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Microsoft Windows XP N Flops 277
ChocLinux writes "Dell, Lenovo and Fujitsu Siemens have announced they have no plans to pre-install Windows XP N, the version of Windows without a bundled media player that Microsoft released to comply with the European Commission antitrust ruling. It is now almost six months since Microsoft released Windows XP N, and the fact that no-one wants to sell it suggests that this antitrust case may be going the way of the US one. Also, the article raises the question - now that RealNetworks has settled with Microsoft, will anyone bother to complain about this? Of course there's a chance that the EC might bring a new antitrust case against Microsoft, but how much more effective is that likely to be?"
No wonder it failed. (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, and what about the 'real monopoly' in Windows? It is also known as Internet Explorer, and only God knows why EU did not do anything about that when they were at it.
Re:No wonder it failed. (Score:5, Informative)
1. A fine of ~500 Million Euro
2. Windows without media player
3. Making available documentation for interfaces.
Microsoft is appealing the verdict and dragging its feet with respect to point 3. We'll need to keep up the pressure on Microsoft, the EU and others to have Microsoft open its interfaces.
Re:No wonder it failed. (Score:3, Informative)
It is open (Score:5, Insightful)
Also what's this IE monopoly you speak of? I'm using Firefox right now in Windows, works great. Windows seems to do nothing to stop it form working, and indeed will make it the default browser, if asked to.
Re:It is open (Score:2)
Re:It is open (Score:2)
Re:It is open (Score:2)
Re:It is open (Score:2)
Re:It is open (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It is open (Score:4, Funny)
It's an outrage. You can't update Microsoft's software on 3rd party platforms! To make things worse, Windows update only works on Windows! They force you to use their platform to update their platform! It doesn't even work on Linux!
VC-1 is just the video codec (Score:3, Interesting)
You're right on the license fees - one can get those from MPEG-LA without having to get approval, or write a check to, Microsoft directly.
Re:It is open (Score:5, Insightful)
You are if people supplying or selling the data or entertainment media you want to access only supply it in these proprietary (I include IE here, we all know lots of sites only work in IE) formats. You can use various codecs etc, but when it comes to DRM you have no legal alternative. So this is handing MS a monopoly on downloadable media because they can tell all the vendors they only need to supply in one locked format, paying Bill his tithe for every download. Trying to forestall this is what the whole case is about, not the players per se.
Re:It is open (Score:2)
Re:No wonder it failed. (Score:2)
Re:No wonder it failed. (Score:2)
Come on... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Come on... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:That's a nice sentiment and all... (Score:2)
Re:That's a nice sentiment and all... (Score:2)
That's insightful? Sheesh -- the Slashdolt mod are out in full force on this one!
Look, I'm no fan of the EC decision. I think it was counterpro
This was software designed to satisfy bureaucracy (Score:4, Insightful)
Some fun facts (Score:5, Insightful)
MS having to offer a version of XP without the media player preinstalled isn't the only outcome of the antitrust case and certainly isn't the most important part, yet
First off, people should be aware that MS was also fined 500 million euros, quite a lot of money, wouldn't you agree.
Second, and probably most important, the EU found that MS is on pupose hindering interoperability between its products and third party products. In essence, they use their monopoly on the desktop, to also sell server software. To counter this MS now has to disclose technical information to its competitors to enable them to compete on an equal footing.
Now of course MS is trying to give out as little information as possible, but they don't seem to get by with this tactic, which is of course a good thing.
Third, about the media player. I don't think it's that important if companies actually sell the version without the media player, what is important is the fact that it is now clear that bundling more and more desktop apps in order to utilize a monopoly in one area to get market share in an other one is a no-no.
Re:Some fun facts (Score:3, Insightful)
To you, me and the vast majority of people, yes, it's a lot of money. But to Microsoft it isn't.
And this will do what, exactly? Make them misbehave some other way? Dodge around this particular method of slimin
Re:Some fun facts (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually corporations are ment to place profit above all else. If the aditional profits likely to result from breaking a law are likely to be greater than the likely losses from fines and lawsuits then they could argue an "obligation" to break the law. Even to treat fines as a "cost of doing business". Note also that lawsuits agains
Re:Some fun facts (Score:3, Insightful)
Using this logic a drug dealer could claim an "obligation" to traffic drugs since if the risk of getting caught was outweighed by the potential profits from selling dope. Similarly, if an athlete thought st
Re:Some fun facts (Score:2)
Re:"Flamebait"? Wow! (Score:2)
Even the GNAA trolls have logins.
Re:Some fun facts (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem with fining a monopoly is that they can simply pass the costs onto their customers. Unless the fine is large enough to cause Microsoft immediate cash flow problems they are likely to laugh it off.
Re:Some fun facts (Score:3, Funny)
I seem to remember a comment on the Daily Show the last MS go around that went somehting like "at that rate, Microsoft will run out of money just 100 years after the earth crashes into the sun."
barn door, horse... (Score:4, Insightful)
I suppose there would be no appreciable mass market for a version of windows without IE either.
It would be nice if one these courts acted with clue and actually addressed the problem and not the symptom. Can you imagine if the AT&T ruling had been "offer phone service without long distance"? Instead, a court with balls actually broke up the old company and prevented the "parent" from competing in the market they had abused.
Yes, I know that's a gloss/simplification, but the point is that structural wrongs require structural remedies.
Re:barn door, horse... (Score:2)
Do you expect the EC to demand that Microsoft split itelf into smaller companies within Europe?
Since this is an American company the best they can hope to do is annoy them and hope GWB doesn't retaliate by (say) increasing the import tarif on some european product.
Re:barn door, horse... (Score:2)
Like it or not, more products and services come from the US to Europe than go in the other direction, and seeing as the EU do have teeth, it would be incredibly stupid for GWB to get in a tit-for-tat battle over import tariffs that he can't win.
Re:barn door, horse... (Score:2)
What bothers me the most is that Europe isn't full of morons, it's not stupid. But where's their computer industry? Where's Europe's OS? They were totally asleep during the entire computer revolution, and *now* they want involvement in the industry? Y
Re:barn door, horse... (Score:2)
Breaking up a monopoly doesn't have the effect a lot of people seem to think -- it briefly opens up the market to greater competition, but a company that is in a monopoly position, unless granted it by th
Re:barn door, horse... (Score:2)
Re:barn door, horse... (Score:2)
You mean like "apt-get" does. Also Windows Update isn't big dialogue box free anyway. If anything a random pop up
Re:barn door, horse... (Score:2)
Re:barn door, horse... (Score:2)
Re:barn door, horse... (Score:2)
The EC's plan with XP N was that some player vendor (like, say, Sony) would pay OEMs to ship XP N + some version of their player and make money of an ad stream, an upgraded version, or some other source (CD sales, for instance). That's how shovelware works.
In this case, though, that didn't have the expected outcome. Real, Sony, others...none of them ever took up the gauntlet. Why?
There are several possible reasons.
(1) Consu
Re:barn door, horse... (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft would become two monopolies if it was brok
Re:barn door, horse... (Score:2)
I'd buy it
As long as the functionality (Help, Windows Explorer, etc) worked as well, I could deal with IE not being there.
Huh! and is MS to be blamed for that?? (Score:5, Insightful)
Complain about what?? Is Microsoft to be blamed for companies refusing the carry Windows XP-N? Sometimes I wonder why submissions are worded just to make it through the Slashdot Editors.
I have also wondered why a company should be penalized for including a web-browser and a multimedia player. Every modern OS has one built in. But then, it could be just my biased viewpoint.
Re:Huh! and is MS to be blamed for that?? (Score:2)
Re:Huh! and is MS to be blamed for that?? (Score:5, Informative)
That's not true.
Mac & Windows have them built in, but they are a minority.
Which, pray, is the built in Web Browser for OpenBSD 3.8 ?
How about Solaris 10 ?
What Media Player does FreeBSD ship with ?
Re:Huh! and is MS to be blamed for that?? (Score:2)
Re:Huh! and is MS to be blamed for that?? (Score:5, Informative)
The situations is exactly identical on Mac and on Windows. On Mac OS X, the web browser (HTML redering) functionality is WebKit and Safari is just a thin GUI shell around it. In the same way, IE is just a thin GUI shell around the web browser (HTML rendering) functionality embedded into the OS.
If you remove the IE shell, nothing will break in Windows. However, if you remove the HTML rendering capability lots of things will break. In the same way, if you remove Safari nothing will break in OS X but if you remove WebKit, tons of things will break. There's a HUGE amount of applications that rely on WebKit!!
Of course Slashdot readers often overlook this fact because they think it's cool to bitch about Microsoft.
Re:Huh! and is MS to be blamed for that?? (Score:2)
Re:Huh! and is MS to be blamed for that?? (Score:2, Informative)
Apple has Safari/Webkit bundled with the OS, but as they only have single digit market share this bundled applications can not be used to twist anybodies arm. They can't make proprietary web extensions that fail to render on other peoples browsers, no developer would use them.
Microsoft, on the other hand, is the clear market leader. They can add some wonderf
Re:Huh! and is MS to be blamed for that?? (Score:2)
Re:You do not understand the term 'monopoly'. (Score:3, Informative)
Apparently you need to speak with the judges of the US DC circuit court, because they don't understand the term 'monopoly' either. After you clear it up with them, maybe they'll help you explain it to the European Commission.
The very fact that Apple exist and sell their own operating system means that Microsoft does not have a 'monopoly' on desktop operating systems.
The courts disagree. You'd better straighten them out.
Similarly, Microsoft were never convicted of being a 'monopoly', which in itsel
Re:You do not understand the term 'monopoly'. (Score:3, Insightful)
The court held that Microsoft held a monopoly on x86 computer desktop operating systems. Apple was explicitely excluded from the market chosen for the DOJ lawsuit.
If your market is simply "desktop computer operating systems", then the court did not rule that Microsoft held a monopoly in that area.
The best thing that ever happened to Microsoft in the anti-trust department was Apple's decision to switch to Intel hardware.
Re:Huh! and is MS to be blamed for that?? (Score:2)
That's not true.
Mac & Windows have them built in, but they are a minority.
Don't be dense. Given the context of the subject we're definitely talking about consumer OS's. Every modern OS for the demographic that is relevant to the topic at hand has a bundled media player, web browser, file exporer, and all sorts of things that make a computer useful to consumers.
Re:Huh! and is MS to be blamed for that?? (Score:3, Informative)
OK, so that's understandable from a support perspective. The Microsoft support desk wouldn't want to deal with any random crap loaded up by the manufacturer,
Re:Huh! and is MS to be blamed for that?? (Score:2)
Thye wouldn't anyway. OEM installs are supported by the OEM, not MS. You used to get whole Dell desktops on top of Win 3.1, for instance. Usually end up turning most of it off.
Re:Huh! and is MS to be blamed for that?? (Score:2)
Except that Microsoft expect the retailer/OEM to provide support to customers in the first place.
Capitalism (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Funny how... (Score:4, Funny)
Wrong target (Score:2, Interesting)
Then let the market decides which is the best OS. If it is still windows so be it. It simply means that the competitors aren't smarter than the competition from the 80's. When you have a competitive platform crippled with some many security flaws and PC maker free from any exclusivity, it must do the trick otherwise they are simply really bad at business.
Nobody knows ho
Tax application (application) (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Tax application (application) (Score:2)
Just providing an Apple/MS version is like having protestant/Catholic on a government form, but not Hindu, Satanist, Islam, animist, Buddhist, Ismaili -- due to the difficulty of enumerating what religion a person might claim, you have to provide an "other", otherwise the "other" folks will be peeved.
I didn't even know there was one (Score:3, Interesting)
What player do you use? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:What player do you use? (Score:2)
Re:What player do you use? (Score:2)
Re:I didn't even know there was one (Score:2, Flamebait)
Wow, delete the fucking icon. Stop being a karma whore.
Re:I didn't even know there was one (Score:2)
Perhaps you should try decaf?
Small fines = big profits (Score:5, Insightful)
The really important point is #3, interoperability with other platforms. Naturally MS are holding out on this one too. It's likely to become even more important if webservices take off because with their OS Microsoft can act as a choke point between every provider and every end-user.
Microsoft are acting in a predictable way. They are a monolopy, and the way to continue with your monopoly rents is to fight every case with every method available right on until the bitter end. Do the arithmetic. It's a no-brainer. Only jail-time and billions in fines would make a difference.
Re:Small fines = big profits (Score:2)
Re:Small fines = big profits (Score:2)
Re:Small fines = big profits (Score:2)
It's all about the price (Score:3, Insightful)
But since there was no price difference, this thing was DOA. Everyone knew it the moment it was announced.
Re:It's all about the price (Score:2)
Re:It's all about the price (Score:2)
Make it optional (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Make it optional (Score:2)
Contrary to what one might think, after all, this ruling is not *direc
Does this mean that... (Score:3, Funny)
Am I the only one (Score:4)
Come on: when you read "N Flops", it is about floating point arithmetic, right?
Is anyone really surprised? (Score:2)
Remember, Windows Media Player isn't just the application; it's all the codecs included with the application and the underlying WMPlayer framework within the OS.
With that in mind, why would any computer manufacturer which sells Windows systems, and caters to the home market, want to sell a crippled version of Windows, which can't even play a CD?
IMO this is ver
gimme a break (Score:2)
This whole fiasco was merely a way of making people think something was 'being done' about the Microsoft problem. Don't look behind the curtain.
The Fine (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Speaking as a mac user, it pains me to say this (Score:2, Insightful)
Installing things like "yaboot" on a MacMini can be really dangerous. Following the instructions to the T I ended up with a MacMini that I couldn't boot, boot from CD, etc [the lack of a BIOS is really annoying btw]. Fortunately I bought the thing at Best Buy and they allowed me to return a "non booting box"
Point is, Apple is just as guilty as say Dell fo
Have you totally forgot YellowDog? (Score:2)
Re:Speaking as a mac user, it pains me to say this (Score:4, Insightful)
What can you not run? Where did you get the expectation that going outside the Apple Distortion Field would be a nice experience? As far as alternative operating systems go that can run on Mac Hardware, it's pretty easy to find out what will and will not run. YelloDog Linux is pretty clear.
What? Which particular OS are you forced to use? We've bought Dell's with Linux at the company I work for. As far as home use goes, I think I heard there is a FreeDOS version so you can put on whatever you wish. Regardless, Dell doesn't force you to do anything if you don't choose to purchase from them. If their selection doesn't suit you, go elsewhere.
No, you bought a MacOS box from a niche company that provides a particular experience with their software/hardware.
Re:Speaking as a mac user, it pains me to say this (Score:2)
What? Which particular OS are you forced to use? We've bought Dell's with Linux at the company I work for.
Buy a consumer desktop from Dell without an OS and we'll talk.
On anything considered a "server", you can buy it with linux... but if it's meant for end user, it's windows, or microsoft stops giving them deep discounts.
~W
Re:Speaking as a mac user, it pains me to say this (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm using one right now... let's talk [dell.com].
I dunno about yaboot... (Score:3, Informative)
I'm a bit shocked you manged to make your Mini unbootable, even installing iffy software. I'm not completely up-to-date, but booting with command-option-N-V held down should have fixed you up. Or perhaps booting with command-option-O-F and typing "reset-nvram" at the prompt.
I take it inserting a CD and holding d
Re:I dunno about yaboot... (Score:2)
I'm sure OF is great, unfortunately I was totally unable to use it.
Tom
UBUNTU (Score:2)
Re:Speaking as a mac user, it pains me to say this (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually, you didn't buy an x86 system so theres a lot of stuff you're not going to be able to run on it. Apple is foucused on providing a unique user experience so their system is obviously going to run different than a Dell box would.
Re:Speaking as a mac user, it pains me to say this (Score:2, Troll)
No, you bought a product made by Apple. They develop their products as they see fit for their target audience. While you can do what you want with their product, they do not need to support your use case. You need to find a product that meets your needs. It doesn't sound like Apple develops what you are looking for.
The last thing we need is the government telling Apple to waste time and money making their product do things that their target market doesn't care abou
Re:Speaking as a mac user, it pains me to say this (Score:2)
Once the boot loader was installed [and failed to boot linux] the box was hosed. The Mini would always load the bootloader [regardless of whether my gentoo boot cd was in or the OSX install cd] and the keyboard combos failed to persuade it.
That's what I call OS lockin.
At least on the PC it's a simple matter of changing boot
Re:Um? (Score:2)
Yep. I get ya. mobile AMD64 with a current(ish) Nvidia gfx chipset right?
That seems to be the impossible combination this year.
Last year Compaq/hp had them (non mobile 64 though)
Keep looking. Maybe next year.
Re:Um? (Score:2)
Why don't laptops just come with a couple mini-pci, maybe a mini pci-e, cpu, ram and HD ports and just let you sort it out. Make the motherboard replaceable [and the lcd] and voila. The only significant challenge is matching the lid to the case. Maybe sell the case and make the LCD insertable.
Point is I should be able to build my own laptop given the major components. I wouldn't mind a
You already can... (Score:2)
http://www.computerpoweruser.com/editorial/articl
Not exactly what you're describing, but it's a start.
It doesn't work for most (Score:4, Insightful)
I like Linux, but here's the problem for most consumers:
1) iTunes doesn't work. Please spare me the whine about how there are alternatives. Nobody cares about them. iTunes has to work.
2) OpenOffice 2.0 is okay, although you'll have to twist some arms.
3) All those cool utilities that come with people's camera won't work.
4) Most printer drivers for those inexpensive new printers won't work.
5) No consumer level photo editing software. And if you say "gimp", I'm going to drive to your house and poke you in the eye
6) None of the millions of little special interest applications won't work.
If all you're doing is browsing the web and writing letters, Linux is fine. But if you have an iPod, or use a digital camera/movie player, you're screwed.
Sorry, but the bar moved for Linux. Office is no longer the hurdle for adoption.
Re:It doesn't work for most (Score:2)
Ok, so my buddy tells me about iTunes, and I go to Apple.com and get the download... but, oh wait, it's only available for Windows and OS X. Where's the Linux download? There is none. Chalk one up to the original poster. Since you don't know what "WINE" is, other than the alcoholic drink, you don't have that alternative open to you.
(BTW, Wine is not easy to use. If you think it
Re:It doesn't work for most (Score:2)
Re:the customers need to... (Score:2)
Example: Ubuntu 5.10 -- I absolutely love it to bits, but there is one machine I have with a wireless card that I can't get working. Another that does rather irritate me is that I like num-lock *enabled* when I log in; to do this in Ubuntu involed installing some package or other and making some config changes... and that ignores the time to google to find this info.
Other minor
Re:Restrictions don't work (Score:2)
Hold your horses, there. Nobody said that.
The fact is that people want as much as they can get for as little cost possible. People want a media player. Unfortunately, at the moment, Windows Media Player is the best they can get, so they want it. Integration has little to do with it. It's cost/benefit. And more importantly, it's cost/benefit right now.
The problem with antitrust remedies is that, in the computer industry, they come years too
Re:Restrictions don't work (Score:2)
The simple fact of the matter is that people used IE because, at the time and ignoring all revisionist history, IE was a much better browser than Netscape. And you know how you can tell this wasn'
Re:Better way ! (Score:2)