would be a very good fit for the 2000's.
  • No matter what the U.S. government says publicly regarding human rights, Cuba is embargoed for historical national security reasons. Whether those reasons are still valid is up for debate.
  • by sg_oneill ( 159032 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @11:14PM (#22645686)
    America appears to be the only country that seems to think its the only free country. It really isn't. Its not even in the top 10 or 20% of free countries, civil rights wise. With a higher percentage of its poplation imprisoned than anywhere else in the world, and one of the last 'free' countries left with a Death sentence, the USA is a human rights dinosaur.

    But it still attempts to tell the world how we should follow [i]their[/i] example. No thanks, I actually like my freedoms.
  • by compro01 ( 777531 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @11:26PM (#22645766)
    Fidel isn't, but Raul Castro is, and he's also mentioned by name in the Helms-Burton act.
  • by davidsyes ( 765062 ) * on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @11:27PM (#22645770) Homepage Journal
    WHEN is this country going to f*king LEARN!!!???? You DO NOT successfully, peacefully advance rogue countries by ostracising them. Even just recently, Cuba signed on to Human Rights covenants/laws now that Fidel Castro turned power over to his brother.

    There are "Americans" who have suffering relatives IN Cuba, (I believe there are permissions with limits on how much US citizens can send annually to Cuba), and it ought to be criminal to expect people to put on a uniform to potentially go and kill or threaten to kill relatives in OR outside the country.

    I think the US government and some wealthy are just royally pissed that Fidel, like Kim Jong-Il, didn't just 'vanish' or 'die". Castro outlived MULTIPLE US presidents... must be an embarrassment to the USA...
  • by Fjandr ( 66656 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @11:29PM (#22645796) Homepage Journal
    If that were the case, we wouldn't be trading with China either. It's about American political ego being used against a country where it doesn't hurt the US economy to do so. When it comes to trading with abusive countries with large economies or something else to offer, the US government conveniently looks the other way. We trade with other countries that are far more abusive than Cuba.

    Try again later with the "doing what's right" herring.
  • by rtb61 ( 674572 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @11:30PM (#22645802) Homepage
    Yes, but the reality is the Cuban embargo has nothing to do with politics, but has everything to do with Americans and American companies recovering the assets that they lost when the assets were nationalised. So the embargo will remain until the American organised crime families can get back the casinos that the Cubans people nationalised.

    So Cuban will not be accepted as a democracy by the US until, they turn themselves back into the working poor for American corporations. Of course whether the Cubans actually elect a leader or a military coup takes place establishing an autocracies, makes absolutely not the slightest bit of difference to the end of the embargo.

    All this does is highlight why other countries do not trust the current US administration with the central domain register, because as far as the current US administration is concerned, US corporate law is international law.

  • by Zeinfeld ( 263942 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @11:30PM (#22645804) Homepage
    Give one example of an embargo working. You can't - they only end up hurting innocent people and isolating countries so change is slower.

    The South African Apartheid regime collapsed due to pressure from sanctions. But the reasons were psychological, not economic. The regime saw itself as an unacknowledged part of the West, the rejection had real and visible effect. Once it became clear that the US was also on the brink of rejecting it, the regime crumbled.

    The Cuban situation is exactly the reverse, the only thing keeping Castro in power was the fact that he had successfully stood up to the US when it had acted as a big bully.

    The human rights issue is not likely to be very effective when the US is running the best known gulag and torture house on the island.

    This is a case where trade can have a positive effect and every policy maker in DC knows it, even the Republicans. The only reason that the embargo is kept in place is to pander to the Cuban vote in Florida.

    Thats the way ethnic politics are played in the US. While mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani would attack terrorism over lunch in Brooklyn, then head off for dinner to give a 'humanitarian award' to the leader of the terrorist group that has caused by far the most deaths in Europe. Different constituencies, different positions. I don't think he was pro-Israel or pro-IRA, he just wanted the votes and would do anything it took to get them.

    The people the politicians pander to are your usual expatriate irredentists, they can afford to refuse all compromise, they don't live with the consequences.

  • by Steve Franklin ( 142698 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @11:31PM (#22645812) Homepage Journal
    So what exactly is the difference between Cuba and China? Oh, that's right! China makes cheap shit for Walmart. And they support American corporations, which is what you right-wing loonies really mean when you talk about "spreading democracy." That is, spreading corporate influence around the globe. That's Cuba's real crime. They won't let the American corporations back in. Does anybody not understand this?
  • by Zeinfeld ( 263942 ) on Tuesday March 04, 2008 @11:53PM (#22645938) Homepage
    The bill actually names Fidel and Raul Castro, but it isn't actually that significant as it is arguably unconstitutional and there is little that a Democratic Congress is likely to do to complain about lack of enforcement of a bill they tried to filibuster. In addition the President can sign a waiver which Clinton did.

    Given the current state of the GOP it is hard to see them managing to pose a serious obstacle. Their main objective in November is going to be to deny the Democrats a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.

    Take a look at the turnout in the Democratic primaries versus the GOP ones. The Democrats were getting twice the turnout in deep red states when both races were still competitive. It has since increased substantially. It looks like the post-Bush political realignment may be even greater than the post-Nixon realignment. Bush has smashed up the Republican party.

  • by The One and Only ( 691315 ) * <[ten.hclewlihp] [ta] [lihp]> on Wednesday March 05, 2008 @01:12AM (#22646364) Homepage

    Now instead of childishly insisting that they're Terrorists and therefore not worth acknowledging, it might be smart to admit their legitimacy in the eyes of their own people and find some way to coexist without killing each other.

    Loath as I am to point this out, there was another fringe political party not unlike Hamas that won parliamentary elections in Germany a few decades back, and instead of finding a way to peacefully coexist with them we defeated them in war and tried the leaders for their war crimes. Democratically elected government or not, launching rockets into residential neighborhoods to kill people is terrorism, and the people who commit terrorism are terrorists.

  • by shermozle ( 126249 ) on Wednesday March 05, 2008 @01:18AM (#22646378) Homepage

    Our Constitution is quite possibly the greatest piece of law ever written in the history of mankind.
    Oh FFS get over yourselves America. Your constitution isn't some kind of sacred document. It's a law, and should be changed when it's necessary.

    If it's such a great piece of law, how come so much of it can be interpreted so many different ways? Like that bit about guns.
  • Re:And yet... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by tftp ( 111690 ) on Wednesday March 05, 2008 @01:42AM (#22646494) Homepage
    If you want to blame anybody blame JFK.

    JFK was personally involved with Cuba, bullets were fired and missiles were moved back and forth. I can understand his actions, they were related to contemporary events. However JFK is dead for quite some time, as well as some of Presidents who followed him. Mistreating Cuba for half a century is no more reasonable as whipping your dog daily, for 20 years, for him chewing your shoe when he was a puppy.

  • by shutdown -p now ( 807394 ) on Wednesday March 05, 2008 @03:16AM (#22646854) Journal

    No one wants a communist bastille in our backyard.
    This might have been a valid argument when the USSR was still going (and even then there's ample evidence that Castro has turned to the USSR only because of initial ill-will from US). But it's pointless for the last, what, 15 years?
  • by mpe ( 36238 ) on Wednesday March 05, 2008 @03:49AM (#22646964)
    The US government is afraid Americans who go there would turn communist.. This is all about Communism, that's why you're not allowed to go there, because you might be re-educated.

    Most likely the fear isn't that Americans would turn Communist, but that seeing Cuba as it actually is would undo over half a century of US propaganda about Communism. They might even start questioning other things the US Government claims. Which would be very bad news indeed for past and present members of Congress, the White House, the CIA, NSA, etc, etc.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 05, 2008 @03:59AM (#22647006)
    And that's only the theoretical freedom score. In reality the US press has a lot less freedom, because the owners of the newspapers are too afraid to lose potential ad revenue.
  • by Antique Geekmeister ( 740220 ) on Wednesday March 05, 2008 @04:04AM (#22647028)
    And our gulag is in Cuba, too! Right across the no-man's land at Guantanamo Bay! That's an amazingly good example for the Cubans of how seriously we take human rights and due process.
  • by Antique Geekmeister ( 740220 ) on Wednesday March 05, 2008 @04:30AM (#22647112)
    The USA has *never* been the most free country in the world. Never. From our acceptance of slavery at the time of the Declaration of Independence, to our Civil War and unconstititional subjugation of the southern states when they legally attempted to secede, to our legalized segregation of blacks, to our imprisonment of the Japanese-Americans during World War II, to our drug wars on alcohol and marijuana, to our re-activated use of secret prisons and wiretaping without warrants and torture without trial, we have *never* been the most free.

    We do keep trying, and we're a big step up from most of the world. But we're not there yet, and this administration has certainly hurt us.
  • And it's what's necessary and just to put pressure on Cuba to stop being a vicious dictatorship and actually respect its citizens' human rights. I'm not being sarcastic.

    Errrmmm... There's one place that human rights are not respected on Cuba. It's called 'Guantanamo Bay [wikipedia.org]'.

  • by ultranova ( 717540 ) on Wednesday March 05, 2008 @05:22AM (#22647264)

    Those that beckon to strengthen the Cuban economy are perceived by the US as ignorant dupes, serving to undermine the security of the United States. And it has been perceived that way for the last 40 years (so people don't think this is a Bush-ism). By in large, those that are in a hurry to open trade with Cuba are usually completely lost as to what it means to national security.

    Does the strenght of Cuban economy actually matter ? There is no way Cuba is going to launch a succesfull invasion on the US on its own, no matter how strong its economy; and if it is used as a stronghold by another power, it again doesn't matter.

    If anything, having ties of trade to the US would make Cuba less likely to allow another country to attack its trading partner through it...

  • by Ihlosi ( 895663 ) on Wednesday March 05, 2008 @10:16AM (#22648844)
    Both China and Cuba are communist countries ruled by an oppressive government, they both had or have the firepower and capabilities (direct as in Cuba or with subs, boats or airplanes as China) at some point to reach the US with nuclear weapons.

    Cuba had as much capability to reach the US with nuclear weapons as Germany (or Turkey, for that matter) had to reach the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons - none. Any nuclear weapons on these nations territory were not under the control of their respective leaders, but firmly under the control of the superpower that stationed them there. And any attempt at gaining control of these weapons would, quite likely, have led to them being used on that nation.

    Sorry. Superpowers don't hand out nukes to their allies, with maybe, just maybe, one exception (though the country in question has probably developed its own nukes by now. Yes, it's one of those countries that "probably" has nukes. I'll leave it up to you to guess which one it is.)

Ya'll hear about the geometer who went to the beach to catch some rays and became a tangent ?

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