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House Dems Turn Out the Lights On the GOP
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Fri Aug 01, 2008 01:38 PM
from the not-quite-like-throwing-a-blanket-over-the-birdcage dept.
from the not-quite-like-throwing-a-blanket-over-the-birdcage dept.
Politico is reporting that while GOP leaders opposed a motion to adjourn the House, the Democrats have closed up shop and even turned out the lights. While the lights and microphones have since been turned back on, it makes for an amusing mental image and possibly even a few dark YouTube video spoofs. "Only about a half-dozen Republicans were on the floor when this began, but the crowd has grown to about 20 now, according to Patrick O'Connor. 'This is the people's House,' Rep, Thaddeus McCotter (R-Mich.) said. 'This is not Pelosi's politiburo.' Democratic aides were furious at the GOP stunt, and reporters were kicked out of the Speaker's Lobby, the space next to the House floor where they normally interview lawmakers."
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Wow, that's mature (Score:5, Funny)
It's great that C-SPAN covers kindergarten now.
Re:Wow, that's mature (Score:5, Informative)
At least they're not engaging in fisticuffs.
like they did around the civil war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Brooks#Sumner_Assault [wikipedia.org]
and again in 1902:
http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/Senate_Fistfight.htm [senate.gov]
Or like they do in Bolivia:
http://www.blinkx.com/video/fist-fight-in-bolivia-congress/BUTRtHbu7LQxO1wF [blinkx.com]
And we can at least be glad no one got shot by the vice president.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Brooks#Sumner_Assault [wikipedia.org]
Er... uh... well, rather at least no one was MURDERED by the vice president in this instance.
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It's called speculation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Oil prices are high because speculators think future supply will be low. If we drill, speculators may think future supply will be higher. This will lower current prices even though the oil won't be immediately available.
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Re:It's called speculation... (Score:5, Informative)
Why do amateurs, non-traders (in anything) keep thinking that this is all "speculators" or "commies" or some other bullshit that is driving oil prices high?
Commodity traders CANNOT affect long term oil prices if there is no problems with supply. The reason is if you buy oil, you have to take delivery of that oil. If supply outstrips demand all the time, the price will only go up if the traders pile up oil like crazy. But then what?? They have to SELL it on THE SAME market as the suppliers anyway. So, at some point in the future you end up with A LOT of extra supply getting pumped in and commodity traders end up LOSING A LOT OF MONEY!
Fortunately, these people are NOT so stupid to lose hundreds of billions to make oil prices go up for few weeks.
And don't even start to bring out the denier points about "record rentals of oil tankers", "oil tankers 4x price what they used to be" and similar crap that the global warming deniers bring up ("mars is warming" and similar horseshit). Smoke and mirrors, not reality people.
The REAL cause of the high prices is NOT the traders, it is the problems with supply. Supply cannot keep up with the DEMAND. So, prices go up. Prices go up until there is more supply, which will just not going to happen any time soon no matter what, or the demand drops. So far, the demand dropped a LITTLE. So, prices are coming down.
In commodity trading, you never think years in advance, you think days or maybe weeks in advance. The largest ??? regarding supply is still Israel/Iran issue. Then there is the problems with Nigerian supply. And finally, the demand for oil inside a lot of the oil producing countries is INCREASING VERY FAST (thanks to heavily subsidized fossil fuels there), meaning their exports are suffering. See Mexico as one very good example of that.
If Republicans were serious about an energy policy of the country, they would first mandate that ALL new pipelines between urban centers be able to carry both natural gas and hydrogen. And then they would fix the fiscal budgetary issues and start to invest in translating this economy from carbon to hydrogen. That's what they are there for - *strategic* planning, not reactionary shit they dreamed up because they are up for election in few months.
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Re:It's called speculation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well most speculation isn't 5 or 6 years in the future. It's done a few months ahead.
If Congress said "drill wherever you want" right now, we would see exactly 0 barrels of that oil this year.
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Re:It's called speculation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Speculators aren't idiots and know exactly how little oil is in the US reserves. Which still doesn't explain the sneaky and underhanded antics of the conservatives. Having the lights turned out on them is exactly what they deserve, they shouldn't try to sneak in and enact legislation while everyone is on vacation.
Maybe those people that I elect and pay shouldn't be on vacation while I'm looking for second job so I can pay for the gas to get to my first job!
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Re:Cancel vacation to pass more laws? (Score:5, Insightful)
What laws did they put in effect that are causing you to go broke? I'm not going broke driving to work, maybe your budget problems aren't actually congress' fault, you ever think of that?
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Re:Cancel vacation to pass more laws? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's always congresses fault when the wealthy or conservatives go broke.
contrawise
When democrats, the poor, or liberals are having issues, it's due to our lack of personal responsibility.
Didn't you get the Memo?
---------- Pug
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Re:It's called speculation... (Score:5, Insightful)
As you can see from replies, the extra stuff you threw in at the end of that sentence, only distracts people. The fact that the oil companies are making record profits, is utterly irrelevant to your point. But then it gets people to complain about that part (the irrelevant and unimportant tangent) of your statement, and then they're no longer listening to what you really said.
If people want to bitch about the proposed drilling changes, they should focus on the costs of the drilling (environmental, I guess? or is there a government subsidy here too?), and compare that to the expected benefit (nearly null). Throwing in additional snipes at the oil companies just turns it into an us-vs-them bitchfest, instead of the cost/benefit analysis that it should be.
I swear, every single thing I've read about this topic, has included this irrelevant bullshit, and the result of it has been the same every time: complete lack of communication.
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Re:It's called speculation... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:It's called speculation... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's kind of like blaming RC Cola for a rise in soda prices. They'll get increased profits as they raise to match Coke and Pepsi, but they didn't start the rise.
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Re:It's called speculation... (Score:5, Interesting)
You're a little behind on your news cycle. They missed the analyst estimate, but not by much.
An interesting statistic caught my eye while looking over their financials:
Now who's #1 in the "record profits" field? Can you say "conflict of interest?"
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Re:It's called speculation... (Score:5, Interesting)
But I have no doubt that eventually the American people will demand accountability from these turds, and from anyone who enabled them.
Ha! I wish! Once these people are out of office they'll go about their happy lives bothered by no one. Their family and friends will be richer and more powerful than 8 years ago. Congress and the judicial system will do nothing and the public will demand nothing. Most will say, "Well, he's out of office, so he's not doing me harm any longer." They'll be wrong, but they'll be content.
Other than that, great post.
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Re:It's called speculation... (Score:5, Interesting)
Of the 40,000 active oil fields in the world, not one of them is refilling itself.
Geochemist Says Oil Fields May Be Refilled Naturally http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE3D91530F935A1575AC0A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2 [nytimes.com]
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Exactly (Score:5, Interesting)
If...
the price of oil = X dollars + (opening a wildlife area to drilling and damage)
...then we are not lowering the price of oil; we're just paying for some of the oil with financial resources and some with environmental resources.
The price of oil has still gone up.
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Re:It's called speculation... (Score:5, Informative)
What if my business isn't sustainable with a 5% profit margin?
Why exactly wouldn't it be?
If your business isn't sustainable after ALL your expenses are paid, including your salary, r&d costs, and any other costs you might incurr and there is still money left over (hint - that's the 'profit'), then you are completely incompetent.
In a small sole proprietership, where the owner doesn't draw a wage, but rather just 'keeps the profits' as his compensation, then sure, if the profits aren't high enough to adequately compensate him, he will close the business. But it would be more accurate to say in that situation that from the perspective of the business, that it is actually unprofitable, because its not covering the cost of keeping its most important 'staff member'.
Corporations aren't run like this. Profits are used to grow the business (and growth, by definition, implies that it has already been 'sustained'. and in some cases, paid back to shareholders as dividends.
So in the case of big-oil, record profits are just that: an opportunity for them to grow and to further line the pockets of shareholders and investors.
So quit harping on the "record profits" of the oil companies. It just demonstrates your complete lack of understanding of economics at the most basic level.
While you just demonstrated your complete lack of understanding of business at the most basic level.
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Re:How about the CNN source? (Score:5, Insightful)
http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/09/news/economy/oil_cuba/index.htm
US companies didn't bother to submit a bid because legally they couldn't drill that close to US shore. China has no such limitation.
I think they didn't submit bids because they didn't want to go to prison for violating trade sanctions against Cuba.
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Re:It's called speculation... (Score:5, Insightful)
You do know that shale oil is incredibly difficult and expensive to process, right? So, the actual amounts that are economically extractable are minuscule compared to demand.
And, you know, private businesses exist to make money, not ensure the safety of anyone. If it looks cheaper to do something dangerous, they will do it. Remember the Pinto recall?
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Re:Wow, that's mature (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, it is both sides acting childish.
Democrats for taking their ball and going home. Republicans staying around whining like a 4 year old.
Those people who think one side or the other is acting properly while the other side isn't, is just ... well stupid.
They get paid for working full time, I suggest that they work like the rest of us "regular" people and take only two weeks per year vacation.
I know, silly me to expect the public servants to act like servants rather than bosses.
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There's a rationale to this (Score:5, Insightful)
Elected representatives are supposed to remain in touch with the districts they represent. Having them remain in Washington, D.C. 11 and 1/2 months a year makes it difficult to do that.
Not, of course, that every representative uses his or her vacation time to keep in touch with his or her constituents, mind you. But that's part of the point, at least.
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Re:Wow, that's mature (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, the House moved to Adjourn at the scheduled time- because what was being proposed wasn't actually pressing business (Like a WAR...). That's not taking their ball and going home- that's just doing what ends up happening each and every year since the beginnings of the current form of Government we have in the US. It's far from the same thing as the antics going on right now from the Republicans.
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Re:Wow, that's mature (Score:5, Insightful)
So the energy and oil crisis isn't pressing? Then let the Democrats explicitly say so, and give the (R) campaign fodder for the Nov elections.
I'm not defending the (R) either. They do the same sort of crap all the time too. I'm sick of both parties.
Vote Third Party in November.
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Re:Wow, that's mature (Score:5, Insightful)
What? You think *talk* of drilling brought oil down $20? Really? You mean it wasn't the fact that the economy is falling like a rock, unemployment is up and that for the first time in memory americans actually drove less?
It was talk about drilling?
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Re:Wow, that's mature (Score:5, Insightful)
That is, and I'd hope you agree, completely irrational.
If you were an oil trader and knew that if we started drilling today and that oil wouldn't get used for another 10 years, why in God's name would that affect your bidding on contracts for September delivery?
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"Prematurely" based on what? (Circular Logic) (Score:5, Informative)
Your argument is essentially that they acted inappropriately because their adjournment was premature and was therefore a premature adjournment.
There was a perfectly valid vote where a majority chose to adjourn. Republicans wanted to take control of the agenda. They were not allowed to. The Senate had adjourned the day before. Its grandstanding by a party too used to being able to bully Democrats.
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The motion to adjourn passed... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm missing the story other than Boehner and gang are trying to make a fuss about nothing.
The motion to adjourn passed, so the Speaker banged the gavel and they went home. Am I supposed to think that the Democrats are somehow disregarding the rules of the House and refusing to let Republicans speak?
Re:The motion to adjourn passed... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Actually, look it up... (Score:5, Funny)
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Oh the irony... (Score:5, Insightful)
If the Republicans cut off debate on the Democrats and went home for vacation, I can guarantee you that this story would have been about the Republicans censoring the Democrats.
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Re:The motion to adjourn passed... (Score:5, Funny)
I move to table this line of jokes.
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Yes I can (Score:5, Informative)
Changing a bill after it had been passed [adn.com]
Holding open vote [cbsnews.com]
(additional examples [thinkprogress.org])
It is against House rules to keep a vote open in order to alter the outcome.
"Abusive holds" is difficult to quantify but I'd point towards Tom Coburn's extensive holds [politico.com].
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That's not all! (Score:5, Informative)
The summary didn't state everything. Pelosi was trying to stop a vote concerning foreign oil drilling. The REP's are currently mad and speaking to the public who have gathered in the upstairs gallery, arguing (one-sided, of course) their concerns and solutions for rising gas and energy prices.
Re:That's not all! (Score:5, Informative)
Not bringing up votes on bills that the Speaker doesn't like is very standard practice and has gone on for decades.
Any bill can be brought to the floor by 1/2 of the House via a discharge petition. Republicans apparently don't have the votes to bring the bill to the floor over the objections of the Speaker.
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Corrected quote (Score:5, Funny)
I think that's closer to what he was trying to say.
Didin't the GOP do this too (Score:5, Informative)
As I recall in 2003 the GOP chair of a committee refused to allow the Democratic members of the committe to speak, ignored a motion to continue the hearing and stormed off WITH the gavel in hand...all this beacuse the dems wanted to call some witnesses for testimony.
I forget the details but google knows all.
Re:Didin't the GOP do this too (Score:5, Informative)
Ah, yes. That was quite an event. Check wiki [wikipedia.org] for the June 17th event where it happened. There was also a case where the Dems held an 'unofficial' gathering which was so unofficial that they couldn't use any titles, such as 'chairman', as the GOP held the majority then. Regardless, Jim S. crashed that party and pulled the same stunt. Still looking for the story of the second case.
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you think that is something ? (Score:5, Informative)
even in turkish parliament there has been a lot of fights, and one representative was killed even, by a stray fist landing unintendedly.
how about no politics crap in slashdot? (Score:5, Insightful)
all it is is flames in both directions. we have more important things to discuss. like, for instance, goatse.cx
on topic? (Score:5, Insightful)
Were the lights turned off by robot running linux?
Seriously editors, the best way to compete with Digg is not to compete with Digg. People will come.
Selective outrage (Score:5, Insightful)
Politics is mostly theater, faux outrage, and pandering. Why would a stunt like this cause the average Slashdot reader's blood to boil?
Because it's the GOP pulling the stunt. I don't recall much scoffing at Dennis Kucinich's attempt to hold impeachment hearings on President Bush. No, I guess that was all about a righteous avenger shining a spotlight on The Greatest Evil Our Planet Has Ever Known.
These kinds of stunts get the media's attention and some coverage for issues one party or the other thinks is important. The fact that the Democrats didn't even hold a vote on domestic drilling despite overwhelming public support is something that ought to be mocked.
Re:Republican grandstanding (Score:5, Insightful)
That was their excuse ten years ago. It would take ten years to see any benefit, so why bother?
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Re:Republican grandstanding (Score:5, Insightful)
Then I guess the vote could wait a few weeks without the economy imploding yes?
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Re:Republican grandstanding (Score:5, Informative)
They won't be holding the vote in a few weeks. Pelosi doesn't intend to ever have the vote.
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Crude Oil is an appreciating asset (Score:5, Insightful)
The value of crude oil has gone up considerably in the last 10 years. All the oil that was not pumped out of the ground under the U.S. and burned in the last decade is now much more valuable, and if you can avoid pumping and burning it for another 10 years then it will be still more valuable.
Given that Americans are handing huge bills to future generations, including a $10 trillion debt and another $80 trillion in unfunded liabilities (Medicare, Social Security), it is nice that some valuable resources can be passed on too. It is unfortunate that many Americans seem to think "If we don't drill and burn this crude oil now, *I* won't benefit from it! Drill Drill Drill, Burn Burn Burn! It's MY crude oil and I want to BURN it NOW!"
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Re:Republican grandstanding (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you REALLY think that those "evil" oil companies just want to be mean to everyone and run rampant and pillage? They're out to make the most cost-effective dollar by drilling for oil.
Think about it this way - they AREN'T drilling on those leases because they WON'T make any money doing it....and I would trust their word on how much money they make off of oil than yours, unless you're some sort of petro-economic engineering expert.
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Unwashed Masses? (Score:5, Insightful)
"The point is that more drilling isn't a fix. More drilling in the US will provide a relatively small amount of oil which will delay our energy problems for months, maybe a few years at best."
More drilling alone isn't a fix by itself, but it's patently stupid and dishonest to say that more oil in the supply line won't help prices.
"The Republicans are putting on a show today because it looks good to the unwashed masses, but getting their drilling won't solve our energy problems."
I notice that, to liberals, when the issue is liberal and popular with Americans, then they're a great and wise people, righteous in their anger at the Republicans. But when the issue is conservative and supported by Americans, they're stupid unwashed masses.
If you were really concerned about us solving our energy problems, you'd actually let us solve them. We've got plenty of ways to do it... more drilling, more shale, more coal to gasoline, more nuclear... liberals just don't like those options. What you're really mad about is that we won't do it your way... with nothing but biofuels and electric cars.
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Re:A cheap and embarrassing Republican stunt (Score:5, Informative)
You didn't need to cheapen your post with the silly, biased commentary.
"It may work. If the Democrats did this, the media would be happy to portray them as whiny little losers who didn't know when to go home. (Which would basically be accurate.)
But since it's Republicans doing it, the media -- including Slashdot, in this case -- will find amusement in what the Dems "did" to the GOP."
Seriously? You think the media and slashdot have republican bias?
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Re:A cheap and embarrassing Republican stunt (Score:5, Insightful)
The Republicans are acting childish. It reminds me of what I would see in highschool when the teachers would strike -- but the Democrats are running away from the problems that need to be solved. It's their job, and it's not done yet, so they deserve no recess in August, no matter how long they've planned it. This isn't a retail job at Wal-mart where the company will be ok if one worker leaves for 6 weeks.
But after everything is said and done, after seeing at least 4 major laws passed that grossly violate the constitution in the last 2 weeks, it's almost a reprieve to see them out for a few weeks. The only reason I'm sure they don't use the constitution as toilet paper is because some of them would actually read if that were the case.
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Re:Protest (Score:5, Insightful)
The public is wrong. The price of crack has gone up and instead of trying to get off, they're demanding increased supply.
Yeah, that tends to happen in the House, where the majority tends to do whatever it wants. In the Senate, the minority has more rights. And your party has played the Senate rules and Harry Reid like a fiddle. Seriously and with no sarcasm, well done. If the Democrats had 1% of the balls your guys have, we'd have never been in Iraq. THAT would have kept oil prices down.
Mostly because the Democrats promised all sorts legislation on which they couldn't deliver. Again, your party has done a good job of using the Senate rules to keep popular Democratic bills from getting passed. Republicans know most people don't care (or even know) about cloture motions or other arcane parliamentary procedures. All your average person knows is that Democrats promised they'd fix everything the Republicans screwed up and they're not doing it.
I wish they had the balls to say that. The American people need to be told the score without any fluff. The age of cheap oil is over and it's going to take some sacrifice to get our economy switched over to renewables. We can't drill our way out of this even if we wanted to. India and China took our advice and liberalized their economies which made them a competitor for the same oil we are using.
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Dems are doing their jobs??? (Score:5, Insightful)
You are assuming that everyone is going to go hang out at their own 1000 acre ranch.
Congress adjourns BECAUSE we are a representative democracy. Most congressmen go to their home districts and then spend all their time meeting with the people (YOU) to better understand what you want and represent you better.
This is congress doing their job.
What really tells is how active Congress is when they are in session. This Congress has been very active even though all the important legislation has been vetoed. Personally I am looking forward to meeting with my representative (Jim Marshal D-Ga) without having to fly to Washington.
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