German Minister Seeks Jail Time For FPS Players 383
GamePolitics has the somewhat unbelievable news that German Minister of the Interior Gunther Beckstein is seeking jail time for violent game developers, publishers, and players. MSNBC has further coverage of the issue, which has pro gamers in Germany quite worried. From the article: "The draft law, a reaction to a school shooting that shook German public opinion last month, will come before the upper house of parliament next year. But it is already sending shockwaves through the 2m-strong German online gaming community. 'We have among the most drastic censorship rules for games,' said Frank Sliwka, head of the Deutsche E-Sport Bund, an umbrella federation for German online gaming teams. 'Now we are being labelled as a breeding ground for unstable, dysfunctional and violent youngsters.'"
It's all the games' fault! (Score:5, Funny)
*ducks*
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*ducks*
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Re:It's all the games' fault! (Score:4, Insightful)
Not to mention that he didn't even say anything about the world wars; for all we know he could have been referring to Germanic barbarians fighting with the Roman legions 2000 years ago!
Re:It's all the games' fault! (Score:5, Funny)
The fastest possible meta Godwin would be in a child response to a G0 post. Let's call that an M1 post. You can't pull a meta-Godwin in a G0 post without triggering the self-referential (wank) exception.
Sadly, you post is a respectable but undistinguished M2 (grand child) meta-godwin. But then again this post is an H3 hyper-meta-godwin so I can't say anthing. H2 would the fastest theoretically possible hyper-meta. Of course you can't do an H1 because that triggers the meta-self-referential (wank wank) rule.
Re:It's all the games' fault! (Score:5, Insightful)
~~=====> - Godwin's Law
0 - You
_|_
|
/ \
It's not a rule that can be invoked like "Whoever finishes the TP must install the new roll.", it's a law in the sense of "E=MC^2".
Let me introduce you to Kano's Law [angelfire.com].
LK
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Thank you! Ever since I found the original phrasing [catb.org], I've wondered how it mutated to the point that people say that a post invokes Godwin's law rather than demonstrates it. It's sort of like saying that a falling apple invokes the law of gravity, or that the observer invokes it by describing the falling apple.
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Re:It's all the games' fault! (Score:4, Informative)
You don't seem to have any idea of what Godwin's Law is. It does not prevent further discussion, or stop information from being "free." It is simply a statement of probability. This is what Godwin's Law says:
It says nothing about such comparisons being valid or invalid. It says nothing about discontinuing the discussion, or winning an argument - as so many people mistakenly argue. It just says that lengthy online discussions are more likely to contain comparisons to Nazis than brief discussions.
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"'As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.' There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups..."
Technically Godwin's Law does no such thing, but the codicil of applica
Re:It's all the games' fault! (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:It's all the games' fault! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:It's all the games' fault! (Score:5, Insightful)
They got involved pretty damn quickly, though.
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The solution after WWII was to break Germany into two countries. Which had a lot of history to recommend it -- pretty much every time in history Germany was unified a big war broke out.
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Crap, man, pick up a history book, please.
Germany ended up divided because the western Allies didn't like the Soviet plan for making a unified Germany out of the four occupation zones (which would have been "neutral" at best, or more likely ended up a Commie satellite state, like the GDR), and the Soviets of course didn't like any of the plans the western Allies had (which all involved Germany not becoming a satellite state of the Soviet Union
Re:It's all the games' fault! (Score:5, Funny)
Edmund: Well, in that case, Baldrick, you're quite safe. However, the Teutonic reputation for brutality is well-founded: their operas last three or four days; and they have no word for `fluffy'.
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WOW, more of the same (Score:5, Insightful)
First, Didn't the neo-nazi youths have this title all wrapped up before there were violent games?
Kidding aside, this is just another stupid knee jerk reaction to social problems that nobody wants to take the blame for.
When I was a kid, we played with toy guns, king of the hill, kill-the-guy-with-the-ball, and other VIOLENT games...
It wasn't until they banned 'red rover' that this sort of bad finger pointing started to happen...
FerChrisSakes - lets blame everyone and everything but the parents and families of violent kids...
Sheesh
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When I was a kid we called it "Smear the queer" and it had nothing to do with gay people.
You would think a nation like Germany would have learned the lesson better than any other. Limiting access to media and knowledge in order to 'purify' thoughts never ends well. http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/boo kburn.htm [historyplace.com]
-Rick
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true, and beckstein is an idiot. he's got real paranoia and nobody is taking him really seriously here. er. i hope.
Re:WOW, more of the same (Score:4, Informative)
And yes, Beckstein's a git. It's taking him far too long to realise that he is one of the most unpopular politicians in Bavaria, now that Monica ("my daddy used to OWN this state!") Hohlmeier has been run out of town in disgrace.
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Wow. I don't think I played anything half that violent when I was a kid--and I had a Nintendo.
OK, well, I did have Super Dodgeball, and you did kill little computer men using balls--but then the guy came back two rounds later with brown skin and suddenly he was from India instead of Iceland. Nobody went home with cuts or bruises, either.
Reply: Ditto: WOW, more of the same (Score:2)
I wish USA politicians and the public would learn that war is never the right thing to do, but it may be necessary, and then should be ended as quickly and definitively as possible by attacking the politicians (dogmatist, religious, corporatist,
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But I can't see that kind of violent outcome in a game of Halo2.
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Back then, they weren't "neo-nazi", they were actual Nazis, or Hitler Youth [historyplace.com].
There is some interesting original footage of various fascist (German, Italian, Japanese) youth activities in Capra's Prelude to War [archive.org]. It's eye opening stuff.
Reason? (Score:4, Insightful)
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15316912/ [msn.com]
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you got it all wrong (Score:2)
By old people.
Re:you got it all wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
More aptly, this guy is elected by people who bother to vote
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At least one good thing can be said about such things: if the trend isn't reversed, at least their society will experience a short age of guaranteed
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If you've watched enough quality American entertainment, you'll know that nothing is so hilariously inevitable as somebody saying "Nobody would stupid enought to..." being followed by the precisely act in question.
See also: "Things couldn't possibly get worse.", and "Mayhem ensues."
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And let's not even think to look at why they have so much anger towards their fellow students in the first place. They probably got the idea of hurting other students from being hurt themselves. Maybe we should look into why these kids feel that they have to go to such extremes. What is the right outlet for the socially ostricized and quitely bul
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"Logic" (Score:4, Insightful)
1) Pretty females can have a stimulating effect on sex offenders (known and unknown), so will you ban women from walking in public?
2) Good tasting food can have a stimulating effect on people with eating disorders, so will you ban good tasting food?
How about doing something constructive and helping people recognize problems in their kids, providing free help to families with issues, and promiting good family relationships, instead?
Re:"Logic" (Score:4, Interesting)
Pretty females can have a stimulating effect on sex offenders (known and unknown), so will you ban women from walking in public?
Or make them wear burkas. Might as well. That's where the EU will be in 10 years time anyway. The lovely streetwalkers of Paris will become a thing of the past. :-(
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If you had wanted to drive your point home, you might have picked a consequence that was actually bad.
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Re:"Logic" (Score:5, Funny)
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The Veil Controversy [weeklystandard.com]
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1) Pretty females can have a stimulating effect on sex offenders (known and unknown), so will you ban women from walking in public?
You might be on to something. I'll have to see what our friends in Afghanistan -- oh, sorry, I mean Somalia -- think about that idea.
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Re:"Logic" (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah - luckily, that couldn't possibly happen, since that would be ridiculous. [nytimes.com]
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Re:"Logic" (Score:5, Interesting)
Such a ban has been in effect in Denmark since 2004, and I'm yet to see any restaurants close over it or any chefs complain that now they can't make their favorite dishes.
Hell, even McDonalds got on board very quickly. And they've even announced their intentions of extending the restrictions on transfatty acids to all of their European restaurents - all 6,300 of them. Even Kentucky Fried Chicken announced similar goals (they have restaurents in Denmark as well).
And all that without changing the way food tastes.
Oh, wait. You were being obtuse, weren't you?
What next? Going to complain that we don't allow odd things like, say, tar and mercury in your food due to health issues? I mean, people could just steer clear of the foods that contained that kind of stuff, right?
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Here is a snippet from the wikipedia article:
"Because of these facts and concerns, the NAS has concluded there is no safe level of trans fat consumption. There is no adequate level, recommended daily amount or tolerable upper limit
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Although true, I don't see how banning a game is going to prevent future violence. You can't apply that "logic" to other areas:
:P
1) Pretty females can have a stimulating effect on sex offenders (known and unknown), so will you ban women from walking in public?
2) Good tasting food can have a stimulating effect on people with eating disorders, so will you ban good tasting food?
How about doing something constructive and helping people recognize problems in their kids, providing free help to families with issues, and promiting good family relationships, instead?
Your counter-logic fails because it ignores "desensitise unstable characters".
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Trans-fats don't make food taste better.
They offer no positive nutritional value.
There's no reason to want to eat them.
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The government gets involved in a lot of things where they don't belong. There are many things I wish they'd keep out of. But they don't. On the other hand
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Here's a good labelling one I've been having fun with lately though
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By the way -- they're saying butter is better for you than margarine now.
Crytek is about... (Score:2)
Why the First Amendment is Important (Score:2)
In Germany, if a bill like this passes, it's probably enforceable. Whereas here in the US, it would be challenged on first amendment grounds.
Article 5 - Freedom of Expression (Score:2)
(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.
(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal hon
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From article 5 of the german constitution aka Basic Law: "Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship."
Apparently they ignore it just as nicely as we do on this side of the Atlantic too, given the ban on all kinds of things having t
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We have Nazis in the USA too. They have even, on occasion, paraded in the streets (through Black or Jewish neighborhoods, in fact), protected by police from hecklers.
For the most part, they are laughed at. It doesn't take a legal ban to render them harmless - letting them spout their doctrine on TV seems to make them objects of ridicule in and of itself.
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Why not quote the following paragraph too? "These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions fo
The first reaction by government... (Score:2, Insightful)
Surprised? Nope.
Sounds silly but ... (Score:2, Insightful)
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What the State Really Wants (Score:3, Insightful)
Not "German Minister of the Interior" (Score:5, Informative)
he (Beckstein) is not the "German Minister of the Interior" but the one of Bavaria (german: Bayern). Bavaria is the most conservative state in germany, ruled for nearly 60 years by the same party. He has been joined in his attempt by the minister of interior of lower saxony.
The core of the prolem is the definition of "killer games". Since nearly all major politicians are 60 or older, they have nearly no understanding of the topic. They believe e.g. that Counterstrike is played with a joystick and the goal of the game to be "killing hostages". Usually, hearing them, i'm torn between laughing and crying.
Regards, Martin
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They believe e.g. that Counterstrike is played with a joystick and the goal of the game to be "killing hostages".
What difference would it make if that were actually true?
It's safe to say they have the correct basic idea of what a game is, though on specific games clearly don't know what they are talking about. But it's not an issue of the specific game content or why they are against game x or game y. Even if CS were all about killing hostages, should it be censored? We would of course say "no", but they say "yes".
That's the issue that needs to be addressed, because their ignorance of specific games still doesn't exc
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To you Americans: Think Texas. That's about how Bavaria is compared to Germany.
An once of prevention (Score:5, Interesting)
But what is seldom appreciated is how often that a pound of prevention turns out to be worth only an ounce of cure. Or less.
The reason that the "ounce of prevention" strategy works is that it focuses you on simple, reasonable actions that accurately target the concern and produce few side effects. Like putting a lock on your door to prevent burglary. Now you could sit on your front porch and shoot at everybody who comes near your house that you think "looks shifty". There is no doubt a more vigorous preventive measure than locking your doors and widnows, but it isn't more effective.
It really doesn't matter whether something is done before or after the fact, so much that the action be chosen to produce the results desired, and not much if anything else.
And seeing as we've already triggered Godwin's law, I may as well raise the example of the Final Solution as an instance of the pound of prevention phenomonon. If people thought that the Jews where using their control of money to ruin the country, why didn't they simply pass a few banking regulation laws? Then nobody could ruin the country that way, Jew or otherwise. The answer is that the pound of prevention phenomon, like road rage, is driven by highly emotionally charged thinking. The kind that makes you act so stupidly that the only way not to die from embarassment is to do something even stupider.
If you're so concerned with pathologically violent people, why not simply screen for them at various reasonable points? You provide mental health services at school to disturbed kids and training for teachers on how to recognize and deal with them. You screen people who have violent run-ins with other people before they go onto bigger and badder things. You run a public education campaign so people can recognize when their associates and familiy members need help -- maybe a few people will recognize they need help themselves.
Will this get rid of all violence by disturbed people? No. But it will do a hell of a lot more than banning video games.
Gunther "JT" Beckstein? (Score:2)
Jack? Jack Thompson? Did you finally piss off and leave us alone, only to change your name and harass another country?
Sad, really, seeing these pathetic little old men who don't understand the modern world. At least "tubes" sounds harmless enough, but twits with passion about their delusions really need to step down and limit their ranting to yelling at kids to get off their lawns.
You know what causes the most school shootings... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm pretty sure Islamic extremist groups didn't become violent from video games, but because they felt a need to lash out. The behavior is, plain and simple, unchecked immaturity combined with a little knowledge.
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It seems to be pretty much the accepted order in American high schools for the jocks to physically threaten and intimidate the other students. It never seems to make the news until one of the smaller guys gets a weapon and starts shooting.
FPS Doug (Score:3, Funny)
Beckstein NOT germanys Minister of the Interior (Score:5, Informative)
He is the Minister of Interior of Bavaria, and Bavaria is just one of 16 states (Bundesland) in germany. That's like calling Arnold Schwarzenegger president of the united states.
And besides that, he isn't even very popular in germany (at least outside bavaria).
To give you a picture of his political position: The conservatives (CDU) are the largest party in germany at the moment, althouth they are only supported by about 35% across germany.
In bavaria, things are a lot different. Bavaria is so conservative, that the more moderate CDU is split into two partys. The party in bavaria is called CSU, so the rest of germany does not link the radical positions of the CSU to the conservatives outside bavaria.
That works incredible well: the CSU dominates bavaria around 60% for decades, with political statements like the above. And Mr. Beckstein is often the one saying the radical statements.
Shall I mention that Mr. Beckstein is a huge fan of the Bush administration whereas most germans are not?
Re:Beckstein NOT germanys Minister of the Interior (Score:3, Informative)
Maybe I should add, that these these statements are not new.
After the school shoot-out in erfurt 2002 the government introduced an age-rating on video games, although Mr. Beckstein and his political friends demanded the full ban of violent computer games.
If you want a balanced report on this, read this article [itworldcanada.com]
He's not a Federal minister (Score:2)
That's like saying he's the Attorney General of Texas, or something.
Oh man, this pisses me off! (Score:2)
But, first what's the command to bring up a reticule IRL? Mine's busted, I think. The graphics are decent, but the server must have wicked lag, 'cos I move really slow. Does anyone know the spawn point for ammo packs? I think I need to walk over one first before I
Absolutely Undeniable? Try The Plain Facts (Score:2)
You want the single most compelling argument that this guy, and every other politician like him, are talking out of their asses?
Try the U.S. government's own Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics graph for Serious violent crime by perceived age of offender [usdoj.gov].
Consider that the serious violent crime rate (and murder if you check those numbers too) has dropped pretty much year
It's true!! (Score:3, Funny)
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Me, I just have this uncontrollable urge to find a bunch of bunnies and start disco dancing...
Some clarification (Score:5, Insightful)
He is doing it to make sure people don't notice all the scandals his administration is involved in, for example they just completely botched a police IT spending bill, wasted millions on new software which does not work. And his law and order state had issues with soccer hooligans.
In short: the guy is a joke. Don't take him seriously.
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Re:Going a little overboard (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Where do you draw the line (Score:5, Funny)
Well, then, your car will immediately be stopped by the police and you automatically lose the race. In fact, in order to keep anyone's feelings from being hurt, GT4 will be rewritten so that all races always end in a tie between all drivers.
Yes they do. In fact, the makers of personal computers will be liable if someone uses their personal computer to virtually harm another being--including making them feel bad. Of course, makers of personal computers will then sue all of their component suppliers and so on down the line.
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