Patriot Act to be Expanded 1523
m4dm4n writes "It seems that the patriot act is being expanded rather than scaled back after a vote late Tuesday by the Senate Intelligence committee. The FBI has gained new powers to demand documents from companies without a judge's approval, as well as the ability to designate subpoenas as secret and punish disclosure of their existence with up to one year in prison."
Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Interesting)
Five years of Bush! (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Short said: (Score:2, Interesting)
Remember, you can't be with us if you criticise us. And if you aren't with us, you're with the terrorists.
Re:Not passed yet. (Score:2, Interesting)
But seriously folks, this is getting scary.
Meanwhile in Denmark... (Score:3, Interesting)
Remember this is the country where Bjorn Lomborg was given a post as a director of an Environmental Institute.
Fascists are really grabbing for power around the world.
Re:America's been through worse and survived (Score:5, Interesting)
This is why I joined the Free State Project (Score:5, Interesting)
Here in New Hampshire, even with just over a hundred people moved, we're already making a difference.
Put aside your preconceptions about New Hampshire (it's not THAT cold, people), about Libertarians (We're a wide mix of positions, from very moderate to extreme), about politics (NH's system is amazingly and uniquely open, and forget 20K, just a few thousand activists could make a huge difference here), and most of all, about liberty and freedom (What are you going to tell your children about what you did when they took your rights away bit by bit?)
Check out the Free State Project [freestateproject.org] now... we don't need 20K activists to move to make a difference, we just need you.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't like the Patriot Act either, but we aren't to the point where we have to fear being killed for critizing our leadership or laws either.
If your definition of freedom is not having to "fear being killed" by the people who are supposed to be looking out for you, then you deserve what you get.
I'm also amazed by people who use the argument "at least we're better off than ". That belief will keep you in line right up until America is the most abusive, corrupt, damning country in the world.
You really do deserve the rights we Europeans take for granted. Unfortunately you now need to fight for these.
Uncle Bush Needs You! (Score:2, Interesting)
A real picture from a poster in a train station in america apparently...
Hmmm...
Re:America's been through worse and survived (Score:3, Interesting)
-Nixon: I found some interesting comments in the news after the whole Deep Throat thing. In essence, seems like the FBI wanted to and almost managed to monitor every single member of organization whose only crime was their political view.
-Eugenics: Till the late 50s almost 100k "feeble-minded" people were sterilized, many of them because they somehow didn't follow "Christian moral standards." For example, let's say you're a teen and got raped then sent to an institution for such people. If you're unlucky enough (say your mother committed some crimes) then you could get sterilized as would your child (after of course being determined to be "feeble-minded " by a "specialist").
Nonetheless we have to oppose such things, so that they don't destroy the US. I've heard people who've lived through the above history say that our acceptance of presidential lies is disturbing. The government doesn't matter, society does and if we accept these losses of freedom as normal than it's all over. If kids are thought there is nothing wrong with such actions then everything will collapse.
I wouldn't call this idea an "expansion" (Score:3, Interesting)
If you breath into a paper bag for a few minutes then look at USAPA carefully, what you find is a bunch of restratints on how the executive branch operates removed; restraints that could slow down response in a "ticking time bomb" scenario. This kind of thing wouldn't have helped in the 9/11 scenario, but might have helped had had our act together an caught wind of the operation as it was unfolding.
My sense is these are not completely unreasonable changes; but the law was poorly conceived because it didn't introduce any mechanism that would audit the use of the expanded powers. I don't think that would pose any practical barrier to quick action. If you think that there are terrorists somewhere on I95 with a huge truck bomb, then do what you have to do, and we will sort things out later.
So, if the USAPA needs changing, it needs mechanisms of accountability built in to examine the executive's actions in a putative "ticking timb bomb scenario", after the need for desperate action has passed. That way, you don't create dank dark corners in which all kinds of nasty things could breed.
What makes the changes proposed here interesting is that they're not just removing restrictions on the executive branch -- they're proposing that the executive branch have powers that have heretofore been only granted to the judicial. They're proposing, in effect, an unofficial change in the constitution. A small one from some standpoints, but it's a shift of power between the branches of government. Up until now, if some government official wanted to poke around in my files, he'd better be able to convince a judge -- a judge who doesn't report to the same boss as him.
And still -- no accountability for how this power is used.
Re:Hurrah! (Score:3, Interesting)
There are public schools run by the various govts all over Europe and we still have the guts to tell our respective govts to go stuff themselves when we feel like it...
The issue isn't that schools are public, it's that the standards and teachings are fucked up, and that the people who should step in to make that shit stop (parents, teachers) are brainwashed enough to support it or not realize it (but... oh well... intelligent design rocks all the way doesn't it?)
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Interesting)
Unfortunately in America that's not really true because of the electoral college voting system. Unless you can turn enough people to flip the state majority from one party to another, then you have made NO difference. As far as voting goes, America is the least democratic of any election holding country in the world.
The electoral college system provides a sham decocracy that keeps the majority dumb "we're living in utopia" Americans happy with the fig-leaf appearance they're living in a democracy, while being able to ignore all votes except those from a handful of swing states where it can easliy be controlled.
Re:Home of the brave... (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Osama (Score:1, Interesting)
4. Osama bin Laden is still a CIA asset
Re:All this because of 9/11? (Score:1, Interesting)
You also don't have a clue as to how the USA govt. works. FYI, politicians can and do propose all sorts of boneheaded legislation. Most of it goes nowhere. Even that which becomes law still has to pass a test of constitutionality via the courts. Even then, if the bureaucratic culture does nothing, a law becomes meaningless through lack of interest.
I may choose to smoke a joint of reefer. I assume the risk. I may choose to drive on US-1 in Miami rush hour traffic. I assume the risk. However, when I go to work in my office, I am not assuming the risk that some brainwashed religious fanatic is going to fly a plane into the building.
Which brings up airport security. As a passenger, I'm willing to assume risk of terrorists blowing up my airplane and would rather not have the security. But, on the ground, I'm not willin gto assume the risk of airplane flying nto my building so I would rather have the airport security...
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:4, Interesting)
Slashdot admins, please consider this request. Form a politically active branch of
Or will you sit back, content with being another Anonymous Coward...
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Interesting)
The USA on the other hand is a democratic country in which freedom has always been a very important thing, a country that has always been trying to expand this freedom to the rest of the world and a country that has always had a large influence on the rest of the world. To see the freedom in this country - of all countries - deterioate this rapidly, is a lot more scary to the rest of the world than the situation in non-democratic and not really that influential countries like China or North Korea.
It's especially this influence the USA has on the rest of the world that makes this scary; think about the situation around DeCSS, the new German passport that has to contain RFID chips in order to get into the USA, requiring armed US air-marshalls on airplanes while the international agreement is: no guns in planes, invading iraq based on false claims about WMD etc. etc.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:A show of hands... (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Osama (Score:2, Interesting)
Found this interview:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/combating/bu sh_10-11d.html [pbs.org]
Interview back in October 11, 2001. Relevant question (of course, Bush does NOT answer it):
REPORTER: Mr. President, I'm sure many Americans are wondering where all of this will lead. And you've called upon the country to go back to business and to go back to normal, but you haven't called for any sacrifices from the American people. And I wonder, do you feel that any will be needed? Are you planning to call for any? And do you think that American life will really go back to the way it was on Sept. 10?
Clearly, works like this Patriot Act show America is far from "life as normal".
One small problem ... (Score:5, Interesting)
You might be well advised to find a better government sooner rather than later should you do so at all. As a citizen of another country with an arguably "better government" (Australia) I'd like to point out that (a) we're trying as hard as we can to be as stupid as America, and (b) Please, please, please put your vote to stopping this stupidity at it's source instead. If all the sane, smart Americans leave we're all f**ed.
Re:Five years of Bush! (Score:4, Interesting)
Nowadays:
We don't have to arbitrarily register with a city hall, just because we live there, that gets passed to anywhere (apart from to pay local taxes, and even that database is so screwed, they can't work out a correct bill, let alone identify anyone with it).
We don't have to carry any ID whatsoever. Some places (banks, video hire shops etc. require a letter saying you're resident at an address).
When you stay at a hotel here, you don't need to provide any ID whatsoever.
The police can request whatever info they want from anywhere. But they make the request to a court, which decides whether the request is a reasonable one, before the police turn up with their warrant.
About 10 years ago, I really wanted to emigrate to America. From travels, it seemed like a vibrant, forward thinking place.
These days, again from travels and experience, those same places are now seeming far more fearful, and closed minded..
These days, I'm always reminded of the old slogans "No taxation without representation" that led the (very justified) revolt.
These days, people just accept the 'tax' on blank media, and all kinds of goods, that just ends up filling the pockets of corporations, with no representation at all..
It sometimes looks as though it's merely taken a few hundred years for the US to get away from what it hated so much to such a point, it's become exactly what it fought against in the first place.
Re:All this because of 9/11? (Score:1, Interesting)
http://www.newstarget.com/000757.html [newstarget.com]
155 ephedra deaths called "tragic" while 100,000 prescription drug deaths ignored by FDA
http://www.consumersunion.org/pub/core_product_sa
December 30, 2003
CONSUMERS UNION PRAISES FDA MOVE TO BAN EPHEDRA
Yonkers, NY--December 30, 2003--Consumers Union (CU), the independent nonprofit publisher of Consumer Reports magazine, praised the FDA on Tuesday for taking action to ban dietary supplements containing ephedra.
As reported in the January issue of Consumer Reports, ephedra, an herbal substance also known as "ma huang," is a dangerous heart and central nervous system stimulant similar in effect to amphetamines and speed. The FDA has received at least 16,961 adverse event reports regarding ephedra supplements, including reports of heart attacks, strokes, seizures and fatalities.
Terrorists can attack your freedom... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe not a police state, but it certainly looks like its heading towards a democratic fascist state:
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism [wikipedia.org]
Mussolini, in a speech delivered on October 28, 1925, stated the following maxim that encapsulates the fascist philosophy: "Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato." ("Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State".) Therefore, he reasoned, all individuals' business is the state's business, and the state's existence is the sole duty of the individual.
Seems to sum up the Bush POV to me.
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh, wait. Nevermind.
Well hell, I've always wanted to go to Cuba, but faced government sanction if I did so. Now it's government sanction that will get me there.
Isn't it ironic?
KFG
Re:Home of the brave... (Score:2, Interesting)
Patriots... (Score:2, Interesting)
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
Wrong (Score:3, Interesting)
BTW, do not call them neo-cons. Call them Nazi-cons. It better describes their worldview.
So this is how... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Home of the brave... (Score:3, Interesting)
If you re-read this I think you will see the fourth amendment says you need more than just probable cause for search and seizures. You need a warrent and those warrents require probable cause supported by oath or affirmation.
Now there are many types of warrents, but in this context (as judges have upheld for centuries) it refers to a writ from a judge. This is ABSOLUTELY required or the 4th amendment has NO meaning. If any cop/agent and just say he feels he has probably cause (hey I got a feeling) then it means nothing. This is why a writ from a judge is required. The probable cuase must be brought before a judge who should unbiasedly judge if the probable cause is suffiecent. Without that, its nothing more than KGB time.
From Wikipedia: "A search warrant is a written warrant issued by a judge or magistrate which authorizes the police to conduct a search of a person or location for evidence of a criminal offense.
All jurisdictions with a rule of law and a right to privacy put constraints on the rights of police investigators, and typically require search warrants, or an equivalent procedure, for searches within a criminal enquiry. There typically also exist exemptions for "hot pursuit": if a criminal flees the scene of a crime and the police officer follows him, the officer has the right to enter an edifice in which the criminal has sought shelter.
Conversely, in authoritarian regimes, the police typically have the right to search property and people without having to provide justifications, or without having to secure an authorization from the judiciary."
This new expansion seems like they almost read this passage from Wikipedia about how authoritarian regimes work and said, "Damn that'd be nice! I want that!".
Some of us have just gotten to scared to protest (Score:3, Interesting)
You asked for it... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:You didn't hear this from me, but... (Score:1, Interesting)
This is the basis of the argument that she does not deserve liberty. Even on this hypothetical waiver of a fundamental right, she has already decided to surrender it.
This is on the short list of things worth killing or dying to preserve. If you choose comfort, convenience, or escape, instead of taking the risk and challenging tyranny, you are part of the tyranny.
It isn't pleasant to be stuck between the Scylla and Charibdes of supporting tyranny or sacrificing yourself as its victim, but that's the choice you must make.
Slow Down Cowboy!
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On the other hand... (Score:5, Interesting)
- The UK has a network of surveillance cameras that America's authoritarians can only dream about.
- The UK just had an election in which electoral fraud is strongly suspected, because the postal vote system was left open to abuse.
- In 2001 the Home Secretary described civil liberties as an "airy fairy" concern.
- The RIP Act makes routine surveillance of ordinary citizens a reality. It goes even further than the PATRIOT act, in that it requires ISPs to develop and install monitoring software at their expense, and makes it a criminal offense to refuse to incriminate yourself by handing over your encryption keys on demand. Oh, and it also makes it an offense to tell anyone you're being investigated or that you have been forced to hand over your keys, so much for freedom of speech.
- The UK also amended the law in the 90s so that refusing to incriminate yourself could be used as evidence against you in court--i.e. there is no "right to silence".
- The current government is set on introducing a mandatory identity card with biometric features.
- The UK Official Secrets act allows people to be put on trial for crimes against the state, without being told what they actually did. (i.e. the evidence against them can be ruled secret under the act).
- Even though the ruling party deliberately lied to the country to support a war on Iraq, they were still voted back in with a huge majority--just like the situation in the US.
- The Criminal Justice Act of 2003 suspended the right to trial by jury, and suspended the "double jeopardy" limits, allowing the state to continue to harass people indefinitely.
- The new Home Secretary is now trying to undermine the right to a fair trial.
- The UK government handed over power over intellectual property legislation to the WTO, just like America did. Tough luck if you don't like software patents; the government doesn't have the power to decide not to allow them, because of the GATT TRIPS treaties signed in the 90s. (Signed even though many of us wrote letters to politicians, protested, etc.)
One of the reasons I left the UK is because the country is so damn complacent. For some reason, UK citizens don't care about the UK's lurch towards fascism; they're too busy looking at America and feeling smug. At least Americans seem to be aware of, and care about, their country becoming a fascist state, even if they are powerless to stop it.
Yeah, if you believe the talking heads. . . (Score:3, Interesting)
of a sinister shadow lurking, waiting to enslave us all is childish and should be left
at the movies.
The reason you find it hard to believe is that you are probably a human who wouldn't knowingly harm others for personal gain. However. . , it is entirely probable that the same kind of psychopathic behavior which led to the collapse of Enron and the trillion-dollar piracy which devastated more than 20 other huge corporations in the same six month period is also comfortably installed in the halls of government.
There are monsters out there, they lie amazingly well, have enormous charisma, and they are naturally drawn to and vie for positions of power from which to inflict their misery and chaos upon the world. Psychopathy is not a myth. It is a medically proven reality, and it is active in the world right now.
This does not mean that ALL of the government is bad. But it does mean that the highest seats of power are almost certainly occupied by a number of individuals with no compassion or ethics and who are hell-bent on torturing the world. Judge the tree by the fruit it bears!
Bush's weird speach and dialogue problems are typical of the psychopathic mind. Psychopaths who have been caught and studied illustrate this. Look it up. There's a lot of information for those who are willing to learn.
Either directly or indirectly a portion of the American government orchestrated the attack on 9-11 specifically to create the current situation.
Everybody has heard this before, and anybody who bothers to investigate the matter properly, (that is, beyond reading poorly researched and outright false articles in Popular Science, will come to the same conclusion. --If they have the courage to overcome the mountains of state-installed mind-programming and look the beast in the face without flinching.
-FL
Re:WWII Generation (was: My new empire!) (Score:5, Interesting)
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
--Bene Gesserit Litany against Fear
Re:WWII Generation (was: My new empire!) (Score:3, Interesting)
That's about all I have to add, as a fellow American.
Checks and balances, I hope, will yet be our saviours. The judicial system still seems to be keeping a decent check on Congress, and then of course we have the likes of Tom Delay making sure they keep a check on our judges...
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:3, Interesting)