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Software Freedom Law Center vs Theo de Raadt
Posted by
Zonk
on Sun Sep 16, 2007 03:31 PM
from the steady-now-steady dept.
from the steady-now-steady dept.
An anonymous reader writes "In a recent public posting to the Linux Kernel mailing list the founder of the Software Freedom Law Center, Eben Moglen, lashed back at OpenBSD creator Theo de Raadt without actually mentioning his name. 'What has happened is that people who do not have full possession of the facts and have no legal expertise — people whom from the very beginning we have been trying to help — have made irresponsible charges and threatened lawsuits, thus slowing down our efforts to help them.' Moglen pointed out that they have and continue to help all open source projects, including OpenBSD, but the process takes time. 'The required work has been made more arduous because some people have chosen not to cooperate in good faith. But we will complete the work as soon as we can, and we will follow the community's practice of complete publication, so everyone can see all the evidence.'"
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An anonymous reader writes "The highly publicized debate between Theo de Raadt and the Software Freedom Law Center seems to have come to an amicable end. SFLC has published its research on the lineage of the ath5k driver and determined who owns which changes. In the end, everyone agreed to license their modifications to the Linux driver under the BSD license, and OpenBSD developers can now reincorporate those improvements into the original code (with the exception of one historically GPL-licensed branch)." The article notes that Theo de Raadt has not responded publicly to this development but that comments on the issue in an OpenBSD Journal forum have been generally positive.
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Shades of grey do not a good argument make (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a software developer, and I don't always write open-source code. I've written plenty of OS code, contributing to PHP, GCJ, SDL etc. and I GPL'd my geolocation website [hostip.info], but I also write commercial code.
It can be hard to see a perfectly good piece of code, that does exactly what you want, and then have to go and re-implement it yourself, but that's what the GPL requires, and that's what I do. At the moment, I'm drawing over 1000 tiles for a CIV-2 type game, because the 'freeland' tiles are GPL, and having to put the amount of work in to duplicate it that I am doing, I completely understand why.
I think that if anyone relicenced any of my OS code under their own, more restrictive (to pluck an example out of the air: GPL rather than BSD) licence, I would be incensed. It remains to be seen if this has happened within Linux, and if it has, hard questions are going to require very good answers..
Simon
Re:Shades of grey do not a good argument make (Score:5, Insightful)
The current 3 clause BSD license allows someone to release derived works under the GPL (or under closed-source commercial license). If you don't like that, then don't use the 3 clause BSD license. Licenses have specific meaning that should be understood before they are used.
Re:Shades of grey do not a good argument make (Score:5, Insightful)
You can add the GPL to it if you like. It's allowed. You CANNOT do what the Linux people did and then REMOVE the BSD license from the code. The code remains licensed under the BSD license. Any changes you make can be other another license, but the original BSD license and attribution MUST be kept.
The other important parts that the Linux people keep on trying to cover up is that while parts of the code in question were dual-licensed under the BSD license and the GPL, parts were BSD-ONLY and could not have the BSD license removed from them.
It's also highly ironic that the "Software Freedom Law Center" is fighting to restrict freedom and prevent the BSD projects from using this code.
Re:Shades of grey do not a good argument make (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, it does. But, and this is the important part that the Linux people keep on conveniently forgetting: IT DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO REMOVE THE ORIGINAL LICENSE!
It doesn't have to. If a product is dual licensed, and you choose License A over License B, you are not bound to the terms of License B . License B has no legal bearing on the relationship between the licensor and licensee. It is effectively nothing but "plain text", modifiable under the terms of License A, if License A permits modification. After all, if License A is accepted, it becomes the de facto copyright notice.
Re:Shades of grey do not a good argument make (Score:5, Insightful)
Heck, even if I did upgrade a license to GPL v3+ from GPL v2+ I would still include a notice that some parts were licensed under the older license. I don't think I have to say which parts those are, however.
I am not saying this is legal or not. I am saying it seems questionable to my mind.
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You do not have a right to sublicense a copyrighted work unless that right is explicitly granted to you by somebody who has the right to do so. In the case of BSD or GPL licensed
Re:Shades of grey do not a good argument make (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Shades of grey do not a good argument make (Score:5, Insightful)
*yawn* (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course what's the point of being nutty if you can't bend/forget/reassemble reality to get really good and frothed up. This issue is really two separate issues, but if you read any n post you quickly see that there's not even a pretense of separation any more (it's wide open bitch season baby!). The issue started with a patch that stripped the BSD copyright notice on code that was originally released BSD/GPL2 (then modified BSD). This was wrong, but it was just some guy doing it (ie...er, not the 'Linux community'). It never made it into any upstream repos. It was loud as everyone got really bitchy about it but the fact is it wasn't 'sanctioned' action and no-one was actually trying to do, well, anything. The issue was quickly resolved.
The issue that's really at hand that's being mostly swept under the carpet is long standing resent for the GPL community for regularly 'stealing' BSD code. Not violating the copyright mind you, but using the free software in GPL projects then not providing the patches or changes made back to the BSD community (because all the GPL work is...GPL and not reverse compatible).
So on one hand you've got the nuts, constantly harping on this non-issue. On the other you have the developers who (at least in part) feel 'cheated' and consider it hypocritical for one open source group to benefit from the other without making the open code available to the other (which is the real issue). Then you have the license issues where things start to fall apart a bit. Since the BSD allows for use that closes code off (true freedom) this isn't even about the code not being available. Or, if it is, it's about a segment of the BSD community which appears to want to put more restriction on their code then the (permissive) BSD currently does. Which is kind of ironic really.
As much as I like RMS it looks like BSD just got their own with Theo. And he has followers.
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Also I agree that the copyright notices were probably prematurely altered. A safer approach might be to use language like:
"Portions may b
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IANAL, and I think you are missing the point (Score:5, Insightful)
The current 3 clause BSD license allows someone to release derived works under the GPL (or under closed-source commercial license). If you don't like that, then don't use the 3 clause BSD license. Licenses have specific meaning that should be understood before they are used.
The large issue has to do with whether the BSD license allows for sublicensing (i.e for a licensee to offer a portion of his/her rights to a downstream licensee as a separate license). I personally don't think it does. Instead, I see the BSD license as a direct grant of rights to anyone who gets a copy of the source code.
In the case of a derivative work, nothing here prevents you from enforcing your own copyrights in any way you see fit (as long as you obey the terms of the BSD License). However, you cannot dictate to other people what terms govern the code which was provided to you under a nonexclusive BSD license. This is actually a big difference. Mr Moglen is on record saying that he thinks that the BSD license allows for this sort of sublicensing, and I disagree.
Re:IANAL, and I think you are missing the point (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is your legal opinion on the issue even slightly relevant?
Eben Moglen is a lawyer who has been asked for legal advice on this issue by programmers to whom it directly matters and has provided an informed legal opinion. I haven't seen that opinion, so I don't know if you're characterizing it correctly - but that doesn't matter to my comment here. In contrast to Moglen, you are some guy one Slashdot who admits to not being a lawyer and probably isn't even involved in this particular dispute.
Why are you providing legal advice on this issue?
Re:IANAL, and I think you are missing the point (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Lawyers are sometimes wrong. I have seen people get into serious trouble because of bad legal advice.
2) When a lawyer is wring, you have very little recourse.
So, the question is not about what I think or what Eben thinks. It is what a judge would decide if a case came down to it. In essence the question is what the law is. (and bad legal advice is no excuse in the eyes of the law.) Hence everyone should do what they can to understand the laws that affect them.
Also I am not saying that Eben is generally wrong about copyright matters. Most of the details he has provided to me about how copyright works even in an international setting have been accurate and insightful. We just disagree about the interpretation of the BSD License and whether it follows the licensed code. While this disagreement is critical in cases like the Atheros driver spat, and in questions of GPL3 compatibility, it is moot for most other sorts of questions.
My major point is that people should seek assistance from a real and unbiased attourney. I am not a real attourney and Mr Moglen is not exactly unbiased.
(Note that the danger of bias is that it can tilt one's interpretation of finer points in unteneble directions. Not that someone will be wrong about most cases, but just that it increases the odds of a dangerous bit of advice being issued.)
Re:Shades of grey do not a good argument make (Score:5, Insightful)
Section 7 GPLv3 says:
[...]
b) Requiring preservation of specified reasonable legal notices or author attributions in that material or in the Appropriate Legal Notices displayed by works containing it
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That's not to say that I can stomach the other side. Stallman is a fruitcake, the kind of guy that sensible people would be crossing the proverbial street to avoid rather than p
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As far as I can see, the BSD license doesn't have a clause that says "you may also exchange this license by any other license you wish."
It allows a lot, like including it in a larger package that has its own completely different license; even in packages
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Re:Shades of grey do not a good argument make (Score:5, Insightful)
I haven't seen anywhere where Eben Moglen (or anyone else for that matter) has condoned misattribution. In this case what I have seen is 1.) loud people threatening legal action and 2.) Eben Moglen, a lawyer, shutting up in response while continuing to try to resolve any actual problems that are present. That's how things should be.
Re:Shades of grey do not a good argument make (Score:4, Insightful)
The GPL does not require you to re-implement, however, if you refuse to adhere to the GPL which made the code available to you in the first place then yes you must re-implement. The GPL did not force you into that situation, your need to avoid GPLing your own work is what forced the situation.
This makes absolutely no sense what so ever. You are okay with someone taking your code that you released under a BSD license and creating a closed source proprietary product which may restrict access to code, copying, reverse engineering, etc. etc., but when someone uses it to create a GPLed product you suddenly take issue? wtf? It seems that your quandary has more to do with your dislike of the GPL than it does with what someone does with your code. Even if the GPL were some ridiculous draconion software license removing all the rights of humanity their is no sense in whining about how the code was used when its being used in the way it was intended.
If the BSD license was not followed then there is an issue, but if the license was followed and the resulting code was released under the GPL then there is absolutely no issue.
Need to clarify dual-licensing (Score:5, Insightful)
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Again, IANAL. If this point matters to you, your safest bet is to hire a real and an unbiased attourney.
The right to sublicense is a very special right under copyright law, and my reading of cases like Gardner
Oh (Score:5, Funny)
Whereas an explicit attack would have been way too common to be featured as news
I have the perfect solution (Score:5, Funny)
I would suggest to Theo that if he wants those GPL slackers to give back to the BSD community and not run roughshod over the BSD license that he add a simple provision that forces the miscreants to give back their improvements.
In fact, in the interest of sharing hard work freely with others, I happen to have a draft copy of what such a license would look like right here [gnu.org].
P.S.
The license shown even encourages non-GPL borrowers to keep their code open, all for the same low price.
Infighting between the hairy guys & gals (Score:2)
Learn from the diplomats (Score:2, Insightful)
"Let me therefore point out one last time that if the threats of litigation and bluster about crime and malpractice--none of which has the slightest basis in fact or law--were withdrawn, we would be able to resume detailed communication with everyone who
Do you know WHY he gave that advice? (Score:4, Insightful)
Eben has a very good reason for advising them against such talks: Theo & co. are tossing around legal threats. It would be malpractice for him to recommend anything that might get his clients in legal trouble. It may not be very polite, but it is the law. It's ironic, because last I knew, the code was remove, and the guy with the dual-license said he was okay with it, though another guy wasn't. Now all we have left is people shooting their mouths off and opining about what should or ought to be the case, even when those hypothetical situations have nothing to do with what actually happened.
If Theo wants to make legal arguments, he can make them in court.
If Theo wants to do diplomacy, he can drop the legal threats.
Frankly, I almost wish Theo'd sue. Then we'd find out whether the non-lawyer or the lawyer was actually right about what the law said. And maybe, just maybe, the one who was wrong about the law would shut the hell up already.
Yeah, I know. It's not like that will ever happen.
Both sides are right (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't say this to be PC or placate anyone, but both sides appear to be right. Theo's side is correct that attribution was conspicuously absent. Eben's side is correct to admit it, and to fix it. Eben's side is also correct that threatening to litigate against a bunch of lawyers probably has repercussions. I think that's all Eben is saying here -- he is not saying "we won't change it, nyah!" But what he is saying is that since the response to his mistake was threats of lawsuit, his legal team has been forced to engage in S.O.P. for such cases, and withdraw. He feels that is a shame, because he's trying to work for Theo's group. But Theo's group is already casting aspersions on Eben's motives.
If it were me, I would simply do both what Theo's team is asking, and what the lawyers are asking: fix the mistakes until Theo's team is satisfied, and then withdraw. If you're withdrawing because you hate 'em now and want to scream & shout, fine to feel that way, but maybe don't say it. If you're withdrawing under protest because you feel that you should/could have done more good things together, fine to feel that way, but face facts: the relationship is poisoned at this point. Get out before the venom poisons the relationship more. Especially if the group is suspicious of your motives and is tarnishing your reputation by saying nasty stuff about you -- just get the hell away from it, spend your limited resources to help groups who are more gracious and less prone to paranoia.
If you do that, everyone wins. Theo's group gets rid of the suspicious betrayers they no longer want in their midst, and Eben's group gets away from a reputation-damaging public fight and money pit. There may also be karma -- perhaps Theo's group learns that they really needed Eben, and is forced to behave more politely with whoever next helps out. And perhaps Eben learns to be more careful up front, lest all his relationships end badly. Or perhaps, as Dane Cook says, they will "stick with the relationship for a few more years and end things violently."
BSD code can't be relicenced - it can be linked! (Score:5, Informative)
If you are using a piece of BSD-licensed code, you must forever obey those three terms. They allow you to LINK code against any code - GPL, proprietary, whatever. BUT, you must always reproduce the copyright notice and the list of conditions. Nothing gives you the right to remove them.
So, you can create a derivative work that uses both GPL and BSD code, but that BSD code hasn't become GPL'd and you must still obey the terms of the BSD license. This is a common misconception because the BSD license's terms are so liberal. So, Linux (and other GPL projects) can appropriate code from the BSD world provided that they obey the three terms listed in the BSD license. GPL projects can add GPL code to BSD code in the same file, but until the BSD code is gone from that file - which would probably happen over years of rewrites - they have to obey those three clauses. No where does the BSD license say "you can disobey these clauses because you've changed the license."
Enforceability of contracts is what makes the GPL work. If the GPL world says it doesn't work when it's someone else's license, their projects are in deep trouble. And to think, this whole mess could be solved by simply removing that stupid relicense crap which has almost no practical implication other than GPL-ego.
Re:BSD code can't be relicenced - it can be linked (Score:5, Interesting)
Most people belive that means you can either accept the BSD terms or accept the GPL terms (and from then on follow only the one chosen set of terms). Theo seems to be claiming that you somehow have to follow both sets of terms. I guess it depends on your definition of "alternatively".
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Your conceit is slimier than you are making it appear. You are leaving out the step where the duality of the license is conveyed by the original developer. Or are you just assuming that if you come across any source code with both the BSD and GPL license
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My guess is that they don't go after large established BSD projects because of the bad press it would generate and the fact that the issue is
The Actual BSD License (Score:5, Insightful)
Since previous iterations of this discussion have been dominated by wildly inaccurate characterizations of the BSD license, it seems only proper to actually include it:
http://ftp.bg.openbsd.org/OpenBSD/src/share/misc/license.template [openbsd.org]
To break it down even further:
Now, obviously, slapping a copy of the GPL in the file is within your rights to “use, copy modify, and distribute” the software. However, it is entirely pointless to do so: the GPL places additional restrictions on what you may or may not do with the code, yet those restrictions are voided by the fact that the BSD license — and, let’s not forget, removing the BSD license is the one thing that the license forbids — grants you those very rights that the GPL takes away. In order for the restrictions of the GPL to be effective, you must remove the BSD license, which you cannot legally do.
Now, can we please stop this nonsense about the BSD license giving you the right to re-license code under the GPL?
Cheers,
b&
Re:The Actual BSD License (Score:4, Insightful)
Nice legal theory, but copyright licenses work like logical ANDs not ORs. All it takes is for someone to add some modifications "/* Modifications copyright (c) CCYY YOUR NAME HERE are licensed under the GPLv2 */ and it can only be distributed under terms compatible with both the BSD license AND the GPL license, which effectively means the GPL license. Unless the license says something about the "work as a whole" which is the so-called viral aspect of the GPL, you need a separate license for the modifications and the copyright holder of those modifications sets those terms. Note that there's no way a license can void someone else's copyright, the GPL merely states that if you can't simultaniously fulfill the GPL and the other licenses, you must refrain from distributing entirely.
Consider the source (Score:5, Interesting)
- The FSF's chief legal counsel, Eben Moglen, is "arrogant and unscrupulous" as well as "crafty and cowardly"
- Moglen has a "stated goal" that he's breaking the law by "stealing as much software as possible and putting it under the GPL even when doing so is illegal"
- The FSF is fighting a "war against reality"
- The only reason the FSF exists is to "keep stealing code until they get busted, go to court, and then go back to stealing as much code as possible."
Oh, and the "delusional and deranged" Richard Stallman is leading anyone who uses the GPL to a Jonestown-style koolaid suicide.Why does anyone bother reading JC Roberts' nuttery? He sounds like he's either 14 years old, off his meds, or both.
Confusion on Relicensing (Score:4, Insightful)
If you look at source from projects like FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, and my own DragonFly project, as well as virtually any other large BSD project, you will find that a huge number of source files contain multiple licenses. Nearly all such licenses are BSD-derivative. The issue here is not the presence of multiple licenses but instead how they should be interpreted.
I and all the open source authors I know have always interpreted the presense of multiple licenses as a union of license terms as it pertains to the portions of the source file created or modified by the authors in question. For example, if you went back in the CVS history of a source file and pulled at that older version of the code, potentially with fewer licenses attached to it, then you would be able to operate on that older version of the code and be bound only to the licenses that existed at that time. Another example, if person A builds a piece of software and applies the BSD license to it, and later on person B makes changes (or not) and adds the GPL to the code (if we assume for the moment that this is legal to do)... then all you have to do to get out of the GPL is to simply use a version of the source file where the GPL is not present. That's it. Even if the added GPL were interpreted as being illegal that still does not give you the right to use the second author's modifications to the work when you refuse to accept the license. However, neither does it necessarily give the second author the right to use the original author's work, and that is what Theo is arguing right now. and I think Theo is correct in this case.
But again, regardless of how you interpret the legality or how you interpret the existence of multiple licenses in a piece of source code, the BSD license CANNOT be removed from that code, ever, by anyone except the copyright holder, for any reason.
So in my view it is 'ok' to make modifications to a piece of open source code and slap on your own license for those modifications as long as the existing licenses allow it and as long as the original authors intent is to allow it. I have always interpreted the BSD license as allowing that because that is always how BSD developers have always interpreted the presence of multiple licenses in BSD code in the past. BSD developers have always been very careful to not accept patches that add incompatible licenses for no good reason, and have always been careful to not use someone else's work in ways that was clearly not intended by the original authors, legal or not.
The spirit of the intent of the original author is what counts the most in the open source world. It is not a legal definition. It seems very clear to me that the ORIGINAL authors of the code that was relicensed do not wish it to be relicensed under the GPL. In the open source world, that trumps everything else. If they don't want it to be relicensed, then it can't be relicensed, period, regardless of the legalese. It is unarguable in the court of the open source world.
Now copyright law has its own interpretation of how licenses in derived works operate, even on the definition of what 'derived' means. From a purely legal standpoint -- that is, if one were to sue in court, the interpretation is going to be different from the interpretation of the open source community.
No matter what the legal interpretation is, though, I would not consider anyone creating a derived work from that code base and relicensing it under the GPL against the express wishes of the original authors to be part of the open source community any more. If these people are expressly going against the wishes of the original authors their modifications should be censored by our community, period.
-Matt
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Do I understand this correctly? (Score:3, Insightful)
* Althought the GPL coder was technically wrong, there was no harm done, and the situation has been fixed.
* The BSD community has been having a screeming bitch-fest for weeks, making all kinds of insane accusations and threats.
* Although the BSD community has no problem at with BSD code hidden in a msft binary, they get their panties all in a wad about BSD code put into Linux.
* Theo de Raadt is so bitchy and irratating that even his fellow BSD zealots can't stand him much of the time. And even though Theo is clearly unqualified about legal matters, much of the BSD is getting behind on this.
Is that about right?
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