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Sweden's Vote on OOXML Invalidated
Posted by
Zonk
on Thu Aug 30, 2007 05:04 PM
from the that's-what-you-get-when-you-cheat dept.
from the that's-what-you-get-when-you-cheat dept.
Groklaw Reader writes "Just days after Microsoft's attempt to buy the Swedish vote on OOXML came to light, SIS declared its own vote invalid. The post at Groklaw references a ComputerWorld article with revelations from Microsoft: 'Microsoft Corp. admitted Wednesday that an employee at its Swedish subsidiary offered monetary compensation to partners for voting in favor of the Office Open XML document format's approval as an ISO standard. Microsoft said the offer, when discovered, was quickly retracted and that its Sweden managers voluntarily notified the SIS, the national standards body. "We had a situation where an employee sent a communication via e-mail that was inconsistent with our corporate policy," said Tom Robertson, general manager for interoperability and standards at Microsoft. "That communication had no impact on the final vote." ...'"
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IT: Microsoft Bought Sweden's ISO Vote on OOXML? 340 comments
a_n_d_e_r_s writes "The vote on OOXML looked fairly secured. Most in the Working Group in Sweden was against the vote to approve OOXML. The day of the vote, though, more companies showed up at the door. Some 20 new companies — each one payed about $2500 to be allowed to vote — and vote they did ... for Microsoft. Most of the new companies were partners from Microsoft who suddenly out of the blue joined the Working Group, payed membership fees and voted yes for approval. From the OS2World story: 'The final result was 25 Yes, 6 No and 3 Abs and this would from the start be a done deal of saying No! Jonas Bosson who participated in today's meeting on behalf on FFII said that he left the meeting in protest and so did also IBM's Swedish local representative Johan Westman.'"
Submission: Sweeden's Vote on OOXML Invalidated by Anonymous Coward
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No impact... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:No impact... (Score:5, Interesting)
For those who speak Swedish, here's the press release by SIS [sis.se] (PDF).
Parent
Re:No impact... (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, this has significantly worsened Microsofts's reputation in Sweden. IT people here are outraged and, actually, quite embarrassed that something like this could have happened in Sweden.
If that's outrageous, then quite a few people need to open their eyes and wake up. This sort of vote-buying and behind the scenes sleaze happens all the time during standards resolution, not just for OOXML, not even just in IT. Corruption is the standard, not the exception. There's probably not an ISO spec in existence that hasn't in some way been influenced by proprietary interests through bribery or outright threats. In this case the perpetrator happened to be exposed. When international standards touted by multi-billion-dollar corporations come into play, you'd have to be a fool to think such things are not common place.
Parent
That makes me wonder... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:No impact... (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Whether you can convince enough people that this is a higher goal or of personal interest to just them is a different matter. I doubt it, myself. It's just as gratifying to have an inferior st
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
No, I'm saying that IT geeks are.
Re:No impact... (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
It has *seriously* damaged *Sweden's* reputation (Score:4, Insightful)
The organisation has instantly lost all credibility.
Parent
Re:It has *seriously* damaged *Sweden's* reputatio (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It has *seriously* damaged *Sweden's* reputatio (Score:5, Interesting)
No voting without being a member for a set amount of time, and no voting on issues presented before joining come to mind.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
meekrosuft iz zee bad for zee bribeeng oof zee svedes bork bork bork!
Re:No impact... (Score:5, Insightful)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781359.html [infoplease.com]
Parent
You sure about that? (Score:5, Insightful)
Meanwhile, something like 40 countries have just decided that they want "P" status in the ISO (i.e. to be able to vote). Most, if not all, of them have gotten stuffed to the gills with Microsoft Partners who joined recently.
So it's not just Sweden, and it remains to be seen whether these other countries will be able to do anything in time, or whether the ISO will get turned into a Microsoft puppet. Now *there* is a scary thought. No further standards without Microsoft's blessing? Ouch! I don't think they'll give up on the power they're gaining from this any time soon, not given how much money it must've cost to run a global campaign like this.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
At least they're fixing it.
Had to scroll way down to find this intellegent retort. Thank you. Part of the [any] process is discovering tomfoolery like this and righting it before it gets too far. The largest impact is revealing that OOXML (using a supposedly open XML-like syntax wrapped in proprietary digital glop from Microsoft) won't stand a chance unless someone is stuffing the ballot box. The Swedes are doing their part to root out and neutralize this kind of pressure from the Great Satan(TM) in the
Re:You sure about that? (Score:5, Insightful)
Once, Microsoft had an unchallenged monopoly on the desktop. They didn't have to bother with standards; standards didn't matter, since Microsoft could basically unilaterally decide what actually was used in IT. "ISO shmISO", as they might say in these parts.
Then, something strange happened - some governments decided they cared about standards after all, and things like ODF looked like they might get a foothold. Therefore Microsoft started to 'standardize' their offerings:
The first step for Microsoft is to get its products stamped as 'standards'. The next is to prevent competing projects from getting stamped as such. I expect to see, within a decade or so, that Microsoft products all carry ISO and ECMA logos, while Linux, OpenOffice, etc. will get derided by media shills as "those products that don't implement important international standards like OOXML, MicrosoftHTML, MicrOSoftIX, MS-DB" and other things I can't imagine right now, but I am sure Microsoft strategists will.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
SIS press release translated (Score:5, Informative)
Re:SIS press release translated (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not so sure about this. This has pretty much blown up in MS's face thanks to all the publicity its generated. Keep in mind that MS is still facing anti-trust charges in the EU, and behavior like this won't help with that. On top of that it'll likely focus a lot of attention on all the other ISO member votes. Every single vote will likely be scrutinized closely by the press & public to look for even the slightest possibility of involvement by MS.
What I think will be more important in the long run is how the ISO handles this. If they implement procedures to prevent this sort of abuse in the future then it'll help the ISO process. If they don't do anything then it just reinforces the belief by many that the ISO process can simply be bought & co-opted by companies like MS.
Parent
Re:SIS press release translated (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You sure about this? Because if they use normal absolute majority voting, then abstaining is practically the same as a No vote. If they haven't got a specific "YES" then that's one vote that's not going towards a majority.
Not because of Microsofts actions (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Not because of Microsofts actions (Score:5, Informative)
It says:
"Motivet till styrelsens beslut är att SIS har information som pekar på att en av deltagarna i arbetsgruppen har deltagit i omröstningen med mer än en röst."
which is saying that: one of the participants have used more than one vote.
Nothing about two or three... more than one. This is the diplomatic way NOT to make it even more blatantly clear that it was Microsoft or is about Microsoft. The part "information som pekar" indicates that they don't have 100% written/audio/video proof and thus this rather "meek" abjection of vote.
Parent
Re:Not because of Microsofts actions (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Refund time (Score:3, Funny)
Hopefully the SIS will offer a refund to all the honest corporations who were falsely led to believe they could buy a vote.
In the next (Score:3, Funny)
In other words (Score:5, Funny)
Sorry we got caught, we'll try not to let it happen again.
Policy (Score:5, Funny)
Said policy probably states that such communication should never happen over a traceable and archivable medium.
Vote Early, Vote Often (Score:3)
If they are the moral successors of Al Capone, perhaps they can be tamed in the same way he first came unstuck?
Perhaps even more attention should be paid to their financial activities...
Casting extra votes vs Vote buying (Score:4, Interesting)
What's Inconsistent (Score:5, Insightful)
What's inconsistent with Microsoft's policy is getting caught doing this.
Lies Come Crashing (Score:4, Informative)
All we need now is someone to come forward from another country with a "coincidentally" similar story.
I'd offer a cash reward for it, but that would influence the process. They'd just have to be satisfied with a world more free of Microsoft domination, maybe some more real innovation than the stagnation that the 80% Microsoft industry represents.
Re:Lies Come Crashing (Score:4, Informative)
I hope that the mutual coverage of both Microsoft scams gets people to come forward in Norway, too. And that should get more people elsewhere to come forward. Eventually the EU government(s) will have to do something to rein in this rampant monopoly that is corrupting technology and its industry politics in a union that doesn't even get taxes or many jobs from the "deal".
Parent
Microsoft still wins. (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft failed in it's attempt to buy a 'YES' vote from Sweden.
Microsoft successfully used it's money to turn Sweden's 'NO' vote into an 'ABSTAIN' vote.
Miles
How can they call this a standard? (Score:5, Insightful)
What's more alarming to me is that there is simply no way that OOXML is a rational standard, the voters clearly are not expert at it, nobody is backing it with an alternative implementation. I don't even believe an alternative implementation is really possible at this point, it's just not clear to me. Can you imagine how the internet wouldn't even exist if IETF standards were approached this way? It is very clear to me that the folks voting on this standard have not read it, it's 7000 pages, there simply isn't a way that they did. I don't want to out right just bash MS but they came late to the game and they simply have no track record of pushing for open standards, it's almost against their very nature. To ramrod this though will ultimately just undermine what it means for something to be "standard" and standards committee members should be aware of that, this won't make OOXML the standard so much as it will undermine the very concept of a standard for this technology. The fact that nobody on the committee is putting the brakes on to me indicates just how broken this comittee is and that the standard should be either dropped or restarted. If they aren't taking is seriously, then let's just kill the standard, I'd rather have none than a bullshit one.
Open document formats is something that is fairly important. I bet you'd have trouble dealing with a lot of common document formats from just 15 years ago. Anyone process Wordperfect 4.2 and 5 files? How about Wordstar? Multimate anyone? Sure you can probably find a way to important them and make them usable but what about in another 5 years? As we digitize more documents, right now, we're almost making sure that in 100 years this will be a dark spot in history because they won't be able to process what records may exist, if they can get them off of the media (if the media is even good) It's good for mankind to produce some well defined, open and sane standards, it's also pretty good for business, how many formats does Office currently try to support? How much does that cost? Imagine if Office 2015 only supported like 3. I don't know what kinds of numbers MS spends on it, I'm guessing millions of dollars a year just on supporting Office file formats though and I couldn't imagine it really impacting the use of Office, it's a fine piece of software. I really don't even care if it's properly documented OOXML instead of the OASIS/OO.org XML format, it just needs to be properly documented and that documentation needs to be vetted before a vote happens. Maybe that's what MS really wants but these committee members are representing corporate interests as well as national ones in some cases and I can't possibly see how they can justify the job they are doing. No standard is better than a really fucked up one.
Re:How can they call this a standard? (Score:5, Insightful)
Nobody is backing it with ANY implementation. Stéphane Rodriguez documented several non-trivial ways that MS Office fails to conform to OOXML. The purpose for MS is to waive their ISO standard around when government organizations try to insist on open standard file formats in procurement policy. The whole thing is disgusting. This may be the lowest I've ever seen MS stoop.
nobody is backing it with an alternative implementation
The sad thing here is that MS is succeeding at showing that the credibility of the standards creation process is defective. Simply put, there aren't any standards for standards.
Parent
Re:I used to process WordPerfect files... (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
What is microsoft actually trying to achieve? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What is microsoft actually trying to achieve? (Score:5, Informative)
If ODF succeeds, Microsoft stands to lose a ton of money in the long run, this is unacceptable to Microsoft, so they will do anything they can to push their not-so-open OOXML format.
Parent
Re:What is microsoft actually trying to achieve? (Score:5, Informative)
If there's a truly open consensus format, Ms won't be able to lock in users as easily.
If MS controls the format, they can pull the rug out from under others by extending it, since MS Word is the only (partial) implementation, and MS Word is a defacto monopoly, nobody else has a chance to keep up.
MS doesn't want to do the hard work of making their
And to answer another comment to the parent, no, there is no real
But basically, there are a lot of governments and other institutions that want open formats, and are finally starting to formally insist on them. ODF started getting traction, so MSOOXML is MS's fast track response to try to stop the bleeding.
Parent
For those in the US. (Score:3, Interesting)
It typically occurs anually in an event known as "The Eurovision Song Contest", which has been a popular event here for the past three decades. The title here is quite missleading, although every country enters a song, and perfoms it during the contest, the songs actually have little or no connection to the voting that takes place afterwards.
Countries can attrubite points to all counties except themselves from a scale of 10 to 1. The entertainment value comes from the voting procdure its self. Typically Sweden will give Norway 10 points, Norway will give Sweden 10 points. The slavic nations do the same. Grease and Turkey never give each other points, the same releation ship between France and England. No one likes the germans, (the songs may have some small influence on this). And the UK contestants can usually be seen popping the chanpaign corks towards the end of the voting when Ireland awards them one point.
Things have got so bad recently that the contenst (traditionally featuring light entertianment artists) was won by a group of deth metal rockers from Finland who were dressed up as monsters.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Fixed that for you.
Theft (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
And now they have moved into well known territory; Damage Control! It looks like they are doing a good job so far using a pawn for a fall guy.
Re:It seems to be the logical step (Score:5, Informative)
You are right; they should not arbitrarily change the rules. However, the official reason why the vote was nullified was not that Microsoft bought themselves a bunch of sock puppets, but that one member at the meeting voted twice. The voting was done by a show of hand, and most likely it was Microsoft themselves, who had three representatives in the room, that by accident and in the excitement of the moment had two of those raise their hands. Reports from the meeting inform us that at that point the mood was ecstatic, the Microsoft goons cheering and applauding as they trumped their line through.
The SIS is now vigorously denying that there is any other reason why the nullified the vote other than this technically proper reason to do so. Of course that is not true; the SIS board saw a way to salvage some of their credibility, built in a century and squandered in a day, by grasping onto this technicality.
That being said, I do think the SIS voting model is fundamentally wrong and broken. The rules do indeed allow the party with the deepest pockets to carry the day. I'm sure this has happened before and it will happen again. I hope the SIS will not get away with this without implementing some thorough reform of how they operate. The same goes for the bodies in other countries that turned out to be easily corruptible.
Parent
Re:It seems to be the logical step (Score:4, Interesting)
Why not? The DMCA passed the House by voice vote, and the Senate by "unanimous consent."
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Formal votes occur quite often in Congress. If every vote were a roll call vote, little would get done. In Robert's Rules, anyone can move for a roll call vote, which someone must second. If the majority then wishes, a roll call vote must be taken.
For a roll call vote in Congress there must be a motion, and the motion must be seconded by 20% of the members present. The votes can take upwards of 15 minut
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
The diffusion theory of Evil (Score:5, Funny)
This is clearly shown by the Google, "Do No Evil" corporate slogan. More a statement of the inability to perform evil due to the concentration gradient and general lack of evil available.
Parent