AllofMP3.com May Hinder Russia Joining WTO 419
gitana writes "The New York Times is reporting that American trade negotiators may demand the shutdown of AllofMP3.com as a condition of Russia joining the World Trade Organization." From the article: "Music industry officials say AllofMP3, which first came to their attention in 2004, is a large-scale commercial piracy site, and they dismiss its claims of legality. "It is totally unprecedented to have a pirate site operating so openly for so long," said Neil Turkewitz, executive vice president of the Recording Industry Association of America, who is based in Washington ... AllofMP3.com says on the site that it can legally sell to any user based in Russia and warns foreign users to verify the legality within their countries for themselves. The site features a wide selection of Russian music, but is written in English with prices listed in United States dollars."
I knew it was illegal! (Score:5, Funny)
Goddamnit, how can we, as Americans, allow such a site to exist?!? Russian sites must be written in a native (or, at the most, european) language, and they'd better show prices in rubles. Well, I guess, euros would be okay as well, as long as they don't directly link to a currency conversions site.
I'd like to call, once and for all, for all sites not located within the US (or, um, England) to stop putting up sites in English.
Re:I knew it was illegal! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I knew it was illegal! (Score:2)
http://www.themp3direct.com/ [themp3direct.com]
Same look and feel, same story.
That's not a different site (Score:4, Informative)
You get the same thing from the beginning if your browser indicates it's in russian.
Re:I knew it was illegal! (Score:2)
Hmmm. Too bad for Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Scotland and Northern Ireland (not technically part of England), the Republic of Ireland (definitely not part of England) and -- oh, let me see -- a good chunk of the Caribbean, no doubt a number of African countries
Look, of course I get your point: it's totally lame for
Re:I knew it was illegal! (Score:5, Funny)
Hmmm. Too bad for Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Scotland and Northern Ireland (not technically part of England), the Republic of Ireland (definitely not part of England) and -- oh, let me see -- a good chunk of the Caribbean, no doubt a number of African countries
Well you forgot Wales, but that's ok everyone else does too:
Eurocrats leave Wales off EU map [bbc.co.uk]
Re:I knew it was illegal! WTO let china in (Score:5, Insightful)
China can barely call itself anything but a state holding its people hostage with fear and brainwashing. Recently someone in China who was being interviews by Nova or front line was shown a picture of "Tank Man" from Tiananmen square and they DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE IMAGE WAS OF! Maximum censorship OR total fear of even admitting that something against the government ever even happened. This was 4 students in the interview either feigning not knowing what "Tank Man" is or genuinely not knowing about the incident.
Russia who has valuable oil resources and a more European disposition and a moratorium on the death penalty sells a few MP3s in accordance with their local laws - something the pricks at Google (Schmidt) and Yahoo (Terry "Terrorist" Semel) say makes their anti-Chinese citizen policies in assisting the totalitarian authoritarian government with their persecution - and they cant join the WTO.
WHAT A JOKE. This is a total sick joke.
Re:I knew it was illegal! WTO let china in (Score:3, Interesting)
The WTO has already warned the US about outlawing online gambling, but congress is prepared to do just that. You think the WTO is going to kick the US out? I doubt it.
I guess it's just another NYT jourmammal being sensational. Nothing new here, move along.
Re:I knew it was illegal! WTO let china in (Score:5, Insightful)
But how many dollars do US lose on these activities?
This is about the World Trade Organization -- making money.
Re:I knew it was illegal! WTO let china in (Score:5, Insightful)
value of song copyright > value of human life
Now is it clear?
Re:I knew it was illegal! WTO let china in (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I knew it was illegal! (Score:3, Insightful)
if it seems too good to be true (Score:4, Insightful)
If it seems to good to be true, it probably is.
Long ago as Napster faded into the sunset (in its old form, at least) a friend turned me onto allofmp3. Promised me it was only $.10 a track and the selection was amazing. I went there, I signed up, I think I even may have purchased a few tracks.
But the more I looked at it, the more uneasy I felt about how legitimate it could be. This latest story confirms my hunch... they aren't. This other related article from Wired [wired.com] goes into further detail. Apparently allofmp3 is already offering downloads for the latest Red Hot Chili Peppers' as are tracks from the latest Shakira album (you can tell I'm from the vinyl age, still calling them "albums"). The prices are 1/10 the iTunes rates, and while the article doesn't say, it would seem allofmp3 has no contract or agreement to sell these tracks.
(From the Wired article: "..., World music downloading leader iTunes charges a fixed 99 cents per song, but the Russian site offers tracks for a 10th of that price. Songs from the Red Hot Chili Peppers' new double album, Stadium Arcadium, cost between 10 and 16 cents. The whole of Oral Fixation, Vol. 2, the latest album by Colombian pop star Shakira, can be had for just $1.40...., ")
I like what allofmp3 has tried to do, offer a vast array of music at much more reasonable prices than the rest of the world, but it does them, and the rest of us who would demand a more fair distribution model irreparable damage. The more "we" are labeled as criminals by our own actions, the more fodder for their argument. And, the more likely DRM becomes more onerous and intrusive and constraining.
Also interesting is the focus of the article, the barrier for Russia to enter into the World Trade Organization. I couldn't care less about that aspect, it seems a big stick and out of proportion that Russia should bear... but that's political schtick. I think the even bigger issue is this has put allofmp3 on everybody's radar, which of course means the RIAA, Congress, progress (i.e., the opposite of congress), etc. And if allofmp3 is selling rogue mp3s, it's bad for the anti-DRM community.
It's an eternal adage, and how true it always seems to be: "If it seems to good to be true, it probably is."
Re:if it seems too good to be true (Score:2)
Don't discount this, I've found there what I couldn't find at iTunes or eBay (ex: Ibiza, vol.2 from '95). This alone makes them worthwhile and I would be very disappointed if the shutdown occurred.
Re:if it seems too good to be true (Score:2)
Re:if it seems too good to be true (Score:5, Informative)
No, they have a compulsory license based on russian law. They pay a pittance to some collection agency and in return operate legally, not in violation of russian copyright law. Sure, the RIAA are getting their panties in a bunch and it's a pretty huge loophole, but currently it's not illegal. That's why they're changing the law this autumn.
Re:if it seems too good to be true (Score:2)
The RIAA wears panties? You sure you're not confusing them with the MPAA?
Re:if it seems too good to be true (Score:3, Insightful)
They're complying with all applicable laws. And yes, contrary to the fud, the artists do get a cut. At least the ones that bother registering with the Russian authorities in order to collect do. Which is, you know, the law there. So how is this a loophole?
The RIAA doesn't like Russian copyright law, we understand that, but why should they think their opinion even matters here? The Russian Federation is a sovereign state, their laws are made by the Ru
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:if it seems too good to be true (Score:3, Informative)
Me, I'm not the one arguing for anything short of abolition of copyright. But I can understand why people support allofmp3 and such websites, and it is really simple: they put a pressure on "legal" distribution channels to drop the price to more reasonable levels. Piracy is also good for the same reason. Morally, I don't have problem with either. Legally, allompf3 is okay. What else matters?
Re:if it seems too good to be true (Score:2)
They are still called albums in the UK, and should be so elsewhere. An album is a collection of songs released together, regardless of media. After all, what are you going to call a download-only album, you can't call that a CD can you?
Re:if it seems too good to be true (Score:2)
You're picking one of several definitions, namely 2.b from the dictionary definition below. However that doesn't stop, for example 2.d, from also being correct. In any case, my point was that the term "album" is equally correct for vinyl "albums" as for CD "albums", I don't really care about the semantic roots of the word. You seem to be arguing that the term shouldn't have been used for vinyl "albums", but it's a few decades to late for that discussion.
Re:if it seems too good to be true (Score:5, Insightful)
mod parent up (Score:2)
You do not make unfair curtailment of people's rights go away by sucking up to your oppressors, that course of action is the surest way to signal your willningness to tolerate more oppression.
Re:mod parent up (Score:3, Interesting)
And no, I am
Re:if it seems too good to be true (Score:5, Interesting)
It is certainly not as important as civil rights. It is certainly not worth bankrupting families with ridiculous lawsuits. And its certainly not worth making the whole world bend over backwards to the whims of a few fatcats with an aging business model in a relatively small industry; compare the content industry to the technology industries that build devices for viewing/listening content, and they're a drop in the bucket. Its like a Flea barking orders at the dog.
With all the real problems in the world, it pisses me TF off watching a bunch of greedy millionaires complaining that they aren't able to screw over their customers like in the old days, suing kids and old ladies, and somehow trying to argue that piracy is robbing them of "potential revenue" that is orders of magnitude more than the total revenue of the entire industry.
Allofmp3.com is the best online music store. If they want to shut it down, all they need to do is bring up a "licensed" site with at least as big a selection, no DRM, and a fair price.
Fuck the WTO. Fuck them right in the ear. The W stands for "World", not "America" (and it definitely does not stand for that misguided retard in Washington...).
Re:if it seems too good to be true (Score:5, Insightful)
On a seperate rant: I guess the third possibility is that Russia's copyright laws are morally wrong and need to be changed. Hmmm... how could the RIAA & their Euro counterparts accomplish this?
I know!!1 By inviting Russia to join the WTO!.
For those of you who don't know, the WTO is like one big Westernized cluestick handcrafted by corporations w/the support of their (large) governments.
The RIAA/MPAA/Software industry would love to get Russia into the WTO and Eastern European (former Soviet) Countries into the EU, later into the WTO. Once they accomplish that, they can use their handcrafted cluestick to beat the laws of those countries into a nice compliant & westernized form.
Those untapped 'markets' can only be tapped if the legal, political and enforcement landscape is appropriate for the making of large quantities of money.
Re:desirable scenario (Score:2)
Re:desirable scenario (Score:3, Interesting)
This degree of agitprop is so deceitful that it rises above the regular level of BS and does real damage to the conversation. It has to be stopped. Lobbying included, the US's level of graft, legal or illegal is not even remotely as massive as the graft in Russia, China, and most third-world countries. Russia is a tru
Re:desirable scenario (Score:2)
Re:Where does the $.99 of itunes song go? (Score:2)
The music and film industry is not any more greedy than any other business. They do exactly what they are supposed to do, promote and protect their members interests and as long as the laws are the way they are, they have all the rights to do so.
If you don't like the price, buy something else. If you want a particular piece of music for some strange reason I don't understand and don't want to pay the price, YOU have a problem, not the industry.
I don't like the music industry and i haven't bough
Re:Where does the $.99 of itunes song go? (Score:3, Insightful)
RIAA is a monopoly and should be broken up as such.
Why is it illegal for American Car manufacturers to combine together to conduct shared research, while it is legal for Music morons to combine together to sue a 90 yrs old grandma?
Re:Where does the $.99 of itunes song go? (Score:3, Funny)
Just as well (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't listen to the US. Show a backbone like so few other countries have and tell Duhbya to fuck off already. Don't cooperate with the current administration one iota; wait and see what the 2008 election brings. Hopefully the next administration will be far less corrupt.
Re:Just as well (Score:4, Funny)
you are adorable.
Re:Just as well (Score:5, Insightful)
I live in Russia and I don't really want my country to join the WTO, and it's a very widespread attitude here. WTO imposes too much unpopular restrictions (for example, we'd have to raise internal prices on gas and petrol).
Re:Just as well (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Just as well (Score:4, Insightful)
the answer is north of michigan. (Score:2, Informative)
It is highly unlikely they will adopt such laws for the forseeable future, as this website basically said "yeah we know theyre lying their asses off"
Re:Just as well (Score:2)
illegal... how so? (Score:2, Funny)
unless it impacts on corporate America of course
A one world corporate government (Score:4, Insightful)
Our copyright system is very peculiar, but very good for business so it will be imposed on the whole world.
"It is totally unprecedented to have a pirate site operating so openly for so long," said Neil Turkewitz
It is only piracy according to our intellectual property laws, which have very little philosophical or pragamtic basis.
Re:A one world corporate government (Score:2)
It is not illegal in Russia (Score:2)
Dear US citizen, (Score:3, Insightful)
Dear non-US citizen, (Score:3, Funny)
> Dear US citizen,
> Who is running your country?
The same entities that will soon be running yours.
Perfect fit. (Score:5, Insightful)
With the way a lot of the music industry works, it looks like they'll fit right in.
"These collecting agencies are thieves and frauds because they accept money while pretending to represent artists", said Eric Baptiste
Yeah, well, pot, meet kettle, you two will get along fine.
communism (Score:4, Insightful)
anyways russians can always play the energy card, switch off gas to whole of europe and watch the shit hit the fan
Re:communism (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, and they could also cut off their noses to spite their faces. I don't think that allofmp3.com is going to replace the lost revenues of Russia's number one export.
Sucks for the WTO... (Score:2)
Re:Sucks for the WTO... (Score:2)
Yeah, right above that "big economic power" the Netherlands, and quite a bit behind that other "big economic power" Mexico. Link [nationmaster.com]. If we go by GNP, things are (as expected) even worse. By GNP, Russia is quite a bit below the Netherlands, and only a bit better than that "big economic power" Belgium. Link. [nationmaster.com]
Re:Sucks for the WTO... (Score:2)
i have to say as russian (Score:4, Interesting)
China (Score:3, Interesting)
As a career sideman, I feel no pain for the old industry passing (especially the lawyers), but the job of recording engineer is going the way of the hatmaker. Actually that analogy breaks down: The job of recording artist and recording engineer are being merged and will not pay very well. There used to be more work for painters, too.
OT: There's a bigger issue here about labor and specialization - the best singer I've ever knew (hits in the 60s) was taking an occasional plumbing job in the 80s and wasn't bitter: The way he put it was: $30 an hour. This while commanding $2-$4k for 20 - 40 oldies shows a year. I didn't quit playing during the 90s net boom and still work a lot now. I also stay buzzword compliant - this year: AJAX(ugh) and psych-folk(cool).
Why RIAA cannot demand closing this site (Score:4, Insightful)
Disturbing Trend (Score:3, Insightful)
english&dollars (Score:4, Interesting)
Russia has over 30 official languages, so maybe english(although its not one of official ones) is used just for compatibility reasons?
Perhaps dollars are used just to ease the price comparison against iTunes et al?
Re:english&dollars (Score:2)
Dollars aren't used in the UK, and English is the official language of a lot of countries other than "uk/usa" (a lot more than you probably think).
Russia has over 30 official languages, so maybe english(although its not one of official ones) is used just for compatibility reasons?
Russia has all those languages because it is an empire. Russian is the only official feder
Re:english&dollars (Score:3, Informative)
Not that I have a problem with it, either. Wonders of globalisation in action... =)
Maybe the US... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Maybe the US... (Score:4, Interesting)
Allofmp3: Completely Legal and Licensed (Score:3, Informative)
The only competition is in lossy formats (Score:5, Insightful)
Dixie Chicks: Taking The Long Way
#tracks: 14
Cost to purchase in crappy/lossy 192kb MP3 or AAC: $1.87
Cost to purchase in good lossy 320kB MP3 or AAC: $3.12
Cost to purchase lossless (flac, in this case): $8.78
Cost to purchase from Amazon, (lossless), with case, disc, and liner notes: $9.98
The difference between lossless at AllofMP3 and buying a physical disc is very small. It's not much of a bargain, quite honestly, to get the product from AllofMP3. It would make sense that to get a digital copy of the album from a US supplier would be less expensive than the physical article. Except, for some reason, it isn't. Somehow, the degraded quality copies cost more than the physical version here in the US (I'm assuming that iTunes is still 99c/track, or $13.86 for the whole album). They should be noticably less expense. That's what we were told when CDs were more expensive than cassette tapes: the CD, although less expensive to produce, provides a higher quality sound and therefore commands a premium price.
Once again, the RIAA seems to be paranoid that they might lose a stranglehold on the distribution system (i.e.: would have to compete).
I'm not saying that AllofMP3 are totally innocent here - they are just as guilty of exploiting the system as, say, the oil companies are of exploiting the increase in demand for oil, or small business owners buying a $50,000 Ford King Ranch pickup truck and writing it off on their taxes.
Re:The only competition is in lossy formats (Score:2)
Re:The only competition is in lossy formats (Score:2)
The point is that the RIAA could compete on price and offer a "legal" service at or near their current margins. $8.78 for a FLAC rip vs $9.99 (less physical production and shipping costs, plus b/w) for a clearly legal download from a US distributer? Sure, there will be a few skinflints that will go with the Russian site for $1 less, but wouldn't yoy buy direct for that money? I would.
That's the problem though. They (the RIAA approved outlets) are
Re:The only competition is in lossy formats (Score:2)
also much of the point of services like itunes and allofmp3 is you only purchase what you wan't not the filler you are forced to.
Re:The only competition is in lossy formats (Score:3, Funny)
Re:The only competition is in lossy formats (Score:3, Funny)
Saving money and avoiding potential DRM rootkits from an innocuous-looking CD from harming your PC? Priceless.
Nathan
For the record (Score:2, Insightful)
That's a bit misleading. The truth is it has both a Russian and English language option. First time users are able to select the langauge of their choice.
I'll be one of the first to admit that I buy songs from allofmp3.com. So far I've loaded my account with 10 dollars twice, and have maybe a couple bucks of that left. I have, from time to time, actually downloaded some of the Russ
Just an attribution gripe... (Score:2)
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/01/yourmoney/
I didn't read the NYT article but seeing that the author listed is from IHT I assume they've just syndicated it, in full hopefully.
Re:Just an attribution gripe... (Score:2)
This is why you will frequently see the same article printed in both papers.
It's not a piracy site... (Score:2)
I'm not 100% sure im right, if someone can confirm that this is how it work (or tell me im wrong) it would be great!
Wow (Score:5, Insightful)
The website seems pretty much legal to me (Score:2)
However I, as a Russian citizen believe that a very small percentage of Russian mp3 downloaders use the service. mp3s, movies, games and software are usually obtained in LANs (which also act as ISPs). My LAN for example has something like 2 terabytes of pirated content. Even people who can afford a licensed copy of Windows
Lets get it over with already! (Score:2, Funny)
World Police at it again (Score:4, Interesting)
WHAT THE F**K?!
I think America is getting too big for its boots lately, I won't mention Iraq, but they basically told the Swedes to shut down The Pirate Bay and now they think they can blackmail Russia too - and over such an important thing as the WTO?
OK then America, you shut down Microsoft or we'll kick you out of the UN.
Priorities? (Score:3, Insightful)
Although, maybe pirated MP3s are much more of an existensial threat than nuclear weapons.
It's ... illegal? (Score:2)
Ok, if da man says so, who am I to contradict him? Fire up Azureus and be a good citizen!
Is It Or Isn't It? (Score:4, Insightful)
The arguement that it is illegal or should be illegal because the Russian equivalent of the RIAA is NOT paying the artists does not make me a bad person for buying their products. If they aren't paying them...and nobody has produced any evidence that that have or have not...how does this make me in the wrong? I have no idea whether any store I have ever been too has justly compensated everyone back up the supply chain adequately if at all. If my job description is to include researching these things then the RIAA owes me a fortune for doing their work; and you had better believe I charge a fortune for my services.
Let's look at it from a different perspective. Shopping at this place is like going to the mall. It is out in the open. It operates like every other store in the mall. It has been there for several years. AND!...it even provides what looks to be like pretty legitimate documentation allowing it to be open. If I go down the causeway and eat at a restaurant that has done the same thing but has forged it's business license...is that something I should be taken to jail for? If I go into a clothing store and buy a couple of shirts and a pair of jeans...only to find out later that they are counterfeits, should I go to jail or be fined exhorbitant amounts? Here is another funny perspective on this. Over the years more and more companies have been offshoring..why? It is cheaper...not a little bit but bunches and bunches cheaper. We are told time and time again that it is WISE to patronize these other nations as they have a superior product to offer. In this case of MP3's, they are 100% correct. So what is the problem here? It would seem that they need to better police the Russian RIAA there.
Remember the time about 2 years ago when Chevy didn't pay the steelworkers for making the screws that hold radios in place in their cars and everybody who bought a car from Chevy between the dates of January and June of that year went to jail? Neither do I. Do you remember last year when the American cattle farmers didn't pay for the corn in the cows feed and everybody who bought beef last year had to pay a $25,000.00 fine? I don't either.
Now, if the site is legal, if I were the guy, guys, gal, or gals running this site I would sue the RIAA in court till they bled. Since the only thing it seems to understand is lawsuits...I would sue them, the people in it, any supporters of the RIAA and any others I may have forgotte right out of existence. The RIAA would become the multimedia version of SCO. A small little shadow of it's former self.
They, the RIAA, are screaming for this site to be shutdown. It is still up. I imagine it is legal and THAT is the whole problem here as far as they are concerned.
MADNESS!! (Score:5, Interesting)
Please explain to me how it is a recording industry group concerned about its monopoly could hold up a former world superpower, a nation of significant landmass, natural resources, goods, services and consumers, from joining the World Trade Organization?
While the WTO itself is a seperate subject of discussion, what part of reality did world leaders abandon to put such significance on any one single market as to exclude an entire nation's industry?
What a supereme coup these guys and their ilk have pulled off - the world now cow-tow to the notion owning and controlling ideas, instead of not just preserving and protecting, but fostering the creation of new ones. How shameful, and how disappointing, I see so little concern for this insane set of priorities.
Sorry for the bad spelling and words - I only started learning English 3-4 years ago. Ironically I started to learn so I could come to America, after reading my country man Alexis de Tocqueville and listening to my Dad's old college stories of how independant and voiceful Americans where - so why have not Americans been the first country to say no to what is clearly short sighted greed?
Re:MADNESS!! (Score:3, Funny)
Well, shit; we're getting around to it, ok? maybe we can work a little during the commerical breaks.
He, that little gecko sure cracks me up...
Re:Cannot legislate morals... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Cannot legislate morals... (Score:2)
Re:Cannot legislate morals... (Score:2)
Re:Cannot legislate morals... (Score:2)
Re:Cannot legislate morals... (Score:3, Insightful)
Besides, "theft" is a fairly wide definition that applies to more than just larceny. In US the theft of services is indeed considered theft and charged as larceny. If something as non-tangible as services can be stolen, surely the definition can extend to
Re:Cannot legislate morals... (Score:5, Insightful)
You stated that you have copied music before. Does that mean that you consider yourself a thief? Is the only thing that is stopping you from robbing stores the increased risk of being caught?
The problem is... (Score:2)
And this is what I'm talking about. (Score:5, Insightful)
Given that I have never purchased anything from AllOfMP3.com, I certainly have not broken any copyright, and I certainly will not go to jail for it. (Well... given the current political climate, the lack of commiting a crime is no guarantee of not going to jail for copyright violation.) But, somehow the "IP" zelots seem to think that recognizing Russia as a soveriegn nation makes you a criminal.
Seriously, until the "IP" folks can start to carry on conversations without seeing the boogie man around every corner, they cannot be taken seriously.
No it would not be the same. (Score:5, Insightful)
what they meant was to slander the idea of fair use and imply that it is immoral to do what the AHRA allows us to do in copying music with home recording devices and handing the tape off to friends. Just because it involves silicon and wires instead of dual cassette decks and magnetized ribbons doen't make it any different.
They continue to use this term to slander and demonize vast swaths of innocent people and innocent actions in their greedy pursuit of control, and do not have a right to use such slanderous language.
Re:Cannot legislate morals... (Score:2)
Re:Cannot legislate morals... (Score:3, Insightful)
Original bits are scarce. The problem is there is no good economic method yet to reconcile high costs to create with low cost to reproduce.
So the RIAA puts special limitations to make it scarse.
No the government elected by the people makes special limitations to create artificial scarcity of reproductions. You can say the politicians are in the pocketbook of the RIAA, but that is more a reflection of an apathetic voting po
Re:Cannot legislate morals... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Cannot legislate morals... (Score:4, Insightful)
If we had been able to download high quality DRM-free copies of the first ever series of star trek, and none of us had paid a penny for them, then the show would have made a huge loss. No series II, no Next Gen, No Voyager. Apply this to whatever music / movie / book you really like.
DRM sucks, but people enjoying content they dont pay for also sucks. In a capitalist system, its the payment in dollars from the consumer to the producer that enables the market to function. Take that away and the system will mean no more production.
Until now, its been academic, because with physical goods, free-riding wasnt possible. Now we live in an age where it IS possible for people not to pay for what they consume in some industries. There has to be a solution. I think DRM is a crap solution, but unfortunately I can't think of a better one that actually works, and removes the free-rider problem.
I Disagree (Score:5, Insightful)
Um, no. Depriving someone of their property seems very immoral, copying information not so much. In fact I argue that using the government force to prop up the business model that is scarcity of information is the behaviour that is immoral - unless you (anyone) have an arguement justifying the morality of using that force.
"Copyright infringement is still illegal, whether it's theft or not."
Yes, an since when is legality equilivant to morality? Since you bring legality up, I remind everyone that the copyright act could be repealed tommrow. Suddenly what was immoral yesterday would be totally ok today?
"The whole 'copyright infringement isn't theft' thing seems to be a crutch of an argument people fall on to ignore the issue."
Not so much as a crutch as they are very different things. As I said above, I think the concept of copyright (i.e. using government to enforce a scarsity of information business model) is itself of dubious morality when applied to individuals (which is a recent phenomenon). I have near nil hesitation over copying information, i have large hestitation over taking or depriving someone of their property - that is the difference and it is huge.
Re:I Disagree (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I Disagree (Score:3, Insightful)
Steal a CD, get a small fine and perhaps a short jail stay. A recent copyright bill [digg.com] suggests 10 year prison terms for attempting to download a movie (i.e., not even fully committing the crime!).
Someone on Digg suggested murdering the person who is about to turn you in for copyright violation, as that only carries a 5 year prison sentence.
Back in merry old England, pickpockets were put to death if convicted. This only served
Re:Cannot legislate morals... (Score:2)
--- on Slashdot.
The association in the public mind of copyright infringement with theft goes back to a time when the Black Flag was still flying over the Carribbean. It is too solidy anchored now to be dislodged. That is why warez sites are given names like The Pirate Bay and the NET (No Electronic Theft) Act sails through Congress.
Re:Cannot legislate morals... (Score:2)
Generally when people use the word "theft", what they really mean is "I think infringment is as bad as actual theft", which is just an opinion that's not worht arguing about.
(And thanks to the NET Act, copyright infringment is a more serious crime than actual larceny.)
Can I legislate away ignorance? (Score:2)