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US Official Urges Americans To Reconsider Privacy 515

Privacy no longer can mean anonymity, says Donald Kerr, a deputy director of national intelligence. Instead, it should mean that government and businesses properly safeguards people's private communications and financial information. "Protecting anonymity isn't a fight that can be won. Anyone that's typed in their name on Google understands that," said Kerr. Kurt Opsahl of the EFF said Kerr ignores the distinction between sacrificing protection from an intrusive government and voluntarily disclosing information in exchange for a service. "There is something fundamentally different from the government having information about you than private parties. We shouldn't have to give people the choice between taking advantage of modern communication tools and sacrificing their privacy." Kerr's comments come as Congress is taking a second look at the Foreign Surveillance Intelligence Act, requiring a court order for surveillance on U.S. soil. The White House argued that the law was obstructing intelligence gathering.
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US Official Urges Americans To Reconsider Privacy

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  • by Stanislav_J ( 947290 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:00PM (#21315997)

    "There is something fundamentally different from the government having information about you than private parties."

    The difference being that while I trust no one, I trust the government with the information even less, because they have the power to screw me over to such a greater degree.

  • by Dutchmaan ( 442553 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:01PM (#21316003) Homepage
    "Privacy no longer can mean anonymity, says Donald Kerr, the principal deputy director of national intelligence. Instead, it should mean that government and businesses properly safeguard people's private communications and financial information."

    Yes, lets 'redfine' privacy to mean "we know what you do, we will just be responsible with the information"

  • by davidwr ( 791652 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:09PM (#21316051) Homepage Journal
    Next Spring, almost every state will have political caucuses and conventions which will set the state parties' platforms.

    Attend your local caucus or convention and try to get elected as a delegate to the state convention.

    Introduce resolutions that value freedom and privacy. Lobby to get them passed.

    Send a message to Washington: Privacy is important. Anonymity is an essential part of privacy.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:12PM (#21316081)
    The 4th ammendment says: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated [...]". I think the attempt is to narrowly define "secure", here. If someone can unreasonably search all your papers, effects, etc., *but* that does not give you reasonable cause to feel "insecure", is that a 4th ammendment violation? There's rhetorical ground to be muddied, somewhere between "privacy" and "security". Now, I myself consider it inherently unreasonable for a citizen to accept government guarentees of security at face value, but that seem to be the arguement that's being put forward here.
  • by sqrt(2) ( 786011 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:12PM (#21316083) Journal

    The White House argued that the law was obstructing intelligence gathering.
    Of course it is! That's entirely the point. It's not supposed to be easy for the government to carry out espionage on its own soil. In the course of an investigation there will be a lot of information, records, conversations, and correspondence between the persons being investigated and regular citizens. When you do your espianage on American soil, the bystanders are AMERICAN CITIZENS, protected from being spied on. It should be very difficult for the government to do those types of activities. Just because the white house thinks they need a blank check to do what ever they want in the name of security doesn't mean we should give it to them.

    Also, about googling your own name; I just did that and although there were over 1.5 million results, none of them were about me as far as I could tell :(
    I guess I should be relieved, although I'm kind of disappointed that I'm not important enough to have my privacy violated.
  • by OeLeWaPpErKe ( 412765 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:13PM (#21316097) Homepage
    A detailed search on google will reveal WAY too much info on people. Certainly more than you'd want released to just anyone.

    More than this ... laws will not change this fact ... this sucks. If google can build databases of people le, why can't the US govt ? At least US govt has this freedom of info act. Google obeys only the laws they truly have to.

    Outlawing google also seems like a stupid thing to do.

    He just makes the point that we can't have it both ways. We can't have a searchable internet and the privacy standards of 1960. It just doesn't compute.
  • Barry (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pilsner.urquell ( 734632 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:15PM (#21316105)
    Privacy no longer can mean anonymity.
    -- Donald Kerr

    A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away.
    -- Barry Goldwater

  • by NeverVotedBush ( 1041088 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:17PM (#21316125)
    And the penalties for it.

    The Bush administration has shit all over the Constitution and this country. They have committed treason.
  • by gweihir ( 88907 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:21PM (#21316153)
    Yes, there is something fundamentally different: After they take away your rights and screw you over, they can get themselves immunity. Private businesses generally cannot do that.

    This guy is basically advertising a surveilance state, were everybody has to trust the government without reserve. Not a good idea. Historically that has always lead to a catastrophy. Unfortunately there will not be any allied armies to free the US population. I advise to stop this now with all possible legal means. A free society has to live with a real risk of terrorism. That is what makes it free: People have the freedom to go bad. If you remove that freedom, you cause much, much more damage that terrorists ever could do directly. All this "war on terror" is really a power-grap in disguise by power-hungry people without even a shred of ethics. You do not want to be ruled by this type of evil.

     
  • by postbigbang ( 761081 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:21PM (#21316157)
    On the New Hampshire auto license plates reads one of my favorite sayings: Live Free, or Die. This man would rather capitulate, and is therefore lost.

    We will struggle, those that believe in liberty and freedom, against the tides that would try to drown us with rationalisms, excuses, and the madness of fealty to the corrupt and mindless sycophants of government.

    There was a reason the founding fathers worded their documents they way that they did-- there was another King George that tried to shove fealty down our throats. This minor duke in his administration would have us believe that liberty and freedom != anonymity. He is wrong.

  • by schwaang ( 667808 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:22PM (#21316161)
    FTA:

    Kerr said at an October intelligence conference in San Antonio that he finds concerns that the government may be listening in odd when people are ``perfectly willing for a green-card holder at an (Internet service provider) who may or may have not have been an illegal entrant to the United States to handle their data.''


    Really, I don't need to read beyond this. Does the US have a privacy problem with personal data held by corporations without regulation? Yes. Does the US have a privacy problem with novel government surveillance methods without (serious) oversight? Hell Yes. Can one be used to excuse the other in any way shape or form? Hell no!

    This guy should not be the standard bearer for the dialog that the US needs to have over privacy in the age of information technology.
  • ...and? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by jo42 ( 227475 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:24PM (#21316173) Homepage
    If I change my name to "John Doe"?
  • security? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by rev_sanchez ( 691443 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:24PM (#21316177)
    Bad terrorists kill thousands. Bad government kill millions. Their fear mongering and our cowardice are poisoning our nation's leadership.
  • by dgatwood ( 11270 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:28PM (#21316205) Homepage Journal

    Indeed, that pretty much constitutes the definition of "trust". You share secrets with people you trust. What these political trolls are asking us to do is trust the government---yet on nearly every occasion in the past, they have proven utterly unworthy of that trust. Hell, they can't even keep computers from walking away from Lawrence Livermore National Labs. If we can't even trust them to keep their own nuclear secrets safe, how can we possibly be expected to trust them to keep our private information safe?

    This is literally the epitome of the phrase "wolf guarding the henhouse". The entire purpose of large parts of our Bill of Rights is to protect the citizens from our own government---to ensure that the government cannot do precisely what this person is asking us to let it do.

    So my question to anyone seriously considering his statement is this: What ever happened to "I... will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States"? Are those mere words, or do they mean something? Because if we give in to this tyranny, we are saying that those are mere words---that the spirit of the U.S. Constitution, of the Bill of Rights---indeed, the spirit of America---is nothing more than a statement of naive ideals to be respected only when it is convenient.

    No, this is not the time to cave in. Indeed, it is when we are most threatened that we must most firmly cling to our principles. It is easy to do the right thing when it is convenient; only the truly good continue to do good when it is hard. It is time that we as a nation stand up and tell the world, "This is what we believe. This is who we are as a nation." Are we going to be a nation of fear? Are we going to be a nation of paranoia, not trusting our neighbors and telling the government every time they sneeze in the interests of protecting ourselves? Are we going to be a nation of terrified little children who cower in our beds out of fear that the big bad terrorist boogeyman will get us? Or are we going to be a proud nation standing strong as a beacon of freedom and light to a darkened world?

    A time of great tribulation is upon us. Everyone must choose a side. Will you choose the side of right---of freedom---or the side of wrong---of tyranny, oppression, and fear? Only you can decide. As for me, I choose the side of truth. To Mr. Kerr, I'm sorry if the Bill of Rights and the Constitution are inconvenient for you, but maybe, just maybe, that is because you're doing something you shouldn't be doing in the first place. If you can't see that, I pity you.

  • by NeverVotedBush ( 1041088 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:35PM (#21316265)
    "so this kind of thing only works to screw with American citizens and accomplishes nothing of significance"

    And this is news? America's biggest enemy is definitely within. It is lack of education and an easily terrified populace that can be manipulated with a few "support our troops" and "with us or agin' us" slogans.

    I think Osama bin Laden hit the jackpot with his 9/11 attack. He spent some 19 lives and a few tens of thousands of dollars and in return, he, through the current moronic, paranoid, and opportunistic administration, has thoroughly destroyed what used to be the most powerful and respected Nation on earth.
  • The real trick (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Mi5ke561 ( 1002900 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:36PM (#21316269)
    What this guy Kerr and the rest of the Bush Regime and it's merry henchmen haven't figured out yet is that the real trick is to protect a free society without interfering with it's ability to function as one. This guy fits Mr. Justice Brandeis observation that the real encroachments on liberty come, "from men of zeal, but without understanding." This guy fits that cookie cutter perfectly-- his reach exceeds his grasp. And because that's common in government, they're fast becoming a bigger threat to the ordinary citizen than the often notional terrorists are.
  • by NormalVisual ( 565491 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:39PM (#21316287)
    And they're much less accountable for it, too.
  • by Infonaut ( 96956 ) <infonaut@gmail.com> on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:44PM (#21316321) Homepage Journal

    If the government wants to change what privacy means to THEM, they need a constitutional amendment.

    The "right of privacy" is a judicial construct. I'm not saying that it is a bad construct, but you'll never see the word "privacy" in the Constitution. In interpreting the 4th Amendment, the Supreme Court has constructed a Constitutional protection of privacy. Maybe the definition of "activist judges" depends on where you sit. Anyway, the courts have acknowledged that this is an implicit, rather than explicit right.

    Legislative acts have also defined privacy in their own ways, but the term "privacy" is a difficult one to define with precision when we're dealing with electronic communications. If the limits of privacy are no longer defined by your physical presence, how far does your right to privacy extend? With so much of our lives being lived online, would excessive provisions for privacy actually extend the doctrine further than it was originally intended?

    Another question: We place our trust in Google every time we use its services, but why do we place more trust in a profit-maximizing enterprise than in our own government? Ostensibly we can hold our government accountable through elections, but we have less influence on corporations. Sure, we have the power of the wallet, but when's the last time you saw an effective consumer boycott in the information economy?

  • by mr_josh ( 1001605 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:44PM (#21316333)
    ...the clamps start getting put in place. They turn the screws a thread at a time, make lots of fuzzy statements like "Protecting anonymity isn't a fight that can be won." The fight is lost. There is no fight. Submit. Submit.
  • by falconwolf ( 725481 ) <falconsoaring_2000 AT yahoo DOT com> on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:44PM (#21316339)

    If you believe you can have privacy, security and anonyminity you are wrong. You might get any two of those. Maybe.

    Privacy and anonymity are essentially the same thing. A USSC ruling even stated this in the early 1800s. If a person couldn't reasonable expect to keep their privacy then freedom of political speech didn't mean anything. Without remaining anonymous people wouldn't be willing to talk openly about politics for fear what they say can be used against them. I think the appropriate third word is "cheap" though "fast" is good too.

    Falcon
  • by CranberryKing ( 776846 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:50PM (#21316387)
    Someone needs to inform these people that [their idea of] security is not the end all. They seem to act as if anything that is in the way of security has to be removed. Difficult to gather intelligence? Sorry. Tough shit. That's unfortunate but you'll have to work with it because we aren't giving up our liberties. I wish I could change everything that makes my job tough to suit my job first but that's not why I'm there.

    I must add, that I think they're lying anyway. They will use that excuse to get greater control and a lot of feeble minds right now are bowing to the security threat bs. Grow a backbone already and tell these clowns to get stuffed.
  • by postbigbang ( 761081 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:58PM (#21316443)
    Today is November 11, the traditional Veteran's Day. Let me tell you of my ancestors, who didn't capitulate, and were POWs, were killed, shot down over Europe or the Pacific; these ancestors understanood what they were fighting for- going all the way back to 1779 in Pennsylvania, fighting Tories. Or let me tell you about the regiments that went south of the Ohio to enforce the Emancipation Proclamation. Perhaps my late grandfather, who was an adjutant in WWI could've told you about liberty, or an uncle that went to Europe in WWII, despite his debilitating polio. Or an other uncle that had most of his stomach blown away with ack-ack flak. Both of them savor(ed) their liberty, and both were willing to without hesitation, and die for it. Another uncle did.

    Let me tell you about the other heros that also protested the Viet Nam War for the travesty it had become as others were conscripted (and enslaved) to fight. Or perhaps those that looked with incredulity at the hoaxed evidence of 'WMD' in Iraq-- knowing that many thousands of soldier lives would be lost in vain, not to mention Afgani and Iraqi lives-- and the lives of US allies.

    Let me tell you about having principles, not a squishy bowl of jelly for guts in the face of those that would compromise liberty, civil rights, and freedom with responsibility for these.

    Many people have, and will understand the value of liberty, once lost. Should you wish subjugation, sit still and don't do anything.
  • by smittyoneeach ( 243267 ) * on Sunday November 11, 2007 @05:59PM (#21316449) Homepage Journal
    Maybe we can invite a Brit to weigh in on whether or not it's irony, but what fascinates me is that many of the same people who cry the loudest about the Bush Administration's actions are also the ones going on about the need for social welfare programs and universal health care.
    Look: either the government pervades your life, or it does not.
    The debate is healthy, though. Perhaps it will lead to clearer rules of engagement on security and privacy. If you're tasked with ensuring security, you really want clear ROE, so that the next time Mr. Extremist makes history, you can say: "Well, that sucked, but that was the way the public wanted to manage the probabilities."
  • by Chaos Motor ( 974072 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @06:03PM (#21316467)
    Instead of "redefining" privacy to mean "we know your private data, but we'll be responsible with it", how about we re-institute actual privacy? Instead of giving our personal information to companies who lose it or sell it or share it, how about we the people guard our own data? Instead of keeping it on their computers, let's keep it on our own.

    In my opinion, software as a service and registration based software are two of the biggest perpetrators of data and privacy violations. They take away your right to manage who knows what about you, forcing you to provide whatever data the "service provider" chooses or dictates that they "need".

    1) Make it illegal to force consumers to turn over private information unless it's a functional requirement of the process (not just data mining or marketing enhancement)

    2) Make it illegal for companies to sell or share ANY personally identifiable data they collect, even names, phone numbers, and addresses.

    3) Dismantle companies that violate privacy laws, retain identifiable customer data, or insist on data that is not a necessity to do business.

    It's pretty simple! You own YOUR OWN data. No one else has a right to it. No one can force you to turn it over to do business with them unless it's a functional necessity of doing business and not just a preference. Anyone that violates privacy laws is dismantled.

    BUT! BUT! It won't happen, because we live in a fascist corporate pathocracy where companies and money rule politics, the individual citizen, nay citizens period, are not considered, asked, or involved in any decisions, and THE GOVERNMENT WANTS YOUR DATA ALSO. So they can spy on you. It's all to protect YOU from the "terrists" you know.

    Nevermind the true terrorists are OUR OWN GOVERNMENT.

    Vague "terrorist threats", data mining, advertising, marketing, and "revenue enhancement" ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE REASONS TO DISMANTLE PRIVACY. Money and fear are NEVER reasons to willingly accept oppression or subordination.

    Fight for your rights, America. Our rights aren't what some company claims they will recognize, or what our government claims they will 'allow'. These are inherent to our existence, and they are for US to decide, not someone else. Fight for your rights! Wake up before it's too late.
  • Without Anonymity (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Nom du Keyboard ( 633989 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @06:18PM (#21316557)
    Without anonymity the small voice with be Bitch SLAPPed into silence!
  • by Tom ( 822 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @06:20PM (#21316571) Homepage Journal

    The Bush administration has shit all over the Constitution and this country. They have committed treason.
    That's not what scares me (or any other onlooker from Europe or the rest of the world).

    What scares us is that you shitheads let them get away with it. You almost impeached a president for lying about a blowjob, but you don't take down an administration that is actively dismantling everything your ancestors fought and died for.

  • by Crypto Gnome ( 651401 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @06:30PM (#21316647) Homepage Journal

    that the spirit of the U.S. Constitution, of the Bill of Rights---indeed, the spirit of America---
    Sadly sir, you are mistaken. For many many many years now, it has not even slightly been about "the spirit of <something which we all care passionately about>" (not even when the intention of a written document is so painfully obvious that even a 5 year old can explain what is being said) but rather "exactly specifically which words were used in what order and how can I possibly reinterpret them to mean exactly what I want to say?".

    Issues like this go to court, courts are driven by lawyers, lawyers are not ever not even slightly interested in the truth, or what is right (morally/ethically or otherwise). They are only interested in proving whatever their client is paying them to prove.
  • by msauve ( 701917 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @06:31PM (#21316653)
    A right to privacy exists, and does not rely upon the Constitution, which simply defines the powers the people give to government.

    This is affirmed by the 9th Amendment, although the right exists independently of it.

    You're the sort of person for whom the Bill of Rights was added, because you simply don't understand the concept. The Constitution gives the Federal Government no power to intrude on privacy, therefore the right is retained by the people.

    bills of rights are in their origin, stipulations between kings and their subjects, abridgments of prerogative in favor of privilege, reservations of rights not surrendered to the prince... It is evident, therefore, that according to their primitive signification, they have no application to constitutions professedly founded upon the power of the people, and executed by their immediate representatives and servants. Here, in strictness, the people surrender nothing, and as they retain every thing, they have no need of particular reservations...I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and in the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed constitution, but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers which are not granted; and on this very account, would afford a colourable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do? Why for instance, should it be said, that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed?
    -Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 84

    Much US "case law," isn't law (in the exact same sense that our current money doesn't have value). It's not founded on any pure principles of ethics or logic, despite the claims of weasly lawyers and congresscritters, but upon convenience and authority through force. It's a history of progressive ursurpations of powers not granted by the people, and is illegitimate. The king has no clothes.
    That some judge states "black is white" doesn't make it so, and simply weakens any legitimacy the law once had.
  • by Kythe ( 4779 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @06:45PM (#21316759)
    What Mr. Kerr seems to miss is that the reason for government being fundamentally different than private companies is checks and balances.

    Private companies answer only to a limited number of customers; government (in theory) answers to all the voting population.

    Of course, when oversight (the checks and balances) is removed, government no longer answers to the people, and the potential for harm is exponentially greater, simply because the amount of potential power is greater.

    Government CAN be on the side of the angels. But without checks such as anonymity, it can be democracy and freedom's worst enemy.
  • Re:I, for one... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by arth1 ( 260657 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @06:46PM (#21316763) Homepage Journal
    I for one don't think we'll get MORE liberties by voting for right-wing populists.
  • by TwoHundredOk ( 1136131 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @06:53PM (#21316817)

    Heres an idea: People could post legal terms of service on their social networing pages declaring that employers and prospective employers are forbidden from looking at or copying from the pages. Such terms would be like No Trespassing signs on land.


    Traditionally, tortious trespass is trespass, regardless of whether or not there is a sign. Now, it's not trespass if you're thrown on to the private property, or if you run there to take cover from an act of god. But if you are wandering around and merely don't know that it's someone else's property, then you are liable. Of course, tort law varies from state to state. But the general upshot is that a "no trespassing" sign doesn't do much.

    Secondly, as mentioned previously, some consider that this might fall under "trespass to chattel." I can't remember the case offhand, but there was a case where IBM attempted to sue a disaffected employee who had been e-mailing current employees. They tried to sue for trespass to chattel, arguing that the e-mail was trespassing on their computers, this failed, however, since trespass to chattel generally requires damage to be done. There was no damage done to the computer from the e-mail, only to the workers' productivity. I imagine similar reasoning could be used to negate any such claims then.

    To get back to the point, you are suggesting some sort of electronic shrink-wrap license that binds employers to not use information from a social networking site towards hiring practices. I'm not sure if there's some precedent that would endorse this idea, but my own gut feeling is that it would fail. There isn't an adequate public policy reason to disallow companies from using social network information (in fact, there may be incentive for companies TO do such a thing, to reduce their hiring of 'troublesome' workers). Secondly, since people are willingly volunteering this information to the public at large, it would be hard to argue that one special class of people is not allowed to view or use that information. It's kind of backwards compared to most other privacy issues, where people giving information to a specific class of people are trying to PREVENT the general public from viewing/using it.

    And ethically, I, speaking personally now, see nothing wrong with denying someone a job based on information that they have willingly submitted to others. If they had broadcast something on tv that made them less 'hire-able,' the law certainly wouldn't protect it. Therefore, if it's your prerogative to post pictures of you drinking yourself into oblivion or complaining about your awkwardness at social functions, I think it's perfectly reasonable for an employer to deny you a position based on that information. Now, of course, if they deny it to you because of your race, creed, etc. then that would be unfair according to our laws. That, however, is already protected regardless of if you post it on the internet or not. So I am not seeing the reasoning behind not holding people accountable for their own actions here.

    P.S. This is just my response to the points you have brought up. The main point of contention from Kerr, that of giving up anonymity in favor of having the government 'safeguard' and be 'responsible' for our private data, I find to be completely ridiculous. Our government should not play the part of some wizened patriarch. It is here to enhance our ability to organize (economically and militarily). It should be a moderator, not a bully.
  • by arminw ( 717974 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @07:19PM (#21317071)
    ......to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects.......

    I suppose it can be debated whether some ephemeral electronic impulses in some distant computer apply to the above. In the days this was written, any government agent who did want these, had to physically come to the subject persons house or office and take such persons or items with him/her.

    It seems that in this day, the only way to keep anything truly secret, is to not tell anyone, anywhere, by any means and make sure it isn't recorded anywhere it is possible for another person to discover said secret(s). Sending a secret out by any electronic device is likely not much different than shouting it from your roof-top.

    Maybe Jesus had this in mind what is recorded in Luke 12:3?

    "For there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed, nor anything hidden that shall not be known. Therefore whatever you have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light. And that which you have spoken in the ear in secret rooms shall be proclaimed on the housetops."

    This was written long before mankind had our modern means of eavesdropping.
  • by Crypto Gnome ( 651401 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @07:19PM (#21317073) Homepage Journal
    heh

    The people voted the government in.
    I do believe that is disputed. ;-)
  • by Charcharodon ( 611187 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @07:37PM (#21317189)
    Actually you can have it both ways.

    Having Google show you all kinds of things that link back to your identity is a very good thing. After I saw how accurately Google showed how many, and there were many, places my private information was bouncing around the net I was able to quickly pull the plug on every business and social site that was leaking my info.

    Now when I do a search I find nothing about myself even after digging through 20 or 30 pages of Google search results.

    Now why can't the US government just do a bunch of Google searches for data? Well that's because it's ilegal for them to compile or release information on US citizens outside the scope of the reason it was collected without your consent or without a court order.

    Read the Privacy Act of 1974, it very specifically spells out what they can and can't do. One of those things they can't do is create computer data bases that let's them go on "fishing" trips by doing searches in public and private data bases without a court order. Which is exactly what they want to be able to do.

  • Re:Firefox add-on (Score:4, Insightful)

    by DaleGlass ( 1068434 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @07:46PM (#21317275) Homepage
    Have you seen Bruce Schneier's opinion [schneier.com] on your plugin?

    If your plugin still works as described, then I'd say it's very imperfect. I don't think the approach is completely wrong though, but it could use improvements.

    This reminds me of the old idea of randomly embedding key words like "president", "nuke", etc in mail and usenet posts, to mess with with Echelon/Carnivore. A mail with random key words inserted in places would work for triggering the data gathering, but look obviously unrelated to a human who reads the message, as the extra stuff would be inserted in nonsensical places.

    Now if your plugin happens to google for "raping virgins" how will you prove this wasn't a real search you tried to hide among a heap of a lot of grammatically incorrect ones? Searches that make grammatical sense will be a minority, and with a list like that there's a high chance that they won't be things normal people google about.

    Then there's that it doesn't seem it actually follows any links from the searches, so if the ISP is doing logging it's easy enough to tell what is being actually used.

    This seems to me like going to a library, and borrowing 20 books at once, including the Anarchist Cookbook and Mein Kampf, to try hide your actual and much more harmless interest in reading a book on say, Neopaganism. If your history is checked, all that extra stuff you didn't read isn't going to help you any, because there's no way to tell that most of your history was intended to be padding and you haven't even opened it.
  • Re:I, for one... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mOdQuArK! ( 87332 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @08:07PM (#21317441)
    A lot of people aren't voting for Ron Paul because they believe the same things he does. They're voting for him because he represents the only politician who they believe means it when he says he's going to completely upset the status quo.

    If he were elected, I'm not sure how much of his own agenda he'd be able to accomplish since he can only propose new legislation & veto things he disagrees with, but he could make it VERY difficult for Congress to pass things that there wasn't unanimous agreement about, and he wouldn't be giving the protection of the President's Office to those agents of the executive branch who are blatantly violating the Constitution.
  • by MadUndergrad ( 950779 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @08:19PM (#21317517)
    NO! Bad! This is not about "feeling" secure, it's about BEING secure. There's a huge difference. If someone can unreasonably search all your papers, effects, etc. then you're not secure against unreasonable searches and seizures, are you? It has nothing to do with how you feel about it. I see people making this fallacy all the time, that it's about feeling secure rather than actually being secure. That's not how it works. There is no rhetorical ground to be muddied.
  • by mweather ( 1089505 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @08:27PM (#21317569)
    Not quite what I meant. The constitution lists government powers, not citizen's rights. We always had the right to privacy. Just like we had the right to bear arms before the second amendment was written. Which is why it says the government may not infinge on our right to bear arms and not that the people have a right to bear arms. The right already existed.
  • by Shihar ( 153932 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @08:31PM (#21317609)

    Really, I don't need to read beyond this. Does the US have a privacy problem with personal data held by corporations without regulation? Yes. Does the US have a privacy problem with novel government surveillance methods without (serious) oversight? Hell Yes. Can one be used to excuse the other in any way shape or form? Hell no!
    It is worse than that. I don't like private companies to have piles of information on me. I don't like telemarketing spam. That said, what a private corporation can do with my personal information is a whole lot less than what the government can do. So Google knows what sort of pr0n I like and that I am looking for a job in another industry. Great. They can target ads for asian midget preggo lesbian white sock fetish porn at me while serving up ads for opening as a toll booth collector.

    The government on the other hand can do far worse to me. The government can realize that I am a fan of a radical centrist group and start keeping tabs on my every move. While they can't prove that I have done anything wrong in terms of being a radical terrorist, they can easily keep track of the laws I break and hit me all at once for them. As they track my GPS they can dish out a fine each time I touch above the speed limit, charge me the full $250,000 per son each time I let a friend borrow a CD, castrate me for drinking on the sabbath, toss me in jail for illegal drug possession when I pop one of my girlfriends anti-allergy pills, and in general make my life a miserable hell.
  • by HiThere ( 15173 ) <charleshixsn@@@earthlink...net> on Sunday November 11, 2007 @08:37PM (#21317651)
    It requires trusting the people who will be collecting the information. Experience proves that they are *NOT* trustworthy, and don't have your best interests at heart.

    Even if you can't get total privacy, get what you can, and don't give up easily. Those who are trying to replace privacy with trusting large organizations are doing so because large organizations can be threatened by larger or more powerful (or even just more committed) organizations.

    P.S.: Remember that "Do Not Call" list? That one shares your phone number with all telemarketers, so they'll know who not to call. It expires next year, and they've got your number.
  • by Watson Ladd ( 955755 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @09:07PM (#21317855)
    The US has rarely been a beacon of light. Look at Hawaii, Cuba, the Philippines, Honduras, Guatemala, Panama(twice), and Chile for examples. What makes this different is they've turned on the population of the US. Every one of these actions has been conducted in the darkness of government secrecy, against the will of the people. Until the government is responsive to the will of the people, this kind of stuff will go on.
  • by smittyoneeach ( 243267 ) * on Sunday November 11, 2007 @09:30PM (#21318045) Homepage Journal
    And you wonder (maybe you don't) why the US consistently rebukes efforts to set up new bodies exercising international sovereignty, for example, the UN Law of the Sea Convention.
  • by smittyoneeach ( 243267 ) * on Sunday November 11, 2007 @09:34PM (#21318069) Homepage Journal
    If I could excuse myself from this "Social Security" situation, then I might agree with you.
  • Awesome (Score:4, Insightful)

    by cgenman ( 325138 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @10:17PM (#21318325) Homepage
    Isn't it great how with one little change of definition, "privacy" can now mean "we keep private everything we know about you, which is everything."

    This guy really should be fired. Out of a cannon. At a wall.

  • by Dare nMc ( 468959 ) on Sunday November 11, 2007 @10:17PM (#21318329)

    ~30% of the results from Google for my name are actually about me.

    3 years ago 70% of the stuff on the first search page were me, not a single result is today.

    I quit posting with any reference to my real name/email. And thanks to recent use in a movie, my pseudonymn is no-longer unique also.

    Although you can't delete your online history, it will get diluted quickly.
  • Re:I, for one... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Maxo-Texas ( 864189 ) on Monday November 12, 2007 @12:34AM (#21319449)
    As long as 50% of the voters think it is murder, then there is a basic disagreement about what is the basic civil right (right to live or right to choose).

    The basic organization of the US is to recognize that people disagree- and yet we can work together. When you force every single damn issue to the national level, then you leave people no chance to move away from areas they disagree with and they start getting pretty pissy and intolerant.
  • by NeutronCowboy ( 896098 ) on Monday November 12, 2007 @12:46AM (#21319525)
    From a Eurotrash American, some counter points:

    1. Irrelevant. He was elected, however barely.
    2. The minor protests were retarded, and the larger protests are late to the party - not to mention, about the wrong problem. They're certainly no credit to America.
    3. You're kidding, right? If you didn't get the idea that Bush was going to send the US down the shitter before 2004, you weren't paying attention.
    4. Irrelevant. Pointing out someone else's problems is no way to advance the discussion.
    5. Treating the majority of Americans as responsible for Bush's election, and therefore responsible for his crap, is the one thing you can do. Not only did people vote for him in 2000 (which was retarded, but forgivable), but more people voted for him in 2004! At that point, they're responsible for his decisions, and the decisions his administration makes.

    So in short: if you voted for Bush twice, I'm holding you personally responsible for the way he is acting. Your parent poster might have said it differently, but it's not far off.
  • Re:I, for one... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by IgnoramusMaximus ( 692000 ) on Monday November 12, 2007 @12:59AM (#21319587)

    he would not continue to expand the government.

    I am afraid he would since many of his "morality" proposals require wide-spread governmental powers. Same for his militaristic (which he denies while actively foting for them) and many other aspirations. He simply wants the big governmental powers in places different from where they are now. This is in actuality the same problem most of the "small government" conservatives have, they all come with pet wacko social dogmas, enforcement of which is completely at odds with their espoused views on the mechanics of governance.

    he would not continue to take our civil rights and privacy

    Only if it came to abortion ... or sex between people he does not approve of ... or racial segregation ... or religious persecution ... or corporate excesses such as trusts and monopolies ... or basic social safety nets ... etc and so on

    He would not continue to raise the cost of government

    See above. His practical, deeply cherished by him beliefs are at odds with his overall proclamations.

    he would do what he says he would and has a long voting record showing he does do what he says.

    Err, it is not a good thing. Let me repost this [blogspot.com] link from another poster's post. Go see yourself.

    Right now- all other republican and democratic are lying so badly that we are literally voting for mystery men owned by the corporations.

    Unfortunately Ron Paul is no panacea for this.

    Ron Paul may not win, but he has a chance to shift the republicans back to being a small government party. Right now they are like a bunch of pro business, fascist, drunken sailors.

    And is a faux-Libertarian, nationalistic religious racist zealot any better? This straregy of trying to elect a patently disturbed individual so to "upset" the staus quo of corrupt fat fascists does not strike me as a particularly wise one. There are some wee unintended consequences possible that I can see, even if you don't.

  • Re:I, for one... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Russ Nelson ( 33911 ) <slashdot@russnelson.com> on Monday November 12, 2007 @01:06AM (#21319619) Homepage
    You're criticizing Ron Paul by citing Michael Moore?

    Wow. I'm speechless.
  • by Maxmin ( 921568 ) on Monday November 12, 2007 @01:59AM (#21320031)
    PopeRatzo, consider also that business is deeply intertwined with government in the USA. A sizeable chunk the people running policy at the appointed level, in the federal government, are fresh through the revolving door from the business side.

    Are they in government to make policy that benefits the people, or the businesses? Look to where they go after stepping through the revolving door the second time to answer that question.

    I believe that's what drives government to make statements and decisions that impact citizen privacy. Kerr, however, is a career spook. Spookland's interest in thwarting privacy is ostensibly about [preventing] terrorism, but when you consider the massive agglomerated databases of personal and financial history that government is buying/renting from private business, their objectives are not so clear. Let's see where Kerr ends up when his government tenure is over.

  • Re:I, for one... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by intchanter ( 1035396 ) on Monday November 12, 2007 @07:07AM (#21321559)
    After reviewing the summaries of the whole list, the only way I can see you justifying your claim of "whack-nuttery" is if you believe that government exists to allow you to force others to pay for your personal agendas or punish them for doing things that you don't like.

    A big problem with that point of view is that it makes the government a puppet for whoever screams most loudly, at the expense of everybody else. And since the loudest voice is constantly changing, we end up with the worst of all worlds, more tangled laws and regulations than a reasonable person will ever read, and a rapidly growing government.

    "Ron Paul's Congressional whack-nuttery" is the first real chance to break away from that in a very long time, and his claims are only further backed up by your link. I could run through that list of proposed bills one by one, if you like, but this really isn't the forum for that.

    If you have another reason for believing that the misrepresentations on the page linked are evidence of a real problem with Ron Paul's record, I'd love to hear them.
  • Ron Paul (Score:3, Insightful)

    by falconwolf ( 725481 ) <falconsoaring_2000 AT yahoo DOT com> on Monday November 12, 2007 @09:31AM (#21322345)

    If he were elected, I'm not sure how much of his own agenda he'd be able to accomplish since he can only propose new legislation & veto things he disagrees with, but he could make it VERY difficult for Congress to pass things that there wasn't unanimous agreement about, and he wouldn't be giving the protection of the President's Office to those agents of the executive branch who are blatantly violating the Constitution.

    The veto is anyone who wants to be president most powerful weapon. I'd love to see a president that would veto most of the bills passed by congress. In 2004 that's what Michael Badnarik [badnarik.org] promised. Congress can override vetoes but it isn't homogeneous enough to do it now. That would be a good sight to see, the federal government screeching to a halt.

    Falcon
  • Re:I, for one... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by falconwolf ( 725481 ) <falconsoaring_2000 AT yahoo DOT com> on Monday November 12, 2007 @09:46AM (#21322471)

    nd as for the bit about having my own "like minded state", that's the last thing I want. Diversity breeds challenge and adversity. They in turn make life interesting and lead to new discoveries and developments. Diversity encourages constant change, and it is without a doubt a huge advantage that western nations have over more isolationist countries. It's also perhaps the best reason I can think of for NOT allowing states to become miniature nations - such a system would encourage further isolation and alienation amongst political, ural, and even religious lines. You think Texans New Yorkers now, just wait until they've been practically autonomous for a few decades. Do you really want to Balcanize the US?

    That's the thing about states being able to set their own laws. Instead of one national lab, there can be 50 different labs. What then works in one state can be copied in other states and visa versa, what doesn't work in one state other states don't have to waste money trying out the same thing. In the end what works would spread faster and what fails will be gotten rid of.

    Falcon
  • Re:Awesome (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mbrod ( 19122 ) on Monday November 12, 2007 @10:30AM (#21322939) Homepage Journal
    I was watching the movie The Lives of Others [wikipedia.org] a few weeks back. Summary of the movie is it details East Germany spying on its own population after the end of WWII when the Communist party there was taking full control. They were monitoring everyone, but the catch was they used this information in really nasty ways. Bringing people in and interrogating them for 48 hours straight, arresting people, sending them for "training" for weeks on end if unruly. This all got me to thinking and asking the question "what if they didn't do the nasty things?". Because if they didn't do the nasty things a lot people, probably nearly all, would not have really done anything about the monitoring and surveillance.

    This is basically what this guy is saying. We will monitor everything and know everything about you just not come to your house and arrest you because of it. Trust us because we are nice.

    Well in my opinion the United States made it a very long time as a country without any intelligence, we could do just fine without them again if we have to.
  • Re:I, for one... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by moeinvt ( 851793 ) on Monday November 12, 2007 @10:38AM (#21323039)
    "Ron Paul? Take a look at any message board where 9/11 "truthers" gather . . . amongst the mentally unbalanced, Ron Paul is practically a rock star."

    Just because some fringe radicals support a particular candidate doesn't mean that candidate is "wrong" or somehow less deserving of support.

    "[abortion] is not a decision to be made by individual states. It's a human rights issue . . ."

    I believe that a woman should be free to make that decision, but abortion is not a "right" in the same sense as the "Rights" guaranteed by the Constitution, and it should most definitely be left up to the states. Your "legal child abuse" scenario is a silly straw-man argument.

    "Diversity breeds challenge and adversity. They in turn make life interesting and lead to new discoveries and developments."

    I don't see how restoring states' rights would impede discovery and development. If anything, you'd end up with MORE diversity. The fact that you point out a glaring difference between Texans and New Yorkers is even more evidence to show that a one size fits all Federal Government is inherently unworkable.
  • Re:I, for one... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by arosboro ( 991164 ) on Monday November 12, 2007 @11:42AM (#21323801) Homepage
    I did, and I can see how the author of this blog added a lot of spin. for example: He would deny the use of the Federal court system -- and even Federal precedent -- to people discriminated against because of their religious beliefs or sexual orientation If you read the summary text of Bill H.R. 300 http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:HR00300:@@@L&summ2=m& [loc.gov], it's looks like power from the federal courts is being handed down to the states so that they can decide how to handle these issues. If the states have the ability to make laws the way they see fit, then citizens are better represented by them.
  • Re:I, for one... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Maxo-Texas ( 864189 ) on Monday November 12, 2007 @11:50AM (#21323881)
    Poor people move all the time. You can move across the country in the US for under two hundred dollars. I have friends who are poor single moms who have moved out of state and back in state in just the last three years.

    You always have freedom to leave. You can *walk* across the country in 150 days. You can hop a bus for under $150 to cut most of that time off.

    However, if the laws are the same everywhere, then freedom to move doesn't make much of a difference.

  • Re:I, for one... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Loki_1929 ( 550940 ) on Monday November 12, 2007 @02:02PM (#21325603) Journal
    I'm sure there must be some reason why I can't tell whether that blog poster (and yes, the 'site' cited is actually nothing more than the incoherent ramblings of yet another of 10 trillion 'bloggers') is far left wing or far right wing. The only thing I can tell for sure is that they're unstable at room temperature.

    Let's get a few things straight:

    1) Refusing to finance a given decision does NOT mean you are against having choice in the matter
    2) Shifting power from the Federal government to the state governments does NOT equal fascism
    3) Refusing to subsidize something does NOT equate to being against it
    4) Being thrifty when it's not your money does NOT equate to being a religious whackjob
    5) The US Consitution still defines the role of the Federal government. Since the Federal government has proven many times over that it only does well the jobs laid out for it by the US Constitution, it makes sense that we restrict its roles thereto.

    Ron Paul isn't a nut - he's just thinking far beyond the average member of the body politic.

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