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Germany Seeks Expansion of Computer Spying

Posted by Zonk on Wed Oct 31, 2007 04:22 PM
from the government-in-your-pocket-on-your-laptop-on-your-hard-drive dept.
Privacy Government Security Politics
gooman writes "The LA Times reports on a proposal to secretly scan suspects' hard drives which is causing unease in a nation with a history of official surveillance. Along with several other European countries, Germany is seeking authority to plant secret Trojan viruses into the computers of suspects that could scan files, photos, diagrams and voice recordings, record every keystroke typed and possibly even turn on webcams and microphones in an attempt to gain knowledge of attacks before they happen."
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Submission: Germany Seeks Expansion of Computer Spying by gooman (709147)
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  • You hear a lot of stories on sites these days about the USA turning into a police state, but I think the UK (all those CCTVs) and I guess now Germany are really kicking our butts in that department lately.
    • Yes, Airstrip One is proudly ahead of the rest of Oceania. The US is many orders of magnitude freer than the UK.

      The UK government is probably already doing this, who needs democratic authority in a country where citizens have no right to free speech. And most are too drunk or hungover to think clearly enough to exercise that right on any given day. Seriously, if you know what's good for you, stay away from Britain. V for Vendetta may yet turn out to be a documentary.

      Incidentally, I'd be interested in

    • Whoever gets there first loses (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Scrameustache (459504) on Wednesday October 31 2007, @06:13PM (#21190247) Homepage Journal

      You hear a lot of stories on sites these days about the USA turning into a police state, but I think the UK (all those CCTVs) and I guess now Germany are really kicking our butts in that department lately.
      Ya know, it's not supposed to be a race!
    • Europe is at least eight years behind the USA on this one. The FBI been installing spyware in people's machines since at least 1999 and a judge ruled it was Ok to do so in 2001.

      See: http://www.wired.com/politics/security/news/2002/01/49455 [wired.com]

      (Or google for something like "scarfo keylogger")

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by zehoo (1168809)
      Apparently the best way to protect our freedom is to spend a lot of money taking it away. ^^
      • Oh so you're police state has the force of law behind it making it nearly impossible to stop and all we need is the dems to grow a pair to stop out state?

      • Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) on Wednesday October 31 2007, @04:58PM (#21189487)

        I don't know who "we" is for you, but here in the UK, it's official in name only: most of the laws being passed today that affect me are either coming from Europe (where the Commission I don't get a say in electing trump the Parliament I do), Gordon Brown and his administration (who were never elected and have no legitimate mandate whatsoever), or my local County Council (who are imposing very unpopular measures on my city — which gets represented by only a few seats on the County Council — in direct conflict with the City Council).

        In other words, I haven't even had a chance to vote either for or against any of the three major levels of government that can make "official" rules that affect me today. They may be official on pretty headed paper, but they've no more ethical basis than a third world dictator.

        However, for the first time today, senior figures in a credible opposition party started talking openly about mass civil disobedience in protest against one of these heavy-handed laws imposed by a government with little popular support. There is yet hope...

          • Quoth the AC:

            You elected the party, Brown leads it now. Deal with it.

            Why should I? Here's some electoral facts for you, from the 2005 general election:

            • Labour received only 1/3 or so of the votes, which corresponds to only 22% of the total electorate. Despite this, Labour holds an absolute majority in Parliament and by a substantial margin.
            • Labour lost the popular vote in England to the Conservatives. Despite this, Labour currently has 286 MPs for English constituencies, while the Conservatives have only 194 (and the incidental changes since the general ele

  • nothing new... (Score:5, Funny)

    by User 956 (568564) on Wednesday October 31 2007, @04:24PM (#21189055) Homepage
    Germany is seeking authority to plant secret Trojan viruses into the computers of suspects that could scan files, photos, diagrams and voice recordings, record every keystroke typed

    We already have something like that in America. It's called Geek Squad.

  • Mandated use of Windows? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by whoever57 (658626) on Wednesday October 31 2007, @04:25PM (#21189057) Journal
    Next they will be mandating the use of Windows because their trojan does not work on Macs and Linux. I can just imagine getting a letter: "Dear Suspect, in order to secretly monitor your computer use, we require..."
  • sign these papers!
    what do the papers say?
    they say that we have treated you well.
    i cannot sign the papers
    why not?
    you have broken all my fingers
      • Thanks! I had a friend who used to quote it all the time. This was years ago- and I never knew where it came from. That's totally cool.

  • Talk about spyware! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by RyanFenton (230700) on Wednesday October 31 2007, @04:27PM (#21189091)
    If this doesn't convince anyone who'd be considered 'suspicious' online in Germany to load up on spyware prevention-and-detection tools (assuming they're using Windows), I don't know what will.

    It'll be interesting to see if some future mandatory German tax software might have a list of 'incompatible software' that it will kindly uninstall for you in future tax seasons.

    Ryan Fenton
    • I would actually start questioning spyware prevention-and-detection tools made or sold in Germany too. I mean would that make you implicit or something if your software helped disable the states software. Maybe implicit is the wrong word, aiding and abetting, conspiracy something sounds like it would belong?

  • The Constitution (Score:4, Funny)

    by ArcherB (796902) * on Wednesday October 31 2007, @04:29PM (#21189107) Journal
    How dare these Germans! Don't they know that wiretapping is against the Constitution!??!
  • FTFA:Berlin-based hacker organization the Chaos Computer Club, which has pledged to find and publicize the first government Trojan.

    I hope hacker organizations around the World all do the same, and if possible, do it for folks who live in countries where such activity will get them killed. *ahem*Chine*ahem*

    • 1. It will not be a Trojan. I will be part of Windows Genuine Advantage!
      2. It will not be a Trojan. It is a feature.
      3. Hello Windows SP3 and Vista SP1. And you all wondered what was taking them so long.

      This is one of those "feel" good ideas that will only work for the dumbest of criminals. Might catch some kiddie porn collectors but I doubt that it will catch many serious terrorists. But then maybe they are all using Windows.
    • I don't think creating a hack to block stuff like this will have any more effect than the actual software itself. I think any trojan will still be semi-effective, just not against anyone who is actually dangerous.

      This kind of thing just isn't that hard to avoid. Trojans do work, but generally only against people who are sloppy, or do not have the skills or interest to correctly handle their computer. I have wiped viruses repeatedly off my 70 year old step mother's computer for instance. She repetitively
      • They might get some of them. I'm willing to be that if they so, we would be the last to know about it. They will sit on anything until the very last minute on anyone seeming to payoff in this regard in order to collect as much information as possible and not tip higher up terrorist off that their plans may be in jeopardy.

        I would even think they might let a couple people die before busting them in order to save more people if possible. I know I would, kind of like shooting a hijacked airliner down over a fie

  • When will Europe learn? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ObiWanStevobi (1030352) on Wednesday October 31 2007, @04:32PM (#21189161) Journal

    In America, the government just does things like this, hoping it stays a secret. If it is found out, you smear anyone who is upset as anti-American. If there are hearings on it, you get amnesia and claim executive priveledge. Eventaully, a congressman will have sex with something, or somewhere, he isn't supposed to, and everyone forgets.

    Really, it's a wonderful system we have here.

    • Re:When will Europe learn? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by geeknado (1117395) on Wednesday October 31 2007, @04:44PM (#21189317)
      I actually think the fact that this could potentially be done /without/ secrecy more worrisome. Keeping secrets generally implies an acknowledgement by the government that the populace will not be pleased if they discover the reality of the situation. In fact, this has actually been the case. There're wire tapping apologists, certainly, but there're reasons that the Shrub's approval rating is so low, and that program is one of them.

      My point is, concealing the facts generally implies that there is some fear of the popular reaction. A country in which the government /doesn't/ fear the backlash from such invasive techniques is a far scarier place to live, IMO.

      • A good point. At least here you have to say something like "It's for the children" or "The terrorists will win if we don't" before we pass a law that would allow this. Otherwise no one would think it was a good idea.

      • Re:When will Europe learn? (Score:5, Informative)

        by NorQue (1000887) on Wednesday October 31 2007, @04:54PM (#21189433)

        My point is, concealing the facts generally implies that there is some fear of the popular reaction.
        Remember the reaction on warrantless wiretapping in the USA? Well, me neither, as there was no noteworthy public reaction. At least here in Germany there are public protests against these laws. Latest one got 15000 attendants. And you see the picture of the politician behind the "Bundestrojaner", Wolfgang Schäuble, together with the signature "STASI 2.0" [dataloo.de] in a lot of places nowadays. http://erklaerung.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/ [vorratsdat...cherung.de]

  • Mmmhm (Score:4, Interesting)

    by rrohbeck (944847) on Wednesday October 31 2007, @04:38PM (#21189221)
    Imagine a back door, vulnerability or leaked/cracked private key in one of those.

    Given governments' competence in such matters that's just a matter of time.
  • Isn't this the country which is going to utilize the Open Document Format? Now they are proposing to spy on computers. What if I issue the command "make buildworld". Are they goin to reinfect my BSD system? Are they even going to try to compromise Linux and BSD? What about live filesystems like Knoppix. How the hell are they going to infect your CD?
    • with a SHARPIE!

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      This whole idea is mainly pushed by the interior minister Wolfgang Schäuble, who probably has about as much clue about computers as your Ted "series-of-tubes" Stevens.
      Linux? Never heard of it.
      Don't expect that those proposals even remotely make sense. If somebody where to tell them it won't work, they would answer "then make it work".

      Besides, that guy is really paranoid, perhaps because he was shot years ago. He's definitely on the "or the terrorists win" train.
  • So will they come up with an 'approved' list of software ( and hardware ) that you are allowed to possess. Anything else would make you a terrorist.

    Better hide those Ataris and Amigas !
    • What about small embedded computers?
      My WRT-54GL [wikipedia.org] runs a variant of Linux (Tomato Firmware [polarcloud.com], to be exact), and definitely couldn't run Windows. Or are they going to provide hacked versions of all of the ROMs for routers and other small computers?

      Some Routers can use external hard drives, so they could hold potential "terrorist" stuff.

  • Legal to Protect Against (Score:4, Interesting)

    by moore.dustin (942289) on Wednesday October 31 2007, @04:41PM (#21189271)
    Is it going to be legal to protect yourself from these? Assuming they are found, dissected, and something is available to block or corrupt their program, would it not be classified as malware and thus, completely legal to protect against.

    As for the reliability of the information gathered: Is information gathered in this way admissible? It would seem that there are to many potential snags with this that it would never be able to be relied upon by itself.
  • than give up my rights.

  • Mission Creep is the Worry (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MrSteveSD (801820) on Wednesday October 31 2007, @05:21PM (#21189731)
    Whenever governments want some new power, the major threat is nearly always "Mission Creep". They start off by saying that the new measures will only apply to terror suspects (or whatever) and things will have to be approved etc. A year or so down the line though, once people are used to it, they extend things a little. Then a while later, they do it again. Before you know it, you can end up with a real big brother situation.

    An example of this is the criminal genetic database in the UK. Initially it was only for convicted criminals, but there has been mission creep for years and they now keep huge amounts of genetic data, even from people who are completely innocent.

  • Fearmongering, anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gillbates (106458) on Wednesday October 31 2007, @05:39PM (#21189911) Homepage Journal

    A terrorist attack with nuclear weapons is certain. The question is no longer whether such an attack could be carried out by terrorists, but when," Schaeuble told the Frankfurter Allgemeine newspaper in September.[emphasis added]

    If the attack is so certain, why haven't we arrested the terrorist(s)? Which is more likely:

    • The terrorists have already acquired nuclear weapons, know how to detonate them, and are simply biding their time (Osama on vacation?!), or
    • There hasn't been a terrorist nuclear attack because the terrorists haven't been able to acquire a nuclear weapon, don't know how to detonate it, or they're all interned in Guantanamo or elsewhere.

    Fearmongering for personal political gain only detracts from the real issues surrounding terrorism. You know, things like:

    1. The most successful terrorism investigations have involved regular, old-fashioned police work.
    2. The 9/11 terrorists all had valid ID's.
    3. The violations of human rights and common dignity brought about in the name of combating terrorism.
    4. The inability of torture to actually produce usable intelligence, not to mention the moral and ethical dilemnas surrounding it.
    5. The difficulty of stemming the tide of new terrorist recruits when combating terrorism with military tactics.
    6. The moral dilemna of shifting the fight over terrorism to third world countries with no prior history of supporting terrorism.
    7. The Constitutional dilemna of summarily denying rights to an entire class of people by allowing the Justice Department to arbitrarily reclassify their status from "enemy combatant" to "unlawful combatant".
    8. The military dilemna of the United States violation of the Geneva convention in the prosecution of the "War on Terror".
    9. The political dilemna of power seizure by the executive branch made possible by informal declarations of war on concepts and ideas, rather than actual enemies.

    Instead of responding to goons like this, we should instead focus on the fact that other law enforcement officials have been able to conduct successful terrorism investigations without resorting to devices such as these.

  • A government reserves certain rights for itself. They can do things that others can't. For instance, the state can take a life in circumstances that if it were performed by a citizen would be murder. The police can use methods that would be unlawful if a private citizen did them. Even the city water department can assert authority that a non-government authority would never be able to.

    For the most part we citizens are aware of the rules that we live under. This is no different in Iran than it is in the
  • The headline makes it sound as if the German government is going to mandate all users turn over their hard drives, or that the government is going to force all citizens to install trojans. It makes a good headline, but the story is much less interesting:

    "Now, along with several other European countries, Germany is seeking authority to plant secret Trojan viruses into the computers of suspects..."

    Don't they already have this authority? Is there anyone in the world who doesn't have this "authority"?

    Wh

  • "What this case showed us is that they are using laptops, they are using computers, and it would have been very, very helpful to track them down with online searches," said Gerhard Schindler, director of the German Interior Ministry's counter-terrorism bureau.

    • May I know how exactly they are going to get through my OpenBSD firewall and implant a trojan on my FreeBSD desktop? I'm a bit confused...
      What makes you think they haven't already?

      And, once you've answered that, Are you sure?

        • What about those that run OpenBSD/sparc4 and Linux/PPC?
          That's easy. Open source the trojan. If the problem is the platform, it's just a simple recompile. If the problem is the OS, then the community will port it for you.

        • Re:Please (Score:4, Insightful)

          by MightyMartian (840721) on Wednesday October 31 2007, @05:58PM (#21190121) Journal
          The point behind even publicly announcing such a plan is that it makes those who the German government plans on targeting fearful. Even if the ability of the German police or whoever is going to be responsible for this program can only hope to directly monitor a fraction of those that they would like, the strategy is to make Big Brother front and center in the eyes of the German people.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by zeromorph (1009305)

      They will come through you house door, not your firewall and install it manually. (At least that's what the police says, the politicians maunder about attachments and the like.) But, whether it will be platform independent and thus run on your FreeBSD Desktop is an unanswered question.

      When you strip off all that crackhead talk of the politicians, the police wants a mean to bug your computer just like your phone. It is technically feasible and not crazy. But as far as I am concerned it's politically wrong

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by rubies (962985)
      Running Linux will simply make you a greater suspect - in the current environment, you obviously must have something to hide.
      • Fred Palnicki. Famous slashdotter, died in the middle of an epic raid with his wow guild. His guildmates try to honor him here, whenever they get the chance.

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