Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Slashdot Log In

Log In

Create Account  |  Retrieve Password

Municipal Wi-Fi - A Promise Unfulfilled?

Posted by Zonk on Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:43 PM
from the problematic-adoption dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Jeff Merron at InformationWeek writes about the problems with municipal Wi-Fi, and how despite the high hopes of cities across the country there hasn't been much success deploying it in reality. He also examines the few successful applications of the technology, and tries to explore why more projects don't make it out of their infancy. 'Thus far, there have been a few true municipal Wi-Fi success stories and several spectacular failures. But more than half of municipal Wi-Fi networks remain only in the planning stages. The broad consensus among analysts and providers is that the only viable business models will be centered around municipal government applications, which appear to be able to provide cities with the ability to provide both better and more cost-efficient services for residents and increase city revenue. This will ensure that providers like EarthLink can recoup their capital costs within a few years.'"
+ -
story

Related Stories

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    "Oh shit, this costs a lot of money and we really don't get anything out of it. PROJECT CANCELED."
    • Or the problem is power, specifically lack thereof. In St. Louis, they were going to mount and power the APs on light poles. The problem was that the power was not on during the day.

      The project has been basically canceled, or scaled down [mlive.com].

    • Yepp. WiFi everywhere just isn't needed. It isn't an essential service. If you want city workers to have network access every where say for the police then data cards and a data plan from a cell company will be cheaper. If you want to provide access to the citizens then Hot Spots at community centers, libraries, and parks will get you 90% of the benefit for 5% of the cost. WiMax may change the cost benefit ratio but right now it costs a lot of money and provides very little benefit.

      • If you want to provide access to the citizens then Hot Spots at community centers, libraries, and parks will get you 90% of the benefit for 5% of the cost.

        I strongly disagree. The difference between access when I bring my laptop to the park or library and access in my home and every other place in the area with a laptop or desktop; is enormous. Free wi-fi can replace existing internet access packages from local duopoly. I currently pay Comcast about $45 a month for internet access and I have to deal with their constant outages, outright blocking of VPN traffic to work (I have to SSH tunnel instead), and poor customer service. They are the most affordable op

  • by TechyImmigrant (175943) * on Tuesday November 06 2007, @12:51PM (#21256611) Journal
    802.11 was designed for indoor use. Read the spec. It talks about indoor propagation and describes a coordination function that works well with that model.

    802.11 doesn't scale well to large footprint cells or high density deployments with lots of APs and clients. It excels indoors allowing a small number of people to attached wirelessly to a wired network.

    The backhaul services are not standardized in 802.11 and so are generally neither interoperable not secure (E.G. UAM at airports).

    Compare with 802.16. It is designed for outdoor base stations, large footprints, indoor, outdoor or mobile clients and has a backhaul architecture and protocol set defined by the WiMAX forum.

    802.11 Municipal WiFi is a round technology crowbarred into a square application.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      But then the problem arises (and please correct me if I'm wrong) of users not having the correct hardware to connect to the better WiFi standards. My university has done a fairly good job maintaining a 802.11g network that services thousands of us at a time with little trouble, and plenty of people connect with plain-ol' wireless B. I know the university paid a lot for that, though, which is probably more than most municipalities are willing to pay per block.
      • > But then the problem arises (and please correct me if I'm wrong) of users not having the correct hardware to connect to the better WiFi standards. My university has done a fairly good job maintaining a 802.11g network that services thousands of us at a time with little trouble, and plenty of people connect with plain-ol' wireless B. I know the university paid a lot for that, though, which is probably more than most municipalities are willing to pay per block.

        Yes. The CCK and OFDM in 2.4GHz PHYs work we
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        Your university also has high population density and maybe less than universal coverage. Can you get WiFi in the parking lots and the sports fields? 802.11 is inherently a short range technology. Building any kind of municipal size network out of it will be expensive especially with the low population densities of most sprawling US cities.
  • Fred e Zone (Score:4, Informative)

    by Fr05t (69968) on Tuesday November 06 2007, @12:53PM (#21256631)
    http://www.fred-ezone.com/ [fred-ezone.com]
    Fredericton has had Wi-Fi rolled out for a couple years now. The status is degraded because we just got hit by tropical storm Noel.
  • Until towns/cities can do this at a reasonable cost, and until providers can actually make a buck off it, I wouldn't expect to see widespread success at public Wi-Fi projects.
    • by ShieldW0lf (601553) on Tuesday November 06 2007, @01:04PM (#21256741) Journal
      Towns and cities can do this easily. It's so easy that it's trivial.

      It's so easy that people deployed it themselves in disaster relief scenarios despite opposition from the government, rebellious little municipalities with practically no budget deployed it themselves, hell, soldiers are able to drop a bunch of little scurrying robots and set up a wireless mesh network in a blasted urban war zone.

      The technology renders large amounts of infrastructure obsolete, turns the technology into a piece of infrastructure no different from roads and sewage, and makes some very profitable businesses defunct.

      This is why established businesses oppose it and politicians are paid to prevent it. That's pretty much the sum of it.
      • by postbigbang (761081) on Tuesday November 06 2007, @01:45PM (#21257357)
        Although we'll agree that politicians are in the bag of telcos, there are real and factual difficulties with muni-WiFi

        1) bad cellular support grid (3 non-interfering channels, making coverage very difficult)
        2) competition with other wireless, paid services (UMTS, EVDO, etc)
        3) competition from commercial 'hotspot' providers (hotels, paid-hotspots, etc.)
        4) poor business models that caved Google, Earthlink, and others
        5) the silliness of using a LAN technology (look at the specs as mentioned up-thread) for a MAN/WAN purpose, as the CSMA/CA technology plainly sucks for services that require mulitple concurrent low-latency streams from a single AP)
        6) non-existent subnet handoff (all solutions are proprietary, so far), and lack of VLAN wizardry
        7) super-dumb security-- as in NONE as there are no encryption schemes, poor to no authentication (too expensive) and no session controls

        Plainly, muni-Wifi is a great idea, if WiFi itself worked, and if there were business models to sustain its deployment. It's a misapplication of the technology, politicians aside. We're just not there yet in terms of building meshes that provide excellent or in many cases, just minimally usable coverage.
  • by iamacat (583406) on Tuesday November 06 2007, @12:53PM (#21256641)
    What's going to happen to all the well-digging companies? After all, just like with a wireless base station, one pipe can be shared by at least a dozen users.
    • This is the idea that I keep getting back to if I think about the ISPs enough: the Internet should be thought of as infrastructure. It's comparable to roads, water, and electricity. For many reasons (including various humanitarian and economic reasons), we want a robust infrastructure in our country that is efficient and maintained well enough that the general citizenry can take it for granted. Yes, there are some people who live out in the middle of nowhere without water, electicity or roads, but most people in most places are able to simply expect that those things will exist and work.

      The implimentation is different in different places and for different sorts of infrastructure. I pay a private company for electricity. I don't pay to drive on roads, but I do pay tolls for some bridges. There's still some wiggle-room for how the whole internet thing happens, but it needs to happen in such a way that the gross majority of people receive acceptable access at a reasonable price.

      • the Internet should be thought of as infrastructure. It's comparable to roads, water, and electricity.

        Funny enough, it's even more comparable to telephone and cable, and yet those aren't considered public utilities.

        'course, that's not to say I disagree with you, but your analogy is, I think, far from apt. There are many reasons why one might want to socialize internet access, but it's hardly a vital utility that isn't easily managed by disparate private entities, as is the case with roads, water, and elect
        • The telephone company cannot legally deny you free 911 service.

          Of course I'm not sure what the equivalent of a 911 call on the internet is.

          Though, I believed the lines and content should be provided by two different companies and the company that owns the lines be a well regulated non-profit company devoted to giving everyone the ability to have internet. If they want it, they'll have to pay for it between competing content providers etc etc.
    • What's going to happen to all the well-digging companies?

      The well-digging companies are coining money. But they are doing it in places where there is a shortage of water.

  • by LM741N (258038) on Tuesday November 06 2007, @12:53PM (#21256643)
    I don't know about any other cities, but in Portland Oregon the municipal wifi was billed as ,wonderful system that would provide everyone with free broadband. Well if you can log in to the system, you find all sorts or limitations- and something else- that there is a parallel pay Wifi system run by the same company. Gee, wonder how that happened? I never heard any public discussion on the matter. And I wonder how much Portland paid for this sweet deal?
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      Maybe it's time to stop believing politicians when they promise free wifi, or for that matter, free anything?
    • Well as I understand the deal, they paid nothing (theoretically). They give Metro-Fi access to public buildings and other fixed points (like like light posts, power poles, etc), in return the city gets a guaranteed amount of bandwidth and QoS on the network for Police, Fire, etc use.

      I am curious about your problems. I admit that public wi-fi is a YMMV kinda think, but I have had no real problems. It's faster than my EVDO Phone (which I can bridge to my laptop). Find a place to sit, connect, and I am in.
      • Bandwidth for police/fire? You've got to be kidding. They paid a zillion dollars of our tax money for that Motorola trunked radio system. They damn well have it working right.

        And the last thing I want when I dial 911 is for that WiFi system to be in the loop. May as well drive to the ER. (or shoot the intruder, lol) I am unable to connect much of the time and I am right in the heart of the system. Plus it won't start up with Firefox. I can only get it to work with IE. I'm not certain what or if a
        • Well as I understand it, it is for additional data services, and remember that "etc" well there is a lot the potentially a lot of other municipal services that would be able to take advantage of it. But I dunno as opposed to just taking word of some random guy on /. and then getting angry and then start wildly speculating, you could -- I dunno -- just google a little. Oh but what am I saying this is /.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      Brookline, MA (a smaller town bordering Boston) has it, border-to-border. It's available for free in parks and public areas; from homes it has a subscription fee.

      http://www.brooklinewireless.com/ [brooklinewireless.com]
  • My fair city [wikipedia.org] recently fell for this kind of scam. 802.11x is basically the absolute worst wireless spec to try and deploy over any area larger than a medium-sized house. Massive interference; everything from cordless phones to microwave ovens. Leaves destroy 90% of the signal. Leaves with fresh rain on them completely destroy even multipath.

    Our city tried so that it could attract high-tech workers. They were gunning for a "revolutionary" wireless deployment using IP6 so they could do multicast groups w
    • Why protect the advisor? You're obviously (and justifiably) upset about the waste and unfulfilled promise. It would be interesting if you had the time to Freedom Of Information request or otherwise dig up what the public record was and what advice the city received.

      At the very best, you help another deployment avoid the same mistake. At worst, someone is embarrassed (big deal.. that shouldn't trump the truth).

      My hometown Nashua NH was supposed to do downtown wifi. I think it was killed when Verizon cried to
  • Get this:

    Westminster, in London, is installing Wi-Fi-enabled security cameras that can identify illegally parked cars and issue tickets without an on-site witness. In theory, the number of parking tickets should increase dramatically without much additional cost, and city coffers will swell. "Parking enforcement is the killer application that everyone is looking for," a Westminster City Council member said in early September.
    What's next? Automated ticketing for jaywalking? For picking your nose in public?

    As my sainted grandmother would say, "Bad cess to them!"
    • Moral Statute Machine: PHAEDRU5's grandmother, you are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute.

      Moral Statute Machine: Your repeated violation of the Verbal Morality Statute, code 777, has caused me to notify the San Angeles^W^W Westminster Police Department. Please remain where you are for your reprimand.
    • Wi-Fi-enabled security cameras that can identify illegally parked cars and issue tickets without an on-site witness

      The current system is based on random luck. You don't feed the meter and maybe you're lucky, or maybe you aren't and you have a ticket. If you change to a system where every violator always pays, you're back to a fair system (especially if police aren't allowed to undo tickets for their friends). And with all this new revenue, you can decrease the fines so they don't become an unfair burden

    • Westminster, in London, is installing Wi-Fi-enabled security cameras that can identify illegally parked cars and issue tickets without an on-site witness.
      What's next? Automated ticketing for jaywalking? For picking your nose in public?
      What's next?

      A huge increase in the sales of Wi-Fi jammers.
    • Get this:

      Westminster, in London, is installing Wi-Fi-enabled security cameras that can identify illegally parked cars and issue tickets without an on-site witness. In theory, the number of parking tickets should increase dramatically without much additional cost, and city coffers will swell.

      ...and all it would take is one torqued off geek with a parking ticket, a soldering iron, and some spare electronics parts.

      Then the revolution begins.

      /P

  • So how does anyone think they can manage to cover a larger area. In many airports it is expensive, and thus useless to me.
  • broadband access (Score:5, Interesting)

    by xzvf (924443) on Tuesday November 06 2007, @01:26PM (#21257045)
    The question we need to ask is if broadband access is required utility that is needed by everyone for economic development but isn't cost effective for private business. Should it be supplemented like roads, buses, trains and run by the government? Should it be a regulated monopoly like gas, water and electric? Non-profit co-op like some other utilities? Heavily regulated private business like airlines and railroads? Or remain what it is now.. unregulated and private?
    • Should it be supplemented like roads, buses, trains and run by the government?
      Yes, in that the government builds the roads and then allows private entities to provide services on the roads. The government should own the infrastructure and nothing more.
  • Municipal != Free (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 06 2007, @01:27PM (#21257059)
    Municipal Water isn't free.

    Municipal Energy isn't free.

    Municipal Waste Disposal isn't free.

    Municipal Newtwork Service... where did anyone get the idea it should be free?
    • It's the new "Free".

      Free as in Beer.
      Free as in Speech.

      Free as in Taxpayer-Subsidized.
    • No, but they are well regulated and access is guaranteed.

      Actually, if you live in Philadelphia you already pay an income tax whether you like it or not. At least trash pickup is free. Water is cheap as well as gas and electric companies are well regulated enough to keep their prices down.

      The thing about those industries is that there are physical quantities of matter being moved and cost money each time to deliver. With internet connectivity the majority of the cost is the initial infrastructure and as long
  • Minneapolis Wifi (Score:4, Informative)

    by Nite_Hawk (1304) on Tuesday November 06 2007, @02:01PM (#21257589)
    It's unfortunate that the author didn't mention the municipal wifi network that is being built in Minneapolis. So far service seems to be pretty good, and it helped rescue efforts when the 35w bridge collapsed here:

    http://blog.tmcnet.com/wireless-mobility/wifi-network-helped-minneapolis-deal-with-bridge-collapse.asp [tmcnet.com]
  • by cwgmpls (853876) on Tuesday November 06 2007, @02:05PM (#21257647) Journal
    Wireless Minneapolis [minneapolis.mn.us] is rolling out nicely. It is succeeding because
    - It is not free -- but half the price of other ISP providers in the area so it is a great bargain.
    - It is a based on a Municipal Services model, where the city will be the biggest customer of the network. So even if no one signs up, the network provider will still make a profit.

    I expect future muni wifis will use a Municipal Services-based model as well.
    • True the city of minneapolis is an anchor tenant of the service at large, especially with the deployment of the 4.9ghz public safety frequency. This is for police, ambulances, etc. use only. But on top of all of that there are plenty of residential and transient/nomad users already signed up and probably some businesses too.

      Making a profit doesn't actually happen until the huge initial up front capital investment is recouped from service subscriptions, which may take several years.
  • Very similar to this story http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/28/0555258/ [slashdot.org] but like it neglects to mention that big comm companies hold up a lot of the progress with litigation threats. This article does make a good case for cost for big cities. Most large cities probably have a customer base already getting broadband, true. But what about Podunk USA that has little choice? Why hold the threat of a lawsuit over them when they have no choices?
    • You are right.

      We should tear out our water and sewer lines, fire all of our police and firemen, and let corporate America run all of these things. I'm sure they will do a much better job.
      • You misunderstand.
        There is a difference between maintaining a current infrastructure and building a new one.
        Police and Fire Departments are not part of physical infrastructure, They have cars, trucks, horses, or feet to get them where they are needed. If they find that they need more firemen at location A then they Move to Location A. Unlike Wi-Fi where you put a wireless hub and keep it at that location and then you will need to find a way to make sure it doesn't walk away and keep it running. Police and
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          You are mighty good at typing but I still don't see how a pipe with bits in it is any different than a pipe with water in it.

          So you are saying that because Internet usage is not metered, therefore it should be run privately? What if they metered your Internet usage, like, say, Comcast does? One could very well meter Internet usage and charge for it. Poof goes your argument.

          You've put yourself on a slippery slope and even provided your own grease. Your argument about wasteful government is unsubstantiat
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Putting your faith in big corporations is crazy. They will screw you over every time, and not because of any particular person but a "good" corporation is built to screw its partners, suppliers, and customers out of every penny possible.

      I actually don't condone putting your faith in the government or the private sector. In any case you have to get involved and keep a watchful eye. People tend to be inefficient, lazy, ineffective, and generally bad at getting things done. It really doesn't matter which t

        • by nine-times (778537) <nine.times@gmail.com> on Tuesday November 06 2007, @03:23PM (#21258625) Homepage

          The problem is that a lot of big companies get to a certain size and power when they can afford to abuse their own customers because they are able to ensure that their customers have no choice. They form little cartels and engage in anti-competitive practices. They use their immense resources to brainwash the public and destroy any competing company, especially if that competing company offers a better product.

          When you hit that point, these companies are worse than the government. They have just as little need to be efficient as "the government", and they really don't have to please their customers anymore. The big difference between themselves and the government at that point is that the government has at least the pretense of "the public good" as a goal, whereas corporations only have "maximizing shareholder investment".

          Yes, you can choose another corporation, and you can choose another government too. But in neither case to revolutions come easy.

    • I'm in Albany on business right now. "Free Public WiFi" shows up on my list of available networks, but I can't connect to it at all. Guess I'll just have to settle with the wireless networks in my workplace, my motel room, the coffee shop down the street, etc.