UK Gives Go-Ahead to Gary McKinnon Extradition 309
robzster1977 writes "Judges in the UK have given the go-ahead to the extradition of UK hacker Gary McKinnon. McKinnon is accused of breaking into US Navy, Army and Department of Defense computers in 2001 and 2002." From the article: "On 4 July the secretary of state signed an order for Mr McKinnon's extradition to the United States for charges connected with computer hacking. Mr McKinnon had exercised his right to submit representations against return but the secretary of state did not consider the issues raised availed Mr McKinnon."
Date? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:E-mail address (Score:2)
I am writing about your ruling to extradite Gary McKinnon. What is happening is wrong. How could you be so heinous as to send someone who broke into other's property to the country where the victim is located, to face trial? That is horrible. You should let him go, as he is obviously a good person.
Sincerely,
The Association for the Welfare of Hackers, Pirates, Terrorists.
Freedom (Score:5, Funny)
Whoever they are.
Re:Freedom (Score:2, Insightful)
I said nothing; after all, I was not a Communist.
When they locked up the Social Democrats,
I said nothing; after all, I was not a Social Democrat.
When they arrested the trade unionists,
I said nothing; after all, I was not a trade unionist.
When they arrested the Jews, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Jew.
When they arrested me, there was no longer anyone who could protest.
- Martin Niemöller
Re:Freedom (Score:3, Funny)
> When they locked up the Social Democrats, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Social Democrat.
> When they arrested the trade unionists, I said nothing; after all, I was not a trade unionist.
> When they arrested the Jews, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Jew. When they arrested me, there was no longer anyone who could protest.
Now if only they'd come for the trite.
But I'll settle for
Re:Freedom (Score:4, Insightful)
A.)The DOD still owns it
B.)Unauthorized access of a federal government computer is still a federal crime?
Re:Freedom (Score:2)
That applies here how? (Score:3, Informative)
When a cop, dressed like a hooker, comes up to you and says, "Two hundred for the night", and you try to haggle, that is entrapment.
Do you see the critical difference?
Re:That applies here how? (Score:2)
Re:That applies here how? (Score:2)
Now, out of all these scenarios, which one does poor Mr. McKinnon's most closely resemble?
Re:That applies here how? (Score:2)
Re:That applies here how? (Score:2)
Link? I mean other than this one. [wikipedia.org]
Re:That applies here how? (Score:2)
Re:That applies here how? (Score:2)
Re:Freedom (Score:5, Interesting)
I said nothing; after all, I was not a child rapist.
When they locked up the serial killers,
I said nothing; after all, I was not a serial killer.
When they arrested the armed robbers,
I said nothing; after all, I was not an armed robber.
When they arrested the spammers,
I celebrated, because I'm a hypocrite about computer crimes.
When they arrested me for breaking into a computer network, there was no longer anyone who could protest.
- Stickerboy
Please (Score:5, Insightful)
Every hacker that has every been arrested has always claimed that he was only curious and looking around. Let me tell you something, if you walk into my front door, locked or not, that is still trespass, I don't care if you just wanted to get a look at my collection of potato chips resembling presidents.
This isn't a witch hunt. If you even use a phrase like "I broke in", then you know what side of the law that you are on. These guys are just angry because they know they are criminals, they got caught, and now they are facing the full force of the law. When are all of the Mitnick humpers going to get a clue and maybe not do things tha are illegal?
Re:Please (Score:5, Insightful)
i am sorry but when the virtual world hits reality it doesn't seem that punishment fits the crime.
Re:Please (Score:2)
AKA felony murder, and punishable by the death penalty in many, many states. And these computers weren't unsecured, just because he got in. It's like saying a house was unlocked because you jimmy the front door.
Re:Please (Score:2)
not quite fair
Re:Please (Score:5, Insightful)
How soon we forget this story from the 4th:
Cambridge Breached the Great Firewall of China [slashdot.org]
Any ideas when Richard Clayton will be extradicted to China [from the UK]?
And based upon this statedment:
Clayton, speaking at the Sixth Workshop on Privacy Enhancing Technologies in Cambridge last week, said that the researchers had reported their findings to the Chinese Computer Emergency Response Team.
It appears acceptable when testing a government's resources if it's from an academic perspective and you report any findings.
I'm not trolling or tossing flamebait out here. I'd like to know why these jokers are any different, other than it'll be China's choice whether to pursue them, or not, and I'm guessing not will happen because they were nice about reporting their results in the interest of benefiting the object of their efforts. But who gets to decide the intent of the party performing the actions, and after the fact, no less?
I can see an exception if Cambridge volunteered to do this with China's approval or if China commissioned the activities, either of those in advance.
Otherwise, what's the difference?
Re:Please (Score:2)
anyone got a private island i can move too?
Re:Please (Score:2)
Um... If you believe the system works you've got another thing coming. Especially in Camden, NJ. Last thing you ever want to be is called a "snitch". But I digress...
A better example would have been to compare him to a rapist who at most will get 20 years and will most likley only server 5.
Re:Please (Score:2)
Never mind that in most places, the guy who kills someone during an armed robbery will probably go away for life (or lose his life), it sounds like what you're arguing for is even harsher penalties for armed robbers/burglars. OK, that's fine.
Re:Please (Score:2)
In the american federal systen, crimes of violence are almost always prosecuted under state law. If you think sentencing is too light, talk to your state assemblyman or state senator.
But I wouldn't advise commiting a felony in DC or in any other setting where the feds do have jurisdiction.
This is not about hacking... (Score:3, Interesting)
This is about someone being condemned unfairly to set a public example. Sort of what the RIAA does with "OMG the evil pirate filesharers!".
Because if you STILL believe there's justice in the USA, you might as well believe in spaceships from another planet. The USA should be treated like a dictatorship where human rights CONTINUE to be abused systematically.
Want an example? The NSA spying on the citizens. Curiously, it could be ALSO interpr
Re:This is not about hacking... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is not about hacking... (Score:2)
Re:Please (Score:5, Insightful)
If you'd bothered to follow the case from the beginning, you'd understand why so many people are protesting against this series of outrageous decisions.
The United States have, through massive exaggeration and dishonesty, virtually abducted a British citizen in order to make him a scapegoat on which to blame the exceptional lack of security in their government computer systems.
Re:Please (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Please (Score:5, Insightful)
Think of it this way. Someone breaks into my house. Sucks to be me, and the guy is still a criminal, even if no damage or harm was done. That same guy breaks into the Pentagon. Sucks to be the Pentagon, and the guy is still a criminal, even if no damage or harm was done. The issue at hand is that the metaphorical pentagon had a wooden front door with a $25 lock from Home Depot like my house, not the $millions steel-reenforced foot-thick armored god-stopper that can withstand a missile that it should have had. What the guy did was wrong and inexcusable, but not nearly as inexcusable as these government entities having absolutely shitty securiy - they're upplaying his role and intentions to make him a scapegoat for their own shortcomings.
The least we can hope that comes out of this is that they fix the security before some no-talent script kiddie that's a part of a terrorist organization or has other intents to do serious harm comes along and exploits the same wheel of swiss cheese.
Re:Please (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Please (Score:3, Insightful)
How is $5000 reasonable at all?
Someone needs to go through the logs on each PC - ok, lets give them 10 hours @ $75/hr to do that. That's $750.
Now someone needs to wipe/reinstall the PC - we'll give them 5 hours for that @ $75/hr. That's $375.
Add them up - that's $1125.
That is for 15 hours of dealing which each PC. Yes, this doesn't include lost work, but its not hard to copy some Word/Excel/etc to
On damage (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Freedom (Score:2)
That way you get to do the arresting.
Re:Freedom (Score:2)
Well, you know... fair cop.
-Gary Mckinnon
Re:Freedom (Score:2)
The trick is... (Score:3, Funny)
Conjugal visits? Mmmm. Not that I know of. Y'know, minimum-security prison is no picnic. I have a client in there right now. He says the trick is: kick someone's ass the first day, or become someone's bitch. Then everything will be all right.
Re:The trick is... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's what passes for law and order here. Being raped for all crimes no matter how minor.
Re:The trick is... (Score:2)
Re:The trick is... (Score:2, Funny)
Sure it does.
And we all know that guys who spend their time looking for suppressed UFO technologies in other people's military computers are generally real badasses - especially compared to violent prisoners.
Yeah, he'll be running shit in no time. . .
Re:The trick is... (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, the same techniques you use with a sword translate quite well to pretty much any other weapon - stick, rolled up newspaper, etc. Even just your fists.
The lines of attack are the same with any rigid weapon and most of the movements are as well. The problem is that almost nobody ever teaches that fact because most people who train martially do i
good (Score:5, Informative)
Re:good (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm proud to be a subject of Her Majesty, and accept my responsibilities under her laws - but how come I have to accept rulings from a judge in Brussels or the US? I'm sure they're all very nice people, but they're nto the boss of me. Or at least they shouldn't be.
Re:good (Score:5, Insightful)
how come I have to accept rulings from a judge in the US?
[1] Because you hacked into a computer in the US. Don't commit crimes in other countries, and you won't have to answer to their legal system.
[2] Because the elected government in your own country decided to ship your sorry ass over here to answer for your crime.
Re:good (Score:5, Insightful)
The Chinese government hereby requests your extradition for execution and subsequent trial for voicing opinions in direct oposition to the Party's doctrine on the Internet acessible (by mistake) from China. That is if Iranians do not manage to get you first for daring to speak ill of Islam (evidence of which was secretly presented in a secret prioceeding of a secret court). And so on...
Newsflash: the whole point is that one, by definition, cannot be held liable for crimes abroad if he/she was not physically there while commiting them.
An accusation of "computer" or "internet" crime does not magically change the basic logic of this, it would be equally silly if he had made prank calls to the Iranian Mullahs (severely punishable in Iran, I am sure) or sent booze by mail to the Saudi Crown Prince (which would probably get someone from Saudi Arabia beheaded if he had done so). The foreign laws simply do not apply to activities commitied while in UK.
Which of course is the apex of the stupidity on the part of the UK government and an extemely dangerous precedent. In essence, the UK has acknowledged supremacy of US law and courts over its own by doing this. It is a stance of a poodle beaten into sulking submition, not a proud, independent nation.
Re:good (Score:2, Insightful)
So if I push this big red button, and it launches a missile across the border...
Re:good (Score:3, Insightful)
So if I push this big red button, and it launches a missile across the border...
Re:good (Score:2)
Then you would be held responsible under the laws of the country you are in, with your local prosecutor being aided by the foreign country representatives. Most countries have laws against launching bombs at their neighbours. If the government of your country was supporting you instead, then it would be an act of war, as an act of launching missiles (as opposed to prank phone calls and hacking in search of UFOs) is internationa
Re:good (Score:2)
That would be only so if the country you are in had no laws against bombing people. Otheriwse you would be charged uner these laws, afforded all the locally mandated judicial process (with the assistance of the foreign nation in question) and then likely jailed, also in your country.
If the country you are in instead aid
Re:good (Score:2)
No you are not "good". That is because unless the country you are in deems it ok to kill people abroad, you would be charged with murder under the local laws and prosecuted with the aid of the foreign nation in question. If the country you are in finds launching nukes at their neighbours peechy, such an activity is then
Re:good (Score:2)
Re:good (Score:3, Informative)
Just for reference -- I'm sure there are those who don't know -- Queenie herself signs all the parliamentary laws in the UK. (Though it's also worth pointing out that the last time a British monarch got away with refusing to sign one was in 1708.)
Re:good (Score:2)
Can you imagine what it must be like to be the Queen though? The temptation to tell Blair to just fuck right off... You gotta admire her restraint. Perhaps she's saving it for Brown? "I have decided upo
Re:good (Score:2)
Re:good (Score:2)
"How much more do you think President Mandelson would cost each year?"
Re:good (Score:2)
Re:good (Score:2)
I believe the proper wording that the monarch is supposed to use on such an occasion, at least when being asked to sign something into law, is, "La reine s'avisera."
Re:good (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean since I wasn't in the UK when I committed the crime then it really isn't any of their business.
Re:good (Score:2)
The Daily Telegraph has been running a campaign and is soliciting "signatures" to an open letter [telegraph.co.uk] to the home secretary demanding changes. This has been prompted by the case of the "NatWest three", who have been caught up by the Enron scandal, although there seems to be no reason for prosecution of these three in the US (since all the allegations concer
Prison (Score:2)
Shouldn't that depend on how much damage the person did and what their intent was, just like it does for illegal entry in meatspace? It's a non-violent crime and a non-prison sentence might make sense. Trials are for answering questions like that.
If the goal were a fair trial, this twit could have been left in the UK to face the perfectly adequate courts there.
Re:good (Score:2)
sorry, are we talking about the elves from lord of the rings? I'm confused....
guantanemo for pushing the big red button (Score:5, Insightful)
Hail the new american slogan, "It isn't fascism when we do it!"
I've seen this guy in interviews. A clever man, who obviously has a lot more to give to the world. Shame he's going to get disappeared.
Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (Score:2)
Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (Score:2)
now the real question you have to ask is.. whom would i kill..
Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (Score:2)
Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (Score:2)
Personally no, but to be fair having police and death penalties doesn't really seem to disuade people from murdering.
We had 300 murders in my city alone last year and it isn't as bad as Camden across the river.
Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (Score:2)
Well, the latter sure cuts down on repeat offenders!
Crime and Punishment (Score:2)
There is another reason we punish those who commit crimes: it is part of the contract between us and authority. We know
Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (Score:2)
In traditional societies such matters are settled by the warlord, the family or the clan. Sometimes through the punishment of nn innocent: the gang rape of your wife or daughter perhaps.
There is always a mechanism in place to discipline those who cannot discipline themselves.
The question you ask has no meaning.
Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (Score:2)
Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (Score:2)
Nobody waved a big red button in front of his face; he found it and pushed it. You can argue malicious intent, and it will indeed probably affect his sentencing, but tresspass is still a crime. If you don't like it, why don't you open up your home and information systems to random strangers first?
I've got it, again! (Score:2)
That's it! As long as the economic controls are more akin to monkeys hitting buttons, they can't call us fascists! You, dear Mr. Thered, deserves an Iron Cross. I mean, a Presidential Medal of Freedom.
Re:I've got it, again! (Score:2)
Well, somebody's really defensive today... (Score:2)
Guantánamo is the big red herring (Score:2)
Secondly, you obviously have no idea of what constitutes fascism as a political and economic ideology, please read up on it here [wikipedia.org].
Third, can you please tone down the knee-jerk anti-americanism is regards to ran
Re:Guantánamo is the big red herring (Score:2)
Yes. America is a special place. You have no right to be anti american. you can be anti any other country but not anti american.
Also please wait till america is actually a fascist state before ciritizing it. There is no sense in critizing it during it's slide into facism.
Re:guantanemo for pushing the big red button (Score:2)
So if you leave your eldery mum on a park bench for an hour, feeding the pigeons, are you "fascist" when you applaud the police for arresting someone that pushes her aside and goes through her purse? I mean, she's just sitting there, with no guards or anything. It's just going to happen - it's probably even a big, red purse.
You're exactly the sort of idiot that ma
Truth, Justice and The American Way (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Truth, Justice and The American Way (Score:4, Interesting)
I used to feel like the Americans (myself included) always wore the "white hat." Looking back, I'm just not qite so certain of that.
So yes, it now makes more sense to me that those three items are listed separately... The American Way does not include truth or justice.
Re:Truth, Justice and The American Way (Score:2)
Re:Truth, Justice and The American Way (Score:2)
You wouldn't be confusing the nation's founders with the European colonists that actually showed up with and imported more slaves for a good 100+ years before the country was formed? Or the bitter civil war that was fought, among reasons, to put a stop to those practices in the remaining states that were still clinging to the colonial economic model? Oh, I guess you would be confusing those.
Re:Truth, Justice and The American Way (Score:2)
Even now, cheaper labor at ANY cost is the order of the day and I'm still waiting for a list of businesses that are not guilty
"Poor Dumb Son Of a Bitch" (Score:5, Insightful)
Gary McKinnon is another poor dumb son of a bitch. He may well be mentally ill. There's a saying among criminals, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. I think McKinnon will get eaten alive, served up as a reminder that big brother cuts you no slack when it comes to stealing their information.
Master criminals execute plans, most convicts commit crimes. Convicts get caught up in committing a crime, they're their own drug dealers and they're junkies. Their brains serve them up a high that comes from breaking the law. Convicts fill our prisons and take their cred from the hard time they do. McKinnon is his own junkie, a convict juiced on committing a crime. His delusions will probablly cost him his life whether he gets to go on living or not.
just my loose change
Extradite == make an example of (Score:5, Insightful)
McKinnon committed a crime here too and, as a UK citizen, he should be tried here. Of course, the USUK 'special relationship' is the most important factor here so the extradition order was signed without so much as a second glance.
"Britons never shall be slaves?"
Not in this day and age.
Re:Extradite == make an example of (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Extradite == make an example of (Score:2)
As an American, I have to tell you, really, if given the option I'd rather be tried in the UK and sentenced to jail in a UK prision rather than one over here.
Re:Extradite == make an example of (Score:3, Interesting)
I mean, I don't have anything against Britain. I like Guiness and Monty Python; I don't care to hear how we're corrupting the English language or that our culture is boorish, but other than that, I care as much about GB as I do Sweden.
I think the "special relationship" is more of a strategic and diplomatic alliance of our governments, than any brotherly feeling between the citizens. For some reason, the US and the UK 'trust' each other a little more than a normal internat
Uhhhh... (Score:2)
In addition, there has been at least one case in the past few years where the UK extradited an American to face trial in the UK?
Most of the countries in the world have extradition treaties with each other. What "special relationship" do you think is needed?
A little perspective, perhaps? (Score:2)
Would you say that the Spanish government was "bending over" for the UK in this case [bbc.co.uk]?
How about the Nigerians? Are you ashamed to make them bend over [africamasterweb.com]?
Perhaps the Italians are feeling bent over by the UK [timesonline.co.uk]?
Or, perhaps the Germans, when they extradited a former US Marine to the UK [cnn.com]?
One is tempted to think that you are, perhaps, exhibiting selective distaste for extradition when it suits your purely political posturing?
"Defense" will be his "defence" (Score:5, Funny)
What happened to nationality? (Score:4, Insightful)
Another case is Richard Read - the "shoe bomber" from a few years back. He was a British subject (admittedly they didn't want him) and is held prisoner somewhere in the US (or you-know-where in Cuba).
Does holding a passport, or nationality mean nothing? No matter what your nationality when you do a crime against the US, they get to do what they want with you.
Re:What happened to nationality? (Score:2)
That's part of why terrorists attack us. (Score:2)
Why do they do it? Fear and Greed. As the US economy dwindles, the greed will be less...and perhaps as other nations ramp up their offensive capabilities...fear will be less.
And cue the tools who will call me an idiot because these policies 'keep me safe'. No thanks...I think these p
Re:What happened to nationality? (Score:2)
Shame on the UK or any other country (Score:2)
This man, however guilty, sick, or whatever his problem is, should be sentenced in the UK.
This is my personal viewpoint so if you do not agree, you are free to disagree....
You have no idea how the law works, do you? (Score:2)
Most Liberals do.. (Score:2)
Guilty! (Score:2, Insightful)
Politics works like this... (Score:2)
It's really not personal.
Extradition to Uncivilized Nations (Score:3, Insightful)