Diebold to Withdraw from E-Voting?

ICA writes "It appears after years of criticism, Diebold may be ready to withdraw from electronic voting entirely. The company is concerned that this relatively small and marginally profitable unit is hurting the company's overall image."

What, a hasty switch from paper to electronic

[CrazyJim1]

Instead of just letting a company have their way with electronic voting, they really should have done research into the best voting method. I think on Slashdot we've reached a general consensus that there should at least be a verifyable paper trail that each voter can see their votes cast on paper. This would help in case of machine failure, or in case of voter fraud committed by the programmer. I'm no expert on electronic voting, but it doesn't take an expert to see there are flaws with the current electronic voting.

I hope they do..

[grommit]

Unfortunately for Diebold, I'm not of the opinion that if they can't properly make a secure voting machine, what is to say that they can make a secure ATM? Sure, they may be two completely different divisions within the same company but considering how much the top management has avoided doing the right thing to fix their voting machines, I doubt the ATM division would be much different.

Run!

[TheSpatulaOfLove]

Run Diebold Run! Dissolve the division and destroy the paper-trail before the Dems figure out what the real story was for the past couple elections!

Then What?

[necro81]

If it is true that Diebold is looking to dump this business unit (which hasn't been confirmed or denied - Diebold has only said that an announcement would come sometime), what then happens to all the machines (100,000+, i think)? Surely they, or whoever purchases the business unit, is still on the hook for support, updates, and whatever flak comes when the things don't work right. Those machines aren't going to simply vanish or instantly become secure and reliable. Some improvements can be made by completely changing the firmware, but a great deal of the criticism behind the voting machines was their lack of physical security and lack of a physical paper trail. Those are problems that can't be fixed without drastically altering the hardware itself. What company out there would want to buy this business unit and take that challenge on?

Re:thats interesting

[slykens]

What, Did the republicans find an other way to fix the elections?

I think they're taking the Democratic lead and will just appeal to the dead vote. You know, an FDR-esque "brains in every pot!"

On topic, they're probably right to do this. In my home state of Pennsylvania it is literally illegal for the touch-screen machine to produce a paper receipt so a black-box solution like what Diebold provides will always be open to criticism and question. They could provide a 100% fraud-free election and the loser will still complain. In my humble opinion the best solution is a touch-screen front end with a paper ballot printout that is then available for vote count verification. Run the count electronically, sure, but randomly verify counts of a few precincts and if anything is off you know you have to audit the whole thing. If somebody challenges the results you have a paper trail that was REVIEWED by the voter themselves before being placed in the ballot box.

Wait, wait.....

[LordPhantom]

....so by proving they -can't- fix their problems, they'll somehow convince the world that their -other- business (ATMs) are somehow reliable and secure?

Sure lack of profitability != bad product always, but I'm not sure how dumping their problem child is going to fix the problem now.

Re:thats interesting

[Marxist Hacker 42]

This is more about brand image than anything else- they're afraid people will start noticing the Diebold name on the ATM machines and stop using those banks, because Diebold has not been able to be trusted with voting.

After all, what's more important, voting or money?

That's one option.

[flaming error]

Another option for Diebold might be to fix the problems: print a paper confirmation, make motherboard access a little harder than a luggage lock. We don't ask for much.

Mission Accomplished

[Sir_Eptishous]

Hey, Diebold did their job and delivered Ohio [rollingstone.com].


Mission Accomplished.

Re:In other news....

[djh101010]

As my dad said, don't stake your reputation on something if you can't seem to get the hang of it; he was talking about sports, but it applies here as well. Diebold can't do this well; they should stop doing it and concentrate on their core business.

Ah, it's going so, so well, and then:

That, and Diebold has already accomplished what it's CEO promised to do - deliver the Presidency to the Republicans.

Funny - I would have expected that sort of talk to end after the latest congressional elections. Or is this one of those "only bring it up when we don't like the result" kind of things.

Re:Ignorant Diebold managers destroyed the company

[Grishnakh]

Unfortunately, it's rather difficult to choose what brand ATM you use. However, it's certainly possible to complain to your bank or credit union about their choice of Diebold ATMs, and it's also certainly possible that the people at banks/CUs who decide which ATM vendor to purchase from may decide against Diebold based on all the negative publicity.

Re:I hope they do..

[ajlitt]

5. Competition

...probably not

[Overzeetop]

These will always be low bidder projects with thin margins and lousy propects. Look how well the mechanical voting machine company did.

Seriously, you can't make money on something which is (a) an expense which cannot garner any revenue and (b) which is used extremely infrequently.

Re:I hope they do..

[HaeMaker]

...and everyone involved has a vested interest to make sure transactions proceed in a secure, reliable, verifiable manner. Voting is not the same situation as those with a vested interest can benefit from a insecure system.

Re:Then What?

[Grishnakh]

Welcome to the way corporations work, and how they get to avoid responsibility for their mistakes, unlike normal people.

If Diebold really wants to divest itself of this division, they have two options: 1) sell it to some other sucker, or 2) spin it off as a separate corporation.

1) is the most attractive option in most cases, since Diebold would get paid for the division. However, if they can't find a sucker with the cash needed, this option's out. As you pointed out, whoever buys this division could be setting themselves up for a lot of problems.

2) is the other option. All they have to do is spin off the division as a separate company, just like Ma Bell was split up into multiple companies, or like Motorola spun off On Semiconductor and Freescale Semiconductor. Then, the new "Evoting Corporation" company is solely responsible for supporting these machines and any other problems they have. And if the new company can't handle it, they just go bankrupt and dissolve. This will leave all the government entities that invested in Diebold SOL, and Diebold will get off scott-free.

It's too bad companies are allowed to do things like this, while individuals are not. For instance, if I commit a heinous crime and don't want to spend the rest of my life in prison, why can't I just cut off a finger and assign that piece of me the responsibility for the crime? I could live out my life without a finger, absolved of my crime, while the finger rots in prison.

To add to that

[phorm]

Bank: End-user receipts are allowed and in fact welcomed. When you make a transaction it spits out a little piece of paper that shows your balance and/or banking history

Voting Machine: End user is not to receive a paper receipt, mainly on the basis that doing so could further vote-buying/pressuring/forcing/etc (i.e. a given group threatening dire consequences if voted Y doesn't come out with a slip saying he/she voted for "X")

Re:thats interesting

[Maestro4k]

This is more about brand image than anything else- they're afraid people will start noticing the Diebold name on the ATM machines and stop using those banks, because Diebold has not been able to be trusted with voting.

That fear is justified, I won't use my bank's ATMs because they're made by Diebold. Given all the horrendous security gaffs Diebold has made over their voting machines (like having a picture of the key that opens them up on their website) I'm not comfortable using my debit card in anything they've designed. How do I know that the ATM was treated with any higher level of security on Diebold's end? Frankly I'm convinced there are just as many security issues with their ATMs, that they just haven't gotten as much bad publicity yet. I'm not likely to trust their equipment in the future either, and if I was ever in a position to be buying their products I'll certainly chose a competitor.

After all, what's more important, voting or money?

Voting, but I have to deal with money year-round whereas we only have elections once a year at most here. Thankfully we don't have Diebold voting machines, but I'll still be avoiding their ATMs. Any company with their security track record doesn't deserve my trust or business.

Re:OT: Secure Tallying

[Twinkle]

"What we really need to do electronic voting"...

let me stop you right there.

Re:When I called for support

[RxScram]

Personally, I like the quote that is attributed to Joseph Stalin...

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing.
Those who count the votes decide everything."

Err... correction: I don't like the quote, I just think that it is sadly true.

Someone's been abusing mod priveledge

[GodInHell]

From the article quoted by the parent:

Even worse, many electronic machines don't produce a paper record that can be recounted when equipment malfunctions - an omission that practically invites malicious tampering. "Every board of election has staff members with the technological ability to fix an election," Ion Sancho, an election supervisor in Leon County, Florida, told me. "Even one corrupt staffer can throw an election. Without paper records, it could happen under my nose and there is no way I'd ever find out about it. With a few key people in the right places, it would be possible to throw a presidential election."

Just because it's a conspiracy theory, dosen't mean it's flamebait.

-GiH

Re:In other news....

[ajs]

That, and Diebold has already accomplished what it's CEO promised to do - deliver the Presidency to the Republicans.

Funny - I would have expected that sort of talk to end after the latest congressional elections. Or is this one of those "only bring it up when we don't like the result" kind of things.

You seem to have not paid attention. There were wide, and well substantiated claims of Diebold problems in that election, many of which are open to interpretation as to whether or not they were fraudulent, and if so if they were politically motivated (as opposed to just covering for incompetence). The problem was that the elections were so overwhelmingly in favor of the Democrats that these irregularities had little impact.

Here's the thing that bothers me about this, though: EVERYONE should be upset when someone says something like that. His statement should be read as, "I will use the Republican party to tear down democracy." Republicans should take that as a slap in the face, and should be MORE outraged than Democrats! This isn't an us-vs-them issue. If ANY party gains control over voting, EVERYONE loses. Don't imagine for a second that such a change would benefit the core values of the Republicans. As soon as entrenched politicians have no one to answer to, and no means of removal, they will serve their own needs (desires) alone. This has been demonstrated by members of every political organization (regardless of their views) that has ever been given the opportunity to go bad.

This is not a partisan issue. This is one man making statements that are darned close to treasonous and certainly a smear on the reputation of any party that accepts his support thereafter.

Re:Rats Leaving the Sinking Ship

[Coryoth]

Personally, I see no other purpose in the design of Diebold voting systems other than to facilitate fraud. Seriously, there just aren't any really good protections built into the whole device.

I have to say that quotes about attribution, malice, and incompetence come to mind. It is certainly true that the Diebold system is horribly insecure. On the other hand, it also bears a lot of the hallmarks of something thrown together by a few incompetent engineers in a couple of weeks. I mean really, the central tabulator running on a half assed little Access database? The insecurity of that is simply down to Access and how painfully cobbled together the system is - the sort of thing a VB programmer would whip up over the weekend. If you were designing things for fraud then presumably you'd build something that looks secure but has an elegantly hidden backdoor. I guess one can make arguments regarding "plausible deniability" and say that a shoddy and incompetent system can be denied as just shoddy and incompetent which an elegantly backdoored secure system is a smoking gun... but still. I'd like a little more than just the sheer cobbled together, half assed, done on the cheap, aspects of the system before I go concluding malice was involved. Right now incompetence still looks like a pretty good explanation.

Re:thats interesting

[nuzak]

> In my home state of Pennsylvania it is literally illegal for the touch-screen machine to produce a paper receipt

And for good reason: the only thing worse than not having a receipt is having one you can take with you. The machine needs to be /designed/ so that you can look at the receipt but leave the polling place with no more than you came in with plus an "I voted" sticker.

I prefer the optech systems where you just mark up a very unambiguous physical ballot and place it in a reader. Like anything else, those can be gamed too, but at least the ballots are there as a final authority.

My guess is that Diebold's exit will simply hand the company off to a buyer who will continue to run it in the same unaccountable way, but during the interim uncertainty, Sequoia, ES&S, and Optech will make sales. Also, keep in mind that ES&S has had more than its fair share of scandals as well.

Re:In other news....

[Anonymous Coward]

ATM machines are non-anonymous and require a pin. And if an ATM machine wasn't deducting/adding money to accounts correctly, i would hope you would notice a descrepancy in your account. Not being able to verify that your vote was added to the right tally is the problem with voting, not necessarily evoting.

I wonder if there's going to BE a next election...

[Fantastic Lad]

Is the Bush regime really planning on leaving office at the end of his term?

Seriously.

All it would take is another well-timed 9-11, or a total market collapse, or some other disaster at the right time, and I can easily see Bush declaring himself Emperor for Life.

Either that, or the next guy will be even worse. "The Prezinator" anyone?

Ugh. In in world where the RIAA has guys with flak jackets and machine guns, any crazy thing can happen.

-FL