Slashdot Log In
Bloggers 1, Smoke-Filled Room 0
Posted by
kdawson
on Wed Aug 30, 2006 04:01 PM
from the mister-can-i-have-some-pork dept.
from the mister-can-i-have-some-pork dept.
MarkusQ writes "A few days ago a bi-partisan bill (PDF) to create a searchable on-line database of government contracts, grants, insurance, loans, financial assistance, earmarks and other such pork was put on 'secret hold' using a procedure that does not appear to be mentioned in the Constitution or in the Senate bylaws. This raised the ire of bloggers left and right and started an all out bi-partisan effort to expose the culprit by process of elimination. As it turns out it was our old friend the right honorable Senator from Alaska, Mr. 'Series of Tubes', Ted 'Bridge to Nowhere' Stevens."
Related Stories
[+]
Entertainment: How The Internet Works - With Tubes 664 comments
Chardish writes "In an attempt to explain his reasons for voting against a Net Neutrality bill this past Thursday, Alaska Senator Ted Stevens delivered a jaw-dropping attempt to explain how the Internet works. Said Stevens: 'They want to deliver vast amounts of information over the internet. And again, the internet is not something you just dump something on. It's not a truck. It's a series of tubes. And if you don't understand those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line and its going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material.'"
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
Ackthpt's Theorem (Score:5, Insightful)
It is said: Power corrupts, while absolute power corrupts absolutely.
My theorem: The longer any party or group remains in power the closer they come to corrupt.
While some may draw a bead on Mr. Stevens and his 37 years in office. Remember pork is often a reward for having been loyal at some point. It's not simply Sen. Ted Stevens rolling up his sleeves for a reach into the Pork Barrel, but his reward for long, loyal service to his contemporaries. There's doubtless a bit of influence due to his seniority, but he's been a good soldier when his party has needed some. We can expect a lot of red faces when same bi-partisan muck-rakers get their hands on the online database and equally glib Senators and Representatives have to answer for decades of funny business which has passed beneath the radar in a long game of "I'll scratch your back, if you scratch mine."
Re:Ackthpt's Theorem (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree wholeheartedly. My new policy on voting is to always vote out an incumbent, unless I've been especially happy with his performance. If the whole country did that (especially on the national level, but also on the local level), I believe we'd have a lot fewer issues with corrupt politicians.
But then again, what to I know... I'm just a lowly working class citizen.
Parent
Re:Ackthpt's Theorem (Score:5, Insightful)
The ability to be re-elected is supposed to be a check on such behavior; it is supposed to incentivize good performance by offering an extension. Unfortunately, when the majority doesn't care enough about what's being done in office to know a person's track record, that incentive isn't worth much.
Parent
Re:Ackthpt's Theorem (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course personally I'm most happy when they pass as few laws as possible, unless they are to reduce the governments power or unact some stupid law.
Parent
Re:Ackthpt's Theorem (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Best said... (Score:5, Insightful)
Alexis de Tocqueville said it best, at the time of Our Great Country's inception:
The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money.
Parent
Progress by Repealing Stupidity 2006! (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Progress by Repealing Stupidity 2006! (Score:5, Interesting)
Another R.A.Heinlein idea independently arrived, heh .. his idea was to form a third house of Congress whose job was simply to repeal laws.
Parent
Re:Ackthpt's Theorem (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is the problem with pork: it does something for the local people and businesses.
The money ought to come from Alaska's state budget. I hope that's obvious. But it's a lot harder to find $223 million in a state's budget than in the fed's. Pretty much the only way Alaska could come up with that money is to increase taxes. There's no way that Alaskan taxpayers would approve a tax increase for such a stupid cause. So instead the politicians try to get the money from the fed's budget, where $223 mil is a drop in the bucket. It's essentially "free money" for a state like Alaska: of that entire sum, I'd be surprised if more than $1 mil came from Alaska due to its low population and relatively small economy.
Remember also that if all pork were eliminated, the feds could lower the income tax rate and not "lose money" (i.e. the deficit wouldn't increase). States could then institute or increase local income taxes without affecting the overall tax burden at all. The added revenues could be directed to improving schools, paying cops better wages, fixing the roads, etc. And because it's local politicians making those decisions and not Congressmen who've never even been to Alaska, the politicians can be more easily held accountable. (If a Senator from Massachusetts votes to reduce federal funding to the state of Alaska, there's absolutely nothing that Alaskan voters can do about it.)
I do get the impression that your tongue was at least partly in your cheek, but I wanted to make sure folks know why pork is bad. If you look at the list of pork projects, none of the seem bad... until you start to wonder why a taxpayer in Minnesota should have to pay to maintain local roads in Pennsylvania.
Parent
Re:Ackthpt's Theorem (Score:5, Informative)
On some level that's true, but is it an informed opinion? Are you aware that basically Alaska doesn't have any taxes [bankrate.com]?
In fact, Alaska gives away money to residents [state.ak.us] due to its huge oil surplus.
But they still want everybody else's money for their pork.
Parent
Re:Ackthpt's Theorem (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh, by the way, know what the top story on the front page of the Ketchikan Daily News was today? Apparently the $230,000,000 estimate for building the bridge was off by a bit and they're now saying it will take $328,000,000 to build the bridge they plan on building. Meanwhile about half of the money allocated for the bridge last year is now gone, used to pay for other transportation projects in Alaska after the earmarks were removed from the funding about a month after the first package passed. I wouldn't be surprised if, by the time it's done, we wind up calling it the Billion Dollar Bridge.
Parent
Re:Ackthpt's Theorem (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
The other white meat. (Score:5, Insightful)
The Knick Arm bridge is seen as a shot in the arm for local developers and construction critters. Remember, pretty much the only economic engines in Alaska are Oil and Government. Nothing else but a bunch of trees, rocks and the occasional brown bear.
So they bring in the Pork. Christ, half of Anchorage is named Ted Stevens this or Ted Stevens that. It's a GOOD thing. Really. It's representative government at its finest....
The other way to look Mssrs. Stevens and Young is that they are pretty cheap dates. For one genuine vote in the House or Senate, you need only to bribe a couple hundred thousand people. You got the money, honey, they've got the time.
Parent
Re:The other white meat. (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:The other white meat. (Score:5, Interesting)
Ouch!
It is sometimes said that the American political system, while good in structure, has become so beholden to money and self-interest that it is now one of the worst of the Western democracies.
For example, you have Jesse Helmes who was prepared to inflict terrible things on people in other countries to save a few jobs or a bit of pork in his own district (eg. tobacco). The companies involved rewarded him with the money to advertise, and the voters were prepared to sacrafice many people they couldn't see in the name of their (or their neighbors) self interest.
Now, the fact that you think this is a GOOD thing REALLY scares me.
Parent
Re:The other white meat. (Score:5, Insightful)
And the only way to get rid of this, is to dry up the 'well'.
First, Let's not give the feds taxes directly!! They should have to depend fully on the states for their finances. This would not only help dry up 'pork' funds, but, might would also cut out what I find to be one of the nastiest things, having the Feds take tax dollars, then use them as blackmail over the states in order to get them to legislate laws the Feds really should have no power over. Witholding hwy funds really chaps my ass, and it is their fav. thing to do.
Lastly, the more I hear about it, maybe we need to go back to having the Senators appointed by the state's legislature rather than general elections, that would keep them more loyal to their state's interest, rather than the national political parties' interests.
Parent
Re:The other white meat. (Score:5, Informative)
Been tried before. It was called the Articles of Confederation. It turned out that (suprise suprise) no one would give any money to the federal government and that provided for an crippled central government. No money means no central military, which means no defense (state militias cannot compare to a central military, there just is not enough cohesion), which means, eventually, no country....
The whole issue of states rights has been debated throughout American history as well. In fact, we had a little tussle over it in the middle of the 19th century.
Parent
Re:Ackthpt's Theorem (Score:5, Interesting)
It is said: Power corrupts, while absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I would argue that a more accurate saying would be: "power attracts the corrupt. Absolute power attracts the corrupt irresistably".
The longer any party or group remains in power the closer they come to corrupt.
...because that means the corrupt have had that much longer to maneuver their way into power within the party or group. Changing ruling parties/groups frequently means a lot of corrupt power-brokering ends up being wasted maneuvering to power within a group that no longer has any externally.
Or as my great grandfather liked to say, "political parties are like old socks: if you don't change them often enough, they get so they smell"
Having just two isn't that much better. Because "the corrupt" can do well for themselves by maneuvering to power within either one of them.
Parent
Re:Ackthpt's Theorem (Score:5, Informative)
While this concept is, as moderated "interesting" in some respect, it has been controlled for in famous and fundamental experiments which to the contrary, strongly support that it is in fact power which corrupts. The Stanford Prison Experiment is certainly the most famous and instructive. For recent interpretations of this and related work, try consulting Zimbardo [prisonexp.org].
I've spent a lot of time around politicans, their staff, and their active supporters, at the national level in the U.S. Most people get into politics at this level with altruistic intentions. I am political and partisan personally, but however entirely I disagree with the other side's interpretation of the world, I respect that people on the other side are involved because they truly believe they are in the right. No, I'm serious. New Members of Congress especially come in with full heads of do-gooder steam.
It doesn't take long for most of them to compromise so much that, from the outside looking in, it would appear they have been corrupted. Some never slide all the way into vote trading, nepotistic business-as-usual, but they are in the minority and either end up as failures or highly respected successes. IOW the mainstream, beaten path in a position of power is a corrupt one.
Most people entering any path will walk right up the middle of it, even if they are natural leaders. Newton's first law: it's not only mechanics ... and power: it corrupts; when absolute, absolutely. BG
Parent
Re:Ackthpt's Theorem (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:Ackthpt's Theorem (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:One man's Pork is another man's Job Well Done (Score:5, Informative)
That might be true if Alaska had a federal tax deficit, but they don't. According to The Tax Foundation [taxfoundation.org], Alaska paid a total of about $4.1 billion in federal taxes in 2004 but received about $8.4 billion in federal spending. The only state to get a higher return on its tax dollars was New Mexico ($9.2 billion out and $19.9 back). A lot of that, of course, is precisely because Alaska's Congresscritters are so good at bringing home the pork.
Parent
Re:Seeber's Theorem (Score:5, Informative)
In case you're not aware, frictional unemployment refers to unemployment that is the result of "shopping around." When you look for a job, you typically have several leads but unless you're absolutely desperate for income, you're unlikely to take the first job offered to you -- you'll look around, see what else is available, see if there's anything better. On the other side of the fence, employers do the same thing: they don't take the first job applicant that responds, but instead shop around for a while to see who the best applicant is. How long this process lasts depends on how badly the worker needs a job and how badly the employer needs an employee. Frictional unemployment is not the only kind of unemployment. Obviously, you can have unemployment as a result of structural changes in the economy (buggy whip manufacturers, for example, had a needless skillset after the rise of the automobile, and were thus structurally unemployed) and unemployment due to overall poor economic conditions, but it is important to recognize that even if everything is completely hunky-dory in the economy and there is a job for everyone, there will still be a certain amount of frictional unemployment.
The result is that 100% employment is not an achievable goal, so instead economists talk about full employment as meaning the full natural rate of employment, not including people who are frictionally unemployed. I believe full employment in the US is estimated to be around 95% of the labour force.
Of course, 95% of the population is not employed, but it's important again to realise that a large percentage of the population is not considered part of the labour force by economists. People in the labour force include people working and people looking for work -- something like only 60% of the US is employed at any given time, but that's because there are lots of children, old people, students, bums, and other folks that for whatever reason are not actively seeking employment. They are not considered "unemployed" by economists because they are not participating in the labour market.
Further, consider that the Fed is helpless to do anything at all about structural unemployment, which results when the structure of the economy changes and results in people being unemployed because their skillset is no longer required by the labour market (the aforementioned buggy whip manufacturers lost their jobs for this reason.) Structural unemployment is a reality in a dynamic economy -- those VAX/VMS experts are out of a job these days, unless they learned some other, more marketable skill in the meantime. The Fed is helpless to stop this, so when they talk about bringing about full employment, you have to be fair and recognize that there are some kinds of employment they can't do anything about, nor should they be expected to.
What they can help with is cyclical unemployment, at least theoretically. Cyclical unemployment is a result of the natural recession-boom-peak-bust cycle: during a recession, people lose their jobs. The fed can temper how eratic the business cycle is with countercyclic monetary policy. When we enter a recession, the fed generally buys US treasury securities on the open market, and when we enter a boom, they sell them. This stimulates the economy during a recession and tempers it during a boom (because when the fed "buys" something, it creates money out of thin a
Parent
Scoreboard is a Little Off (Score:5, Insightful)
Smoke-Filled Room 0
Look, this is great, go bloggers, hurray for our side. But I've gotta say, "Smoke-Filled Room 0" is a tad optimistic. I mean, if only, right?
Re:Scoreboard is a Little Off (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Scoreboard is a Little Off (Score:4, Funny)
Now, maybe his wife was a very nasty person, but when an 83-year old man thinks that the saddest day of his life is not getting Exxon into a wildlife preserve....
Parent
Re:Scoreboard is a Little Off (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Scoreboard is a Little Off (Score:5, Insightful)
I have also never known a man who has lost his wife and didn't grieve.
Parent
It had to be put on hold... (Score:4, Funny)
I believe he'll still be waiting when hell freezes over.
No Shit, Sherlock? (Score:4, Insightful)
When I first heard about this thing, my immediate thought was "it's gotta be that fuckhead from Alaska. Wait -- he couldn't possibly be that stupid, could he?
It's a little alarming that there might have been that many better suspects than him to investigate first. But I guess that's become the point of the Senate these days: a high-pressure hose of pork-barrel cash back to your home state. Keep the money rolling in and your head down, and you can stay there apparently forever.
Re:No Shit, Sherlock? (Score:4, Interesting)
I think it's terrible too. But reading the article something else struck me.
Doesn't it give someone entirely too much power to let a single Senator be able to block and entire bill indefinatly and anonymously? Isn't the whole point of a body like the Senate to make multiple people have to agree on something so one lone quack can't screw things up like this?
Alaskins... PLEASE tell me you are doing something about this guy.
Parent
Re:No Shit, Sherlock? (Score:4, Informative)
The reason for these holds is that Senate rules require unanimous consent to put something to a vote. It's basically a way of saying "Some of us haven't made up our minds yet." Without such a rule, you'd could easily have Senators forcing votes on issues that the potential opposition hasn't had time to consider. Expect to hear something like this from Sen. Stevens.
Clearly, it is being abused in this case, but I just wanted to make it clear that these rules exist for basically good reasons.
Parent
Re:No Shit, Sherlock? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Here's The Icing On The Cake (Score:5, Interesting)
Turns out he's just concerned that this bill would cost too much of the good American taxpayers' money. [tpmmuckraker.com]
Seriously--the man deserves his seat in Congress, if only for being able to sling such profoundly obvious bullshit with a perfectly straight face.
Re:Here's The Icing On The Cake (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Here's The Icing On The Cake (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, that would have to be the world's most expensive ferry service on a per passenger basis before that argument holds water; by several orders of magnitude.
223 million dollars is a lot of money, which would certainly pay for a lot of ferry operations many times over if invested at a normal rate of return. And that's assuming we need to give free ferry service; ferries normally charge tolls which cover their operating expenses.
If you don't believe that, consider this: The ferry in question serves 50 people, and covers one mile. It's probably a rather small and slow ferry. By way of contrast, Woods Hole, Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket Steamship Authority serves on the order of 160,000 residents of Martha's Vinyard and Nantucket, with routes that go from about two miles to something around twenty. This means they run very large ferries and run them frequently. The Authority's operating budget is $69 million dollars, and it serves 3,200 times the residents over many times the distance. And it pays for itself.
But in this "short-term" only country of the USofA, it's not surprising everyone's seeing the expenses up-front and not the savings down the line.
I love it when Republicans sound like deranged Democrats. Even accepting your dubious proposition, where would the Federal Government be if Uncle Sam pulled out his checkbook and funded every project on the basis that it creates long term cost savings for somebody (other than Uncle Sam)? That's the sort of thing you're supposed to fund with bonds.
As a liberal Democrat, I'm not against investing Federal money in communities in every case of course. But such investments should serve larger national purpose. This project is to benefit certain individuals, not the nation at large. And (surprise) it's not the residents of the Island. It's for the benefit of politically connected developers who want to make a buck treating the Federal budget as their personal piggybanks.
Parent
Bravo!! (Score:4, Funny)
From the Wikipedia Article (Score:5, Insightful)
And the best part is... (Score:5, Interesting)
The thing I like best about this story is that its part of a larger reframing of the conflict, from a red-team vs. blue-team battle where you're stuck choosing the lesser of two evils to a more clear-cut battle between We The People and those who would like to take advantage of us.
As a life long Republican that can't stand Bush, I probably have deep ideological difference with half (or more) of the people who worked on this, but I respect not only their right to hold opinions that differ from mine, but to know where their tax dollars are going, and who doesn't want them to know.
--MarkusQ
Yea for Blongers??? (Score:5, Informative)
That's according to an Aug. 18 article in the Fort Smith (Ark.) Times Record:
One of the senators most criticized for his personal projects, Sen. Ted Stevens, R-Alaska, has a hold of his own on Coburn's bill to make public the spending patterns of the government. Called the Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act, the legislation calls for the creation of a database open to the public where citizens can track government spending.
"He's the only senator blocking it," Coburn said of Stevens.
Coburn's office was not available for comment this evening.
The article has gone largely unnoticed in recent days, as hundreds of bloggers and blog-readers (at TPMm and elsewhere) have called Senate offices in an effort to determine who placed the "secret" hold on Coburn's bill. The piece does not turn up in a Nexis search, although it is in Google.
Stevens has been the odds-on favorite since the hunt for the Holder Who Dare Not Speak His Name began.
But did he really do it? Well, he had a motive: As the paper and others have noted, Stevens and Coburn have clashed before -- in particular over Stevens' now-legendary "bridge to nowhere." Coburn attempted (and failed) to block the $233 million boondoggle. And revenge certainly fits the senior Alaskan's m.o. "Stevens can play rough," the Seattle Times noted in June. "Despite denials from his staff, he retaliates - and doesn't mind waiting years to do so."
Stevens' office has so far refused to comment on the hold. Ninety-five other senators have confirmed they were not responsible.
Ok, but.... (Score:4, Insightful)
These people need to go to jail. How do we get them there?!?!
rhY
Call and politely complain (Score:4, Informative)
The Honorable Ted Stevens
United States Senate
522 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20510
(202) 224-3004
(202) 224-2354 FAX
He's also Mr Broadcast Flag, and Mr Web Censorship (Score:5, Interesting)
More information at the EFF [eff.org]. Please write to your senator [eff.org], and tell them to stand against Steven's bill.
For Ya'all Who Don't Know Ted Stevens (Score:5, Funny)
0 to 1???? (Score:4, Funny)
On the other hand, you have bloggers. The name alone says enough about their power, prestige and effectiveness.
I'd say the scores are more like: Bloggers 1, Smoke-filled room 9,000,000,000.
Re:smoke filled room? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Wha??? (Score:4, Informative)
Its a quid pro quo type of "good old boy" agreement among those in the majority party.
Parent
Re:Wha??? (Score:5, Informative)
To answer your question, it doesn't happen constantly because if it did the hold system wouldn't be an effective means of negotiations. The senate would constantly be in filibuster (if the people issuing holds follow through on their threats) and voting for cloture (to end the debate). It works because in general the senate at least wants to appear to get things done--and perhaps actually wants to get things done--and not waste a bunch of time on filibusters and attempted filibusters.
Parent
More on Senatorial holds (Score:5, Interesting)
Furthermore a "hold" is not secret to everyone; otherwise it would be pointless. The Senate leader is informed by the cloakroom that Senator so-and-so has placed a hold on Bill X. And it's rarely a "secret" within the halls of the Senate who placed the hold and why...it typically flows from dissention that is already there. Most Senators and staff can guess or find out who placed the hold. That does not mean they will share it with the public.
The hold process is just one of many ways the Senate operates to get things done. There are finely graded degrees of escalation in a debate--necessary in a legislative body that can be stopped cold by any one person. Think of the filibuster as a nuke and you'll start to get it...there needs to be many levels of diplomatic tools below that, or shit will blow up too easily.
The "hold" is just one of those tools--a way for a Senator to demonstrate that they are more than a little unhappy, and to slow down the process until they are satisfied. It's effective precisely because it usually is back-channel...so it avoids pointless public posturing, and allows the people to compromise out of the public eye. This is not always a bad thing...think of the difference between how people act in normal life and how they act on a reality TV show. Putting people under the microscope 100% of the time distorts their decision-making process. The Constitution doesn't require all deliberation to be open. Our system of government calls for the election of leaders, and allows us to petition them. But it is designed, on purpose, to provide some insulation for the elected leaders.
Parent
Re:Well, (Score:4, Informative)
This will be unnecessary as Sen. Stevens is not expected to run for re-election in 2008. He is expected to retire at age 85.
Parent