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Comments: 197 +-   Texas Bill For Open Documents on Tuesday February 06 2007, @09:15PM

Posted by kdawson on Tuesday February 06 2007, @09:15PM
from the et-tu-texas? dept.
software
government
politics
Ditesh Kumar tips us to a blog entry by Sam Hiser noting a bill filed in Texas that would require state agencies to conduct their work in an open document format. After Microsoft's grueling battle against ODF in Massachusetts, bluest of blue states, it must be galling to face te same fight in the reddest of the red. Hiser notes that the bill includes a rigorous and sound definition of an open document format, which ODF would meet but Microsoft's current OOXML submission would not.
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  • Reddest? (Score:5, Funny)

    by greg_barton (5551) * <greg_barton@NOSpAM.yahoo.com> on Tuesday February 06 2007, @09:18PM (#17915512) Homepage Journal

    ...it must be galling to face te same fight in the reddest of the red.
    Obviously you've never been to Alabama.
    • Utah: 71% Bush in 04
      Alabama: 63% Bush

    • Re:Reddest? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Rimbo (139781) <rimbosity@nosPaM.sbcglobal.net> on Wednesday February 07 2007, @12:38AM (#17916998) Homepage Journal
      Or Austin, for that matter.

      Austin's about as red as the Santa Fe sky on a clear afternoon, or Australia's Coral Coast. Add to that a bunch of tech industry, a huge university and about 2000 miles between it and Redmond, and this is hardly surprising.

      Austin's where I first heard about Linux... in January of 1992. Slackware was on sale in the University co-op a year or so later. And it's where I first used USENET, IRC and internet e-mail, way back in 1991.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Ryan Amos (16972)
      Texas is conservative, but it's more of a libertarian, small government kind of conservativism. Bush won by a large margin here because he used to be the governor and (this was probably more of it) east-cost snobs like Al Gore and John Kerry are despised here.

  • Hell frozen over? (Score:5, Funny)

    by DaveM753 (844913) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @09:22PM (#17915546) Homepage
    I never thought I'd say something like this, but GO TEXAS!

    • Re:Hell frozen over? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by The_Wilschon (782534) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @01:14AM (#17917242) Homepage
      Indeed Go Texas!

      If you live in Texas, WRITE TO YOUR LEGISLATORS ! You can find out who to write to at the Texas Legislature Online's "Who Represents Me?" [state.tx.us] page. In my case, there were direct links to my Texas State Senator's and Texas State Representative's webpages, and I used the "email me!" type links I found there. If you don't want to take the time to write something yourself, you are welcome to use the same short letter I wrote:

      I recently learned that a bill (SB 446) had been introduced to the Texas Legislature which would require all electronic state documents to be stored in a format described by an open standard. I am writing to lend my overwhelming support to this bill, and to express my hope that, if given the opportunity, you will vote in favor of this measure.

      Open standards for documents ensure a number of things. First, the records of our great state will be preserved in a form accessible to posterity. You have no doubt heard the aphorism "Those who do not learn their history are doomed to repeat it," and how can our descendants learn our history if it is locked away in a format that can no longer be supported. It would be as if we had recorded all our state documents on 8-track tapes. Second, those who cannot afford the more expensive platforms and applications required for closed format documents would no longer be restricted from participating in the government (of the people, by the people, for the people) of the State of Texas.

      Please, ensure that both the present and the future of our state can participate and learn from our government, and support this measure to require open formats for all state documents.
      • I am writing to ask that you will vote in favor of bill (SB 446), introduced by Juan "Chuy" Hinojosa, which would require all electronic state documents to be stored in a format described by an open standard

        As an IT professional, document formats play an important role in my work (and, consequently, my contribution to the Texas economy). Open standards and open formats ensure that critical information will always be available to citizens, but they also make it possible for government operations to be more

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by sumdumass (711423)
        That story along with the study is a little misleading. If you look past the sensationalism and to the meat of it, you will quickly find that the intercultural Development Research Association is only concerned with students who recieve a diploma in public schools and compare that to enrolment from a previous set of years back to 8th or 9th grade. On the surface, this looks sound but it doesn't count the students who leave the state and finish school somewhere else nor does it count the student who leave th

  • Check the author (Score:5, Funny)

    by ZPWeeks (990417) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @09:24PM (#17915562)
    It may be Texas, but the bill was filed by Rubén Hinojosa, a Democrat representative from the U.S. House. They'll shoot it down. (unless Cheney misses and hits MS OOXML by accident.)
    • It may be Texas, but the bill was filed by Rubén Hinojosa, a Democrat representative from the U.S. House. They'll shoot it down.
      ...and that's why George Washington said to stay far away from political parties. I love how well America listened.

    • Re:Check the author (Score:5, Funny)

      by pallmall1 (882819) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @10:02PM (#17915866)

      They'll shoot it down.
      You're probably right. A $500 Million Microsoft datacenter [lockergnome.com] in San Antonio, Texas probably also means Microsoft's OOXML for Texas documents. Ballmer aims his furniture better than Chaney aims his shotgun. :)

      • Re:Check the author (Score:5, Interesting)

        by yo_tuco (795102) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:16PM (#17916424)
        "Texas probably also means Microsoft's OOXML for Texas documents.

        Some years ago Microsoft threated the city of Huston [usatoday.com] to sign up for a multiyear, $12 million software licensing plan or face an audit exposing the city's use of software it hadn't paid for.

        But as it turned out, Huston had more than enough proof of purchase seals. And then they voted to dump Microsoft Office in favor of SimDesk because of Microsoft's gestapo tactics. I don't know if that's still true today and I doubt SimDesk supports OOXML. So not all parts of Texas are friends of Microsoft.

  • Let's get the ball rolling! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mrchaotica (681592) * on Tuesday February 06 2007, @09:30PM (#17915622)

    With Massachusetts, bunches of foreign governments, and now Texas realizing the importance of document formats that are Free, future proof, and equally accessible to all citizens (including those who don't use Windows), I think it's about time the other forty-eight states introduced similar bills of their own. I just wrote an email suggesting such to my representative; now it's your turn!

      • Wow, that's great -- that bill has exactly (almost word-for-word) the same four requirements as the Texas one! You should submit that as a story -- if the Texas one made the front page, this should too.

  • I happen to work for a company that builds schools. This change would affect my work to some degree as well. I just want to know who I can write to in order to support the move. It would also be helpful if someone more clever than myself wrote up a letter from which I can extact key points and write my own. (If hundreds of people wrote the same letter, I think it wouldn't be as meaningful somehow.)

    In any case, I'm ready to start my letter-writing campaign in support of this move.

    • Re:I'm a Texan! Who do I write to? (Score:5, Informative)

      by mrchaotica (681592) * on Tuesday February 06 2007, @09:43PM (#17915716)

      Well, I'm not a Texan, but since it's a bill in the Texas state Senate, I figure you probably ought to contact your state Senator.

      Also, since it's going to have to get out of committee before anyone else sees it (unless your state government is unusual), you could contact the other Senators who make up whichever committee it goes into -- which, based on a 10-second scan of the list of committees, I'm guessing is this one [state.tx.us]. But I could be wrong.

    • You could write to Rick Perry and ask him to executive order it into policy. (Except where religious or personal reasons prevent.)

  • "Red" and "blue" is irrelevant (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2007, @09:44PM (#17915718)
    This just goes to show that Free Software is not a democrat or republicrat thing. (Remember, Microsoft itself is in one of the 'bluer' states.)

    The real issue here is freedom, and the benefits that can be derived from it: Better security, lower upfront costs, less obsolescence, open formats, and the ability to choose between software packages and providers, rather than just taking whatever Microsoft shoves down your throat.
  • To me, this is one of the very good pieces of news this year. As the introduction mentions Massachusetts is one of the bluest of blue states and Texas is on the "other" side.

    Question: How will each of these states' approach to this `open formats' "problem" be similar and how will it be different if one dares to compare and of course speculate?

  • State-sponsored OSS in Texas is reality already (Score:5, Informative)

    by pongo000 (97357) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @09:45PM (#17915736)
    Unfortunately, it's in the form of a recommendation [state.tx.us], but it's better than nothing. In a nutshell, it directs Texas state agencies and higher education institutions to consider OSS for all IT procurements. I believe it was originally the brainchild of a Dallas-area senator named John Corona.

    I referenced it quite often while pushing for OSS-based IT implementation at the college I was teaching at...most administrators were ignorant that this even existed.
    • The Texas higher education institutions already make heavy use of OSS. Our budgets don't allow us to afford anything else....except, of course, for UT Austin who can walk across the street to wine, dine, and whine the Texas Legislature.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by pongo000 (97357)
        Actually, it's been my experience that many are still in the dark ages when it comes to OSS. Imagine one of the 5 largest community college districts in the country still pushing proprietary (and patented!) online education at the tune of millions of dollars a year in taxpayer money. Four-years are no different (ever try to find a LyX layout/LaTeX class for a disseration? La-what?)

        I've presented at several regional (Texas) conferences on various aspects of OSS in higher ed, and have talked to many, many
  • What's Slashdot going to do now that it has used the reddest of the red and the bluest of the blue for states? Northest of the north? Bestest of the best? Openest of the open?

  • OOXML and ISO approval (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2007, @09:50PM (#17915772)
    Hi folks,

    Microsoft went for ISO fast-track approval which allows only one month for dissenting countries to speak out (and with 6000 pages in the spec it's not enough time -- there hasn't been any public standardisation prior to this fast track as is normal with fast-tracked standards).

    Anyway, as I understand it there only needs to be one single vote against in order to force a fast-tracked proposal down the long and arduous path of open evaluation, analysis, and justification. Canada and Britain have voted against Microsoft. Thanks Canada, thanks Britain!

    OOXML is now considerably more shakey with governments around the world, and other countries, like Texas.

    -- Matt Carter

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      ... and a lot of other countries too (several out of the 19 who responded). Seems like a new record! See http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/articl e.php?story=20070206145620473 [consortiuminfo.org]

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by nbritton (823086)
      "Microsoft went for ISO fast-track approval which allows only one month for dissenting countries to speak out (and with 6000 pages in the spec it's not enough time -- there hasn't been any public standardization prior to this fast track as is normal with fast-tracked standards)."

      That's nice Microsoft but we already have a published ISO standard (ISO/IEC 26300:2006) for "XML schema for office applications and its semantics". One standard is enough, thanks but no thanks. If you want you may propose revisi

      • Texas is not a country, not matter how much Texans would like to think it is.

        I can see you've never been there.

  • Ah'd like to make it clear as the wide blue sky that Ah am indeed for open documents. We've got to stop those Mahcruhsowft bush-whackers afore they've done rustled off all ahr fahn computers. Wah, Ah'd even make common cause with them damyankees from Barstn. Any foe of Redmond Bill is durn tootin' a friend of mine!

    Thank y'all fer yer time.
  • Texas is a conservative state and conservative values call for open and unfettered competition. This is what I expected would happen.
  • Keep in mind Dell, which has been noted recently for the N-Series computers, is also located near Austin. The concept that the incredibly liberal capital Austin introducing progressive bills isn't terribly suprising. If this had been a city council proposition in a small town an hour outside of San Antonio or Tyler, this would be news.
    • Except that if it was a smaller city it wouldn't be nearly as relevant. Your point is valid, though.

  • ODF Converter... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by friedmud (512466) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @10:15PM (#17915982) Homepage
    I hope Microsoft's newly released ODF converter doesn't mess with Texas's plans... a partly-free solution just doesn't cut it in my eyes.

    For me, this is all about the future. Locking up government documents in proprietary formats is a disaster for future generations. We should ideally be scratching them out on cave walls...

    Friedmud
  • Documents open you!

    Yeehah!

  • Red State? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by cary67 (1060860) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @10:35PM (#17916136)
    I'm not sure why being a so-called "red state" means that it's people or government agencies are supporters of MS. What does that have to do with anything? Spare me the drivel about the Bush administration caving on the MS anti-trust case. Maybe they did. Maybe I agree. However, the sweeping generalization made by the original poster is simply unsupported. Instead, I would point you to the fact that you're talking about the people who brought you the Boston Tea Party and The Alamo here. It's no surprise. These are Americans standing up against 21st century tyranny. Government users are BIG business for MS and YOUR tax dollars are paying for it. Texans, voice your support for this bill today!

  • Texas is heavy on computers (Score:3, Informative)

    by bahwi (43111) <incoming@josephguhlin. c o m> on Wednesday February 07 2007, @12:14AM (#17916788) Homepage
    Say what you will about the political climate here(very red) but a lot of stuff is online and sped up by computers. Last year when I incorporated I used the online website, paid the $300 fee with my debit card, and the paperwork was done and I was sent everything with the seal and all the appropriate numbers within two hours via e-mail in PDF format, completely official and everything. Paying corp taxes couldn't be easier(few that there be), ditto with unemployment. If I have to do anything that affects my corp, pretty much everything is online and an option to be filed. And it's all done by the state.

    Getting my federal EIN meant going through a third party company, paying a fee(only $20, so I figured might as well instead of waiting for the feds to get it to me in a few weeks by doing it on paper). It works really well. I renew my drivers license online(every other renewal only, gotta get new pics at some point) and my vehicle registration is always done online. In terms of computing it's a very progressive state. Much of it is very basic HTML so it works in whatever browser you use it with.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      You are quite the fool to believe that OpenXML is as documented and implementable as ODF. MS believes that documenting a function as "Should work like Word-97 spacing bug" as sufficient.

      That is not a standard, that is just a list of all the bugs in the MS code, which no one should really try to emulate.

    • Re:Why not OpenXML? (Score:5, Informative)

      by mrchaotica (681592) * on Tuesday February 06 2007, @10:35PM (#17916138)

      The author is pretty dismissive about OpenXML, yet doesn't explain why OpenXML wouldn't meet the criteria.

      Okay, then I will instead:

      OpenXML doesn't meet the criteria because parts of it are patented. Besides, even if it weren't patented parts of the "standard" essentially say "re-implement the behavior of Word" which, for obvious reasons, is entirely unreasonable and should also disqualify it.

      By then OpenXML will probably be an ISO standard...

      If this post [slashdot.org] above yours is accurate, no it won't.

      "published without restrictions or royalties": OpenXML already fulfills this today

      No, you're wrong. Patents qualify as restrictions.

    • Chances are that OpenXML will get shot down in the ISO process. It's not going fast-track thanks to Britain, and the slow track process goes through the same committee that's just done ODF, and ODF is better in every way than OpenXML. Everybody on the committee except for the Microsoft representative is going to be looking for anything that they should send over to OASIS for ODF 1.2, not looking to approve a conflicting standard with no different useful design goals.

      Of course, it would probably be wise for

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by daeg (828071)
      Have you actually read any of the OOXML "specs"?

      Ecma 376 section 2.8.2.16 (page 1541) "sig (Supported Unicode Subranges and Code Pages)" describes the <w:sig> element whose attributes are all bitmasks. For example, take the attribute csb1:

      "Specifies a four digit hexadecimal encoding of the upper 32 bits of the 64-bit code-page bit field that identifies which specific character sets or code pages are supported by the parent font"

      Also, do you want attributes in your "open" format to be "useWord2002Tabl

    • Re:Why not OpenXML? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by ozmanjusri (601766) <aussie_bob&hotmail,com> on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:04PM (#17916368) Journal
      By then OpenXML will probably be an ISO standard

      No, probably not. Microsoft's attempt at a swift flanking move on our stampede to format freedom has (temporarily) been blocked http://www.computing.co.uk/itweek/news/2173717/ope n-standards-bodies-call-halt [computing.co.uk].

      "published without restrictions or royalties": OpenXML already fulfills this today

      Good point. Today yes, OpenXML meets that criteria, but tomorrow may be a different story.

      "fully and independently implemented by multiple software providers on multiple platforms without any intellectual property reservations for necessary technology": Once Novell did it for OpenXML, there will be three vendors (Novell, Microsoft and the open-source project doing the ODF-OpenXML converter) on multiple platforms (Windows & all platforms OpenOffice runs on). Sounds like OpenXML has this one in the pocket as well.

      Novell is in Microsoft's pocket, and Microsoft is funding the ODF-OpenXML converter. Besides, you forgot to allow for the "without any intellectual property reservations for necessary technology" part, which is not guaranteed with OpenXML.

      But for all skeptics, once OpenXML is an ISO standard in 6 months or so, this will be a given.

      We'd better wait until then before adopting it then. Mean time, ODF does all of the above, but without any of the "gotchas".

      By the way, congratulations on writing a post which very cleverly skirts all the questionable bits of Microsoft's OpenXML push without actually lying. Care to disclose who you work for?

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by killjoe (766577)
            Probably because MS did and does pay people to post favorible comments about them here and elsewhere (including wikipeadia).

            Besides who would shill for a corporation without getting paid? You don't see me posting about how great mazdas are at a forum about BMWs do you?

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by wall0159 (881759)
      "MS isn't the only company that uses Anti-Competitive methods or tries to lock users into their product. ipods anyone?"

      there's a big difference between DRM that's specific to a device (that's right - tracks from the ITMS are the _only_ lock-in to the ipod, which also plays mp3 and AAC - open formats), and software that results in lock-in on content that you create yourself.

      I'm no fan of DRM or the ITMS, but the lock-in to the ipod is no worse than that of any other music player!

    • Re:Makes Sense (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sumdumass (711423) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @12:28AM (#17916918) Journal
      When the government start using Ipod only files to distribute and interact with documents I need in order to do business in the state, I'll start bitching a bit louder about the Ipod. But I shouldn't need to purchase a $400 program to interact with a state on a fundemental level. I shouldn't have to do this to do business in the state either, even if the business is with others in the state and we just need to get permit aprovals and such.

      And I know, there are alternative ways to interact. But the end result would be either pony up the dough or suffer an unfair competitive advantage to your competitors because of the states decision that is funded by my tax dollars.

      And the refusial to pay, isn't even a decision over the money needed, it is about principle. Sooner or later we will have enough little $400 for this program, 200 for that program and so on. Before long, a person will have to have thoughsands of dollars just for programs to do business. And it might not stop at doing business, what about complaints and such. Shoudl a person need to pay a microsoft tax to fill out a complaint form or ask the state/city to fix something they should have already fixed? I know, I'm rambling. Your point is still valid but i see it in different levels. Hopfully other can too.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by mackyrae (999347)
      At the Congressional Internet Caucus last week there was a group from tux.org (affiliation of LUGs) with a table demonstrating how thanks to open standards like for the web, Linux, Mac, and Windows computers can all communicate just fine. They were there to push for open standards. I hung out with them for a lot of it (though the digitalfreedom.org people were cool too), and there were a lot of people from the Senate asking about why open standards are important (though it WAS in the Hart Building). Ther

      • Re:What do legislators really want? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by MoxFulder (159829) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @12:31AM (#17916936) Homepage

        Microsoft had a rethink of the strategy they were using, dropped the prices for the government, threw in some more support for servers and all sorts of other things and all of a sudden, the government has a change of mind and also givs MS some tax breaks.. go figure.
        You (and others) often use this as evidence that open source initiatives don't really work. In my mind, that's not really clear. I mean, in your example, competition from open source has in fact forced Microsoft to reduce prices, improve support, and maybe provide better docs. Of course you and I would prefer Microsoft get dumped all at once, but I believe that progress has being made. The fact that government initiatives in favor of open source have forced Microsoft to negotiate better deals DEMONSTRATES that open source has influence and strength.
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