Turkish Assembly Votes For Censoring of Web Sites

unity100 writes "CNN has some news about a recent development in Turkey where the Turkish assembly, totally out of line with Turkey's commitment to EU membership, has voted to have sites that 'insult to the founder of modern Turkey' censored from entire Turkish population. This, just about a month after the decision to censor YouTube was reached by the Turkish courts. 'On Thursday, lawmakers in the commission also debated whether the proposal should be widened to allow the Turkish Telecommunications Board to block access to any sites that question the principles of the Turkish secular system or the unity of the Turkish state -- a reference to Web sites with information on Kurdish rebels in Turkey.'"

Interesting

[EvilGoodGuy]

Let's see how the EU responds to this. I wonder if they will do anything at all, or if they will be activ eabout it. I haven't follwed their actions much at all since I live in America, but I have hopes for it.

Rights without responsibilites?

[Chmcginn]

It seems from a lot of Turkey's actions that they're not particularly committed to being a part of the EU. I'm sure they would like the trade benefits... Hell, China & the US would probably like the trade benefits, too. But that doesn't mean they really want the whole package.

Actually, I take that back. China & the US would like to have free trade going into Europe, but not coming out. That would be silly.

Attaturk

[wytcld]

Attaturk seems to have been one cool dude. What other nation of Muslims has in its Constitution that Islam must be kept out of the government? They owe that constitution to the man.

I'd like to see a study

[erroneus]

I know it'd be really hard to perform an unbiased study on the subject, but I'd really like to know, once and for all, if censorship is a good thing for humanity. Such a study should, of course, be targetted at all sorts of facets of the basic question and not just the one; questions such as "at what point is censorship good and where is it bad for society."

In "free society" we generally abhor censorship. What people are afraid if is pretty obvious: that people will form opinions in opposition to current leadership. But are there societal health benefits? Is there something actually good about it?

Re:I'd like to see a study

[EvilGoodGuy]

It would be interesting indeed. Reminds me of a debate I had in a class recently about gun control laws. (From what I recall) Guns in Japan are difficult to find, and crime rates are pretty low. But at the same time Nearly everyone in Switzerland has a gun, and crime rates are also low. I think culture, and expectations of the government hold a large part in what the public of an area need or want censorship wise.

Re:Turkey is the pinnacle of Islam.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, but this incident will have no such effect. The tendency in the EU is to establish similar control mechanisms. Certain websites are already unaccessible from within the EU. There's also a good chance that the soft- and hardware which does the blocking will come from a "western" country.

Cut with "East meets West" shit already

[unity100]

there is no such thing. In istanbul east meets east.

Re:Censorship works, and speaking of Holocausts...

[bibi-pov]

I guess that when your government starts to commemorate the hero of the nation during the "youth and sports day" using means only found in USSR (only [flickr.com] pictures [flickr.com] I found that partially describe what I've seen when I was there, think times 100 for a more accurate representation), if you think a bit about it: you're worried... Or you could just celebrate by going to the nearest stadium to see one of the many big shows the state organize with all the kids of the schools parading in matching colors. Only word that came to my mind all day long : "Big Brother is watching you"...

Re:Turkey is the pinnacle of Islam.

[toygar.ozturk]

What? Being a muslim Turkish, I know this thing has nothing to do with muslims in Turkey. It is just the Turkish constitution that this law is based on. In fact, the constitution is based on western ideologies anyways.

Re:Interesting

[init100]

Turkey should tell EU to go fuck themselves.

Why? It isn't really the EU begging Turkey to join the union, but rather Turkey begging the EU to become a member.

Turkey is not a theocracy

[vague_ascetic]

Just what do you base this claim upon? Turkey is a democracy. It has its shortcomings. Care to get into an argument about a two-party stranglehold's effect on democratic processes?

Turkey is vehemently opposed to being forced to admit to Armenian genocide a century ago. At the same time, as many Turkish journalists have pointed out, France's stand against Turkey's admission into the EU because of this is certainly lest than virtuous, given that they have never owned up to their own more recent history in Algeria [turkishweekly.net].

The PKK is a group recognised by the US State Department as a terrorist organisation. After its leader Abdullah Ocalan, was captured by Turkish Special Forces in Kenya, many governments and groups protested his trial as unfair. The main reasons for this was that the trial was held in the Ankara State Security Court, which is ruled by a three judge panel in which a military officer is included as one judge, and that after his arrest, Ocalan was unable to be reached by attorneys for ten days. Compare and contrast these judicial flaws with the obscene US treatment of detainees, and the Guantanamo Show Trials in which any defendant allegations of torture are considered classified information?

In regards to the YouTube incident mentioned; it was quickly ruled as an unconstitutional act by a Turkish court, and its import was greatly inflated in the Western media. Read a Turkish editorial on the matter:

Barin Kayaoglu, "Defending YouTube or Defending Atatürk? [turkishweekly.net]", Journal of Turkish Weekly, 17 March 2007

Try expanding your knowledge, instead of depending upon others' prejudices for you bigotry.

Not quite that simple

[denoir]

Turkey is a secular state with the military having the responsibility of keeping it that way. On the other side you have the population that yearn for an Islamic theocracy. Nationalism is sort of a compromise solution - something that appeals to the masses but doesn't threaten the secular system of the country.

Without draconian measures such as this censorship, the gap between the religious people and the guardians of secularism would rapidly increase to the point where you could expect an Islamic revolution like the one in Iran.

People forget how Ataturk made the country secular - by excessive bloodshed and repression. The majority of the Turks never wanted to be secular and are still very much opposed to it. The relevant question is: do you allow your democracy to self-implode? Do you allow the election of a party that will eliminate democracy completely - not to mention freedom of speech, secularism etc

So don't judge too harshly - they are in a tight spot.

Of course their whole arrangement makes joining the EU any time soon very unlikely. This in turn gives them a sense of rejection which pushes the country towards Islamic government. If on the other hand the EU supports their fight for secularism, which takes from as limits on civil liberties, it is betraying its own principles. Not an entirely trivial situation.

Well, you don't seem to know much about turkey eit

[SmallFurryCreature]

Well, you don't seem to know much about turkey either. Turkey is probably one of the few countries were you will find the "liberals" siding along with the military powers.

Yes, Turkey is indeed secular and extremely western (depends a bit on what part of the west you compare it to) "thanks" to the efforts of the man who would be come known as ataturk, father turk, for his efforts to turn unite Turkey and turn it into a modern nation.

The problem is this, Turkey is NOT a united country by itself. One turk is NOT the same as another. This is one of the biggest problems with for instance immigration to the west. Those people that are looked down upon in western europe are looked down upon in Turkey as well. It is roughly like how a Hillbilly will be frowned upon in Amsterdam by the locals AND by any visiting New Yorkers.

Turkey however so far has remain united thanks to its military leadership that comes down like a ton of bricks on anyone who dares to take Turkey in an undesired direction. The EU problem is that the Turkey that has the most change to join is also in a very real sense a military dictatorship. If as the EU insists the military reduces its influence then Turkey might very well become an islamic state.

Remember the riots in France about banning headscarfs? Similar stuff happens all over europe usually at the level of should headscarfs be allowed to be worn by public officials, like for instance in the courtsmthe legal system should be impartial, and at least in most european countries judges and other officials are therefore NOT allowed to show any signs of religion or politics. Muslims being allowed to wear headscarfs is therefore a direct attack on western traditions. So what is the case in Turkey? Well, they are banned and the military makes sue that that remains to be the way because they know what secular means.

So yes, turkey is a modern secular state, BUT what the grandparent might have been referring too is that it seems that IF the people in Turkey had a choice that might not remain the case.

Turkey is a democracy, but only so long as the people vote for the "correct" path as laid down by the military. It therefore is also very much a dictarorship, just that in some peoples eyes, that the dictatorships policies are desirable.

Turkey is like a man standing behind you with a gun, forcing you to make love to beautifull sexy women for a living. Yes, you might like making love to beautifull sexy women for a living BUT there is still a man with a gun behind you telling you what to do.

Say that this case was true for an entire nation, would you therefore conclude that this nation is entirely hetero OR might that country go homosexual the moment the man with the gun is removed.

EU efforts might very well result in them creating another muslim nation right on their doorstep.

The US has a city called philidelphia (or something) wich I believe is usually regarded as the most liberal of cities, (by US standards). Imagine this as Istanbul. Now imagine that phili is the capitol of the US and that the pentagon is making sure that phili politics are US politics. The US would seem to be far more "modern" then it really is, it might even allow gay marriages and such.

BUT the US ain't really that modern, there is the backward Bible Belt.

The father of all turks was a great man, BUT his rule is enforced through force. The question is what would happen when you remove that force.

Tell me, do americans in places like New York or LA etc feel that gay marriages should be outlawed? Nonetheless they are. Same with Turkey, just because Istanbul is the face of Turkey doesn't mean the body agrees with it.

Re:Turkey is the pinnacle of Islam.

[chill]

The difference is, if the E.U. has a setback -- like not getting their Constitution passed -- they will work it out without much fuss. Europe has evolved their civilization to a point where there really is little threat of one peoples exploding forth in a ravenous orgy of violence. World War II seems to have cured them of that.

If Turkey fails, it won't disintegrate, it will explode and the result will be a regional war and instability for more than a generation. Think what would happen if Turkey split into rival groups of Kurds, Armenians, Islamist Turks and Secular Turks. That can't be allowed to happen.

Europe isn't compromising any of their values. They would be guiding a member along the path, knowing the long term benefit of brining Turkey into the fold outweighs the short term benefits of holding the hard line on their "convictions".

This isn't without precedent in the E.U. There are nations who haven't fully aligned subsidies, trade policies, tariffs and other laws fully. But, progress is being made and the E.U. is thinking long term. Patience is a virtue.