India Decides to Vote "No" For OOXML 120
Indian writes to mention that after an intense meeting at Delhi's Manak Bhawan the 21-member technical committee has decided to vote against Microsoft's Open Office Extensible Mark Up Language (OOXML) standard at the September meeting of the International Standards Organization (ISO). "Microsoft said it respects the government's decision. 'There were only three options "Yes", "No" and "Abstain" to be taken and we respect the government's decision,' Microsoft's legal affairs head Rakesh Bakshi said. He, however, added that India's 'No' vote will become a 'Yes' if Microsoft is able to resolve all technical issues with OOXML before the ballot resolution committee of ISO."
"Technical Issues" (Score:1)
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Re:"Technical Issues" (Score:5, Insightful)
You know what the worst part is? Even if there weren't any "technical issues," OOXML shouldn't be a standard because ISO already has an existing standard covering the same thing! And that preexisting standard leverages other standards (eg. SVG, MathML) while Microsoft's travesty doesn't! So even regardless of "technical issues," making OOXML a standard is ludicrously stupid!
Re:"Technical Issues" (Score:5, Interesting)
I can only assume that Microsoft's stance on the open source community is to simply use their clout to get everyone to use their specifications, thus making it seem like they're cooperating with others. In reality they're just forcing their Johny-come-lately garbage down everyone's throat as usual. Unfortunately people want Microsoft on board with standards, so they apparently keep getting duped into doing whatever Microsoft wants them to do in the spirit of pseudo-cooperation. Yes India said "no" to OOXML, but it was qualified with room for negotiation. Don't think that this is a win for open standards just yet. It's not an open standard if only one company gets to dictate what that standard is.
Re:"Technical Issues" (Score:5, Insightful)
It's worse than that.
Consider a manager making a decision of which implementation of a standard to use. Is that person going to select the implementation by the originator of the spec or an implementation by a third party? It's about using the standard to ensure market dominance and put any competition on uneven footing.
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Technical issues can be fixed by changing the text, whilst General Comments (vague hand-wavey things) will be taken on board. Everything you mention could be classed as a technical issue, even the existance of OOXML
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They bribed DreamWorks? Then why do they use Linux [zdnet.com]? That's some bad bribing if you ask me.
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Re:Respect (Score:4, Informative)
No, Microsoft's statement was:
Amir Majidimehr, head of Microsoft's consumer media technology group.
It's called "plausible deniability".
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In case you missed it, Shrek came out in 2001...
Not according to The Economic Times (Score:2)
Good news... (Score:5, Insightful)
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I thought he was like the weird "friend of the family" who forced himself on almost all the girls before they learned how to say no...
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On the other hand, can you blame him? At the risk of sounding a little weird myself, is it just me, or did India become a little, um, top-heavy over summer vacation?
No need to worry... (Score:4, Funny)
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Is MS Office really that bad to compare it to a guy that treats women as objects?! Personally I think MS Office is by far Microsoft's best application and they deserve credit for it.
MS Office 2007's UI revamp was also a big deal. It makes it much easier to make full use of all of Office, and I'll bet you anything that OpenOffice and iWork wi
Re:Good news... (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple bug reports requesting open standards (Score:1)
I know of people, myself included, who have been after Apple for years to support OpenDocument. (Yeah, it's been that long already.) As far as I can tell, the way their bugreporter [apple.com] is set up it's not possible to view other people's bugs. That means that all requests for supporting open standards get blown of as "duplicate" without being able to see the original or its status.
It'd be really interesting to know the real reasons Apple's still failing to support formats like OpenDocument and Ogg. Ogg ente
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When they actually do that, get back to me, and I will give them credit. An open standard, OOXML is not. That's my real gripe.
Open Standard? (Score:2, Insightful)
But see, that's just it... They aren't creating an open standard. They are acting like they are creating an open standard, but since it requires several proprietary pieces to work, it is really proprietary. The result is a harder time explaining to non-technical folks the negatives of locking up your content in M$'s proprietary formats and more wasted time for OO.o developers who have to reverse engineer the proprietary elements in OOXML. OOXML is proprietary, plain and simple.
They should be rejected and
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What format does Apple's Pages/Keynote save to?
A horrible format, which is basically the model object exported using serialiseWithCoder:. It's a good idea to use this kind of thing for persistence, since it is guaranteed to store 100% of the document's data, but it is not a good interchange or archival format.
Is it an open standard?
No, although for interchange both export PDF.
Would Apple apologists say that it isn't open because it allows them to innovate more freely?
No, it's not an open standard because Apple is not aiming iWork at people who have strict interchange and editable-archiving requirements. I would not recommend Pages for a lot of corporate environ
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What format does Apple's Pages/Keynote save to?
A container format that has copies of images and the actual document in an XML format inside.
Is it an open standard?
No, it isn't. Most importantly: Apple doesn't try to fasttrack it through the ISO to make it one. More importantly, it im- and exports quite a lot of other, competitive formats. Even more importantly: It is horrible XML but it doesn't have "MakeSpacingLikeThisOtherProgram(butI'mnotsayingho wthatdoesit)" tags.
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Seriously? That would be sweet! Because all we've had so far is this non-specified confusingly named OOXML junk that isn't a standard and isn't open. It'd be great if they abandon that for the one you seem to know about.
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Fixed that for you. Slimes don't get burnt twice.
Wait and see (Score:5, Interesting)
In related News: Germany will vote YES (Score:5, Informative)
Re:In related News: Germany will vote YES (Score:4, Insightful)
This is the sort of thing Lessig was complaining about. Voting against OOXML is such a no-brainer. Heck, not even wasting time with a vote on OOXML is perfectly justifiable. But somehow, the West's political systems can't get there. Really the only questions are how was the German vote subverted? Corruption and bribery? Trickery and gaming? And what can be done about it? Can anyone persuade MS that this sort of behavior is not in anyone's interest, not even MS's own? India and Brazil voting against OOXML is no accident-- those 2 countries RMS's favorites for their enlightened stances.
The vote may be irrelevant anyway. Lot of people are going with ODF and not OOXML, no matter what these representatives decide. Even if some give OOXML a try, it seems likely to be so bad they'll abandon it.
Re:In related News: Germany will vote YES (Score:4, Interesting)
Basically, Microsoft directed a global filibuster campaign in order to force MS's OOXML specifications down ISO's throat. What happened in Germany was largely the same thing that happened in other countries like Portugal, Italy and IIRC Spain.
As I'm portuguese, I've followed the portuguese case a bit closer. In that case, the modus operandi was basically to force the participation of entities as MS business partners in order to stuff the ballot, with the shockingly weird twist of barring the participation of entities like IBM and Sun due to some petty arbitrary justifications (not having enough chairs in a room, mind you). So, to sum things up, MS highjacked the process, successfully barred other entities from participating and, ignoring all technical problems and inconsistencies, proceeded to vote in favour of MS's OOXML for, IIRC, a margin of 12-6 (prior to MS the vote standed at 1-6).
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In Sweden, membership in the standards organization has a very low annual few. However, just that particular committee dealing with MOOX, it cost several months take-home pay. Very few small businesses (the ones who will be hurt worst by MOOX) can shell out that kind of money, just to burn time in meetings.
The spec for MOOX is so bad it shouldn't have even gotten this far. When this is all over, Ecma's role in development of global standards will probably have to be re-evaluated.
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Germanies democracy has been completely undermined by the major parties at this point, and they will do anything for power and money - as an example, they are trying to raise the state support for the parties (i.e. mostly themselves) by 15% and call that "to corr
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as an example, they are trying to raise the state support for the parties (i.e. mostly themselves) by 15% and call that "to correct inflation".
This is AFAIK not true. They want to raise the state support because of all their lost paying members
Of course that's the real reason. I should've been clearer: The proclaimed reason is inflation correction. Everything I've read on the subject so far made it obvious that that's a scam and a lie. I don't follow the evening news or the newspapers very much, so what I've read is not a representative sample, but anyone who cares to check can get that information and lots more from readily available publications.
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Brazilian says no too! (Score:5, Interesting)
Same in Brazil:
Brazil says no [alkalay.net]
And OpenDocument is now a national standard!
How many no votes are needed? How many cast? (Score:2)
And didn't Poland also vote no?
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Meat is murder. (Score:4, Funny)
Translation: "Vote 'yes' or the cow gets it."
I'd be willing to wager, knowing Microsoft's history, that political machinations will have more to do with India's final vote than technical issue resolution.
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minor gripe (Score:5, Informative)
Re:minor gripe (Score:5, Funny)
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Office Obscene XML (Score:2)
1) It breaks the attempted trademark violation against Open Office, and
2) Their proprietary binary blobs really are an obscenity in the context of XML.
score 1 for professionalism, correctness, caring (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the Right Thing to have happened. MS OOXML is not a standard:
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See also: Pot / Kettle / Hue-based accusations.
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Re:score 1 for professionalism, correctness, carin (Score:5, Insightful)
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For your next trick, I assume you'll prove black is white and promptly be killed at the next zebra crossing.
Yes, I know that's a quote.
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Did you mean: Lindows?
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Let's at least get the name right (Score:1, Redundant)
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We should really call it Obnoxiously Offensive XML, to cut down on confusion.
Oh goodie, MS has to patch bugs on a deadline (Score:4, Informative)
Well, that won't be problem. Everyone knows that when the shit has hit the fan and the crunch is on, the MS coders get their act together and just stamp out all the errors and publish a completly fixed solution.
Any of you buying this? Anyone? I don't think even a slashdot editor would fall for that line.
MS has worked on OOXML for a long time, and it still is a mess. Remind you of anything? Like say, everything else ever released by MS?
Maybe MS hopes that the ISO vote will be postponed until MS can release OOXML SP1. After all, that has always worked before. People delayed buying OS/2 because MS promised to release a new windows that would fix everything. People waited with finding alternatives to every single windows release with promise of better things to come.
You will see if MS gets their way if news emerges of the vote being delayed. If that happens, then MS has it in the bag. Then it no longer matters if they ever fix it, if you delayed to wait for a product, you gotta buy that product or admit you were wrong in waiting.
Re:Oh goodie, MS has to patch bugs on a deadline (Score:5, Informative)
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The well known tactic by Microsoft to get people to move off of Microsoft Office 1895 and finally upgrade.
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My Microsoft Natural keyboard has worked great for the past 8 years, and my Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical for the past 4. They are both well designed, easy to use, are reliable.
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As I also type this on my MS keyboard and mouse... Microsoft has made some good hardware in the past, maybe they should stick to that rather than pretending to do software >:)
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123 countries vote for a standard (Score:3, Interesting)
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http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/stdsdevelopment/tc/tclis
There are 32 participating countries, and 15 observers, a little short of the 123 claimed.
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According to the comments placed next to the vote. It looks like majority has voted "no", and yet the majority has actually voted for "yes". Do those people actually know what yes and no votes mean?
Re:123 countries vote for a standard (Score:5, Informative)
Some of those countries "participating" are observers.
This is the best explanation of the voting process I have seen.w ound.html [robweir.com]
http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/02/merely-flesh-
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Get your own ISO standard! Easy as 1, 2, 3!
Details on Indian campaign (Score:5, Informative)
ODFAlliance India Mirror [odfalliance.in] on Wordprocessing-ML subcommittee discussions
Issue List [odfalliance.in] submitted to the Technical Committee by the WordProcessing ML Sub Committee
Why ECMA OOXML is not a Free Document standard [odfalliance.in] :Paper By Dr. Nagarjuna
My Earlier Post : Defeat M$ efforts to push Ecma OOXML in Bureau of Indian Standards (BIS) [movingrepublic.org] Economic Times Report says
Shame on You InfosysKudos !!! (Score:5, Interesting)
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How long will they remain conscious once Microsoft get to work on them?
India loves MSFT. It is just a ploy (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry to be so cynical.
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But what to expect from a third world country. Their priority does not lie with the technical merits of document files (they will still take printouts and put them in big files - this will not be undone because it creates employment) and one cannot blame them for it.
Technical issues (Score:4, Funny)
On the other hand, anyone voting for an international standard who doesn't consider that to be a serious problem (as there can be only one proper implementation) is either incompetant or in someone's pocket. I don't really know whichis worse.
Is ODF really much better? (Score:2, Interesting)
I bet ODF has plenty of backwards compatibility issues too.
Re:Is ODF really much better? (Score:5, Informative)
There's no comparison, ODF is a complete description of a document, OOXML has things like "use word 95 rules" or "important undocumented binary blob here". OOXML is a Trojan horse.
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OOXML contains 700 pages to document that, ODF, zero.
Miguel.
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It will be in ODF 1.2. What version of OOXML will address its critics' points?
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So when do you think Microsoft, sorry Ecma, will correct the accessibility problems? You see, ODF1.0 is the ISO standard, but everybody agrees ODF1.1 is the specification to use. It corrects a few accessibility problems, unlike Microsoft [utoronto.ca].
Or perhaps you can show me a link to a open process by Microsoft which tackles that (and the zillion other problems shown e.g. in grokdoc).
Because you do know the link to the open process tackling the formula "problem".
Aren't the open processes marvellous?
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In OOXML the errors and the explanation why they are real problems, would probably go well over it's 700 pages dedicated to formulas.
Don't tell me you know what day of the week is 1/1/1900 according to OOXML?
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Is ODF really much better as a "standard" on which to build a world or are we really just sticking it to Microsoft here?
OK, this ventures into troll territory, but I really mean it. ODF:OOXML::evolution:creationism. ODF and evolution are both working standards that can be argued and refined. OOXML and creationism are both nebulous descriptions of how things might be that leave out all the information necessary to properly discuss them.
If you believe that evolution is a theory while creationism is a conjecture, then you must also believe that ODF is a standard while OOXML is an internal code document for approximately
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No, I'm just ignorant.
I've just been googling a bit to educate myself.
First off, ODF seems to have nothing to do with Open Office - I thought it did. A format which isn't based on some software is good.
Second, yes, OOXML really does look like the behemoth people are claiming. From the bits I've read there seems to be no way a normal person could ever implement it. It'd take hundreds of years.
This document is a good one: Objections to OOXML [forums.scc.ca]
Microsoft seems to have shot
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Oh, I didn't mean you! I meant what I was getting ready to say. A big "I agree" to the rest of your comment.
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Yes, ODF has problems. However, it's future are very clear that problems will be fixed and format will be naturally improved, with lot of input from MANY vendors which use it every day. And even those problems are quite nothing as OOXML ones which Microsoft simply refuses to fix.
Let's be honest, Microsoft still thinks that it has *it* - t.i. that it has charm and cunningness to fool everyone on any subject
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M$ won't fix the technical issues (Score:2)
The issues are mainly parts of the spec that are not properly defined anywhere. If M$ were to fix the issues then others would be able to implement (read/write) the file format. If others can implement the file format then M$ looses it's main strangle hold on word processors. So it makes no sense at all for M$ to spill the beans and allow other to compete on a level playing field.
Let's say that M$ does properly specify the format, what else can i
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I do not think the "UseWord95Spacing" is as big a problem as it has been made to look. Much worse are other aspects, like problems with accessibility http://atrc.utoronto.ca/index.php?option=com_conte nt§ionid=14&task=view&hidemainmenu=1&id=371 [utoronto.ca] and problems with robustness http://www.arstdesign.com/articles/DefectiveByDesi gn.htm [arstdesign.com].
The blog to follow is Rob Weir's [robweir.com].
You're all missing the point... (Score:1)
This is not about Microsoft's monopolistic games nor is it about ODF vs OOXML. If Microsoft used open document formats it would not be very long before Microsoft was forced to reduce the price of Microsoft Office. Come on people, Microsoft Office is a decent program but it not worth the $380-680 that Microsoft charges for it. For Microsoft, ODF vs OOXML is about money and nothing else.
Microsoft Office generates more than 6 billion dollars a year in revenues and Microsoft will do absolutely anything to prote
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not to mention regardless of what americans think they don't live in a bubble and what happens in other countries, even outside of terrorism, has ramifications inside the country.
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