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Software Makers Lobby EU Against Microsoft
Posted by
Zonk
on Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:28 PM
from the sandbox-diplomacy dept.
from the sandbox-diplomacy dept.
Carl Bialik from WSJ writes "Adobe and Symantec are lobbying EU regulators for action against Vista, the Wall Street Journal reports. Adobe is calling for Microsoft to be barred from building into the OS free software that competes with Acrobat. From the article: 'Adobe and Symantec have told EU regulators that Vista has put them squarely in Microsoft's cross hairs. Symantec is concerned that Vista will direct consumers toward a Microsoft-designed security console, or box that shows what level various security functions, such as an Internet firewall, are set on. The rival company wants to be able automatically to override the Microsoft template with its own design and features, as it has been allowed to do in the past.'"
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Technology: Security Companies Tussle With MS Security Center 225 comments
hey0you0guy writes, "The large security firms such as Symantec and McAfee want Microsoft to allow them to replace Microsoft's Windows Security Center. Microsoft is refusing these requests. 'By imposing the Windows Security Center on all Windows users, Microsoft is defining a template through which everybody looks at security,' Bruce McCorkendale, a chief engineer at Symantec, said in an interview. 'How do we trust that Microsoft knows what all the important things about security are to warn users about?' Given Microsoft's past, with vast piles of security flaws and patches, they should at least cooperate with these companies. A dispute still exists over PatchGuard, a security feature that Microsoft says is designed to guard core parts of the 64-bit version of Vista, but which critics say locks out helpful software from security rivals."
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Microsoft is doing the right thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Symantecs OS invading suite of crappy tools just sucks.
Integrating PDF generation into applications and office suites ist also a MUST.
Microsoft is doing the right thing here. And i won't whine for symantec, they just made all the veritas products more sucky.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
1) Adobe made PDF an open standard, and now they are mad its being used?
2) Adobe has been sitting on PDF as a money maker for years without much innovation. Time to shake up the industry!
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Re:Microsoft is doing the right thing (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
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This is incorrect. Adobe says you can freely write software that will create PDF format documents as long as you don't break the spec and give them copyright credit on it.
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As for a security centre, how much easier will it make life if you can tell *every* Vista user "Go Start, Control Panel, Security Center, and read what it says"? The one in XPSP2 was a good start, hopefully Vista will hook it into onecare so it really is a one-stop point.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Seconded. If you make a standard open (PDF) you should expect people to integrate it with other apps. Adobe have shot themselves in the foot with this.
If you publish a free recipe for cheese, you should expect the telephone company to start illegally bundling it with your phone service too, huh?
This isn't about open standards, this is about illegal, anti-competitive bundling to drive competitors out of a market, regardless of whether or not they have a better product. Which is better PDF or XPS? Which o
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And OS X. Oh, and OpenOffice.org.
In this analogy Apple is the supermarket and the Open Office team is the convenience store. They can bundle anything they want because they aren't a monopoly providing you a monopoly service. If Apple bundles PDF and you don't want it, buy a Dell or a Lenovo. If the Open Office team bundles PDF, buy Wordperfect or download Koffice. If MS bundles it, you're screwed, because most software only runs on Windows and it is not practical (economically) for most people to switch
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Re:Microsoft is doing the right thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Andn as far as PDF conversion goes, it's been free as part of PDFcreator for ages. Adobe's commercial versions are in fact more fragile, bulkier, produce less reliable PDF, and have a terrible tendency to stuff your system with "features" that you never asked for. The free PDFcreator, riding on top of Ghostscript's history of robustness and reliability rather than pursuing "business plans" that break features, has been outperforming it in automatic print services for years.
Parent
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Re:Microsoft is doing the right thing (Score:4, Insightful)
People need to remember that competition law exists to protect competition, not to protect competitors. Thanks to Microsoft's desire to keep one step ahead of the competition in those areas which matter to their customers, customers have benefited from easier to use software, both from Microsoft, and from alternative os suppliers.
Parent
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Why you haven't been modded +1 'funny' for the comment is beyond me.
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Symantec wasnt only complaining about their own software, but _all_ security products. They are saying (true or not is a different story) that no other security software except microsoft's own will run well on vista.
Integrating PDF into apps is a must? Seriously? It took me less than 10 secs on google to find three different
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Microsoft programmers have said many times on various MSDN blogs that a lot of the undocumented APIs that Norton and others use will be closed in Vista to be replaced with documented APIs. I believe some of the posts even invited software developers to get in touch with them if they haven't found a suitable replacement for a private API that your software used in the past.
So basically, Symantec sounds like they are being lazy. "I have to chang
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
And apparently I'm also free to pay for these bundled apps as well. Now tell me why I should pay for Windows Vista + MS Defender and then just not use Defender and but and install Norton? I've already paid for MS Defender why would I buy Norton too?
This is Netscape all over again. What Symantec is complaining about is that Windows Defender will be installed automatically. If someone installs Norton, Norton will have to disable Windows De
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
As for any API, Win32 is the external layer of an onion. The internal layers are also organised sometimes in smaller private "APIs". Most of the time you don't see them and you cannot access them (eg: statically linked) but with in specific area you can call undocumented private function by selecting an entry in a dll or by updating some undocumented memory structure.
Needless to say that those function are highly susceptible to change from one security fix/patch to an
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If Microsoft generates PDF's then they will be readable on lots of OS'es with any PDF reader software.
First, we have no real guarantee they won't intentionally break PDF the same way they intentionally break HTML. Second, I believe the previous poster was referring to XPS [wikipedia.org], MS's proprietary, patented, closed competitor to PDF, which they are planning on bundling with Vista.
Either way, you seems very upset abotu things that are not real.
Nope, you're just not as informed as the previous poster.
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You expect a Microsoft provided anti-virus or spyware removal tool to be any better? The fact is that it is anti-competitive to the n-th degree. This sort of lock-in is what has gotten Microsoft in trouble in the past by providing users with their own solutions for things and making them embedded into the system. The EU is the only one who has thus far proven to have the balls to actually make them do anything about it or pay for it.
Integrating P
Re:Microsoft is doing the right thing (Score:4, Insightful)
So Symantec's tools suck. Fine. But if Microsoft is allowed to integrate an equally sucky version into its OS, it'll win by default, and we'll be stuck with suckiness forever.
Let Microsoft bring out their own software, very welcome! But as a seperate product, sold in a box. If there's special hooks for it in Windows, they should be openly documented.
Then, both Symantec and Microsoft will have an actual reason to make a _good_ product!
Parent
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So Symantec's tools suck. Fine. But if Microsoft is allowed to integrate an equally sucky version into its OS, it'll win by default, and we'll be stuck with suckiness forever.
That was exactly my thought. I don't like Symantec's software so much anymore, but at least I still have the choice to go with someone else. If security companies are saying that they've been locked out of Vista, that means I'm stuck with whatever Microsoft puts out, and they haven't been known for their success in security. I'm no
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Business is a game where the playing field,
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Let's see. Symantec's business model is selling products that work around Windows's brokenness. Now Microsoft is trying to fix Windows (though I doubt they'll be successful), and so Symantec is whining.
Adobe made and advertised PDF as an open standard. Now they're complaining that the standard is being implemented.
Personally, I'd enjoy seeing Microsoft barred from providing security fixes and PDF support, but that's just because I think Windows is already a hopeless shipwreck that will benefit the w
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But, then, every other application should have generation of Word/Office formats as a must. And I don't see Microsoft being keen on letting everyone create things in their own formats.
In this case, Adobe is saying "Hey, that's our format, and you're not allowed to do that". As much as everyone has treated PDF as a 'standard' document interchange format, it still belongs to Adobe. Why should they roll over to allow Microsoft to
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Break what law?
The Sherman Antitrust act in the US. I'm not sure what the antitrust law in the EU is called.
PDF is an open format.
Yes, it is. What is your point and what does that have to do with MS bundling a competing format?
LOL!!! Edumacate urself!!!
Umm, did you miss your meds today? Take a deep breath and sit down for a while. Maybe later you'll be able to handle reality.
I Don't Think Adobe or Symantec Have Anything... (Score:2)
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Amazingly... (Score:2, Insightful)
PDF is a standard that Linux and OS X are well brought into. While I worry about my documents turning up mangled if I send them as an OO.o produced
While I'm happy to see Adobe get a competitor
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Adobe tossed a fit, Microsoft removed the feature.
Why should consumers suffer from Adobe being a spoiled brat? We are considering their rights here, as is necessary from the point of view of regulating a monopoly dominated market (the market of pre-installed document readers, on which Microsoft exerts monopolist influence - or will do if they ever release a functional replacement fo
So M$ bad Apple good, eh? (Score:3, Insightful)
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When you are deemed a monopoly, you have to play by different legal rules.
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It's not an incoherent position. I would claim very strongly that OEMs should be free to bundle whatever software they like. If Dell wants to offer a security suite and PDF generation program bundle, pre-installed on delivery, I don't think anyone would complain. In fact, Dell does exactly that. The only difference is that Apple makes the software that they bundle with their systems.
Make no mistake-- iLife is commercial software. Last I checked, it was $80. Apple has also had a history of bundling no
silly, (Score:3, Interesting)
Beware the monoculture! (Score:2)
It's the same with computers, even though the "vermin" is man made. The more computers run on the same OS, office suit, picture and document viewers and even security software, the more those products become a target for malware. Simply because you can gain a lot of impact with a single piece of malware. You c
Symantec has no argument (Score:3)
I can understand adobe's reasoning.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Adobe said PDF is an open standard and anybody can make a reader/writer for it if they want. Now that Microsoft has, they're trying to renege on that and say it's proprietary? Doesn't work that way, Adobe.
PDF is an open standard. Anyone can make a reader and writer for it. The recipe for cheese is open too and anyone can make and sell cheese. So you don't mind if the electric company (a monopoly) raises your rates by $20 a month and gives you some slightly sub-par cheese do you? And you don't think chees
See: Irony (Score:4, Insightful)
Now MS is trying to fix this with Vista.
So basically, the logic being put forth is: Our business model is based on your inability to put out a secure product. Your attempt at putting out a secure product is going to break our business model, and thus our business.
- Roach
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
mixed feelings on this one (Score:2)
For Symantec's complaint. I think MS should be allowed to have a firewall integrated into the system. If they make a shitty one than turn it
Waste of resources (Score:2, Insightful)
Vista is insidious (Score:2)
Apple next? (Score:2)
It's just going to get worse (Score:4, Interesting)
It's only going to get worse for companies like Symantec and Adobe. Building software on the Windows platform brings the advantages of a large market. The disadvantage is that Microsoft is not in the business of creating a platform for developers, they're in the business of selling software licenses. The licenses get sold because people are addicted to the platform, not because people can protect it with Symantec products.
And Adobe's complaints really surprise me. OS X has been able to export anything to PDF - a relatively open format - for years, and I can do the same thing on KDE.
Windows is a shaky foundation to build a business on - albeit a potentially profitable one until Microsoft decides to assimilate your functionality.
More lawyers than engineers.... (Score:2, Troll)
No one will make the claim that MS has the best product out there for anything except maybe Office and Visual Studio. Certainly NOT the best OS available when rated by security or stability
Not fair (Score:3, Interesting)
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Your argument is horribly flawed. Yes, let's all refuse to buy Vista. How many desktops do we account for? 10% maybe. Most people are going to buy from Dell and HP/Compaq (or heaven forbid, Gateway). The fact i
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If I want any office-type of job, whether computer-related or simply sales, I'd better know how to operate windows/office, otherwise: no job. If I want to be able to work from home from time to time, I'd better have at least one windows/office machine at home, whether company paid or by myself. If I choose to use OpenOffice, I'd better be humble when something goes wrong in cooperating. Although it is accepted that office fucks up itself from time to time, it's not accepted of any other app. By th
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
No. This is a basic fallacy, the "Windows ecosystem", of various ISPs making money off of stuff that runs on Windows. This is not how things actually work.
What actually goes on, is that Microsoft treats the ISPs as unpaid employees working on 'market-testing' projects. Adobe make money off of PDF stuff? Then Microsoft will add PDF tools to their OS next time around. Somebody has a b
DOJ is doing nothing so you need the EU (Score:5, Informative)
Parent