US Senators Question Indian Firms Over H-1Bs 415
xzvf sends us a link to a BusinessWeek report on the campaign of two US senators to get answers to how H-1B work visas are actually being used. Yesterday Senators Chuck Grassley (R-IA) and Richard Durbin (D-IL) sent a letter (PDF) to nine Indian outsourcing firms that, among them, snapped up 30% of the H-1B visas issued last year. The senators want to know, among other things, whether the H-1B program is being used to enable the offshoring of American jobs. "Critics say outsourcing firms, including Infosys Technologies and Wipro, are using the visas to replace US employees with foreign workers, often cycling overseas staff through US training programs before sending them back into jobs at home."
who's surprised? (Score:2, Interesting)
Fair trade (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Heck Yes (Score:2, Interesting)
Extremely shitty software.
I don't work in IT, but the company I work for does depend heavily on a wide variety of computer systems. For years we've used some system developed in-house. It wasn't great, but for the most part it got the job done. However, a couple years back our management decided, for whatever reason, that we needed a new computer system. Somehow the contract was given to an Indian firm, based out of India.
The problems were numerous. First, there was essentially no interacting between any of our workers (ie. the people using the software) and the developers. They held two meetings over the course of about a year. One was at the very beginning of the project, and it was a complete disaster. The people they sent over could barely speak English. For the part of the meeting I sat in at, it was damn near impossible to get anything done. We'd try to explain to them how we used the old system, but they just couldn't understand what we were saying. We even had one fellow walk right out of the meeting, saying it was, in his words, "a fucking stupid idea".
Eventually they delivered the software. We had wanted it in six months. They took about ten. And as would be expected, it didn't work at all. The stability was terrible. Data would be lost. The usability was absolutely horrible. I mean, there were spelling errors all over the place, and sometimes we'd got "Work Uncomplete" messages. Yes, "uncomplete". I don't know much about software, but I don't think they tested it at all.
The second meeting was held to try to fix these problems. We were damn angry, as you can image. Thankfully, one of the people they sent over spoke English. It turns out he was born in New York, but was working in India for this outsourcing firm. He basically said that his job was to go around and do what he could to clean up the mess his colleagues made of these projects. At least he was able to understand our complaints.
I don't exactly know what happened, but I think that the management got a North American firm to rewrite a large portion of the software. At least now it's mostly functional. And it doesn't look much like the system the Indian firm provided, so I think a lot of it was rewritten.
Re:WTF?! (Score:2, Interesting)
This is just the long term result of globalization, is all. All those years you enjoyed the third world cranking out dirt cheap products? First the crap jobs went over, then they got smart and started taking the better ones. Thing is, once hungry third world cooperations without all the costs of first world labour standards at head office, or unions and whatnot start taking over internationally, then eventually the usa is just going to be another place to outsource to. Guess that will be really "unfair."
Anyway. You know you guys are truly hurting when you begrudge foreign workers leaving after being trained at your companies. Ouch.
Re:I don't get it... (Score:1, Interesting)
You have a contract for dozens or hundreds in India. You bring handfuls of them to the states at a time where they spend six months working along side the American workers in a mentoring program. Then they go back to India and teach the rest of their coworkers. Since Sun already let off most of its teams in the last six years there are not lots of people to fire but what this does is keep them from having to hire new people in America. Instead of hiring a dozen new guys in America to fill their need (guys that were probably laid off in the last few years), they can just hire them in India.
I'm amazed no one's said it yet (Score:5, Interesting)
These overseas folks are here principally because of a lack of skilled US citizens in critical areas. The ire being posted on this thread is largely misplaced. Instead of ranting about foreigners suckling "your" jobs out of this country, perhaps we should have better funded engineering education programs and engineering-related incentives for prospective college students so we have enough Americans to do the work? Banning the H1Bs will only make it harder to fill these vacancies, which helps no one.
Honestly, I've never understood the sense of entitlement some have about their IT jobs. If you're half as good as you say you are, you should have no problem landing your next gig.
Re:Yes... (Score:2, Interesting)
You lie. You will not be able to easily find a substitute - for any money, for any of our H1B (we have just a few).
I am talking about top level talent. If you say it is easy to find it - you either lie, or do not know what you are talking about.
I am not defending Indian sweat shops by the way. I think contracting H1B workers out shuld be prohibited. It will stop most abuses.
You can't handle the Truth (Score:2, Interesting)
This is less true of L-1 and L-2 visas, except for firms engaged in active outsourcing.
If they would just make it easy (as in FAST, 6 months max time) to have people with legitimate Ph.D's move here - without any right of having their "family" move here, other than a spouse - the program might work.
Indian H1B Visa Fraud (Score:1, Interesting)
There are companies in the US with all Indians being paid less than the going rate that are undercutting other companies playing by the rules.
The intent of H1B tech visas was not to enable the importation of low cost labor, but that is how it being using in many cases. Microsoft, Cisco and Intel benefit from getting the cream from the H1B's and are using the law the way it was intended, but the vast majority petitioners are bringing in under qualified and underpaid people to fill jobs that could easily be filled at home.
Increasing the numbers is not going to create more qualified applicants from the Indian labor pool, it is only going to increase fraud.
Re:why indian companies apply for more h1-b (Score:3, Interesting)
I've got two good Indian friends here, and neither of them are fucking named John either, so quit even TRYING, call centers.
H1 transfers not so hard (Score:3, Interesting)
They're not nearly so docile now that H1 transfers are _relatively_ easy to do. Many startup employers here in Silicon Valley don't want to deal with H-1B's anymore because the legal expenses/hassles really add up, but will still hire them for difficult to fill positions. I personally have hired for permanent positions about 10 H-1Bs over the past 10 years--always at competitive wages and never to replace a current employee (it is very hard to find highly skilled embedded/networking software engineers).
Nearly all the H-1B candidates I've ever hired wanted to use it as a path to citizenship--not what H-1B was intended for, but good for the country (at least in my opinion).
I have on occasion reluctantly dealt with contracting outfits that sent us foreign workers (presumably also on H-1B)--these guys did seem like they might be getting screwed by their agency--though they were probably hoping some client would hire them away so they could stay in the US permanently too.
Tens of thousands of the best and brightest engineers in China, India (& the rest of the world) would love to come to the US--permanently. It will only harm the US if we don't at least allow some of the best of the best do so.
WHY NOT GREEN CARDS ???? (Score:2, Interesting)
How about... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Why this years visas were filled in one day (Score:5, Interesting)
Another positive effect would be that the people who actually are most valuable will get the visas rather than the people who got lucky in the lottery. Imagine a brilliant person whose employer would gladly pay $500K to sponsor getting sent home because some other average schmuck got the visa. Kind of sucks for everybody but the schmuck. That's not exactly what we were hoping for when the program was instituted.
investigate employers here too (Score:3, Interesting)
I worked at Microsoft from January 2001 until May 2007 as a software design engineer at the corporate headquarters in Redmond, WA. Most of Microsoft's products, such as Windows, Office, Exchange, and SQL Server are developed here in Redmond. If you walk through the halls where the programmers are working, you will see that the majority of the workers are not from the US.
While at Microsoft, I interviewed job candidates for programming positions. Microsoft HR provided screened resumes, and my team interviewed and made hiring decisions. Microsoft HR publicly states that they make "diverse hiring" a goal. Race and nationality never are and never have been factors in my hiring decisions, but I was very rarely presented with American candidates, which is strange given that we are in America. Almost every candidate was a foreign worker. The positions we were trying to fill are not very unique that we needed to look outside the US - these were typical programming and testing positions. Microsoft has thousands of such positions, and the job functions performed by foreign programmers do not differ from those of American programmers.
In some of Microsoft's product development divisions, including one that I worked in for 5 years, foreign workers also participate in the hiring process as interviewers. Some teams are comprised almost entirely of foreign workers, mostly from India or China, from the bottom up through several levels of management. It is to a point now that many foreign workers are the ones conducting the job interviews and making the hiring decisions here in Redmond.
Being an American on a team with mostly H-1B visaholders is discouraging at times. As an American you want to live your life, work hard, and make your workplace the best it can be. Your coworkers are more concerned about navigating their way through the immigration system and ensuring that they keep their visa sponsor happy.
I don't have any ill-will towards H-1B workers, rather I feel sorry for them because of the leverage that their employer has over their lives as their visa sponsor. My gut feeling is that employers like Microsoft are either directly abusing the H-1B program or indirectly benefiting from its abuse. The program allows them to hire thousands of employees and relocate them to a place where they have no citizenship and can have their sponsorship revoked at any time. This naturally makes them more attractive to hire than an American who is already here and trying to get a job. Without the sponsorship component of the visa, this would not be possible.
My H-1B study (Score:3, Interesting)
http://panic.berkeley.edu/~akopps/paper/paper.pdf [berkeley.edu]
I looked at the correlation between the relative supply of H-1B workers and the wages of IT workers. Surprisingly, I found no significant correlation between the presence of H-1B workers and labor market outcomes. However, surprisingly, if you look at the impact at the impact on the wages of only male workers, then there is a slight but a very clear (statistically significant) 'impact' on their earnings. Even more surprisingly, if you also look at the correlation between the earnings of female domestic workers and the relative supply of H-1B workers, then there is a POSITIVE impact on their earnings.
Of course, I concede that there could be a A LOT of problems with the methodology I used and with the data employed in this study. My methodology was basically constrained by whatever data I had access to. However, if we assume for a moment that the data and methodology were more or less reliable, then I suspect that what's happening is that the IT labor market is somewhat segregated by genders (someone needs to test this hypothesis). E.g. the female workers tend to be employed in occupations that are complimentary to occupations that are dominated by male workers (e.g. QA, testing, etc). If this assumption is correct, then the H-1B workers (who are predominantly male) might indeed depress the earnings of male domestic workers a little bit, but at the same time the increase supply of male workers boots the demand for occupations that tend to employ female IT workers. So, if you look at the overall effect on earnings, there is no relationship, but there is clearly something going on once you break down the earnings data by genders.
H1-B's are also being used properly (Score:1, Interesting)
I can tell you that I am paid well above market rates. In addition to that my employer picked up the bill for relocating my family and possessions (not a cheap exercise). If a US worker had been available, even at an extreme salary premium to market rates, it would have been cheaper to hire locally.
Certainly go ahead and fix any loopholes that are allowing exploitation of the system, but don't get that confused with companies that are properly using these visas. Blocking legitimate use just hurts US companies.
You should also recognize that H1-B is a non-immigrant visa. It is valid for a maximum of 6 years and then the person has to go home. I have never understood that. It just encourages outsourcing (we still can't find any decent local talent and you are great at the job so just keep doing it from your home country)!
Whatever you do with visas it does not help fix the crumbling under-funded education system that is preventing a sufficient local supply of talent. The "free market system" isn't going to drive a solution if the bulk of your population can't afford the education that is a pre-requisite to supplying the IT market with labor.
In my home country anyone, no matter what the financial means of their family, can be educated at a great university (assuming you pass the competitive entrance tests). If you don't have the means to pay the government steps up and funds the bulk of your position. They will even fund most of your living costs if needed! You have a small, very manageable, "inflation-only" loan at the end of the process. That loan only has to be repaid once you are earning a proper salary.
Since I have been here I have, at times, been involved in hiring. I have seen very few decent resumes from the US even after going out and intentionally searching for them. Yes we are offering great pay and projects - the supply just isn't there no matter what incentives are being offered. Certainly I did come across a fair whack of people that did no preparation for the interview and couldn't answer basic coding questions if their life depended on it.
Re:How about... (Score:4, Interesting)
Or only give visas for jobs that pay over $80K or so. We want the best and the brightest, not a flood of low level people that drive down wages for recent graduates, discouraging people from entering these fields.
Re:Yes... (Score:4, Interesting)
A lot of people blame the American standard of living for this. They say if we didn't have to pay so much for American workers then there wouldn't be outsourcing but its just BS. The cycle that the parent post outlined is a concise way of showing what is going on. The cycle is going to finally get broken when foreign workers CAN do the job and we are all left out of the loop.