EBay Pressured To Block Sales of Ivory Products

RickRussellTX writes "eBay is being pressured by an animal welfare group to ban sales of ivory and animal tooth products on its site. Although eBay is in compliance with the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species when it warns users that such postings may be inviolation of national and international law, the International Fund for Animal Welfare is demanding that they go a step further to search for and delete any posting of ivory products."

Have these people never taken an economics course?

[R2.0 (532027)]

Where there is a demand, someone will supply, and a market will spring up. Perhaps eBay should get out on moral grounds, but if these folks think it will make a dent in the trade, they are naive.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[Stanistani (808333)]

Time for me to start re-selling Ivory Soap on eBay if they do. I love to help other folks train their word filters. Like the NSA. God is great, isn't he?

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[tsm_sf (545316)]

Or you could get a job like my friend Ji had, working in fiddles. He says it was the bomb.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[Stanistani (808333)]

I slam no fiddle makers. Peace be upon him.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[KDR_11k (778916)]

Yeah but black markets exist already and for many people the desire to possess such an item is not large enough to get involved with the black market.

Re:

[billcopc (196330)]

You make it sound like the "black market" is a dark hostile entity that requires one cut off their left pinky-toe and murder a man.

The black market is everywhere. You probably know someone, who knows someone, who knows where to get Ivory. Or heroin. Or modchips. Or unlocked phones. Or dishnet cards. Maybe you know a mechanic who does work on the side, in cash. That's black market too!

The black market is anything and everything that either sidesteps legal control, or evades taxes. It is a term create

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[Candid88 (1292486)]

So just because there's no magic bullet everyone should just let them do it unimpeded?

Same for drugs, kiddie-porn and nuke warhead sales?

With that mentality, why bother doing anything which isn't easily accomplished in one small step!

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[hostyle (773991)]

1. Profit!

Re:

[bsDaemon (87307)]

Neil Armstrong reached the moon in one small step. Seems to me that's all we really need...

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[poptones (653660)]

Where you gonna get a nuke warhead?

For the rest of your stupid argument - yes. Kiddie porn is already made, and drugs fall under "my body, my right."

Re:

[jimicus (737525)]

For the rest of your stupid argument - yes. Kiddie porn is already made, and drugs fall under "my body, my right."

At least until you wind up addicted and so far out of your mind you'll mug little old ladies to get your next fix.

Anyone who believes all these things should be legalised should live with a drug addict for 6 months. Believe me, it's not pretty.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[poptones (653660)]

|For the rest of your stupid argument - yes. Kiddie porn is already made, and drugs fall under "my body, my right."

At least until you wind up addicted and so far out of your mind you'll mug little old ladies to get your next fix.

Then I go to jail for mugging little old ladies. Problem solved.

Re:

[jimicus (737525)]

At least until you wind up addicted and so far out of your mind you'll mug little old ladies to get your next fix.

Then I go to jail for mugging little old ladies. Problem solved.

This solves the problem of you mugging little old ladies, but not the fundamental problem of what made you mug little old ladies in the first place.

The little old ladies don't like being mugged, and they tend to vote.

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[masterzora (871343)]

This solves the problem of you mugging little old ladies, but not the fundamental problem of what made you mug little old ladies in the first place.

Good point. Next we should outlaw poverty. If you fall below the poverty line, we arrest you so you won't mug little old ladies. I like where this one is going....

Re:

[bkr1_2k (237627)]

Right, because drug companies selling legal drugs are so good about keeping the prices down.

Seriously, there's more at issue than just the cost of the drugs.

Re:

[pi_rules (123171)]

Where you gonna get a nuke warhead?

ebay.ru?

Re:

[BrotherBeal (1100283)]

Isn't a "used nuclear weapon" a euphemism for "massive fireball hotter than the surface of the sun?" If so, one wonders how the shipping is handled...

Re:Have these people never taken an economics cour

[happyemoticon (543015)]

I'd say drug abuse definitely has a victim. In fact, anyone who's seen pictures of Amy Winehouse's skin condition has grounds to sue for emotional distress.

Re:

[PunkOfLinux (870955)]

... sigh...
Do you EVER listen to people?
A) there is more to gun ownership than killing people
B) outlawing guns will do NOTHING to ensure that the police will be better armed than whoever they're about to encounter. You know, the whole "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" thing.

Re:

[by Anonymous Coward]

Gun Control: The theory that 110 pound women should have to fistfight with 220 pound rapists.

That will work great

[oahazmatt (868057)]

That will work great for my new eBay listing...

African Elephant - tusks removed - contains 0% Ivory!

Re:

[Detritus (11846)]

Where can I get my free Mumia?

Pianos

[alexander_686 (957440)]

Well then - how am I going to sell my old piano then?

Re:

[morgan_greywolf (835522)]

a lot of pianos, even many old pianos, use plastic rather than ebony and ivory keys.

Even when ivory was legal everywhere to buy, it was very, very expensive; thus it wasn't used in many pianos once plastic keys were invented

Re:Pianos

[rivaldufus (634820)]

It depends on the age. The pianos I had growing up were quite old and all had Ivory veneer. As far as I know, the actual key mechanism is always wood, with the veneer... the same is usually true with modern pianos - wooden key with plastic veneer.

Even ignoring the fact that someone killed an elephant to get the ivory for the keys, I've always hated playing on ivory keys as they would break more easily than plastic.

Re:

[Myopic (18616)]

Wow that's weird. I read all the way down to your comment before I realized that the rest of you think ivory comes from elephants. Where I'm from, ivory comes from walruses.

Won't happen.

[snarfies (115214)]

Ebay does not give a crap, so long as they get their cut. Want proof? Go ahead and report any of the THOUSANDS of Taiwanese bootleg anime DVDs on Ebay and see if even one gets yanked.

I'll save you some time - they won't. Last time I tried (and this, I will confess, was almost a decade ago) I was told to provide proof that I was the copyright holder.

Are you kidding?

[Alaren (682568)]

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. But I don't think you have any standing to make complaints like that. Copyright infringement is generally a civil matter. If you think it reaches criminal levels, report it to the FBI for federal prosecution.

Second, I wish eBay actually stuck to that sort of behavior; when big companies demand takedowns, eBay often complies without verifying the complaint. In your case, they actually verified the complaint and (rightly) told you to go fly a kite.

Of course eBay wants their cut. They're a business. It's what businesses do. Policing every sale is not their job, and if they're going to open up a vast public marketplace, they have to presume their customers are following the terms of service unless and until they receive a legitimate complaint.

I know a lot of anime fans get really worked up about cheap pirated anime. It's a real problem. But I've had rabid fans demonstrate to me that something I thought was legitimate was in fact a bootleg because "there's too many episodes per disc" or "that's not the right box." That sort of intuitive filtering is not the same as establishing from a legal perspective that "this seller is illegitimate" or "that company doesn't have an actual license to produce those discs."

eBay should not get into the business of cancelling auctions based on some third-party's suspicions. The copyright owner can say definitively whether a particular DVD set is licensed or not. Not matter how big a fan you are, you do not actually have that capacity.

To tie this tangent back in--eBay should likewise not be in the business of cancelling ivory auctions because some third-party says without proof, "I don't think that's antique ivory."

So...

[Otter (3800)]

Reading the story, it doesn't seem like there's a single demonstrated case of illegal ivory sale on EBay, just a lot of numbers being thrown around about ivory sales overall.

Re:

[Otter (3800)]

The other curious thing is that the story claims (quoting the IFAW guy, I guess) that U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service permits are required for legal sales in the US and then goes on to to state that there are no such permits! It's surprising enough that the "expert" doesn't have even a basic understanding of the law, but you'd think the writer would at least go back and correct an earlier paragraph!

Re:

[Otter (3800)]

I have not checked for ivory but it would not be surprising if both statements were true.

Well, if you RTFA, the Fish and Wildlife Service guy states that permits are not required, in contrast to what both IFAW and EBay are saying.

Re:

[tzhuge (1031302)]

I don't think it's a Catch-22. It sounds more like grandfathering. You can only get the permit for ivory you already have prior to the ban, and I'm guessing you can sell that ivory w/ the permit. It's just that you can't get any new ivory fresh off the elephants.

Vintage items?

[jockeys (753885)]

The article is not 100% clear on whether an item must be older than 100 years or just older than the 1989 ban to still legally be sold.

Does anyone know?

I collect old straight razors, and have been looking to sell an old piano (not 100 years old, though) so the issue affects me personally.

Re:Vintage items?

[beadfulthings (975812)]

The convention among people who might be interested in ivory is that objects more than 50 years old are OK. You would most likely be both legally and morally in the clear with an old piano and antique razors. I would guess that nobody has manufactured straight razors with ivory handles in the past 50 years, and celluloid keys for pianos have also prevailed in that time frame. The problem comes with people who lie about the age of the ivory they're selling. (Incidentally, for people who might be interested in the "look and feel" of ivory without the slaughter, I'd strongly suggest a look at "vegetable ivory," or tagua. It is a nut-kernel product that actually has the look, feel, grain, and strength of the real stuff. It can be worked, carved, and shaped just like the real thing, and it lasts just as long. It's entirely renewable, and its harvest and preparation provide employment for people in several economically distressed areas of the world. Any amateur carvers or makers of jewelry would do well to investigate its excellent properties.)

Re:Vintage items?

[beadfulthings (975812)]

Hmm. I would never have guessed that, but I suppose the fifty-year rule could still apply. I buy a lot of beads, what with one thing and another, and I have a few observations. First, if everything billed as mammoth ivory were really mammoth ivory, the mammoths would never have become extinct. Second, I do not sell on Ebay and trust very little of what I buy there. I use it only for the very cheapest staple items, and I purchase trivial lots first when I'm checking out a seller. I'd never buy gemstone beads there, and there are precisely two sellers from whom I'll by vintage beads. So a healthy dose of skepticism can be your best friend. Finally, I collect vintage and new fountain pens. I guess that's similar to straight razors in some senses. While I've had a couple of stellar buys on Ebay, I regard that as "hobby money" and would not cry too hard if "stung." Still, I've found it's better to become involved with several groups of like-minded collectors. In smaller groups, it's easier to check out reputations, etc. For these purposes, something like Yahoo can turn out to be a good starting point; if you're collecting it, chances are there's a group of people into the same thing. That can serve as as a connecting point to other groups and to reputable buyers and sellers. (I suggest Yahoo because many collectors aren't especially technical and find it easiest to use.) It's also possible, within a good group, to gain reliable knowledge about things like Germany's ivory laws.

Ebayny and Ivory...

[Rastignac (1014569)]

...Live together in perfect harmony.

(let's sing together !)

The more serious issue

[RickRussellTX (755670)]

(Disclaimer: I'm the OP.)

The issue that bothers me, and it has nothing to do with elephants or ivory, is that eBay is merely a silent broker in these transactions. Could you realistically expect the relevant carriers of information to ban exchanges of ivory arranged over e-mail? Over postal mail? The telephone? At swap meets?

eBay has built the smoothest, most liquid, easiest-to-use method of arranging private sales between geographically disparate private parties. That results in transaction volume that far exceeds the capability of any single person to review it (and read TFA and you'll see that even IFAW built its statistics by doing the most basic text searches -- they didn't actually try to verify anything).

Organizations that like to tell people what to do and get themselves in the news, like the IFAW, hate such liquid markets. They want all transactions involving their particular interest to be monitored, filtered, verified, etc. Even though they are not willing to do it themselves.

So if we monitor, filter, and verify transactions involving ivory, where do we stop? Do we ever stop? Does private enterprise go away and get replaced by "monitored and certified enterprise"?

Re:The more serious issue

[0xdeadbeef (28836)]

Ebay's own list of prohibited and restricted items [ebay.com]:

* Adult Material (see Mature Audiences)
* Alcohol (see also Wine)
* Animals and Wildlife Products - examples include live animals, mounted specimens, and ivory
* Art
* Artifacts - examples include Native American crafts, cave formations, and grave-related items
* Catalytic Converters and Test Pipes
* Cell Phone (Wireless) Service Contracts
* Charity or Fundraising Listings
* Clothing, Used
* Coins
* Contracts
* Cosmetics, Used
* Counterfeit Currency and Stamps
* Credit Cards
* Drugs & Drug Paraphernalia
* Drugs, Describing Drugs or Drug-like Substances
* Electronics Equipment - examples include cable TV de-scramblers, radar scanners, and traffic signal control devices
* Electronic Surveillance Equipment - examples include wiretapping devices, and telephone bugging devices
* Embargoed Goods and Prohibited Countries - examples include items from Cuba
* Event Tickets
* Firearms, Weapons and Knives - examples include pepper spray, replicas and stun guns
* Food
* Gift Cards
* Government and Transit Documents
* Government and Transit Uniforms
* Government IDs and Licenses
* Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Items - examples include batteries, fireworks, and Freon
* Human Parts and Remains
* Importation of Goods into the United States - examples include CDs that were intended only for distribution in a certain country
* International Trading
* Items Encouraging Illegal Activity - examples include an eBook describing how to create methamphetamine
* Lockpicking Devices
* Lottery Tickets
* Mailing Lists and Personal Information
* Manufacturers' Coupons
* Mature Audiences
* Medical Devices - examples include contact lenses, pacemakers, and surgical instruments
* Multi-level Marketing, Pyramid and Matrix Programs
* Offensive Material - examples include ethnically or racially offensive material and Nazi memorabilia
* Pesticides
* Plants (see Weeds and Seeds)
* Police-Related Items
* Political Memorabilia
* Postage Meters
* Prescription Drugs
* Prohibited Services
* Real Estate
* Recalled Items
* Slot Machines
* Stamps
* Stocks and Other Securities
* Stolen Property and Property with Removed Serial Numbers
* Surveillance Equipment
* Teacher's Edition Textbooks

They're just trolling.

[Shotgun (30919)]

The International Fund for Animal Welfare is just trolling for attention. It's a tried and true technique. Attack a large and popular entity and charge them with the responsibility of handling your pet project to save the world.

How about this "International Fund for Animal Welfare"? Instead of bitching real loud, how about you bid for the ivory, then tell the sellers that you will pick it up. Show up at the seller's door with law enforcement.

Oh, I see. That doesn't get you free advertisement for your fund raising efforts.

Poaching is a myth; elephants died of impaction

[Reziac (43301)]

Several decades back, one of the major animal control agencies in Africa investigated the issue of ivory poaching -- and to their own astonishment, discovered it was entirely a myth. Poaching simply wasn't happening.

And they discovered that those huge "elephant graveyards" had another cause entirely.

Elephants are grazers, NOT browsers. This means they eat, and are designed to eat, GRASSES. They are NOT designed to eat shoots and twigs, nor can they digest that much cellulose.

The elephants found dead in thos

eBay Needs a Competitor

[Nom du Keyboard (633989)]

eBay needs a competitor who is willing to sell all the things eBay won't (lawfully acquired ivory, concert and sporting tickets of all types, legal second-hand copies of AutoCad, Scientology e-meters), along with everything else. Also one who takes payments other than PayPal. Someone like that ought to eventually eat eBay's lunch.

Elephant Farms

[Quiet_Desperation (858215)]

Why don't some of the countries in the area just breed elephants on farms as a livestock animal? You get the ivory as a valuable export. You get the meat to feed your people. You pull elephants way back from the brink of extinction. And so on.

Re:

[Morris Thorpe (762715)]

I by no means toe the politically correct line but....you are either ignorant or heartless.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0703/sights_n_sounds/ [nationalgeographic.com]

Re:Boo Hoo

[bigstrat2003 (1058574)]

you are either ignorant or heartless.

Not caring about an issue is not the same as heartlessness. I don't give a flying fsck about the plight of the elephants, but I'm about as far from heartless as they come. Everyone has some things they don't care about, that doesn't make them bad people.

Re:It's Forbidden Everywhere else

[Z34107 (925136)]

They're not exempted from this - I haven't read the article yet (of course) but it says ebay follows all of the laws.

This group wants them to go not sell any Ivory - no antiques, pianos, etc. Nothing. Even if it's perfectly legal.

Next will be any fur and leather products. Stay tuned!

Re:It's Forbidden Everywhere else

[Bayoudegradeable (1003768)]

Not going for flamebait here... What if I have a pair of antique ivory chopsticks bought a long, long time ago and I wish to sell them on eBay to a U.S. customer? That is legal, correct? So why punish all of us wishing to use eBay for legal purposes? Wait, I can get drugs, prostitutes and many other illegal goods and services, so shut the whole thing down? Stopping people from legitimate uses in order to halt illegal ones seems to be a slippery slope. I am actually all for stopping modern trade in modern ivory, but to ban something the law allows sounds like censorship to appease a cause.

Re:I'll skip to the end to save you some time

[WK2 (1072560)]

"Ebay isn't interested in policing the existing business"

That's not true. eBay bans stuff on its site all the time. Like MMORPG gold. And that's legal everywhere. Before you can decide whether or not eBay will choose to ban ivory, you need to figure out what criteria eBay uses to ban stuff.

In the case of MMORPG gold, it was because large corporations wanted them too (and probably paid them). If people with a lot of power ask them to ban ivory, they might do it. You're right about the little people though. eBay doesn't care about them.

Re:I'll skip to the end to save you some time

[Dancindan84 (1056246)]

You're right about the little people though. eBay doesn't care about them.

Nope, you can sell as many midgets as you want.

Re:I'll skip to the end to save you some time

[nurb432 (527695)]

They restrict weapon sales too, which are *totally* legal if done according to the state/federal rules.

Re:

[couchslug (175151)]

If people genuinely wanted to reduce trade in endangered species they'd support devaluing the products by ranching and harvesting the species instead.

Domestic cows aren't hunted to extinction.