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Education Government The Internet Politics

Jimmy Wales Says Students 'Should Use' Wikipedia 345

An anonymous reader writes "The BBC has up an article chatting with Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales. Wales views the Wikipedia site as an educational resource, and apparently thinks teachers who downplay the site are 'bad educators'. '[A] perceived lack of authority ... has drawn criticism from other information sources. Ian Allgar of Encyclopedia Britannica maintains that, with 239 years of history and rigorous fact-checking procedures, Britannica should remain a leader in authoritative, politically-neutral information. Mr Allgar pointed out the trustworthy nature of paid-for, thoroughly-reviewed content, and noted that Wikipedia is still prone to vandalism.'"
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Jimmy Wales Says Students 'Should Use' Wikipedia

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  • by 7-Vodka ( 195504 ) on Saturday December 08, 2007 @03:09AM (#21622053) Journal

    It used to be Free and open.

    Now it has secret overlords and secret mailing lists.

    Anyone notice lately less and less pages can be edited?

    How long until the same people who puppet the US mainstream media have total control?
    Without TOTAL transparency wikipedia is nothing but a half-rotten corpse.

  • by ta bu shi da yu ( 687699 ) * on Saturday December 08, 2007 @03:15AM (#21622077) Homepage
    The BBC says that "Mr Allgar pointed out the trustworthy nature of paid-for, thoroughly-reviewed content, and noted that Wikipedia is still prone to vandalism ... but Britannica and Wikipedia should not be seen as direct competitors. Wikipedia, he said, had made the use of encyclopaedias "trendy and popular" with young people, which could only benefit Britannica's subscription-led service."

    That's a new tack! This has basically been the same thing that the WMF has been saying for years now [wikimedia.org] ("Wikipedia, and all Wikimedia Foundation projects, are not in competition to EBI or other companies in the business of reference works. Our goals differ significantly from other reference publishers, and only overlap in that we are all striving to create accurate and useful knowledge tools.")

    Is this a turning point in relations between the two projects? Are we going to see an end to the stupidity of Robert McHenry style "toilet" comparisons?
  • by Z00L00K ( 682162 ) on Saturday December 08, 2007 @03:22AM (#21622105) Homepage Journal
    It's possible to cite Wikipedia, but one thing as a student is that you must learn how to be critical of your sources. If Wikipedia is one source among others it's one thing but as any sole source of information it may be utterly wrong. No dictionary is free of errors.

    It also depends on your point of view if you think that some information is correct or not.

    And don't forget - Wikipedia may actually contain original information from time to time and that's worth to consider. Just because some abuses the tool doesn't mean that the tool is useless. On the contrary - it means that the tool is actually useful enough to draw the interest of abusers. The only catch is to identify the abusers.

  • Re:Institutions (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Entropius ( 188861 ) on Saturday December 08, 2007 @04:03AM (#21622255)
    As someone who tutors undergrads, I concur: a lot of the texts suck. :)

    And, yes, while the Feynman Lectures were intended for undergrads, a whole lot of people use them to study for PhD quals.

    Quantum physics makes a great deal of sense in the only way that physical theories can: it explains our observations, to an uncanny level. *Why* it should be this way we don't really know. Quantum mechanics really isn't terribly counterintuitive; it's just *different* than the rules that govern large collections of matter. Those rules -- macroscopic mechanics, classical electromagnetism, and so on -- are just what happens when you look at the limit of quantum mechanics when a great many particles act together.
  • by Sycraft-fu ( 314770 ) on Saturday December 08, 2007 @04:22AM (#21622319)
    "Every fact on Wikipedia has a link back to the primary source."

    Have you ever actually read Wikipedia? Is there a different one I'm not aware of? That statement is wrong in two major ways:

    1) Many things do NOT have links. You can find whole articles full of nothing but [citation needed] or ones without even that. Many things have links to sources, however many don't. As such while it can potentially be useful for background research, it isn't like a scholarly paper where you are guaranteed a list of works cited. Maybe you get that, maybe you don't.

    2) Equally important many of the sources are not primary and often no good. I can link to a page saying anything I wanted. If I wanted I could just make some shit up, post it on my own website, and link to it. Bam, there's a source. However that doesn't mean the source is any good or that the information is true. A reference to a source is only good if the source is accurate, and really to be useful it needs to be to a primary source (meaning for statistics from research you don't link to an article discussing someone's research, you link to the research itself).

    Wikipedia really isn't a good starting point for a scholarly paper unless you know nothing about the topic and are looking for general background. A search through a good library collection is going to get you far more useful starting points, and the works cited from those will continue it. With Wikipedia it's a crap shoot. Maybe you get a good article, edited by experts, with proper citations that will lead you to material you can use. Maybe you get a page written by an idiot, that links to misinformation.
  • by NewbieProgrammerMan ( 558327 ) on Saturday December 08, 2007 @04:49AM (#21622395)

    As an academic resource, it is nonciteable and nontrustable, due to the volatile nature and anonymous content.
    I can't speak for all "academic" topics, but I find Wikipedia to be extremely reliable on the math topics I've looked up there. Sometimes the Wikipedia article does a better job of explaining a topic than the textbook for which I shelled out $125. Maybe that's a bizarre anomaly caused by a small number of math geeks taking the time to make the articles useful and correct, though. Is it really so unreliable for other topics?
  • by cattywhumpus ( 1098231 ) on Saturday December 08, 2007 @05:12AM (#21622463)
    Stuff and nonsense. Tests have shown that Wikipedia is about as reliable as the Brittanica. I myself found multiple errors in the edition of EB I owned, including a spectacularly misidentified orchid genus in a photograph. Wikipedia gets it accuracy by a completely different method than a conventional enecyclopedia, but it works and apparently works about as well. This is something that the Brittanica and others simply can't get their heads around and it leads them to some very silly statements. Now please note neither an encyclopedia or Wikipedia is considered an authorative source for serious (ie, grown-up) research. They are both however good at getting you oriented and giving you places to start. My EB? Went to Goodwill long ago. I can get far more current, and more accurate, information off the web (not from Wikipedia) -- provided of course I exercise a little critical analysis.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 08, 2007 @05:59AM (#21622617)
    "...All you have to do is tell kids to look up the fact from the primary source and cite that, and obviously not to cite it if there is no link back or they can't find the material..."

    Wikipedia vandalism by the elite assessors with their secret mailing lists now comprises cutting out all reference to anything they don't approve of. So this advice will leave you (in some cases) with a biased and one-sided view of a subject.

    Luckilly, the Illuminatii who control access to this knowledge all seem to be American. So if you look at a non-American topic it will probably be undefiled. Anything the Americans have an interest in, however, will be presented in a biased way.

    So what the teachers should be saying is:

      - Don't use it for American politics.
      - When you use it for technical issues, ignore references to the long list of Americans who are claimed to have invented whatever it is.
      - Don't use it for American history.
      - It's probably ok for Geography and Maths, but don't expect decent coverage of any non-American place
      - Don't use it for any reference to records or extreme human endeavor - non-American instances will be ignored
      - .....
      -
  • Peer review (Score:4, Interesting)

    by McDutchie ( 151611 ) on Saturday December 08, 2007 @06:07AM (#21622641) Homepage

    It's not peer reviewed.
    I'm sorry.. what? Wikipedia isn't peer reviewed?

    You're kidding... right?

    Just in case you're not, you might want to read about peer review [wikipedia.org] (at Wikipedia, of all places) as you don't seem to have a clue what it is...

    Wikipedia can misappropriate the term "peer review" for itself all it wants, but that doesn't make it peer reviewed.

  • by ThePromenader ( 878501 ) on Saturday December 08, 2007 @06:19AM (#21622689) Homepage Journal
    I concur. Wikipedia does have a set of rules and guidelines, but whether an article actually adheres to the same is indeed a crapshoot whose winning odds decline with the article's contributor popularity. Technology and science-oriented articles seem to be the best of the lot, but the quality declines towards more "human" topics such as history and cities; these tend to be biased through selective fact, or read like a fan/tourist brochure. Worse still, those with a strong but minority point of view can "squat" a lesser-frequented article to make sure that it relates only their own vision of things.

    What Wiki lacks is refinement. An imposed authoritarian review of all contributions would kill the encyclopaedia, but there is no reason not to create a second "college level" crew of Wikipedians whose role would be verifying the factual accuracy/objectivity/style of their articles.
  • by 3seas ( 184403 ) on Saturday December 08, 2007 @06:42AM (#21622767) Homepage Journal
    Someone started an article on me. It was wrong but stayed for over a year I think.

    I found it and added some references to information that others might see past the usenet troll and flamer bias that was indirectly referenced in the article.
    I then started up another article to further clarify the subject matter for which the bias in the article on myself was centered around.

    It went up for deletion and realizing the negativity bias of Wikipedia I called upon the usenet trolls and flamers against me to contribute to the discussion with the bias of removing both articles.
    Both articles were deleted. I'd decided I'd rather not be mentioned, nor do I need such unfairly biased publicity by being listed in Wikipedia.

    I recently discovered even more unfair bias towards someone who is no longer alive to defend themselves. The article contains half truths and outright lies.
    This persons certainly has more public status than I, but I will not mention who they are but rather collect up references not found on the internet that expose the unfair bias of wikipedia and share it with real people in real time, so that they can see how cleverly corrupt wikipedia really is.

    Wikipedia is built upon hearsay, upon what they call as "references". That's its rules and done so in order to remove RESPONSIBILITY. Put the blame on the reference,
    and we all know how much crap is on the internet. This is where the references must be found and be kinda be accessible, as wikipedia does not verify all references regularly and many become broken.
    They pick and chose which things they reference off the internet and tend to bias on the negative by the weakness of facts the nature of the machine the internet is and likewise wikipedia is.

    So they find the opinions of others written somewhere on the internet and they have their references. Hearsay is not allowed in court, facts are.

    Wikipedia is not based on facts, its based on hearsay and THEY DO NOT HAVE THE PROPER RESOURCES TO DO UNBIASED RESEARCH and they never will.

    I expect Wikipedia to be very capable of writing the next bible.

    Wikipedia needs a "in your face" disclaimer on every article and every page.

       
  • by nugneant ( 553683 ) on Saturday December 08, 2007 @09:44AM (#21623479) Journal
    I'd still wager that the quality of the writing is still better than the average disjointed Wikipedia article, regardless of which contains more raw information.

  • Re:rubish... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by owlnation ( 858981 ) on Saturday December 08, 2007 @10:35AM (#21623743)

    I'm sorry.. what? Wikipedia isn't peer reviewed?
    Peer review is pointless where cabals control information. Expert peers may disagree with the accuracy of info, but so what, if a cabal is making sure it stays inaccurate to further its own ends. This happens on Wikipedia. Which is why it must never be trusted.
  • My problem with using Wikipedia in a grade-to-middle school setting is that there are plenty of article for which there is gratuitously inappropriate content for the article. I was trying to help my 6th grader learn about a topic, and went to an article about Stereoscopy, and one of the example images was a turn-of-the-last-century stereoscopic picture of a nude woman. Now while I'm not a prude, and have no problem with him seeing it (it was very tame,) it means that he would be in deep trouble if he opened that article at school. There were plenty of other examples that didn't require nudity.

    I can fully understand the use of "questionable" content in articles ABOUT the "questionable" thing. (For example, the use of the f-word in articles about rappers as direct quotations from the rapper, or the use of a photo of a topless woman in the article on "breasts"; although there do seem to be so many in that article as to be gratuitous.) But in an article on stereoscopy? The picture belonged in an article on "turn of the 19-20-th century erotica", and if it was a prevalent use of stereoscopy, then maybe a MENTION in the stereoscopy article, but not an example. For example, the article on the VHS/Beta video format war mentions porn, but it doesn't have any screenshots of said porn.

"I've seen it. It's rubbish." -- Marvin the Paranoid Android

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