University of Florida Student Tasered At Political Rally 1819
An anonymous reader writes "During a political rally at the University of Florida, an annoying student was tasered while attempting to ask Senator Kerry (D-MA) some questions regarding the 2004 election. Police are looking into whether excessive force was used to prevent the student from going over his alloted question period." There are also several YouTube videos available of the incident.
Re:So, did Kerry ever actually answer the question (Score:5, Informative)
Re:When someone is being an ass, don't drag them o (Score:1, Informative)
A little misleading... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Inapproprate use of force? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Motive? Attention, period. (Score:3, Informative)
There's one thing where the student was sort of right: If Kerry holds a long speech, then this particular situation does not need to be resolved in a matter of two minutes. Political discourse has to accept some overhead, even if just to allow rabid dissenters to expose their own lunacy. Making martyrs out of them is morally and strategically wrong.
Re:Move over Geraldo. (Score:3, Informative)
Once they're near the exit he tries to break through them towards the podium so they wrestle him to the ground. Once there he keeps trying to get loose and keeps screaming.
Then they tell him repetedly.
"Stop resisting or you will get tased"
After he keeps resisting for a while they just give up and tase him.
he was CLEARLY resisting arrest and making a scene. When I read the summary I was on his side but after the Video...
Re:His name (Score:4, Informative)
I am not saying that police do not abuse their authority. I am not going to debate you on your previous statements, but only on the one I italicized.
This guy seemed (video is shaky) like he was putting up quite a fight.
Have you ever tried to restrain someone who really really does not want to be restrained? Have you ever been kicked, slapped, pushed shoved by someone trying to get away? Someone you cannot hit in the head? I have --and I'm only a paramedic who can only use soft restraints and wait 'till NYPD gets to the scene with handcuffs. And remember: you have to try and restrain them without hurting them or occluding their airway, which makes the task even more difficult!
This guy was resisting arrest. I'm not debating whether it was right to arrest him in the first place. The penal law here (and in most states) in New York State states that it's illegal to resist arrest even when you think that the arrest is unauthorized.
How did they manage police work before they had tasers?
I have seen scrawny seventeen year olds give six hulky NYPD ESU cops a helluva a hard time before he was restrained. And also keep in mid that it would only take one lucky kick to the face for one of these cops to lose an eye --seen it happen before.
Put on my uniform (the one where you are not allowed to carry ANY weapons) and come back to us in a couple of years, or in my case, ten
Going limp not recommended (Score:3, Informative)
A past slashdot article [slashdot.org] would disagree with that advise. Also see, for example, information about the UCLA taser policy [blakeross.com].
Re:His name (Score:2, Informative)
I watched the video too. And what do you believe would be the correct method of detaining someone who is resisting arrest and creating a disturbance, because if you watched the video you can be very sure he was doing both of those. The main thing police are there for is to stop anarchy. He managed to get his hands free multiple times and just before the taser. The cops attempt to get him to cooperate, yet he completely refuses. They tell him if he resists they will taser him, yet they hold off the taser until he drags the cops that are attempting to hold him to the ground, and then they still wait until he refuses to accept the cuffs and frees himself twice more. At this point the cops have two options, arm lock him, which for someone refusing the arrest would likely suffer a broken or dislocated arm, or to taser him, quickly subduing him and making their job a lot easier. And for all of you that are saying that they just used the taser because it's the new toy, that may be true, but you have to also be tasered before you are authorized to use one, they knew full well what the taser does.
Re:There are restrictions to free speech (Score:5, Informative)
Now you've been arrested for resisting arrest. Half the time the orig. charges don't stick, are dropped, or just didn't exist to begin with. Brilliant.
Re:Going limp not recommended (Score:5, Informative)
And it will allow your lawyer to say things like, "And here we see a completely passive person being needlessly tasered by over-aggressive police."
Instead of this: "Well, you can see from the angle that my client wasn't actually trying to punch the cop in the face, but was just waving to some friends behind the cop."
Re:His name (Score:3, Informative)
I saw the whole video as well. The video is not good evidence.
Where are his hands??? You can't see 'em!! So what if he is on the ground? He is still a threat if his hands are not cuffed! Were the officers able to pat him down for a weapon thoroughly? Did the officers believe -- because of his behavior-- that this person is and EDP (emotionally disturbed person) who needs psychiatric and possibly medical help?
Torture? Ha!
Re:Hog at the mic (Score:5, Informative)
this is also considered resisting arrest and in situations officers will repeatedly tazer a limp person to torture them or pay them back for making them work. This happens a lot with protesters who make 2 or more cops carry them off, One who chained himself to a fence was tazered enough times that the cop had to get a second tazer as he emptied his. The man refused to unlock himself, the cop was too pig headed to get a set of bolt cutters and drag him off and was intent in teaching the protester a lesson.
http://www.ourmedia.org/node/55217 [ourmedia.org]
http://digg.com/world_news/Police_attack_PEACEFUL_Anti_War_Protestors_with_tasers_dogs_pepper_spray [digg.com]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=U9hL9Hy00pI [youtube.com]
the internet is FULL of corrupt cops doing this to peaceful people because they are lazy.
Cops should be required to write a 12 page report for every time they pull the trigger on a tazer. If an offier tazers a person more than 3 times without good cause needs to be fired and blackballed from ever being in law enforcement ever again and possibly serve jail time, preferrably in with open prison population and let the prisoners know he is a cop.
as a cop you are public protectors, you are to PROTECT AND SERVE even the guy you are arresting based on your interpretation of the law. If any force is exerted you need to be punished HARD if it was inappropriate.
Re:Move over Geraldo. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:So what??? (Score:5, Informative)
Taser S.O.P.:C.Authorization to use:
C.1 To control a dangerous or violent subject when deadly force does not appear to be justified and/or necessary;
C.2If attempts to subdue the subject by other conventional tactics have been, or will likely be, ineffective in the situation at hand; or
C.3If there is reasonable expectation that it will be unsafe for officers to approach within contact range of the subject, see also the Use of Force continuum,
Attachment A.. D. Prohibitions:
D.1The TASER may not be used on individuals who can be controlled by voice command or direction.
D.2The TASER may not be used as punishment or retaliation.
D.3 TASERs will not be used in conjunction with O.C. Spray.
D.4Handcuffed prisoners should not be tased without extenuating circumstances.
Re:There are restrictions to free speech (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Move over Geraldo. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Good! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Wants His 15 Minutes (Score:2, Informative)
The point is, though, that the police do not have the authority - even when someone is twisting and panicking during arrest - to taser him until he presents a danger to those around him. Mr. Meyer was not lashing out at the police, he was not trying to strike them or otherwise injure them. He *was* resisting arrest, but not violently.
Finally, have you ever been tasered? I can assure you, it hurts *much* worse than a properly applied joint-lock. What the police did was deliberately inflict serious pain with a potentially lethal weapon on a man who was very nearly under their control - for their own convenience, not safety.
Re:Motive? Attention, period. (Score:4, Informative)
Tear gas, nightsticks, and rubber bullets have caused death before. In fact, people have even died after just being handcuffed. I guess we should get rid of those, too?
Re:His name (Score:4, Informative)
Your post implies that Kerry demanded that this kid be removed/silenced/tasered/etc. This is far from the truth. Watch the video again and you'll see.
Re:Motive? Attention, period. (Score:3, Informative)
PS this guy probably was hit wtiha stun gun on a low setting. you can tell because I know 8 people who have been tased and every single one told me you can move a muscle while it's going on, complete lock up. I've seen a couple videos of it and it looks like that is the case there as well.
oh, and not certain on fl, but you need to get hit again in NC when getting re-trained.
Re:There are restrictions to free speech (Score:1, Informative)
Sure. People should be arrested for breaking the law.
Now, point to the law that makes hogging the microphone grounds for an arrest.
One other poster pointed out that "resisting arrest" appears to be becoming a rather popular reason to arrest people in the first place. Personally, I think if the cop can't even be bothered to fake the paperwork to show some reason for having arrested the person, they should be held responsible on false arrest/imprisonment/kidnapping charges.
Re:There are restrictions to free speech (Score:4, Informative)
In his actions, there was a justifiable use of force against him. He resisted several officers, and was making an effort to resist their instructions (leave).
When they had him on the ground, handcuffed, he was now in control. Up until this point, they could have used the taser with justified force. Now that he was on the ground, in control, he was just being loud.
I didn't hear any zapping. I didn't see the convulsions, although the video I watched (first link) did not have a clear shot of the student. He was only screaming "OW! OW! OW!".
I typical use of force would be to control the resisting person with pressure points and positive control. Every law enforcement officer is taught them. When I went through law enforcement school in Florida, it was a long, required part of the training.
Florida has an escalation of force matrix. It's really very simple. You are allowed to use one step above what the other person is using. If they are resisting, you may use hand-to-hand tactics. If they are resisting with force, you may escalate to non-lethal weapons (tazer, or pepper spray)
From what I could see, it appeared they were using pressure points and positive control, which yes, would have made him say "Ow!"
Now, if he had a weapon, and rushed the stage, they could have escalated the force to lethal force immediately. i.e., shot him before he got to the stage.
He got hurt (Ow!), but he was being an ass. He was pushing the issue ("Are you a members of Skull and Bones?!?"), and wasn't leaving the speaker a chance to answer. Someone mentioned that he was a journalism student. A good journalist needs to ask questions, and receive answers. If he was a journalist, he would likely be fired for his actions, which I hope his teacher told him.
When he was asked to leave the mic, he could have simply said "Thank you for your time.", and walked away, even if they did escort him from the building.
You are right, if he had stated his question, and waited for an answer, he may have still been asked to leave, but the speaker should have simply laughed, and said "oh no, I'm not.". Diffused situation. That's up to a good speaker to know how to control his audience, but sometimes you'll have an audience member who doesn't play well (like this student).
Re:Strike Three (Score:5, Informative)
Better Video (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvrqcxNIFs [youtube.com]
He's cuffed, and being dragged by 4 guys. He's been tazered so much he can't move, and they keep saying "get up or we'll tazer you again". I count at least 4 LONG tazings, after the original video stops, before I just stopped watching, and I was only half way through.
Whether or not he deserved the initial response from the first video is ambiguous, but he was CLEARLY a victim of police brutality, and excessive force in the second.
Re:So what??? (Score:3, Informative)
Throw the book at Kerry (Score:5, Informative)
Re:There are restrictions to free speech (Score:2, Informative)
Re:There are restrictions to free speech (Score:4, Informative)
This guy was creating a public disturbance. He deserved what he got, IMO. He'll also be charged and probably fined for it.
Re:So what??? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:So what??? (Score:3, Informative)
"Stun" is a funny word to use in the context of tasers. The definition of that word is "To daze or render senseless", "To overwhelm or daze with a loud noise.", or "To stupefy, as with the emotional impact of an experience; astound."
None of these are what a taser does. A taser causes pain in extreme amounts, and that's about it. It's not designed to "stupefy" you, or make you "dazed" or "senseless", it's designed to make you feel pain, with the intention being that you will choose to do what you're told in order to avoid feeling more pain.
Tasers are torture devices, and defending their use in non-threatening situations is advocating torture.
He was NOT yet handcuffed. Rewatch the videos. (Score:3, Informative)
It's quite clear that they tasered him because they couldn't restrain him. Note that while he's being tasered, they work his arms into position and then release him from the pin they have on him. Afterwards, he's shown being led away with his hand cuffed behind his back.
If they were already cuffed behind his back, you couldn't have seen his right arm in front of his body before he tried to sit upright. While there is a possibility that he was cuffed in the six seconds before the shock was delivered, it's inconsistent with the motions of the cops during the shock (where they struggle with arms and then release).
Here's a video of the whole thing (Score:4, Informative)
More importantly, once they wrestle this guy to the ground (after about a minute of his resisting arrest) they tell him numerous times that if he doesn't place his hands behind his back and comply with the officers' requests that he's going to be tased. So only after the guy refuses to leave the microphone, after he resists arrest, and after he refuses to comply with directives given to him while he's on the ground do the officers taser him. From the officers' standpoint it very much looks like, absent tasing, this guy just isn't going to comply at all - even in handcuffs. I'm sorry, but what's the story here?
As a side note, it's pretty clear this guy was not in full posession of his faculties. At the end of the video, he starts ranting about how the other students need to be sure to "ask about the guy who was arrested at the Kerry rally" because he fears that he's going to be killed. He also refuses to give his name to the police (and as we all learned in Hibel v. Nevada, you may not have to show ID, but you do have to identify yourself to police officers).
Anyway, this is a non-story. Watch the video. Crazy guy resists arrest; Crazy guy gets tased.
Re:Pigs. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Physical intimidation without going batshit (Score:3, Informative)
Re:So what??? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Cuffed and then tasered... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Strike Three (Score:3, Informative)
Court records show that Meyer was booked on a felony charge of resisting an officer and a misdemeanor charge of disturbing the peace. That's not what the officers told Meyer after he was shocked and taken into custody. "You're under arrest for inciting a riot," a female police officer said at the time.
John Kerry's Response (Score:5, Informative)
From Kerry's Blog: http://www.johnkerry.com/blog [johnkerry.com]
JK: "A good healthy discussion was interrupted"
by Rick Albertson on September 18th, 2007
Senator Kerry made the following statement in response to the arrest of a student at the University of Florida:
In 37 years of public appearances, through wars, protests and highly emotional events, I have never had a dialogue end this way.
I believe I could have handled the situation without interruption, but again I do not know what warnings or other exchanges transpired between the young man and the police prior to his barging to the front of the line and their intervention.
I asked the police to allow me to answer the question and was in the process of answering him when he was taken into custody.
I was not aware that a taser was used until after I left the building. I hope that neither the student nor any of the police were injured.
I regret enormously that a good healthy discussion was interrupted.
Re:Strike Three (Score:2, Informative)
Re:So what??? (Score:3, Informative)
Maybe if they let him HEAR the answers (since Kerry said he wanted to answer the students questions) to his questions this whole thing would have turned out to be nothing. Anyway, yeah the kid was obnoxious but he was NOT violent or a threat to anyone and only should have been tazered if he had shown threat of violence. The only "lashing out" he did was to get the officers hands off him so he could stand up and listen to the answers to his questions.
The kid really is lucky. After the first swing on an officer (you can see it before he gets taken down) the officers could have clubbed him. As far as I could see the police were all very well behaved.
He never swung at any of the officers, what he did was throw his arms up to break the hold they had on him. There is a HUGE difference between taking a swing at an officer and flailing around trying to get loose. I agree the officers seemed to be behaved until of course the tazering occurred.
They tried to talk him down. They tried to escort him peacefully. When he resisted escort they restrained him. When he broke free of his restraining officers they restrained him with a couple bigger officers. When he broke free again and started lashing out at officers they took him down to the floor. Then on the floor he kept kicking and lashing out as they tried to talk him down. All of the violence was initiated by this punk.
Both sides are at fault but I still think they should have just let Kerry answer the student and then if the student didn't shut up they could have escorted him out. At one point the student even said he would leave if they let him up, did they do that? No, they tazered him instead and charged him with a felony, that is a crock of shit.
I am a huge proponent for free speech, but he was preventing others from having a chance to speak and provoking the police at every turn. He might even have been paid to create an incident, but it appears the incident was all his fault. He will have a fine, and his "resisting arrest" could get him time if any of those officers were hurt. They were just trying to do their job and this nutjob attacks them. How would you like to have their job? You are being polite as possible and you get attacked by a screaming lunatic who shoves your friend and then nails you in the head with a wild swing.
Don't sign up for a job you know is going to have you deal with people such as this if you will be bothered by it. The guy NEVER ATTACKED THE COPS you moron. If anything it was the cops who initiated the arms flailing around by trying to restrain him before Kerry answered his questions.
Those policemen and women did a damn fine job. I am sorry that he had to be tasered, but when several policemen are having trouble restraining someone who is lashing out there are very few choices left.
Those policemen and women should be investigated and punished for what happened. Especially the one who actually tazered the kid. The kid was already subdued by about 6 cops, tazering was not needed and to me it looks like they only did it to get him to shut up. He was not a threat (do you see anyone around him taking off running scared?) and should not have been tazered. The only time anyone in the audience seemed scared was when the poor guy got tazered.
What a shitty thing to happen on the anniversary of the Constitution getting signed. Someone at a political Q&A session is not allowed to ask questions and hear the answers to his questions and ends up getting tazered and charged with a felony. This is a sad day indeed.
Re:There are restrictions to free speech (Score:3, Informative)
As four police were holding him down. He admitted that he lost and was willing to be escorted out to a waiting cruiser to go to the station and be handled. But that's when the cop pulled out his tazer and, after Our question asking buddy said "please don't taser me" they TAZERED HIM AS OTHER POLICE OFFICERS HELD HIM DOWN.
So you see, he was offering to go peacefully. And they tazered him.
Stop modding people up when they lie! (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaiWCS10C5s [youtube.com]
Kerry finishes a question, points to him, and says "Sir?".
During his question, the guy is interrupted, and at the end of his question, his mic is cut, and police immediately grab him and proceed to forcibly remove him from the premises. At that time, Kerry is asking the police to let the guy be while he answers his question. The police PREVENT KERRY FROM ANSWERING with their actions, and when the kid starts to fight them off THEN the crowd applauds him.
The Kid waited his turn, politely asked a question when he was invited to do so by Kerry, his question was interrupted as soon as he said something controversial, his microphone is then cut and he's immediately removed from the microphone area, and Kerry cannot answer the question because the officer's action are causing a disturbance in the proceeding.
THAT is what the videos show. That is what Kerry's official statement says happened.
Re:Watch the videos again, you missed stuff (Score:3, Informative)
He waits his turn, he speaks only when spoken to. He starts with an explanation of facts, is then interrupted by the cops off camera, he tells them "I'll ask my question", he asks his question, his microphone is cut off mid sentece. He says an ironic "thank you for cutting my mic" and is immediately physically forced away from the microphone.
Read that again.
He was asking a question at an open forum and the police proceeded to physically remove him from the premise rather than let him hear the answer to his question.
Kerry asks the officer to let him be so he can answer his question. The officers escalate the conflict, the guy attempts to break free, asks what he has done to warrant this treatment, he is simply told to not resist. Kerry keeps saying he wants to answer the question.
When the kid tries to break free, the crowd applauds.
When he's manhandled down the corridor, people in the audience ask "what are you doing!?"
Kerry keeps saying he wants to answer the question, the kid keeps asking why he's being treated like this, he is only told not to resist, and the escalation of violence is entirely the police's doing.
I can prove that I am right (Score:3, Informative)
1. you made a statement that was patently false. You claimed that the police didn't like the content of the kid's questions.
So when I say that they arrested him because they didn't like the content of his question, I say something true that I can back with proof.
Re:So what??? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:His name (Score:5, Informative)
I didn't see any torture. I saw someone who KNEW what he was doing going to great lengths to make sure he screamed like a school girl at exactly the moment needed to maximize the theatrics. A hit with a taser isn't torture.
stab gear is light weight and worn under the shirt so you can not see it
Which does nothing for your arms, groin, face, or legs. As you obviously know.
sadism
You're confusing this kid's deliberately putting himself into that scenario and launching the physical part of the conflict with someone ELSE looking for some chance to inflict pain. Sadism: BS, and you know it. Not wanting to have to deal with someone acting increasingly loopy, is more like it. And, you're still talking like they just walked up and tasered him, which you know is BS. They TOLD him they were going to, half a dozen times. All he had to do was quit being physical, problem solved.
I would have put one of the kids arms behind his back grabbed a handful of hair with the other
Just what a guy like this would be hoping for, if he could talk you into tasering him. An officer dragging a political protester by the hair is a nice second place - he'd LOVE you for that. It would also go right up on his home page.
Hell bouncers in most bars would have done a better job then those clowns did.
I've bounced, subdued, and disarmed plenty of large, drunk people. I'm not a cop, so of course no arrests personally. But I've dealt with people three times that kid's size that turned out to be big pushovers, and some very small, very scrappy people that I've watched dislocate an officer's arm, break a jaw, and nearly blind someone else while resisting being tossed out of a venue. And I HAVE watched someone get a bad guy's dislodged, hidden belt knife rammed right into their thigh, followed by some life-threatening bleeding in the middle of the fight. His vest likely would have stopped it, but... he wasn't wearing his vest on his damn leg, as you ALSO know.
A legal perspective Under the circumst (Score:3, Informative)
Under the circumstances here, Meyer was seized (arrested). He was both physically restrained and, under the totality of the circumstances, a reasonable innocent person would not think he was free to terminate the encounter with the police. Therefore he was arrested (seized) under both definitions.
Seizure with excessive force is unconstitutional:
One kind of Constitutionally unreasonable arrest is one with excessive force, in other words, police brutality. Therefore the next question is whether the police used excessive force in arresting Meyer.
Florida law limits the use of force by police:
Florida law allows the use of force when a person is resisting a lawful arrest. See http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0776/SEC05.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0776-%3ESection%2005#0776.05 [state.fl.us]
An arrest is only lawful when the police have probable cause to think that the suspect has violated the law. Therefore the question is whether the police reasonably believed that Meyer had committed some crime.
Police only allowed to use force for "lawful arrests:"
The crime(s) of which Meyer was accused (other than resisting arrest) are
apparently (depending on which newspaper article you read) inciting riot or obstructing an educational institution. A quick skim of those laws convinces me that it is unlikely that Meyer violated either one. See the text of these laws at: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0877/SEC13.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0877-%3ESection%2013#0877.13 [state.fl.us]
This arrest was not lawful, so the force was illegal:
Therefore the police were not entitled to use force against Meyer because the lacked probable cause to think he had violated the law. In the absence of probable cause, the arrest is not a "lawful arrest," and therefore force is not authorized under Florida law. Therefore the police's use of force was illegal. Furthermore, Florida law expressly makes the use of force unlawful in such situations, stating that "a law enforcement officer . . . is not justified in the use of force if the arrest is lawful and known by him or her to be unlawful." See http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0776/SEC051.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0776-%3ESection%20051#0776.051 [state.fl.us]
Even if the arrest was lawful, the force was excessive:
Further, even if we assume that Meyer had violated some criminal law, such that the police were entitled to use some force in the arrest, they are only entitled to use force reasonable under the circumstances. See the applicable Florida law on the use of force. http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0776/SEC05.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0776-%3ESection%2005#0776.05 [state.fl.us]
In this case Meyer was trying to avoid arrest but he threatened nobody. That is, Meyer was just yelling and trying to get away (by flailing around, yelling, and trying to walk away and evade the police's grasp). He didn't bite, kick, have a weapon, etc.
Therefore under the circumstances, the use of the taser was excessive force. Since excessive force was used in accomplishing the seizure of Meyer, Me
Re:Ugh... (Score:3, Informative)
Shoot, even picking up my 3-year-old isn't easy when he doesn't want to be picked up. I have to chase him, corner him, grab him (I don't want to hurt him, and that takes more time/care), and carry him in such a way that his flailing limbs don't smack me.