France National Library Attacks Google Book Effort 899
An anonymous reader writes "The National Library of France is not happy with Google's effort to scan and integrate millions of books into its Web search. Jean-Noel Jeanneney, President of the library, wrote in an editorial that he is concerned Google's initiative to digitalize volumes at five leading libraries will reflect a unipolar worldview dominated by the English language and American culture. Jeanneney is pushing for European libraries to follow in Google's footsteps. Google said it was surprised by Jeanneney's remarks and noted, 'This is a first step for us; we can't do everything at once.'"
Re:Let's see if... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Great idea (Score:1, Informative)
So where exactly is the problem here?
Re:Strange... (Score:2, Informative)
It seems to me that this kind of complaint is exactly what you'd expect from a language snob. The French are always upset when things are done first in English because they think that everything should be done in French first.
Re:Of course it "invokes French ire" (Score:3, Informative)
They should LIKE this. This gives people all over the world in towns big and small access to books that they might otherwise never get to see for free (they'd have to buy the book). Google's effort will probably spawn others and that is where the French language/culture books (as well as those of other countries) come in.
Google tried to do something nice and pure, and they bitched. This is nothing but America bashing, pure and simple.
Besides, if Googlee did French books first, the Spanish would complain (as well as many Americans). So unless they did every language/culture at the start it would be "dominated by blah blah blah". And what company (even one as nice as Google) would undertake a program that big in the first place?
Nothing to see here but anti-US venom, move along.
Wrong translation (Score:5, Informative)
RTFS (Score:2, Informative)
You don't even have to be bothered to RTFA, it's in the fucking summary.
"Jeanneney is pushing for European libraries to follow in Google's footsteps."
Sounds an awful lot like he's trying to get people to scan books themselves, eh?
Re:Americans already hate France (Score:5, Informative)
From my experience, they don't. They even wonder why we Americans think that the French hate us. They were really confused by the freedom-fries debacle. OTOH, the Parisians are different, and more difficult, but that's not just towards Americans.
Re:Great idea (Score:3, Informative)
May I refer you to: "American View on Korean Broadband Leadership" [slashdot.org]
Sorry, the irony of the way you said what you were saying (despite the fact that your core point is, infact, correct) was just too rich to pass up.
Re:Americans already hate France (Score:4, Informative)
French Translation of editorial (Score:2, Informative)
The French have a good point (Score:1, Informative)
This is a legitimate concern. World history classes in US elementary schools (and some high schools) consist of the history of Western civilization to teh exclusion of the rest of teh world. At best, the non-Caucasian members of teh world are mentioned only in the context of their interactions with Western civilizations. Funny since last I checked the world consisted of more than the Greeks, Romans, British, French, and Americans and these other ppl had historical events, too. Mention of non-European countries and populations of non-Caucasians are largely restricted to the US civil rights movements, WWII, and the slave trade. Oh and the ancient Egyptians get a mention since they had a relationship with the Greeks. It isn't unreasonable to see Google's efforts as a manifestation of the same brand of tunnel vision.
Granted, complaints from the French about this are kinda weird since it's unlikely they wouldn't be represented in a clearly eurocentric compilation of literature. But they raise a good point and it leads to some important questions. Is Google also going to catalog the literature of the Chinese, Japanese, Zulus, Australian Aborigine, or Ainu? Will the works in the catalog only be that which fits conveniently into a Western format? Will Google's efforts inadvertently be used in the larger argument that non-American and non-Western forms of knowledge have no value?
I might mention this is being actively debated in academic circles right now. The French aren't the first to have voiced it but they probably the first to get a write up about it. A lot of ppl are happy Google's doing it. But just as many are concerned that they may wind up pushing a very, very America-centric view of what is and isn't legitimate literature on the rest of the world.
(almost a moot point since those who would likely be underrepresented probably don't even have internet access anyway)
Re:A little bit sore perhaps (Score:1, Informative)
A) None.
The crisis of the Revolution had passed before the colonists received any substantial military aid from abroad, and they would probably have won their independence had they been left wholly to themselves. [usgennet.org]
With respect to the following: What prompted the French government to interfere in behalf of the patriot cause in America was chiefly a desire to cripple and wound her old enemy, who had robbed her of her own fair dominion in the New World. [usgennet.org]
Whatever words were allocated for the "bailing out Colony asses" can now be reallocated to "Dammit, François, we surrendered again. Now someone else is going to have to beat our enemy."
Re:French have a point there (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Don't panic. (Score:5, Informative)
French scientists are not allowed to write publications in any language other than French
First, I worked for a French scientific institute last year (I am French), and I wrote some publications in English (proof here [inrialpes.fr]).
Moreover, I read an article 2 days ago saying that, in France, a lot of mathematical publications are writting in French and in the other scientific domains in English... No law here!
the french government decreed that the word e-mail is to be forbidden and replaced with made-up "courriel"
Wrong. French government has no power over the langage... It's the "Academie Française" which is supposed to tell how to spell words, and which words are French. The government wants its administration to speak French, and so wants it to use the word "courriel" which was declared French by the Academie Française - so it's logical. What would be your reaction if the American government doesn't want its administration to speak English?
I had to say that the Academie Française is sometimes not really well understood by a lot of French people (me included)...
Re:Don't panic. (Score:5, Informative)
The first point, government sponsored research papers MUST be written in french first. The official papers must be in french, but any number of translations can be made afterward. It's usually the same with universities and such. Since most research are sponsored by govt or uni, well, most papers are written in french. You know, when a french speaking govt. sponsors a research, is it weird for them to ask that the results are in french, for the benefit of the french people? How would you like, as an american uni, to sponsor someone for a research and he would submit a paper in arabic?
The second point is similar. They said that government related communications must use "courriel" instead of "email". I'd say it's a good thing, official communications should use the correct vocabulary. Using "email" would be the same as using leet speak in official govt. communications for example.
French is firstly a litterary language, while english became a business/everyday language and lots most of its litterary roots. English is made to be interroperable. French will usually use french, latin or greek roots to "invent" new words instead of adopting a foreign word. This usually preserves the litterary properties of the language. That's the big difference. Yeah, they can be anal about it sometimes, but then, who isn't?
The title is false ! Learn french ;-) (Score:2, Informative)
Re:why does france hate google? (Score:2, Informative)
not invisible? (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.alexa.com/site/ds/top_sites?ts_mode=glo bal&lang=none [alexa.com]
they are quite visible. In global top 20 web sites, 6 sites are chinese web sites.
a few facts missing in the news (Score:1, Informative)
1/the bnf have already been digitalizing books for years, and putting them avalaible on the the net here : http://gallica.bnf.fr/
2/for this work, bnf (french equivalent of the libraryof congress) has a budget ridiculous compared to what google is investing in this operation, but it's financed by tax pars; this is france
peronal opinion
3/he wants more money!!! that's all. he just want to digitalize more books, for example BNF is going
to digitalize newspapers from 19th century till 1945. And he needs more money to do so. all the buzz is making is just a way to get more money.
Make your own opinion and he's probably right in a way: google and all the search engines aren't that neutral
Re:Don't panic. (Score:1, Informative)
This is false.
Regardless of what your "friend" said, let me give you first hand information from a PhD economist---me. The field's most reputable journals in the world are all in English, and I can assure you that the French try to publish there as much as anyone else.
(One of the top journals, Econometrica, actually has an official policy to "consider papers written either in English or French"! I don't know how many decades it's been since a French article appeared, however.)
AC
Re:Don't panic. (Score:5, Informative)
French government has no power over the langage
Not quite right. The currently applied Toubon law forces e.g. every advertisement material using non-French language to provide a translated version somewhere in the ad (even as a footnote, that's why so many ads in France have footnotes
The government wants its administration to speak French, and so wants it to use the word "courriel" which was declared French by the Academie Française - so it's logical.
The word "courriel", though official French, is never used, either in administrative circles or other circles. That word is just too ugly. Everybody says "email" or "mail" like everyone else. The Académie Française can scream all they want, they won't change that one, just as they couldn't turn "bowling" into "boulodrome"or "week-end" into "fin de semaine".
Languages are doomed to evolve. French is a language that does not want to evolve very much, but it is hopeless. It is never a good thing to try and resist evolution
Re:why does france hate google? (Score:4, Informative)
Remember that France was a colonial power back in the day.
Re:Compete instead of Complain (Score:3, Informative)
No, "they" did not. The person in this context is not the same entity that tried legal action against Google, and has absolutely no affiliation. Please stop tying together unrelated parties in a mythical conspiracy web because of their nationality.
> They say that Google will index more English text
It will.
> and thus end up greatly influencing the public
Possibly. However, the solution proposed is *not* to stop google; it's to do the same themselves. This is akin to someone saying "Hey, the Soviets are trying to launch a man into space! Lets launch one first!", and people interpreting it as "Hey, the Soviets are trying to launch a man into space! Lets bomb them on the launch pad!".
> I am sure Google will not stop any French company or thier government
> from creating their own serach engine and index all the books they want
1) Nobody is suggesting that they will
2) They already have a search engine. It is underfunded, and hence the editorial encouraging more funding.
> banning the use of words like 'e-mail'
Only from government documents. Citizens can call it "couriel", "email", or even "wizzlewozzle" if they want.
> they just want to complain some more
Says the pot to the kettle.
Re:why does france hate google? (Score:2, Informative)
Of the top of my head : walkman, vespa, frigidaire, kleenex... I'm sure you can find dozens more.
As for the creation of "courriel", there are many similarly created words for technical terms, most quite ridiculous, but some did stuck, although they're almost never used by real techies, only by journalists.
Re:Don't panic. (Score:3, Informative)
I [lip6.fr] beg [lirmm.fr] your [univ-orleans.fr] pardon [inria.fr] ??
It is true that French scientists - who happen to have a civil servant status - are often required to produce reports in French. I don't know where you got the idea that they are forbidden from publishing anything in English.
Another example: a few years ago, out of a sudden, the french government decreed that the word e-mail is to be forbidden and replaced with made-up "courriel".
Yeah, Heaven forbid that people speaking a different language try to create new words for new things instead of just adopting English ones !
BTW, the word "courriel" was coined by the Quebecois.
Thomas-
Re:MOD PARENT UP (Score:1, Informative)
Germany, Japan, and China all have standards bodies for the language. German is more or less an academic's society, but the latter two are governmental bodies (it's important when you have ideographs, to standardize their codepoints in a character set and have a canonical representation for them)
Re:Inflammatory headline is well deserved. (Score:3, Informative)
France is a wonderful place to visit if you speak at least a little French. I've been there a couple of times and generally been treated quite well, even by their notoriously prickly waiters. I love the habit they have of never bringing the check until you ask for it. Of course if you don't make an effort to fit in at least a little bit they will react negatively.
I think their attitude is that they are really good friends with us on the whole, and that gives them the right and duty to criticize us.
After 9.11.01 Le Monde led with an editorial 'Nous Sommes Tous Americans'. I think that said a lot about the real ties between France and the US.
Of course like in any country there are chauvanistic idiots, but you have to realize that is a reaction to some unfortunate recent political issues rather than any sort of long term emnity.
Re:This sensitivity tells you... (Score:5, Informative)
It isn't about language, it's about culture. It isn't that the French see no value in American culture, it's that they see value in their own culture. Furthermore, they most definitely are not keeping it static -- it continues to evolve in interesting ways.
I can't comment on Canada, as I've never lived there. But France is a very interesting country, and their policy of cultural protectionism is not "enforced". The truth is that the French people care deeply about their language, their culture, etc, and they support taking active steps to protect it from an increasingly ubiquitous American cultural influence.
Frankly, it shows. When you're in France, you can hear a lot of French music on the radio, there's a lot of French literature, and just a general feeling of pride in their culture. Across the border in Germany, radios play mostly American/English music, local bands often sing in English (despite being German) because it's considered "cool", and people seem a bit embarassed by things that are German. Sweden is even worse. My impression, as an outsider, is that French culture is vibrant, and the rest of Europe is being Americanized.
And I think this fact is not lost on the French, who understand that preventing American corporate interests (ie, the RIAA and MPAA, for example) from culturally subverting them by, say, forcing some percentage of music played on the radio to be in French, by promoting French films, etc, has had a net positive effect. Young people in France are much more "French", it seems -- in the sense that they are connected to the culture of their country -- than people from Germany or say, England are.
Which is not to say that other European countries are not considerably different from America or anything. Just that the French, as a people, care more about their culture, and take steps to protect it.
And it seems to be working.
Anyway, with respect to this article, the title was mistranslated. [slashdot.org]
Re:why does france hate google? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Americans already hate France (Score:3, Informative)
The French speak very directly and do not appreciate undue familiarity from people they don't know. French, like most European languages other than English, has an active T-V distinction (they have two forms of you, one of which is formal) and they rely heavily on this and other niceties in speech to indicate politeness. Americans, and to a lesser extent the English, depend greatly on tone and facial features to communicate politeness. That is, Americans think they're being polite if they're being friendly.
I'll give you a concrete example. I was in at CDG airport in Paris and I needed to fill out an immigration form. I realized that I didn't have a pen. I went over to the airport security office that was right there and asked if I might borrow one. What I said was exactly what I might say in English, although I used vous (polite) rather than tu (impolite). I said, "Excuse me, but do you have a pen I might use?" I said it with a smile and in a friendly way.
The lady responded, very curtly, also with vous: "Sir, you might consider saying please." She was older than I was. I realized that I had been away from France too long; I had committed a cultural faux pas. To an American, her response was rude. In France, a woman the age of my mother (who works with the police to boot) chastising me for my lack of politesse is absolutely kosher, and I was in the wrong. But had I been more American, I would have certainly bristled at her perceived rudeness. Instead, I appologized, said please, and got the pen.
It's important to realize that neither way of interfacing with people is wrong, per se. Rather, it's a question of norms. The problem is that the French care about different things than Americans do. They care a lot less about your tone and whether you smile or not, and a lot more about whether you address them correctly (Monsieur, Madame, never a first name), greet them properly when you meet them, use vous where appropriate, etc.
It's especially important if you're dealing with people older than yourself. People your own age are likely to be much more friendly and relaxed, adding to the confusion -- age is a big factor in determining how polite you need to be.
If you think France is bad, try Japan, or even worse, Korea.
Total fucking anti-French bullshit!!! (Score:5, Informative)
That's all he says. Nothing more and nothing less. It's not an attack on Google, and it's not an attack on English and it's not an attack on the US.
But that wouldn't stop the rabid morons from posting an inflammatory anti-French article, now would it.
Re:why does france hate google? (Score:3, Informative)
That's a perfect example but not for the reasons you think. The academie francaise used to recommend "mél" (for "message electronique"), but nobody used that. Someone in Quebec (not France) thought of "courriel" instead, and that became quickly popular in France too. The Academie Francaise was following popular usage in recommending "courriel", not dictating it.
Re:why does france hate google? (Score:2, Informative)
Actually, there are lots of them. "Frigidaire", for example.