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Melting Coins Now Illegal In the U.S.
Posted by
kdawson
on Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:59 PM
from the facing-meltdown dept.
from the facing-meltdown dept.
A number of readers have noted the action by the U.S. Mint to outlaw the melting down or bulk export of coins. This has come about because the value of the precious metals contained in coins now exceeds their face value.
The Mint would rather not have to replace pennies (at a cost of 1.73 cents per) or nickels (at 8.74 cents). The expectation is that Congress will mandate new compositions for some U.S. coins in 2007.
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US Pennies To Be Worth Five Cents? 729 comments
Z-MaxX writes to point out Reuters coverage following up on last month's news that the US Mint has made it illegal to melt or export US coins in bulk, since the value of their constituent metals — in the case of pennies and nickels — now exceeds their face value. The new story quotes Francois Velde, senior economist at the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, who thinks the new rules will not be enough — he believes that determined speculators are already piling up pennies. Velde suggests "rebasing" the penny to be worth five cents. Quoting Velde: "These factors suggest that, sooner or later, the penny will join the farthing (one-quarter of a penny) and the hapenny (one-half of a penny) in coin museums."
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If this keeps up... (Score:5, Funny)
If this keeps up, .002 cents really will [slashdot.org] = $.002
(Sorry, but it had to be said...)
Re:If this keeps up... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:If this keeps up... (Score:5, Funny)
.05 cents? Let us know when you've reached 20 and maybe somebody will send you a penny for your thoughts. :-D
Re:If this keeps up... (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, it should be a punishable crime... and some public workers should pay for it.
How is it possible to have things so upwards?
It is *not* "costing the government money"; it is costing the *taxpayers'* money. It is the government the one that is using something to guarantee something of less value. It is the government's fault and it is the government the one that should pay for such a deep arrogance about thrashing away tax-payers' money.
Well, the government declares owing me a cent by means of an item called "a cent". OK, that's the government side of the deal; it had all the powers to choose a piece of paper or a Ferrari to stablish its debt against me. But then, someone else offers me 1.73 cents for such a token. Why shouldn't I accept it? Despite what the government says, the *thruth* is that I'm liberating the government of a "contract" with me. In what crazy world is the debtor able to punish the one that wanted to condom the debt?
Re:If this keeps up... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Does anyone else here see the bigger problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Does anyone else here see the bigger problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sorry and this isn't personal but I'm amazed at how little financial acumen we collectively have. This is the financial equivalent of being surprised that 40% of all sick days are taken on Monday and Friday.
The dollar being worth less and things costing more are exactly the same phenomenon. The value of the metals did not inherently increase. Were this lmited to a specific metal or commodity I would believe it, but it is very broad based and therefore can be traced to a monetary phenomenon (record low interest rates, loose lending practices, and increased consumer/government debt).
Re:Does anyone else here see the bigger problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
The dollar being worth less and things costing more are exactly the same phenomenon. The value of the metals did not inherently increase.
The value of metals DID increase relative to other commodities. So the parent post is right to say that it is a combination of a general decline in the value of the Dollar and an increase in the price of Zinc and Copper.
Re:If this keeps up... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:If this keeps up... (Score:5, Informative)
It's only illegal if you intend to use/distribute them as 'money'. Novelty items are OK.
(Text as of 2/19/02) 18 U.S.C. 331:
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States;
Re:If this keeps up... (Score:4, Insightful)
Pressed Penny FAQ [pressedpenny.com]
It takes some doing, but it's possible to have fraudulent intent to mutilate. For instance, making a 4-legged buffalo nickel into a 3-legged (rare) variety is fraudulent. Dropping pennies in a machine at Disneyland for souvenirs is perfectly okay.
Re:If this keeps up... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:If this keeps up... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:If this keeps up... (Score:4, Interesting)
To put it another way: I call bullshit.
Re:If this keeps up... (Score:5, Informative)
You really need to get out more. Gasoline, cheap electronics parts like resistors, mutual fund values... lots of stuff is accounted for at greater than 2 decimal point accuracy.
Re:If this keeps up... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:If this keeps up... (Score:4, Insightful)
The only change would be cash transactions, which would be rounded (probably up) to the nearest nickel.
When the half-cent was abolished in 1857 it was worth more than eight cents in today's currency. It's time for the penny to go, along with the paper dollar. In another 20 years or so, they may as well get rid of the nickel too.
Re:If this keeps up... (Score:5, Informative)
You just round to the nearest 5 cents. If something costs $13.23 then you end up paying $13.25 if you pay cash, if it costs $13.27 then you also pay $13.25 if you pay cash. When paying by EFTPOS (think swiping your debit card in the US) or credit card or cheque (think check it the US
It works perfectly well, sure you can get 2c worth of free petrol (gas...) by putting $40.02 in the tank, but no one does because it's 2c... Sure you could try buying 2c (or 7c) worth of petrol over and over again, but no one does that either because it's retarded.
Just because you remove something from cash transactions doesn't mean you change the "base" of your currency - to claim that is just being moronic. Amazingly Australia didn't collapse, the banks didn't have a field day with "false" interest rates, in fact the only thing that changed is you don't end up carrying 10kg of coins at the end of the day...
Inflation means that a penny now is a *much* *much* finer resolution on prices. People managed perfectly well 50 years ago with a much coarser price scheme... Seriously who gives a stuff if something costs $12.32 or $12.33 - can you even tell the difference at the end of week?
Re:If this keeps up... (Score:5, Informative)
You conveniantly ignore all the occassions you buy a $5.27 lunch and save 2c. Or you're too stupid to read a simple post. Or maybe to stupid to understand what rounding means.
It averages out - sometimes you pay a cent or two above the total price. Sometimes you pay a cent or two below the total price. If you really care about 2c you can always arrange to be paying less, you just have to add/remove items with non-multiples of 5c prices until your total ends in 1c, 2c, 6c, or 7c.
Of course no one does because, they know it evens out in the long term (heck even in the short term).
You can't seriously be that dumb, there are only 5 possible results for an individual transaction.
1. the price paid is exactly the total price
2. the store gets an extra 1c
3. the store gets an extra 2c
4. the customer gets an extra 1c
5. the customer gets an extra 2c
There is no 3 and 4 cent option, as is pretty obvious if you think for about a quarter of second instead of just making shit up.
And if you are retarded enough to care, then just always arrange to but things which total $X.02. Congratulations, you save 2c on every transaction you make. Of course the time required to make sure the transaction ends in 2, and the extra items you have to buy to do so will probably make it not worth while - but feel free to stick it to the man!
For everyone else it averages out.
Paper? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Paper? (Score:4, Informative)
There's a great google answer here:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=7
"You are correct, that the only criminal statute regulating the destruction or defacement of U.S. currency requires fraudulent intent."
There are a few famous classroom science experiments that involve the destruction of pennies. Here's hoping that's still legal.
Re:Paper? (Score:4, Informative)
"You are correct, that the only criminal statute regulating the destruction or defacement of U.S. currency requires fraudulent intent." only applies to *coins*
Further down, there's a statute related to bills, which our researcher
"Note that this is also an intent-based crime. An element of the offense is "...intent to render such [currency] unfit to be reissued.""
So lighting your cigar with a bill might just be illegal after all. However, under these laws, dissolving a penny in acid isn't.
There's a bit more here:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=4
"precious metals" in pennies? (Score:5, Informative)
they make them out of an electroplated nickel alloy now..
Dare i say it shouldn't just be oil we should be concerned about running out?
JUNK METAL coins are now worth more than their face value... I think this is a sign that asteroid mining could be feasible (the average nickel iron monster is worth several trillian.. not counting any incidental precious metals)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
they make them out of an electroplated nickel alloy now..
No to both of those, as it says in the article. They stopped making pennies out of copper in 1981 an
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
It could be worth significantly more than that if you threaten to smash it into somew
Re:"precious metals" in pennies? (Score:5, Informative)
They stopped making em out of copper before the 50's (I forget exactly when its finals week XD)
I'll give you some slack for finals week, but you are off by three decades. Pennies were made of 95% copper until the mid 80's. Dimes, quarters, half-dollars and full-sized full dollars (i.e. not sacagawea-sized) were made of silver until 1963.
(Yes, I am a coin collector)
they make them out of an electroplated nickel alloy now..
Zinc, actually, not nickel.
Dare i say it shouldn't just be oil we should be concerned about running out?
Well, not exactly a misplaced point, but we can recycle metals, hence the very problem the article was about. We can't recycle oil once it's been burnt.
Re:"precious metals" in pennies? (Score:5, Informative)
The previous composition (95% copper/5% zinc) went back to 1962. 1864-1962 it was 95% copper/5% zinc/tin alloy, except in 1943 they were zinc-plated steel.
Re:redundant posting? (Score:5, Funny)
Just get rid of pennies (Score:4, Insightful)
Intrinsic Value (Score:4, Funny)
How much does it take to refine the metal? (Score:5, Interesting)
My second question is how much would it cost to refine these metals to make them worth the most? Copper prices are sky high right now but a lump of melted pennies probably wouldn't be able to be sold as a "copper" since there are a number of other metals involved. Is this something that can really be profitable?
Re:How much does it take to refine the metal? (Score:5, Informative)
As much as I can understand why they do not want people melting down these coins, how much is the metal really worth in it's "raw" form unrefined?
About 1.7 cents for a current penny, about 2.3cents for a pre-1986 penny, about 7.5 cents for a nickel.
get rid of pennies altogether? (Score:5, Insightful)
here is an article i have found to be particularly illuminating.
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a981009a.htm
Re:get rid of pennies altogether? (Score:5, Funny)
Why not get rid of nickles and dimes as well?
And why we're at it, let's get rid of all paper currency, replacing it with coins in the following denominations: $1, $5, $20, $50. Then we can stop printing money to replace all those torn dollar bills.
Think of the affect on crime. While you could carry a couple thousand dollars on your person if you really needed to, the drug kingpin who wants payment of a million in cash is going to need a forklift, not a suitcase. Similar issues of phyiscal inconvenience will deter counterfeiting.
Re:get rid of pennies altogether? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:get rid of pennies altogether? (Score:5, Interesting)
"Juicies" in the Phillipines have perfected a very entertaining way of picking up stacked change from atop a San Miguel bottle. The more skillful can return the stack coin-by-coin.
Shouts to any Nipa Hut or Fire Empire patrons in da house!
Devalue (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Devalue (Score:5, Insightful)
My question (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Possibly do as other countries did... (Score:5, Interesting)
And for folks who'll ask, replacing cash with electronic transactions isn't the answer. I for one like the anonymity of cash and the fact that I'm carrying a physical object of known value that can handle some pretty heavy abuse before becoming worthless.
-b.
How can they do this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Bah, I'm too busy anyways (Score:5, Funny)
Pennies (Score:4, Interesting)
1. Stores like the $X.99 price point, because it subtly makes people think they're paying $X rather than $X+1. $X.95 is also popular, and could work with only nickels.
2. Sales tax is based on percentage, so even if you have a round price like $1.00, you may end up with something like $1.07.
OK, 3 reasons if you're paying for gas with cash. But note that gas stations already advertise prices to the thousandth of a dollar -- as far as I know, the US has never actually minted a mil -- and they already get rounded up to the nearest penny. I'm sure gas stations would be quite happy to round to the nearest nickel instead.
Of course, given how many transactions are electronic these days, withdrawing the penny wouldn't necessarily alter credit or debit transactions.
Do AWAY with pennies and nickles (Score:4, Insightful)
under what authority? (Score:5, Interesting)
Under what authority can the US Mint create new law? The US Mint, the Secret Service and the Treasury are all in the enforcement, not the legislative branch.
Some AC said it was illegal to mutilate or deface paper money. Uh, no, it's not. It's also not illegal to cut up a US coin in some artistic fashion and sell it for a higher amount; this is done all the time. In terms of defacement, you can't stick a picture of Kennedy on a quarter and try to redeem it as a half-dollar, and the same goes for gluing a "20" on the corner of a one-dollar bill. That's simple fraud, in this case called counterfeiting.
Re:under what authority? (Score:5, Informative)
And to blow your mind even further, the judicial branch makes law too! It's called common law. The federal judiciary and 49 of the 50 states operate under common law. If you don't like it, you have to move to Louisiana or France.
Another Solution (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Another Solution (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Plastic?
I mean, it's not like we're running short on oil.