London Tube Dangerous for Technophiles? 971
TsukiKage writes "Traveling on the London Tube is dangerous these days, it seems - and not because of terrorists. Quick as ever to try and protect against the attack that has just happened, zealous police will detain you at the drop of a hat." From the article: "The next train is scheduled to arrive in a few minutes. As other people drift on to the platform, I sit down against the wall with my rucksack still on my back. I check for messages on my phone, then take out a printout of an article about Wikipedia from inside my jacket and begin to read. The train enters the station. Uniformed police officers appear on the platform and surround me ... They handcuff me, hands behind my back, and take my rucksack out of my sight. They explain that this is for my safety, and that they are acting under the authority of the Terrorism Act."
Terrorism Act (Score:5, Interesting)
this is so, so, so scary... (Score:4, Interesting)
just wonder if I wiped that copy of "The Anarchist's Cookbook" I downloaded in curiosity five years ago from usenet... not to mention the fact that my education and armed forces experience gives me the capability of designing and building timer devices... and of cooking up explosives...
This could be abused to the breaking point (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:But hey... (Score:5, Interesting)
Or maybe you could realize that most liberals don't hate America, they just want to make it better. You can't make things better unless you look at what's wrong. It also helps to look at what other countries are doing that is working better. Despite the success the Bush Administration and Fox News have had in turning 'liberal' into some sort of insult, most of them are pretty reasonable people.
Britain is in over-reaction mode, just as the US was after 9/11. Unfortunate, but not suprising. They may get a bit more carried away since they are lacking some of the guarantees our constitution provides, but that doesn't negate other things that they're doing well. Spazzing out as though it did is just silly.
This should just serve to illustrate how important our civil liberties are, especially in times of crisis. This is why the patriot act was and still is a mistake. Further, the U.S. government is never above criticism. That is our right and our duty as citizens. During wartime, the government should be held to higher standards, not lower ones.
I was searched quite politely on the Tube (Score:5, Interesting)
Don't know why Mr. May had such a hard time of it. Sounds more like an abberation than a trend, and it's impossible to contruct a trend line from a single point of data.
Crow T. Trollbot
Re:just some balance here (Score:3, Interesting)
Most people are well aware of the difficulties of dealing with terrorism, and the UK is leaps and bounds ahead of it than the US is, so drop your pants and switch on Fox ;)
Flood them (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Great New World!! (Score:3, Interesting)
Doesn't matter. There are loads and loads of examples of the police here in the UK catching people where CCTV footage was the key. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen it in news bulletins, documentaries, special reports, etc. CCTV works, and the majority of people in the UK approve of it and like having it in their neighborhoods. And that includes me.
Steady on (Score:3, Interesting)
Having said all that, the man shot at Stockwell was plainly murdered in cold blood, and I believe charges should be brought.
ObDisclosure: I'm a Londoner (born), grew up elsewhere, spent my 20s there until moving away after 9/11. (A month before 911 I was working next to the Nat West tower... and I frankly admit that the WMD stories were frightening me. Still do, as a matter of fact; it's only a matter of time before amateur WMD of some sort kills 5, 6 or 7 figure numbers of people somewhere in Europe or the USA.
PS final note - I was once jumped by the Special Patrol Group (wrong place/time), forced to lie on the ground with cuffs on, searched, briefly questioned and released. At the end they filled in a couple of forms & handed me reciepts, they explained that these were so that -they-, the police, could be identified if I wanted to complain about them; that the record of the stop & search would stay on file for six months, and would be destroyed after that. Assuming that this was accurate (which I think is probable) I think that's the way it should be. I now have a rather sensitive job; I'm not security cleared but others I work with are, and I may have to be formally vetted / sign the Official Secrets Act at some point. I don't expect the search incident to cause any problems with that. However, I've just realised I'd better post this anonymously...
Re:Due to excessive bad posting (Score:3, Interesting)
I read the article and they really fucked this guy over. He will be stigmatized for the rest of his life, no matter what he looked like. How many others have they done this too?
Fact is (Score:2, Interesting)
Its going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The third reich was about privatising everything, the police, the prisons, the military etc. Reducing police to being enforcers for the corporations. It is only a matter of time before people are not only being arrested for "suspicious" activity, but prosecuted for it as well. Even though their actions are the normal everyday activities we all do. In that situation, the law becomes arbitrary and is used to target certain "unfreindly" people. (liberals, hippies, intellectuals etc., anyone who doesn't fit into an arbitrarily dictated "normality")
For years I've wanted to visit the country of my ancestors, Scotland, Wales and Ireland. I would not dare to set foot in those places now, with my hair being long, my backpack being large, and my attitude towards police states being what it is. I like my freedom to wander without fear of being murdered or detained because I don't behave within certain parameters dictated by the State.
Welcome to the Fourth Reich. Enjoy your stay, but dont let anyone see you doing it. But dont try to hide your activities either.
Re:This could be abused to the breaking point (Score:5, Interesting)
Count that out. That's 3 seconds inbetween shots:
BANG!.. one.. two.. BANG!... one... two BANG!.. one.. two.. BANG!
And that's just 4 shots, there's no way this was anything but cold blooded murder. WAKE UP PEOPLE! You have more to fear from your own government than from terrorists.
Re:the defense of liberty (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:just some balance here (Score:2, Interesting)
The reason "some of us think it is more important to question the motivations of western authorities" is this: western authorities are large and in charge, and groups such as Al Quaeda are pathetic by comparison. The threat of police state terrorism looms larger--and more plausibly--than any loose affiliation of Muslim extremists. If you don't see this, you have not been paying attention, to current events or to history.
Are we to change our way of life because of a single fat lip? For all the horror of 9/11, there hasn't been an attack on American soil since. And that's not because of a competent administration or the Patriot Act's draconian measures. It is because there are so few competent terrorists. It would be a gross overstatement to label the threat A PHANTOM MENACE, but I don't hear the media bleeting for a police crackdown on fast drivers, even though such drivers kill more Americans every year than terrorists ever have.
Your argument shows contempt for the words of America's founding fathers. You're going to have to flippantly dismiss Mr. Franklin one more time: Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety
Re:the defense of liberty (Score:4, Interesting)
well at least they gave him a lot of good reasons! In the US they would never explain why you're being arrested unless you happen to meet an extra nice officer, otherwise you'd be waiting to hear why from your attorney.
They do have some good reasons:
--they found my behaviour suspicious from direct observation and then from watching me on the CCTV system;
--I went into the station without looking at the police officers at the entrance or by the gates;
--two other men entered the station at about the same time as me;
--I am wearing a jacket "too warm for the season";
--I am carrying a bulky rucksack, and kept my rucksack with me at all times;
--I looked at people coming on the platform;
--I played with my phone and then took a paper from inside my jacket.
think they left out "you're a male" and "you're between the ages 18 to 40" though.
However I think the rest of what happens is absurd. Here's the quick run down:
--they inspect all his stuff
--they take him to the police station and book him (fingerprints, photos, DNA, etc)
--they put him in a cell for hours
--they search his apartment (WTF??) and take all his computer equipment (!!!!), private photos, address books, and other stuff they dont even know about
--he's questioned for hours and released nearly 24 hours after first being arrested (!!) AND THEY KEEP HIS CELLPHONE!
This should have stopped after the inspected his bag AT THE STATION and realized there was no bomb.
Good thing i live in the US.
Re:the defense of liberty (Score:3, Interesting)
This will entail the intrusion of the government on your civil liberties in one form or another.
Now, if you're willing to completely exonerate the government from wrongdoing--say by passing a law that says the government can't be held legally responsible for incidents or accidents that happen under its purview--then you can have your civil liberties. You may also have a bomb on your bus, but it's worth it to avoid the occasional nerd getting hassled by the cops, right?
Re:the defense of liberty (Score:3, Interesting)
Why we should care...or not. (Score:1, Interesting)
A terrorist has liberty to move throughout society unhindered. This freedom allows him to place a bomb that kills innocent people. His hope is that we will be so offended by the death we will do what he wants.
We have three choices: 1) give up our values and do what he wants (something that the USA and Britan are not prepared to do), 2) restrict liberty and try to prevent the terrorist act or 3)leave our liberties intact, admit that there will be many more terrorist acts and admit the resulting deaths are the high cost of freedom.
Once the terrorist act becomes a "ho hum" event, the terrorist will discover that the terrorist act does not accomplish what he wants and it does not inspire terror among the populace. Only then will terrorism cease to be effective.
It is only when the society reacts by saing "nothing newsworthy here move on" will the terrorist give up the terror weapon.
You can not have security and freedom at the same time. Pick only one and you will loose both.
Anarchist's Cookbook (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:the defense of liberty (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:the defense of liberty (Score:2, Interesting)
Sorry, no... The stated example was a blonde, blue-eyed bomber.
McVeigh is brown haired, brown eyed.