Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Microsoft Government Politics

Massachusetts' CIO Defends Move to OpenDocument 274

Mark Brunelli writes "A public hearing concerning Massachusetts' plan to dump Microsoft for OpenDocument featured a fair share of controversy as the state's CIO tried to fight off naysayers. Linda Hamel, the general counsel for the Massachusetts Information Technology Department (ITD), suggested that groups that oppose the OpenDocument file format standard might be influenced by Microsoft." We reported on the bounce back against the OpenDocument move this past weekend.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Massachusetts' CIO Defends Move to OpenDocument

Comments Filter:
  • $50M verses $5M (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Bob_Robertson ( 454888 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @04:57PM (#13926407) Homepage
    The early audio recording of the two hour meeting between the CIO's office and various members of the vendor population including the idiot... I mean, the representative of Microsoft, is really amazing. If you haven't heard it, I suggest you do a little digging and find it.

    The CIO did make one very interesting statement about money. $50M in order to get Office-12, because of license fees, OS and hardware upgrades, for something that cannot even be tested at this time.

    In comparison, to roll out OpenOffice to every state employee, including training (which never seems to be in the pro-Microsoft column), $5M. Mostly because there is no hardware or OS upgrade requirement since OpenOffice runs on everything. Today. Now. Including using the document specification they really want, which Microsoft says they have no plans on supporting.

    Fascinating. Foot, rifle, Microsoft pulls trigger.

    Bob-

  • by LexNaturalis ( 895838 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @05:03PM (#13926460)
    I would think she'd lose all claims to credibility by making statements like that. For one, she's making an ad hominem (although not against a singular person in this case) argument by arguing that the groups are wrong because they are (allegedly) supported by Microsoft. That argument falls apart, logically, because someone could offer a simple counter statement of "so, why does that make them wrong?"

    I do find it interesting to note that the National Federation of the Blind in Computer Science is criticizing the move and I think they offer legitimate reasons for using Microsoft products-- that is, until OpenDocument supports the same braille readers and other screen-reader programs. If the blind state workers are using MS products and the other state workers are using OpenDocument, I'd think that might cause some problems. The article didn't mention any specific fixes for that, so hopefully they thought that one through. However, based upon the fallacious logic, I'm assuming they (or at least Ms. Hamel) don't think things through all the time.
  • Re:OpenDoc (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ergo98 ( 9391 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @05:06PM (#13926500) Homepage Journal
    But if it were me, and if I play CIO for a moment, I'd make DANG sure I get it right before converting millions of documents.

    Remember that Microsoft has made OfficeXML the default file format in the upcoming Office 12, so some sort of shift seems inevitable. That sort of transition was probably taken as an opportunity to consider alternatives, which is how OpenDocument got its big break.

    I'd work more towards .pdf in the near-term and see how these openDoc formats shake out.

    PDFs are one of their file formats (in fact it led Microsoft to support PDFs natively in Office), however it's more of an output format rather than a working format.
  • by jav1231 ( 539129 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @05:10PM (#13926540)
    You're missing the point. The Mass. move isn't to OpenOffice, it's to OpenDocument. What they choose to run is a different story. OOo and Wordperfect, for example, plan to support. Microsoft only plans to import it, I believe, and that only recently. Microsoft if fighting the standard. The idea that this state government is moving to OOo is an extension of the MS PR machine. Get everyone worried about losing Office and an outcry will ensue. Nevermind the fact that they're locking themselves into perpetual licensing fees and a proprietary format. Hey, the vendor's benevolent so what's the harm, right?
    More people, more companies, and more governments need to really stand on MS's neck on this and get them to support standard formats. MS doesn't want to because then they have to TRULY compete with other software. Now if Office is so great, why not just support the format? Why not say, "okay, we'll support it and beat you on equal footing!" The mark of a champion is that he will beat you at your best. MS wants to take out your quarterback's legs, get rid of the instant replay and challenge system, AND make you play on their home field before they'll even join the game.
    When are people going to realize they are the software industry equivilents to rapists and pedophiles.
  • by frostman ( 302143 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @05:13PM (#13926575) Homepage Journal

    I think the obvious outcome of this and similar efforts will be that Microsoft puts all the actual content of Office documents in some sort of open format, and "extends" that format to support all the goodies such as fancy formatting, macros, Excel formulas, and so on. The extensions will be proprietary and for the most part not accessible to open-source programs, but the base content will be easy to get at.

    Since Word is following Pages [apple.com] in its future approach to document formatting, a lot of those extras will be used by people who aren't necessarily trying to do anything fancy.

    The end result will be that MS satisfies open format requirements, since you can get at the goods, but anybody who wants to work with the documents in real life will need Office. In other words, what we have today, with more documentation and more bureaucracy.

  • by N8F8 ( 4562 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @05:18PM (#13926630)
    My big complaint about OpenDocument [wikipedia.org] Schemas [coverpages.org] are that they rely on RelaxNG [wikipedia.org] that has poor support in developer tools. It also adds another layer of confusion for customers who are veeery reluctant to accept non-W3C [xml.com] standards.
  • by Safe Sex Goddess ( 910415 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @05:24PM (#13926690) Homepage Journal
    Inefficiency is a safeguard of democracy.

    If things were too efficient and easy to change, you could waking up in a police state overnight.

  • by CastrTroy ( 595695 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @05:28PM (#13926717)
    Opendocument isn't any more bloated than microsoft office documents. Most of my OpenOffice documents end up way smaller than what they would be had I used MS Office. Maybe there is a bit of extra information in there, but if the end result is a more compatible document format, that is kind of human readable, then, maybe it's good to have a little bit of bloat.
  • by Tinidril ( 685966 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @05:30PM (#13926742)
    So the *only* reason someone might think that sticking with a product that is used by 90% of market (formats included) is that they were influenced by Microsoft?

    No, I dont think that is what was said. And the fact is, that many of the polical organizations that are jumping into this arguement receive much of their funding from MS. Are you saying that MS funds these groups without thinking that it will bias the output?

    I actually went through most of the submitted comments on the Mass website, and most of those opposed were from political organizations losting MS as a major contributor or founding member.

    I don't believe that Linda was implying that these organizations are wholly owned subsidiaries of MS, but the connection to MS funding is clear.

  • by ShieldW0lf ( 601553 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @05:34PM (#13926797) Journal
    acheco took exception to Hamel's remarks and first asked if she believed these groups were in fact "wholly owned subsidiaries of Microsoft," before asking if she believed they had been "bought" by the software giant.

    "Those are your words, not mine senator," Hamel replied to both questions.

    Yes, but thats clearly what you wanted to imply isn't Linda?


    I believe the correct phrase to use here would be "Yes, but that's clearly what the facts you've presented here imply, isn't it Linda?

    I love how you depict the whole thing as being about ideologies. You know how some people buy cell phones on contract, then later when they are dissatisfied with the service they are screwed, while other people buy cell phones and pay as you go plans so they are free to change providers should the need arise? This is the same thing. The CIO doesn't think tying the future of government documents to a single convicted monopolists patent protected format is a wise idea, and that is his determination to make.

    There is no practical difficulty preventing Microsoft from stepping up to the plate and giving them what meets their needs, they're simply refusing to do so. It would be like if I went to a dealership to buy a truck for pulling stumps out of my yard and after failing to lease me a sportscar they went to all my family and friends telling them about how stupid I was for insisting on a truck and attempting to force me to lease a sportscar.

    Technical issues aside, financial issues aside, who in their right mind would want to deal with a company that treats their customers that way? They've clearly demonstrated that if you get involved with them and you don't bend when they rattle their zipper, they'll attack you personally and publicly in an effort to have you replaced with someone more pliable. As in, it's not just dangerous for your company to deal with them, it's dangerous for your career as well.

  • Re:Damn Microsoft (Score:4, Interesting)

    by fader ( 107759 ) <fader@@@hotpop...com> on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @05:46PM (#13926954) Homepage
    That's a great idea! I can shell out to MS for a Windows license and then downl... oh wait, we're back to where we started. Not to mention that I can't send in anything to my government... it's supposed to be two-way. Instead of this roundabout, I'm honestly and genuinely interested in hearing your justification for a government ever storing public documents in a closed format. I've never been able to come up with one, but I'd love to hear it.
  • by daveewart ( 66895 ) on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @05:57PM (#13927093)
    I was happy to read someone describing Microsoft Office as a 'legacy system'.
  • Re:Damn Microsoft (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @06:01PM (#13927134)
    a) People are upset with Microsoft because MS are pulling dirty tricks to block the competition. MS could add OpenDocument filters to Office, but doesn't want to, and the disingenuous statements about how hard and expensive it would be are annoying. (Office has filters for WordPerfect files, and MS had to reverse-engineer WordPerfect to make them; the OpenDocument format is public, which means it's available to MS too. Since WordPerfect filters were much harder than OpenDocument would be, and MS already made them, they are an existance proof that MS could do OpenDocument filters if it wanted.)

    b) The Microsoft solution isn't even available yet for testing; OOo has finished testing and released.

    c) The Microsoft solution will not run on old computers.

    d) The Microsoft solution costs money for the upgrades.

    e) The Microsoft solution, being a new XML-based format, will cause users to have to deal with document format change anyway. Now is the perfect time for MA to do this.

    f) Blind users will not be locked out of the new format, even if Microsoft holds firm on the refusal to make a filter for the new format. Someone else could make a filter; OOo already has excellent import and export of Word documents; and if OOo has inadequate support for blind users, that can and will be fixed. The short-term annoyance of the blind users is NOT a good reason to stop a change that in the long-term benefits everyone (including those same blind users).

    g) The new format means that all users, including blind users, can choose among multiple competing products. Don't like OOo? Try AbiWord, KOffice, WordPerfect, etc. And I think MS will give in and support the new format once this is a done deal.

    h) I don't think MS is completely evil. But it's clear that OpenDocument is a good thing for the users, better in fact than MS's upcoming new format. OpenDocument can be better than MS XML without MS XML being completely bad.
  • by 16K Ram Pack ( 690082 ) <tim DOT almond AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @06:15PM (#13927276) Homepage
    I'll step up to the plate here and ask any blind computer users what their requirements are with regards to Open Office, braille printers and the interface to them.

    I'll gladly contribute some time to help towards filling the gaps in.

  • Re:Damn Microsoft (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 01, 2005 @06:26PM (#13927395)
    There is something that somehow always gets missed by people dazzled by how "open" the Office XML schema license is, and that's the fact that IT IS NOT REDISTRIBUTABLE. So, right now, commercial software vendors and open source guys alike can get a perpetual license to use those schema in their software. Fine. But anybody who USES that software also has to get a license from MS too. The day MS decides to pull this licensing policy, you're left with your existing user base, and that's that.

    "Open", my arse.

    "You can freely write software to help promote our shit as long as it helps us get a new monopoly", that's more like it.

For God's sake, stop researching for a while and begin to think!

Working...