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Comments: 250 +- Politics: Maryland Fights to Keep E-voting on Friday September 22 2006, @02:06PM
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by
Zonk
on Friday September 22 2006, @02:06PM
from the fight-for-the-right-to-have-no-rights dept.
from the fight-for-the-right-to-have-no-rights dept.
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crystalattice writes "Apparently Maryland election officials never have computer problems. That's why they're fighting so hard to keep their Diebold e-voting machines. Washington Post reporter Marc Fisher received nothing but bad attitudes, dodges, and excuses when he attempted to discuss the issue with the state elections administration and Diebold." From the article: "I asked the state's elections administrator, Linda Lamone, whether Maryland wasn't just a bit too quick to adopt electronic voting. Doesn't the computer at your desk ever freeze up on you? 'No,' she replied. Never? 'No.' But surely people in your office have had that experience? 'No.' (Maybe we've found the solution to Maryland's voting problem: Everybody head on down to Linda Lamone's office, where the machines work 100 percent of the time.)"
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could be... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:could be... (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh, e-Voting! It uses computers, so it must be better!
When beliefs held this way are challenged, the response is hostility, not a rational defence of said beliefs.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I've seen Linux lock up as well, but it's generally been to PCI issues (such as the SB Live & SMP fiasco a few years ago), ATI's proprietary drivers, or attempting to run certain OpenGL apps with ATI cards.
Re:could be... (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I put it to you that you are insufficiently experienced. I have crashed every major desktop operating system ever released more than once, and many of them I've crashed many versions of them as well. Some of them, particularly AmigaDOS, MacOS 6-9, Windows 95 through ME, Windows 2000, and Windows XP I've had situations where I was able to crash them more than daily just by using certain applications. These machines were stable otherwise. But one thing that I tr
Bad device drivers cause crashes (Score:4, Informative)
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Beware of conclusions (Score:5, Funny)
Me: Have you ever seen a computer crash?
Her: [pause] No.
Me: Have you heard of any derailed mag-lev trains in your life?
Her: Never.
Me: Is my friend's TMS-600 hot plasma cannon capabable of penetrating your fuzzy-logic-selective personal EM force-shield?
Her: Sir! I am insulted! Absolutely not! *slap*
With that, I have concluded that old Victorian England had amazingly reliable computers that never crashed, mag-lev trains that haven't seen a single fatality for at least twenty years, and personal defense technology is so advanced that it can defeat even anti-armor weaponry. I don't know how the human race has fallen so far in the last hundred years or so, but John has assured me that we won't have to worry about that in 34 years.
So yes, I can see how the office mentioned in the article has never had a computer crash.
Solomon
Parent
so.... (Score:4, Funny)
Bets? (Score:5, Funny)
Ad Campaign (Score:4, Funny)
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Remember... (Score:5, Interesting)
MOD PARENT DOWN -9999999999 (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not so simple. (Score:5, Interesting)
Um (Score:3, Insightful)
You claim that what we're seeing here is an unpopular incumbent trying to discourage people from voting at all by waiting until the last minute and then trying to raise questions about the voting process.
So why not just do what the Washington Post reporter suggested and the allegedly unpopular governor appears to be now advocating, and switch to paper
And I ask you again: (Score:3, Insightful)
I will opine that you would indeed not be, and that there are many who would be quick to defend anyone who is non-Republican, and vilify Republicans in any part of this process, even if it conflicts with their other beliefs (e.g., that electronic voting is bad in general).
If electronic voting is so horrible, and indeed, if there really are active conspiracie
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And it's not bait, and then getting huffed up at "someone": this was that very same poster responding to by question. I'm literally astounded by the number of highly moderated posts in this story *defending* keeping Diebold e-voting in Maryland, given the utter hatred for e-voting in general and Diebold in particular tha
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Which means Ehrlich is in trouble now, and the polls reflect that: he's losing 51-44 and 49-42 in the most recent polls.
He's going to need every advantage if he's going to win. In fact, he's almost certain to lose, but his lieutenant go
They may have good reasons (Score:5, Informative)
1. The election officials don't believe that they can re-gear the process in time for the general election, which is only 6 weeks away. I certainly don't think they can pull it off, given their record so far.
2. The Democratic leadership is convinced that Republican Gov. Erlich is trying to suppress the vote in this majority Democratic state by raising fears about the process. They have good reason to believe this, as he has consistently fought efforts to make it easier for people to vote. Yesterday he urged everyone to use absentee ballots, yet last year he fought efforts to make it easier for people to use those ballots. He also vetoed a bill to allow early voting, which is popular in working districts (mostly Democratic) because some people have trouble getting to the polls on Election Day. When the legislature overrode his veto, he fought the law in court and won.
So as much as I hate and distrust the machines (I'm applying for an absentee ballot myself), I'm on the side of the Dem leadership and the election people (a bipartisan group).
Re:They may have good reasons (Score:4, Insightful)
I get it now.
Also, I call total bullshit on this. These machines are either bad, or not. You can't have it both ways. I'm surprised at how many are now coming up with justifications to still vilify only the Republicans in this process, regardless of whether they want - or want to get rid of - e-voting.
(By the way, I'm not a Republican, didn't vote for Bush, etc.)
Parent
Re:They may have good reasons (Score:5, Insightful)
If the tables were turned here (e.g., Democratic governor fighting to remote e-voting and Republicans fighting to keep it), would you still be justifying keeping Diebold e-voting in Maryland in the same way you just did?
You're quick to defend non-Republicans, because, like many, you want to believe that Republicans' only motivation is illegitimately securing power at all costs and with any dirty tricks possible, and coming up with all kinds of justifications that support that view (like trying to keep working class communities away from the polls, creating fear about the process (which helps only the Republican governor how?), etc.) Well, I have news for you: the Democrats have done, and do, the same things.
(And again, lest the normal commenters who respond to my posts forget, I am not a Republican and voted at least 2:1 Democratic to anything else in the last two elections.)
Parent
Re:They may have good reasons (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is it unsurprising that in a group that traditionally lambasts e-voting as essentially a Republican conspiracy to steal elections at every turn would take every opportunity to moderate up the first post justifying *not* getting rid of e-voting when the Republican governor actually wants to go back to all paper ballots?
If this were a Democratic governor wanting to get rid of e-voting and Republicans fighting it, ask yourself: would a post like the parent really be modded up? Think about that and give yourself an honest answer.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So.. In the event that it turns out that all the voting machines are controlled by Red China, they have no backup? Even though the backup would be red pencils, some ballots and cardboard boxes with some security tape thrown in for good measure?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
To re-gear the process for a paper ballot, they'd require:
A: A bunch of metal boxes with a slot in the top, and a padlock.
B: A slip of paper for every voter with the names and parties of the candidates printed on it.
C: Pencils. Lots of pencils.
D: A bunch of volunteers willing to count those slip
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sick of this _crap_ argument. This discussion isn't new since the primaries. This discussion has been going on (in one form or another, and in one state or another) since well before the 2004 election. All we've gotten is "we don't have time to fix this before... (the primaries|the general|the
Here's your problem (Score:3, Insightful)
This is probably the number-one reason why electronic voting machines aren't ready for the real world, probably never will be. People understand and can work with paper; no fancy training necessary.
What will happen if people who were trained can't make it on election day (sickness, car accident, etc.)?
I'm not worried about them not working (Score:3, Insightful)
Thus I don't care if her machine locks up or not. Stupid question that shouldn't have been asked as it sidetracks the issue.
*sigh* (Score:4, Insightful)
Sadly, I think the tech-savvy readers are the majority of people thinking this whole thing is a really bad idea. Unfortunately, there's not enough of us with deep pockets and loud enough voices to stop this potential train wreck in time.
Kudos Washington Post (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's start dragging these guys over hot coals, there's absolutely no practical reason unless you're trying to rig an election (in my opinion) to switch to e-voting.
Maryland's Governor doesn't want Diebold (Score:4, Funny)
If you have to work around the clock to make the voting machines usable, then there was a SEVERE problem with them when they came from the manufacturer. Rushing to get them operable before election, instead of scrapping them entirely, is pretty crazy. There's more.
Linda Lamone (Score:5, Informative)
Lamone was appointed by Democrats in the State House and has been backed by them even as she keeps giving them Hideous advice. Maryland's governor is a Republican and a great deal of this shoving back and forth over the machines has devolved to party wrangling. This is the interesting part about the whole e-voting situation. In some states poor systems are being instated and backed by Republicans (Ohio, California, etc.) In other states the very same systems are being doggedly defended by Democrats (Maryland, Pennsylvania, etc.). In some states such as Maryland it is Republican governors who are taking the lead in cleaning things up and in others it is Democratic governors like Bill Richardson of New Mexico who are taking charge. Ultimately its not about party nationally but local party power. Who ever was in power was sweet talked by the manufacturers who, at the end of the day, just want the billions of tax dollars that Bob Ney made us spend on this.
There are some great videos of Linda Lamone on Youtube:
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't want to admit error... (Score:3, Insightful)
Ditching e-voting at this stage would require Ms. Lamone to effectively admit either failure or error on her part (or that of her staff [same thing]). It's a shame people like this cannot understand that short-term failure is an integral part of long-term success. Find out what doesn't work, fix it, and move on...
"If you want to succeed, double your failure rate." - Thomas J. Watson (Founder of IBM)
I was almost arrested for arguing with Diebold rep (Score:5, Interesting)
I live in Baltimore, and recently we had a flower mart downtown
Enter me. I walk up, admittedly predispositioned to not like Diebold, and asked them some questions.
1. What hard copy proof can I have of my vote?
2. Where is the paper trail with physical evidence of all votes?
3. In the case of a recount, what validation process is in place to ensure the machine's records are correct?
They gave me some BS about how at the end of the polling you can print out a list of all votes entered. I told them what I was asking for was a single, one-person, one-vote physical record, not a grand list at the end of the night. They had absolutely no answer to any of these questions.
Then I brought up the many instances of Diebold machines being hacked and asked them what security measures were in place to fix this issues. I was told they were not aware of any issues and that the machines were unhackable. I asked them if they knew how absolutely ridiculous this sounded.
At this point, some other folks had become aware of the conversation and were starting to ask the same questions about accountability and verification processes. They 2 reps balked and stalled while I pressed further, citing specific cases where Diebold machines had been compromised and blasted them for basically lying about the 'unhackability' of their machines.
Then 1 of the reps walked away. A few minutes later he returned with 2 police officers who asked me to leave. I had not raised my voice, acted theatening, or any other misconduct that would warrant my being ejected. I told the officers I was simply concerned about my right to vote being taking seriously and protected and wanted my questions answered by a company rep while I had the opportunity. The officers told me I was being disruptive. Other people came to my defense. One of the officers had his hand on his gun. They asked if I would rather be removed against my will.
So I left.
"Welcome to Maryland - You'll vote electronic and you'll LIKE it! Or else we might arrest you for asking too many questions."
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
paper ballots are what are needed. simply to use, proven methodology. count in the open, or under video tape, and only send in the results.
There is... (Score:5, Insightful)
But "open source" voting systems are just as useless as proprietary ones without a permanent voter-verifiable paper audit trail.
In fact, given the choice of 1.) open source voting systems, and 2.) a permanent voter-verifiable paper audit trail, you'd be foolish not to pick 2.) every time.
Now if we could have both, fantastic. However, you'll probably go a LOT further arguing for a paper trail in ALL instances than trying to unseat traditional enterprise and commercial vendors in any market.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.openvotingconsortium.org/our_solution [openvotingconsortium.org]
You do get both. But I agree that 2) is the most important part. It would be fine if everyone just put a big X on a box next to their chosen candidate or issue. Really not that hard.
Re:Geez that's disturbing... (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you think these officials are outrigh lying and conspiring to subvert the democractic process for a few meager bucks. Most of the subversives in charge of the Maryland voting system recieve no monies, but instead the kudos and respect from their superiors. In time, they may also get a slice of the power for their efforts, and will then be free to stamp on a few faces.
Did the communist revolutionaries get paid? No, they did what they did because they belived what they were doing was right. Just as absolutist Republician party members believe what they are doing by rigging elections is also right, because it helps the "godly and patriotic" stay in power. These people don't believe in democracy or freedom or rights. They believe whatever they want to and have only contempt for those who disagree.
So don't follow the money trail. It won't be that simple, because these people are working on different rules. Their kickbacks will only come after it's too late to expose them.
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corruption is hardly a GOP-only problem (Score:4, Informative)
Look up your favorite Democrats at OpenSecrets [opensecrets.org] and find out about how much of their campaign money comes from the Hollywood content cartel. . . and you won't need to wonder just where bullshit like the DMCA comes from. Hint: In Hillary Clinton's career campaign contribution profile of individual donors, Disney (as in The Path to 9/11) is #15.
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Dopey Alert! (Score:5, Insightful)
But let's not pretend there's "enough blame to go around". There has never been a congress as corrupt as the Republicans who've been in control since 1994 and there's never been an administration as foul as the Bush Junta. We heard this kind of bullshit after Jack Abramoff was found to have purchased the votes of scores of Republican congressmen and senators. "Well, the Democrats took $500 from Jack Abramoff, so that shows they're just as corrupt as Bob Ney who took over a million dollars and actually SOLD HIS EFFING VOTE to the highest bidder." It's a red herring and complete crap. Even if the Democrats did take money they haven't had anything to sell to the generous donors like Abramoff who have purchased the Republican Party and Bush Presidency.
Let's not forget that since 2000 the Democratic Party has exactly ZERO power in Washington. They've been completely shut out of the legislative process by rules changes and the "K Street Project." 3 million-plus Americans have gone from "getting by" to outright poverty since Bush and Co. took over. 40 million Americans-plus don't have health insurance of any kind since Bush and Co. took over. And the war, tax cuts only for people who make more than $250k, this shiny new security apparatus and the "rebuilding" of Afghanistan and Iraq are all being put on the USA Credit Card so my kids and grandkids can pay it off while eating macaroni and cheese. How do you think they're paying for those secret prisons, wiretaps, and data mining? You think black hoods and stun guns are free?
If there is anything in government that you don't like since 2000, you can bet that no Democrat has had anything to do with it. Not that they're such fantastic leaders, but there is nothing about the last 6 years you can pin on them. Nothing. And I know Republicans hate to hear this, but the guy who was supposed to be protecting the American Homeland on September 11, 2001 was George W. Bush. No other. NOT Bill Clinton. Say it again until it sinks in. It was a Republican President who told the National Security Advisor a year before 9/11 after being told Osama bin Laden should be a top priority "OK, you've covered your butt." It was the BUSH ADMINISTRATION that said our soldiers would be greeted with flowers and candy when they marched into Baghdad (this is absolutely true. spend a few minutes with Google to see for yourself) and it was a Republican Vice President (the guy with the evil, baby's-blood-drinking sneer) who said"The war in Iraq will be over in weeks rather than years.
I could go on (and I probably will, soon), but the next person who tells me "oh, there's plenty of blame to be spread around the two parties) is going to get my size 11 Hush Puppy right up his crack. Now, "alizard" if that is your real name, why don't you go dunk your head? That BS isn't going to play around here any more.
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while the GOP is indefensible. . . (Score:3, Insightful)
I'll just say that if the Democrats are so powerless, why does the entertainment industry think their votes are worth buying? You need to call Disney and tell them they're wasting their money when they give it to Senator Clinton.
Ever heard of the Democratic Leadership Council? Did you know [irc-online.org]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I wouldn't be so quick to put your finger on either money or power. Sometimes people just react to authority without thinking for themselves. Look at the Millgram Experiment [wikipedia.org]. Otherwise normal people can do things that are beyond reason when they are given prior instructions from some authority figure.
The problem with bureaucrats (just like everyone else) is often a much more insidious a form of corruption. They actually might believe what they a
Kickbacks (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Geez that's disturbing... (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, we aren't talking about corruption in any other party because the Republican party is the one in power here, and they're the ones pulling this shit. Are there corrupt Democrats? Of course. Have some Democrats done nasty things to subvert free and fair elections? Yes. That doesn't mean we have to be "fair and balanced" and bring up what the Democrats did 30 years ago every time we talk about what the Republicans are doing now. What the Democrats do or did has no bearing at all on the fact that what the Republicans are doing now is wrong.
Yes, corruption is rife in government. That does not mean we have to acknowledge every corrupt act by every government official in every party to discuss it. We identify corrupt practices and complain about them individually. Painting the whole government as necessarily corrupt just gives everyone the idea that corruption is just fine because "everyone is doing it." The fact of the matter is that the Republicans are in power, and their corruption is hurting the country more than anyone else's because of that fact.
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Re:Geez that's disturbing... (Score:4, Insightful)
The Maryland case may be Democratic officials deciding that vote rigging is okay because the Republicans have been getting away with it elsewhere. If that's the case, then that would illustrate how dangerous that sort of thinking is. The other guy doing something wrong does not make it right to do that thing yourself.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's unfortunate that so many people are so focused on what the latest democrat and republican scandals are that they don't see that they're really getting fucked from both sides. Neither party gives a flying fuck about "average Joe" in America. They care about power and money.
Because both parties have proven to be beyond contempt, I've decided I will never vote for another republican or democ
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
If the Democrats are hijacking the electoral process, stealing votes, perpetrating widespread electoral fraud, participating in voter intimdation, and just generally doing their best to corrupt free and open elections... they certainly haven't been doing a very good job of it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You know, I've noticed that's what republicans tend to say every time this comes up. The simple fact is that some republicans (note that the GP also explicitly limi
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I've never been to a polling place that had all booths open, electric or otherwise.
I know what you mean. Last time I went to an election with punch-out paper ballots, some of the booths were blocked off with "out of order" signs -- the paper wasn't working in those ones. People complain about the unreliability of e-voting, but it's really not any worse than it used to be.
......
Okay, I'm making fun. A little. But really, have you never been to a polling location that had all boths open? Ever, using an