Two US States Restrict Used CD Sales

DrBenway sends us to Ars Technica for a report that Florida and Utah have placed draconian restrictions on the sale of used music CDs; Wisconsin and Rhode Island may soon follow suit. In Florida, stores have to hold on to CDs for 30 days before they can sell them — for store credit only, not cash. Quoting: "No, you won't spend any time in jail, but you'll certainly feel like a criminal once the local record shop makes copies of all of your identifying information and even collects your fingerprints. Such is the state of affairs in Florida, which now has the dubious distinction of being so anal about the sale of used music CDs that record shops there are starting to get out of the business of dealing with used content because they don't want to pay a $10,000 bond for the 'right' to treat their customers like criminals."

Holy SHIT that sucks.

Makes me glad I live in New York, where there are used CD stores everywhere and the stoned counterperson barely notices you.

Hey! Is this first post? I think it is! Umm... W00t?

this does NOT suck

This does NOT suck.

In fact, this could be exactly what we need. This is clearly such a ludicrous measure that if it goes into law everywhere, the apathy-riddled consumer might actually sit up and notice. When average Jimbo down the street gets hit with fees and taxes and fingerprints and anal probes while trying to sell his old stash of CDs, there should at least be a little more awareness about what the RIAA f**kheads are trying to do. Hopefully, that will lead to consumer action and eventually enough agitation to overturn this measure and also place some iron clamps on what the RIAA can and cannot do.

In other words, the more ludicrous the little battles are, the better chance we have of winning the war. Now the lawyers here can strike me down.

Re:this does NOT suck

Really. Who the hell signed the deal on this???
Anti consumer, anti business. Pro RIAA.
I guess Craigslist will get a surge for CD sellers/buyers in those states for the time being.
Once they criminialze your average Joe from selling used CDs person-to-person like it's a controlled substance, the pitchforks and torches will come out.

No torches, same voting.

When the weapons of mass destruction thing turned out to be not true, I expected the American people to rise up. Ha! They didn't.

Then, when the Abu Ghraib torture thing surfaced and it was revealed that our government participated in rendition, a practice where we kidnap people and turn them over to regimes who specialize in torture, I was sure then the American people would be heard from. We stood mute.

Then came the news that we jailed thousands of so-called terrorists suspects, locked them up without the right to a trial or even the right to confront their accusers. Certainly, we would never stand for that. We did.

And now, it's been discovered the executive branch has been conducting massive, illegal, domestic surveillance on its own citizens. You and me. And I at least consoled myself that finally, finally the American people will have had enough. Evidentially, we haven't.

In fact, if the people of this country have spoken, the message is we're okay with it all. Torture, warrantless search and seizure, illegal wiretappings, prison without a fair trial - or any trial, war on false pretenses. We, as a citizenry, are apparently not offended.

Boston Legal, "Stick It [boston-legal.org]" (season 2, episode 19), written by David E. Kelley & Janet Leahy.

Re:Well

Eh. CDs and DVDs are so light and cash-dense that they were commonly ripped off and pawned.

Basically, you run into the average house, what's the most valuable stuff you can steal in a few seconds? If you think "The TV!" ... yeah, what pawnshop is going to take a TV missing the remote and half the cables? Obviously hot. On the other hand, right next to it is a nice big media rack with tens (hundreds?) of light, portable $20 bills.

If they've got time, they'll clean you out entirely, but for quick petty theft, they go for the easy score. And, given college students pawning their CDs all the time anyway, it's not too unusal to see it happen.

So, MAFIAA influence and some crime numbers made this happen. I think it's stupid, but used-CD stores were becoming fences, and that's not good for anyone.

Re:this does NOT suck

While I fully admire your optimism, I think that, sadly, it will change nothing. Jimbo invented apathy.

Re:Holy SHIT that sucks.

There's definitely a market for used MP3s, and the price is right.

Re:Holy SHIT that sucks.

The levy on iPods was rescinded. And it was after CD's.....

But no matter. Many years ago my album and cassette collection was stolen. I tracked down the pawn shop they were sold to. Pawn Shops were I lived were required to hold items for 30 days before selling them - and to take ID. This led to the person who stole them being convicted.

I never got my albums or cassettes back though. The pawn shop claimed that I had no evidence that the ones they bought were mine and I, of course, not having individually labeled each item had no proof they were.

Re:Holy SHIT that sucks.

That doesn't make sense. How could there possibly be enough evidence to convict somebody of stealing them, but not any evidence that they were yours?

Re:Holy SHIT that sucks.

They admitted guilt after being confronted by the police. But they didn't have a list of what they stole from me. I didn't have a list of what I owned either. I knew what I owned and when looking at the list of items they sold could see it was mine. That being said, according to the Pawn Shop - I could have looked at a list and just claimed it all as mine.

I had no proof that what they sold was all "my collection" and not someone elses. I suppose if I would have hired a lawyer I may have had them returned. In the criminal case the Crown (Canada's DA) paid for all that.

Re:tax on blank cds

Yes, you can still get DVDs for authoring which are 3.95GB or 4.7GB but embody the format used in pressed masters (allowing CSS) instead of that DVD-R stuff. There's a fair explanation about it here. [taperesources.com]

This is why fark has a Florida tag

So much for buying used CDs from some dude at a garage sale. Is the MAFIAA going to go after garage sales, too? Where does the witch hunt end?

Re:This is why fark has a Florida tag

Thank god for these laws. I was out of control!

Inaccurate.

They want your money any way they can get it. Inaccurate. They want your money every way they can get it.

Re:Still inaccurate

"They want your money"

Sounds better with no qualifiers.

wow

I moved to Florida roughly 10 months ago. This is the first I have ever heard of this. I've been googling around trying to find a reference to this in any type of local news media and I can't. Nothing so far. Maybe I'm missing it, but it seems like something of this magnitude would garner some attention.

Re:wow

You would think this would get some attention, but the whole reason the music industry gets away with these ridiculous laws is because nobody is paying attention. Besides, why would we trust the media to tell us about something like this? They probably have the same owners as the record companies.

Re:wow

As someone who worked in Florida local media (WTSP-TV in St. Pete), I can tell you that Florida media completely ignores stories of magnitude and focuses on the retarded, weird shit. Supposedly this didn't happen much before the 2000 election when Florida became such a laughing stock.

Want to know how shit like this is passed? Read this [tampabays10.com]. I realize it is written horribly, but the video speaks for itself: the Florida legislature votes largely by proxy. Most legislators do not attend the full sessions, when they attend at all.

What do you expect from a state that fields Rhonda Storms [google.com]? (For a kick, read the first result description.)

Re:wow

And has always concentrated on stories where they get the facts wrong. Like watching 6 in Orlando while they announced the shuttle as having launched the previous Friday. Too bad it went up on Thursday.... And when they get it right, you want them arrested. Again 6 in Orlando, with the reporters standing outside a house with SWAT before SWAT is to go in, and ANNOUNCES the address.

But, still better than 6 in Schnectady / Albany, whom I had to call to inform that "The reports of my death were greatly exagerated".

I would love to see who started this bill. We have Nelson as a senator, who is the deepest in the pocket of the RIAA of ANY Senator. And to those who care, he is a Democrat.

Re:wow

We have Nelson as a senator

Ha Ha!

hmph... hello FTC?

The article says "The Federal Trade Commission has scrutinized the music industry for putting unfair pressures on retailers who sell used CDs"... This seems to me to be similar unfair pressure, but this time it's coming from state governments. Is this sort of law even enforceable?

Just dump 'em on ebay

until the fascists outlaw that. I swear, I have long been a proponent of paying for my music. There are several out of print titles I've paid top dollar for on ebay and in the used section of the local record store. But if this shit becomes the norm, I'll start downloading everything for free, lawsuits be damned. Fuck these sons-of-bitches.

rubbish

"The legislation is supposed to stop the sale of counterfeit and/or stolen music CDs"

This is clearly irrelevant, since they should then apply this to the sale of _any_ second-hand goods - any of which _might_ be stolen or counterfeit.
Even if they did that, what is the point of "in-store credit"? Will they then stipulate that said credit can _only_ be used for the purchase of _new_ media, rather than other second-hand media?

Gosh, I'm glad I only live in a US colony (Australia) instead of mainland US! It seems the RIAA-pists won't be happy until there's an income tax component for "expected music/media consumption."

Re:rubbish

Shut up. You'll give them ideas.

Re:rubbish

Weird. I had my house broken into abbout a dozen years ago. Among other things, they stole a portable CD player, but actually removed the CD from it and left it where the player had been. I guess they didn't like Bruce Hornsby...

Re:rubbish

Oh shit, that was YOUR player? Sorry dude, Hornsby just don't do it for me... :)

Garth Brooks won???

Garth Brooks was pushing royalties for used CD sales way back when I had a shop that sold used CDs. This is right before he quit doing shit, so I guess he was just wanting some extra royalties on his old stuff. I thought it was a money grab then, and it is now.

Since I have always only bought used CDs, I guess now I will need to start downloading and burning all my music instead. No way I'm paying $20 for 2 good songs, and I don't want an ipod.

Shameful Reporting

Why does Slashdot only report only bad legislative news? Why don't they report all the good news? It's just like Iraq: the liberal media only focuses on the few (dozen) bombs that go off every day, while ignoring all the good news that is overflowing from there.

Why doesn't Slashdot report all the good news? Like the PATRIOT Act, and the USA Act (I am no lawyer so I haven't read them, but the names really tell me all I need to know). I am sick of people acting as if politicians don't always look after my best interests.

If you commies don't like our system, why don't you all go live in Afghanistan?!

Pawn shops

So, except for the only store credit part, they're making them follow the same laws that pawn shops must follow here in Colorado? That is, valid ID and fingerprints are required as well as a 30-day holding period for all items. Working in a pawn shop, I can point out that CDs, DVDs, and video games (VHS is dead) and other common but low-value items are rarely even investigated by the police. Proving the ownership of such a generic type of item is futile. Un-serialized items in general are, really. Despite the annoyance, I still fully support the restrictions pawn shops are given and we -- the honest brokers -- fully try to insure that stolen items are returned to their rightful owners or are at-least unsellable.

CDs are more dangerous than GUNS???

And yet you can still buy a firearm at a gun show in Florida with no background check, and police must destroy records on gun sales within 48 hours and are prohibited from maintaining gun sale records that could be used for gun tracing and criminal investigations [bradycampaign.org].

What THE HELL is wrong with this country???

Re:CDs are more dangerous than GUNS???

If only there were some way to turn the RIAA and the MPAA against ... the NRA.

Guys, we have our game plan from here on out.

Re:CDs are more dangerous than GUNS???

What's wrong is that groups like Brady are perpetually distributing a variety of lies and half-truths to the public for their own political purposes. Can you purchase a firearm in a gun show without a background check? Yes, you can-but only from a private person. Any dealer still has to run a check. Those who have been to gun shows, and who are familiar with how criminals operate, will tell you that the majority are not going to be relying on gun shows for the weaponry.

As for the second part of that statement, it only shows how much misinformation Brady puts out, and how little understanding there is by most people on how traces are conducted. When a dealer sells a firearm, they are required by law to keep the 4473 form on file for as long as the business remains open. When/if the business shuts down, the 4473s are sent to the ATF. If a gun is recovered from a crime, the serial numbers get sent to the ATF, who then will go through the chain of possession to the last FFL who possessed it (the dealer). That dealer will then give them the 4473, which has contact information on the purchaser (which is verified at time of sale using state-issued current identification). At that point the buyer can be tracked down, and contated to find out the disposition of the firearm. Local police do not need to keep their own sale records because such a system is already in place, and doing its job quite well. Brady would like to have records of every time any firearm is touched by a human being, with DNA records attached, and under realtime surveillance. Or just a total ban.

Other posters are correct: turning to the Brady Campaign for information on firearms is a perfectly analagous to looking to the RIAA for info on piracy.

Re:CDs are more dangerous than GUNS???

Straw man -- the URL is completely irrelevant. Either the laws cited on that page are accurate, or they're not. I'm not quoting a position paper.

hmmm...

In Florida, stores have to hold on to CDs for 30 days before they can sell them ... the local record shop makes copies of all of your identifying information and even collects your fingerprints.

I though these were CDs, not guns!

A reminder

"...Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it..."

Rip 'n Sell

I haven't actually put a commercial CD into a drive in a year or more, and all the ones I still own are long since ripped. I was thinking about selling all my CDs, but then my ripped copies would be illegal, and I'm one of those weirdoes who actually likes to pay fairly for what they have. So what do I do if I don't want the clutter? Throw them all into a landfill?

It seems like the days of the used CD store are almost gone anyway. Despite the DRM politics, it's awfully convenient to buy online. And with CDs so easy to rip and resell, used CD stores are little more than rent-to-steal shops these days.

Re:Rip 'n Sell

So what do I do if I don't want the clutter? Throw them all into a landfill?

You're welcome to store them at my place. Let me know and I'll send you my shipping address. Also if you lose your HD or something you can come by and listen to them any time you like.

Ah wonderful

Now this debate can happen all over again.

For the record, I was buying back CDs at a used record store in Washington State in the early nineties. We required photo ID. We wrote the information on your photo ID in a Big Scary Book. After we bought your CDs, we held on to them for 30 days. Then, after 30 days, we typically sold them. And it was no big deal. Didn't hurt business, didn't scare customers. Didn't have a damn thing to do with filesharing (I don't believe the original Napster existed yet). We caught a decent number of CD thieves by matching sales of odd CDs to lists of stolen CDs. It worked to everyone's benefit except maybe the thieves.

By the way, it's Really Freaking Obvious when someone's selling stolen goods. Seriously. We're checking the lists of stolen CDs before they even walk out the door. Thieves are idiots, and not subtle idiots either.

These laws are similar. They include a fingerprint provision presumably to combat fake ID's. I think that bit is unneccessary and odious (because, in my experience, we were able to catch all of our fake-ID-using thieves because they kept coming back). It requires a business permit. Sigh, whatever. It requires trading for store credit rather than cash. That's stupid--people selling their old CDs hardly ever want store credit, even if the value of that store credit is more than the cash. Reason? People sell their old CDs with "I'll finally dump these old CDs" on their mind. Buying new CDs is typically not what they want to do. We offered trade or cash to people, and most chose cash.

So it's basically a dumber version of a law that has existed for over a decade in my state. Big freakin' deal.

So two things are going on here:

The stated issue behind the restrictions on reselling CDs seems to be that they are a likely good to be stolen and resold. I suppose that this does make sense, and that CDs should have the same restrictions put on them that any other good sold in a pawnshop should.

But there seems to be hints that this is just a way for the recording industry to stop the reselling of CDs.

But there would have to be a closer studying of the legislation and the people backing it to find out which one is the real reason this is being pushed.

On the face of it, though, I find it a little unlikely that this is an anti-theft measure. Especially the part about "only to be used for store credit". It seems unfair to target CDs like this, when there are plenty of other things: cars, guns, jewelry, musical instruments, home electronics, sporting equipment, that are also likely targets of theft (I would think all of those named would be better targets for theft than CDs), but (AFAIK), there isn't any specific laws that say you can't sell your skis or guitar for cash.

I wonder if...

this move is in part related to drug use.

I worked in retail management with a focus on loss prevention. The connection between hard-core drug addicts and reselling stolen multimedia was insane.

90% of the chronic offenders we prosecuted cited drug money as their motivation and the resellers in New England, my market, were often little more than enablers. One employee of a major reseller in the area told me 'off the record' that a guy we had busted recently came in several times a day for several MONTHS with DVD box-sets still shrink wrapped and stickered from one of our stores. When I asked why they didn't call us he just shrugged.

These new regulations are short-sighted and egregious, but it is possible the RIAA is not solely to blame. The war on drugs is still going on and from what I saw, shoplifting multimedia is a habit of choice for drug offenders.

Some numbers:
It was not unusual to see multimedia loss numbers from a single location at my former company top $100k for a single year. New box set titles @ the time I was doing this resold between 40-60 cents on the dollar within the first two weeks of release. So a single box-store multimedia outlet could have been subsidizing local criminals with an average of +/- $50k/year.

I don't like the new laws, but the RIAA is most likely not solely to blame.

And what about the CD show LOOPHOLE!?!?!?!

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, there is a loophole! Unfortunately, the law applies to retailers only! People can go to a CD swap meet or a flea-market and freely buy and sell CDs directly with other people; a process known as "person to person" in the parlance of the common folk; all (and I can't state this emphatically enough) without the benefit of oversight by the Recording and Music Industry, and the benevolent guidance of our friends therein! Intolerable! CD shows are wild-west open-air bizarres where rogue CD and DVD owners snicker at the laws and exchange used entertainment media as if they owned it! This outrageous behavior must be brought under control!

I did, ladies and gentlemen, mention the "person to person" aspect. May I remind my esteemed colleagues about the known threat to our families, our schools, our re-election financing, and our very way of life by the criminals, perverts, and terrorists that use these so-called "P2P" computer programs to exchange copyrighted material, 93% of which is pornography, over the computerized internet tube. Hooligans, drug-users one and all, and of the same ilk as these CD swappers!

I say it's high time we closed this loophole, and bring peace, justice, and accountability to these havens of immorality. The lash of reason must be brought to bear, and the firm hand of democracy must crush this evil trend before it destroys all that we have labored so hard to impose.

Could somebody please enlighten me?

I haven't bought a CD in four years, and I'm older than God. If I'm not buying them, I can't imagine who is. Actually the last one that came into the house was a DVD from my son, given as a birthday gift in November '05, and I wanted every single track that was on it plus the extras. It was a special exception. The only CD's I can envision buying now would be classical or rare, old jazz--but with the arrival on the scene of new turntables, the vinyl may yet emerge from the cellar.

My first question, anyway, is this: What is the difference between secondhand CD's and secondhand books? Should we be looking forward to having our reading controlled in the same way they want to control our music selections? Is it time to spend a paycheck at Thriftbooks just in case?

My second question is more technical: What does one need to know to intelligently purchase an "analog" tunes system these days? (I assume that would be turntable and some associated accoutrements. In the dark ages it would've involved pre-amps, amplifiers, speakers, etc.) If you have one, are there suggestions or references for ripping tracks off that treasured old vinyl to be played on something more portable like an ipod?

Taking the long view, this is just a symptom of how desperate the music mafia has become. It's another nail in their coffin. I'm not surprised that Utah is one of the states. You can apparently gull their legislature into enacting just about anything by playing on their paranoia.

 

Re:Could somebody please enlighten me?

I haven't bought a CD in four years, and I'm older than God. If I'm not buying them, I can't imagine who is.

When I pay for music, I buy the CD. I just can't envisage paying money for an ephemeral lossy digital file (hard drives crash more often than houses burn down). Now, I haven't actually listened to a CD in a couple of years, but at least for now, that's the way to buy.

And when I like something that's released by a RIAA member (plug: RIAA Radar [riaaradar.com]), I buy the CD used; so this sucks.

Re:This law would have mattered...

I don't know where you get your MP3s, but all of the ones I download for free are brand new copies.

Stealing? Maybe. But from whom?

Courtney Love has a nice article [salon.com] on her take on piracy etc.
Her view on the issue is that the music industry is a huge, profiteering middleman and artists are swindled by them. She's of the opinion that for an artist, more exposure, however it comes, is a good thing and will lead to people buying more stuff.
The music industry is whining just because they're being cut out from a direct experience between an artist and the listener.

Re:Buying Used records is STEALING

I heard a rumor that there is actually a place where you can BORROW CD's without PAYING for them and it is usually supported by taxpayer dollars and local cities and states! I also hear that you can borrow 'books' and read them and return them without paying a single royalty to the author.

WHEN will the agencies crack down on this atrocity! //sigh//

Re:What a bunch of fucking idiots.

Leave it to Republican run hellholes to think up this kind of crap. This is what you get when you have vending machines legislatures that sell laws for cash. God save us from these assholes eventually.

I AGREE COMPLETELY!!!

First those Republicans required those Parental Advisory [wikipedia.org] stickers on CDs, then that Republican President signed the DMCA [wikipedia.org] in law, now this. If those Republicans keep this up I'm moving to France!

Re:What a bunch of fucking idiots.

O <---- Joke

  O
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Re:Perhaps you can stop the crooks from stealing

All kinds of things get fenced. By the same logic, we should ban selling any used goods. That used VCR you just bought, why that could be the proceeds of a crime.

Re:Who Cares

Just listen to local LIVE bands. If what's on the radio & CD's sucks, do something else entirely! Do your own thing! THINK for yourself!

What exactly are you getting at here? A used record is just a used record. You can buy a Britney Spears CD today and sell it tomorrow as used. It's not your right to be entertained. If you don't enjoy something anymore, don't use or pay for it anymore! It doesn't give you a right to steal it!

But we are talking about buying real CDs, are we not? With your reasoning, would it also be illegal to give away CDs that you have already purchased? You don't have to be entertained constantly!!! Support your local artists directly!

Maybe your friends need it. I have no friend who needs 24/7 entertainment. Support my local artists? I listen mostly to radio music and don't give a shit about local artists. Why should I support them just because they create music? In that case, I want them to support me because I am a graphical artists. I demand that they buy my paintings.

The issue is not that we don't want artists to get paid. Quite frankly, there is a lot of great music that is not produced by "local bands" and I like diversity. I don't mind paying for it, but I refuse to sign a contract on what I may and may not do once I purchase a CD. If I have bought it, I want to be able to sell it to anyone I want without having anyone watching my back.