Galileo Sends Its First Signals

VVrath writes "Galileo, the European answer to the US Military-owned GPS has sent it's first signals to ground stations in the UK and Belgium. The first satellite in the Galileo system, Giove-A was launched on December 28th 2005, and is set to be followed by a further 29 satellites by 2010. At a cost of over $4 Billion, is this system really going to offer any major advantages over GPS, or is it merely a politicised 'anything you can do we can do better' by the European Space Agency?"

Better than US GPS?

[MikeWasHere05]

"At a cost of over $4 Billion, is this system really going to offer any major advantages over GPS, or is it merely a politicised 'anything you can do we can do better' by the European Space Agency?"

If I remember correctly, Galileo is to have accuracy within centimeters. With current US-GPS the accuracy is much worse. Within a few yards, I believe.

Advantages

[Anonymous Coward]

Galileo has a bunch of advantages over GPS, like being designed to work to a higher degree of acuracy and to work inside buildings and in built-up areas. Take a look at this article http://www.gpsworld.com/gpsworld/article/articleDe tail.jsp?id=61295 [gpsworld.com] for more information.

Re:jamming

[Cannedbread]

they will probably just drive around with humvee's broadcasting noise onto the frequencies galileo uses. you can jam the us GPS in a pretty big area using a device that uses less power than a lightbulb.

Re:Better than US GPS?

[jm92956n]

Military grade GPS hardware is accurate to within a few centimeters as well. Consumer equipment isn't, but this isn't due to technical limitations of the satelites.
Much of the equipment has been upgraded in recent years, too. Signals were originally intentionally inaccurate because the military didn't want Kim Jong Il to have a $99 missle guidance system. Recent upgrades have allowed the military to distort signals based upon geography: selectively, certain "hostile" areas are subject to this distortion.

Politics

[denominateur]

I remember reading (In PhysicsWorld published by the IoP [www.iop.org] that the political reasoning behind the GPS workalike system was basically that the United States cannot be trusted to provide GPS functionality (as happened on 9/11) in emergencies and during exceptional circumstances. As more and more businesses (and most transport) depend on GPS functionality the European Union has decided to build something more thrustworthy and the improvements are just a side-effect. In the end, both parties will benefit. There was something about jamming eachother's networks but I can't exactly remember it... anyone?

Mod article -1, flamebait

[vadim_t]

I would think the reason is completely obvious: It's a really bad idea to have your critical infrastructure depend on something external you can't control.

In a data center, do you trust your ISP has full redundancy and will never, ever fail, decide to disconnect you or go bankrupt? Or you you use several ISPs, have an UPS and a standby generator just in case some day something does go wrong?

Re:jamming

[Ryan Stortz]

According to Wikipedia's page on Galileo [wikipedia.org]:

The European Union has agreed to switch to a range of frequencies known as Binary Offset Carrier 1.1 in June 2004, which will allow both European and American forces to block each other's signals in the battlefield without disabling the entire system.

The writeup is a little confusing, it looks like its saying that GPS is blockable by "European forces" and the USA is alright with it. As far as I'm aware, that is not the case.

Short answer: "YES"

[mi]

or is it merely a politicised 'anything you can do we can do better' by the European Space Agency?

The short answer is: "Yes, is". The longer answer is, the new system promises more precision and guarantees of the navigation quality. Both of these would be much easier to achieve withing the GPS' framework, but providing credible competition is usually the best way to shove almost any service provider into improving their offering.

When the provider is US Government, it may be the only way... Still, there is no reason for Galileo to be incompatible with the existing GPS clients, that's just evil...

Re:jamming

[towaz]

here is the slashdot bit.. heard it on bbc as well about the same time.
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/12/01/122620 7 [slashdot.org]

Re:Short answer: "YES"

[denominateur]

When the provider is US Government, it may be the only way... Still, there is no reason for Galileo to be incompatible with the existing GPS clients, that's just evil...

it's fully compatible as it uses both its own and the GPS protocol

Re:can't we all just get along?

[Plyschmannen]

According to a newspaper I read (its swedish, sorry folks) http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=597&a=513 113&previousRenderType=2 [www.dn.se] the systems can work together. They pretty much said that twice the satelites means better coverage.

Another clip here: http://europa.eu.int/comm/dgs/energy_transport/gal ileo/international/cooperation_en.htm [eu.int]
"This includes, quite naturally, co-operation with the two countries now operating satellite navigation systems. Europe is already examining a number of technical issues with the United States related to interoperability and compatibility with the GPS system. The objective is to ensure that everyone will be able to use both GPS and GALILEO signals with a single receiver. Negotiations on co-operation scenarios with the Russian Federation, which has valuable experience in the development and operation of its GLONASS system, are also ongoing."

Also, from http://europa.eu.int/comm/dgs/energy_transport/gal ileo/international/global_en.htm [eu.int] :
"Once again, the GALILEO system will be fully compatible with the existing American GPS system. The objective being pursued by Europe is to reinforce the satellite navigation infrastructure by providing an additional, state-of-the-art system ensuring a more robust, precise and continuous service to users worldwide."

So basicly, they will not compete, more like complement each other.

Re:jamming

[Some Bitch]

The writeup is a little confusing, it looks like its saying that GPS is blockable by "European forces" and the USA is alright with it. As far as I'm aware, that is not the case.

GPS is blockable by any idiot with a soldering iron, you don't need the permission of the US government just a little knowledge of electronics.

Re:Independence

[werewolf1031]

While I agree with the rest of your post, please make a distinction between U.S. citizens and its government, they are not one in the same, and there are a great many (myself included) who strongly disagree with many of the egregious actions taken by our current administration. There's quite a diversity of opinion and often sharp disagreement in this country, please don't lump us all into a single group.

That's all I'm asking. Thanks.

Please Mod Parent Up

[werewolf1031]

Very insightful cut-through-the-BS post. And...

Competition does not hurt, the lack of it does.

That sums up the whole issue quite nicely. Thanks.

If you must ask why

[blindseer]

Galileo offers:

- Higher accuracy for commercial subscribers than offered by GPS.
- Non-military, muli-national control. No one country/entity can turn it off.
- Availability on Arctic and Antarctic waters. While not useful to most, apparently including the US military, it is useful for shipping and search and rescue for many European countries.
- Interoperability/compatibility with GPS. One can back up the other to offer higher availability and/or accuracy.

The only problem I can see is that they use the same frequencies. If some one jams one they are also jamming the other. Given the military capability of the countries funding both systems I can imagine such jamming will be very short lived.

Re:USA Leads, Rest of World Follows

[Anonymous Coward]

<your-logic> The USA are lame copycats and Russia owns the Earth. After all, isn't the fact that the USA merely copied Russia, who launched the first artificial satellite, Sputnik I [wikipedia.org], proof? "Nothing like following the leader", eh? </your-logic>

Re:jamming

[towaz]

probable means this...

http://www.phrack.org/phrack/60/p60-0x0d.txt [phrack.org]

Re:Staying Competitive: Europe vs. USA

[sumdumass]

This site [tinyvital.com] seems to disagree with the differences in crime rates you stated. I followed some of the supportijng links and it also apears to be acurate. Well i guess interpool only wants you to know about the stats if you are a police angency. This site here [unodc.org]andhere [uncjin.org] seem to back it up. It is amazing that switzerland apears to have a larger crime rate then the US. This site http://www.gunowners.org/sk0703.htm [gunowners.org] apears to say that gun ownership has the oposite effect in crime then what is popularly taunted too.

I've heard this misinterpretation about the crime rates in Europe compaired to america before. I'm not sure it is something like the chicken and egg concpet were some one thinks it should be logical to have that outcome so they just spout it or if the EU news agencies under report the crimes unlike in america were it is a guarentied ratings.

Re:Staying Competitive: Europe vs. USA

[xiphoris]

A cursory review of the literature leads your statements to be fatally incorrect. Crime rates are in fact lower in the US than in many European countries.

Burglary rates for Scotland, Austria, and England and Wales are reported as higher for the entire period of 1980 through 2000. For England and Wales, this difference is as much as 50% higher crime rate per capita than the US after 1993.

Don't believe me. Check the figures yourself [crimereduction.gov.uk]. I should also point out that these figures come from a UK authority, not another "American urban legend".

Re:Better than US GPS?

[Malor]

Nuclear missiles, as presently deployed, are largely ballistic. You don't need much of a guidance system... you throw them way, way up, nearly to orbit, and let gravity take care of the rest.

Re:Better than US GPS?

[Nutria]

Will they cheerfully sell centimeter-accurate receivers to all buyers, even Iran and North Korea?

Probably.

But even if they don't, EU will license the tech to the PRC, and the PRC will sell it to them..

It takes incoming signals

[SargeantLobes]

The Current US GPS system only allows hardware to use the signals from GPS sattelites to triangulate it's own position.
Galileo, however, also allows for hardware to send data to the sattelites, and this opens up a number of possibilities.

• Distress signals
  
• looking up free parking spaces in a city (this is said to be one of the possibilities, howerver I don't see it working in a city like Manhattan)
  
• looking up the nearest KFC's, yes advertising, that's a good way to get your 4 billion dollar missile guidance system paid for, Europeans understand kapitalism too you know.
  
• hacking attempts, however if you're not carefull it will allow ESA admins to triangilate your position as well

Re:Staying Competitive: Europe vs. USA

[anpe]

The blog you point to seems to choose the figures that back its theory up. From the same papers it cites as source[1], you can read:
Homicides / 100.000 inhabitants 1999
US: 4.55
France: 1.63
Germany: 1.22
Italy: 1.4
Switzerland: 1.25

[1]http://www.unodc.org/unodc/crime_cicp_survey_se venth.html [unodc.org]

FOLKS, TURN YOUR SARCASM DETECTORS ON

[gowen]

That's a joke, guys. "Why do you hate America?" is the archetypal ignorant talking-point-fixated Republican response to the slightest criticism of US foreign policy, so that's what I posted. There's an excellent Tom Tomorrow cartoon on the same theme.

Jeez, I somehow got the idea people here were smarter than that.
Guess not.

Re:USA Leads, Rest of World Follows

[Anonymous Coward]

Where is Tim Berners-Lee from? Which research organisation was he working for when he invented HTTP/HTML?

Roughly 90% of the worlds inventions in use today were invented by the British and Europeans in Victorian times, with the majority of those inventions being British, yet, you don't hear them go on-and-on-and-on about it. Everything since then has been improvement. Slow, painstaking, improvement.

America invents the oh-so-obvious one-click payment system, and they boast and swagger about it as if the global economy depended on it. This is a razor thin step away from nationalistic propaganda of the worst kind. If anyone else invents anything, it's a threat to be sneered at or trade-sanctioned.

America richly deserves its pariah status among civilised people.

Re:Staying Competitive: Europe vs. USA

[Meikel2342]

Well... how about checking some official and non-propaganda sites? I was really wondering (as a european feeling possibly overly safe at home?) wether these statistics might actually be true. Go check for yourself:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/hmrt.htm [usdoj.gov] which is from the US department of justice and claims the murder rate in the us for 2002 is 6.1 cases per 100.000.

A little more difficult to understand might be the official german site (as its in german...), but easy enough: the word "mord" means "murder", and the number of cases for 2002 in the table is cited as 873. As we have 80 Million people in Germany that amounts to a rate of 1.1 per 100.000. So the US has nearly 6 times the murder rate of that in germany. Here is the link to the official german statistics (the BKA is the german version of the FBI): http://www.bka.de/pks/pks2002/p_3_01.pdf [www.bka.de]

Btw. the table on the top of the page includes the number of attempted homicides in red, the number of sucessul ones in blue. Without so many guns available, obviously (and luckily) most murder attempts are doomed to fail.

Phew. So I can still feel safe here ;-)

Not Accurate

[RemovableBait]

It is important to note that Giove-A is NOT the 'first satellite in the system', it is only a TEST satellite, for TESTING purposes. As the system stands, no useful navigation can be made with just one satellite (as you need multiple signals to correct errors).

The original intentions of ESA was to make Giove-A a testing satellite providing signals back to ground stations throughout the life of it's 2 year mission. This particular satellite will not be part of the fully functional Galileo system.

On another note, we need a moderation system for articles: -1, Flamebait; -2, Wrong Section; -3, Submitter-knows-fuck-all-about-the-subject.

Re:Galileo is a weapon of war against the USA

[dizzyduck]

Don't be ridiculous. It would be the height of folly to base our infrastructure and security on the "promises" of the US. Perhaps in past it would be conceivable that we rely upon GPS, but in the Bush era, such actions are reckless.

The Iraq fiasco has shown Europe that the US cannot be trusted, nor relied upon. Therefore we must build our own network of satellites.

It's like the Cold War all over again.

Re:Better than US GPS?

[icypyr0]

Wrong. GPS vertical error is around 20m/95%. However, vertical accuracy is affected pretty profoundly by latitude, if you get greater than around 65 degrees latitude accuracy quickly degrades.

Re:Better than US GPS?

[Anonymous Coward]

First of all, it's not like any commercial aircraft uses GPS to land autonomously... Wouldn't you rather have a trained, and very experienced, instrument rated professional human (meaning that they can land solely with the altimeter, bearing, and the help of the tower)? I know I'd rather have the human than some damned computer, especially when the powers at large could throw off the GPS system and send a flight of 300 people into the side of a mountian very easily.. Of course WAAS exists to provide better accuracy for GPS, but I'd rather rely on actual instruments (or a combination of guidance and instruments) than guidance systems alone. At any rate, falling one meter isn't going to hurt any airplane, save for the Wright brothers original model!

GPS is very good for very accurately keeping track of flights, and providing ground personnel and tracking sytsems a larget envelope to see aircraft than radar alone can provide--which is of course limited to line of sight. Also, GPS with WAAS allows a pilot to fly closer to the ground than would be allowed by the FAA with ground only guidance.

Re:question for GPS geeks

[Greger47]

It'll work where ever you are as long as you can receive the signal. Given a good enough antenna you could be on the moon. :-)

But seriously, the GPS satellites have their antennas pointing downwards and they are in middle earth orbit which is the next step above LEO. Just remeber that you don't have interefence from the atmosphere when you do your calculations and you should be fine.

Happy LEO flight!

/greger

Re:Those Gosh-Darned Europeans

[JourneyExpertApe]

As it happens, this will also be good for all of us. Galileo promises [bbc.co.uk] sub-meter accuracy, faster acquisition, and better penetration through cover.

Yeah, if you're willing to pay a subscription fee. If not, then you get about 5 m accuracy, which is comparable to GPS.

Re:Better than US GPS?

[Erwos]

I don't know if you realize this, but GPS can't just be turned off for only European citizens, and not Americans. The satellites are either broadcasting the common carrier and p-code, or they're not. If what you're saying is true (and, frankly, I'd like to see some sort of documentation on it), it screwed over any American shipping in the area as much as everyone else. US citizens aren't _always_ in the US, and many US companies have holdings overseas where they use GPS.

The idea that the US would just unilaterally, without warning, turn off GPS to Europe is insane. Are you guys getting that paranoid? We're your MILITARY ALLIES. We stick tight with our allies. Don't panic. I really can't believe the amount of FUD Europeans are swallowing on this topic.

That said, I really don't care at all about Gallileo. The more, the merrier, in my opinion. At the very least, if something goes catastrophically wrong with either system, there's still something in the sky to handle navigation for a while.

-Erwos

Re:Staying Competitive: Europe vs. USA

[Meikel2342]

You are correct, I did not really counter your argument, I merely responded to the contents of your links. Please let me explain my train of thought to you, so you might see, why I did that:

When following your links (I take the first one as an example), first there are the number of total crimes and I could not imagine how you would count that and what kind of crimes such a broad statistic would include. Everything from speeding to murder? Obviously, that might depend heavily on local laws. And as another poster pointed out, maybe some types of crimes are more likely to be reported in one society than in another. But thats a whole different story and I only wanted to point out, why I retreated from comparing total crime numbers to murderers.

Your first link immediately goes on to quote homicides, and there I had one easily comparable crime, which would be defined equally in probably all societies. So I easily compared those.

Also, especially the gunowners link refers most prominently to homicides. So mostly the contents of those links made me post my answer...

And, by the way: I definitely prefer a society where things were stolen from me 5 times and I were killed 0 times, to one where I only lose 1 item to theft while being killed in the process... but that kind of argument is quite inflammatory, so I should immediately apologize for it :-)

Re:question for GPS geeks

[willgps]

Professor Werner Enderle from QUT has done extensive modelling and simulation on galileo performance for LEO missions. Have a look at http://www.gmat.unsw.edu.au/wang/jgps/v2n2/v2n2For umB.pdf [unsw.edu.au]

Re:Better than US GPS?

[toiletsalmon]

The idea that the US would just unilaterally, without warning, turn off GPS to Europe is insane.

Are you sure???
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/milspace-04zc.html [spacedaily.com]

London (AFP) Oct 24, 2004 The United States could attack Europe's planned network of global positioning satellites if it was used by a hostile power such as China, The Business weekly reported Sunday.

Re:Staying Competitive: Europe vs. USA

[Walenzack]

Well, in fact you can't compare crime rates between countries with different laws and different "crimes"... A crime in USA may not be a crime in Spain (e.g. downloading copyrigthed music over the Internet for personal, non-lucrative use is legal in Spain and not in USA (not sure if it's a crime but it's not legal)), as well as a crime in Spain may not be a crime in USA (owning a gun).

So, if you want to compare apples with apples, you should compare equal crimes. Murder is a good choice, rape or sexual aggression would be ok, too.

Re:USA Leads, Rest of World Follows

[Paul Jakma]

Who invented packet switching, the premise upon which IP builds?

You think ARPANet was somehow the *only* packet-switched computer network in the 70s/80s? Ever heard of Cyclades? You think the internet was the only widely deployed computer information network? Ever hear of 'Minitel'?