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Six Bomb Blasts Around Central London

Posted by Zonk on Thu Jul 07, 2005 07:00 AM
from the respectful dept.
M3rk1n_Muffl3y writes "There were six explosions around London this morning. Information is still emerging, but looks like there were bombs detonated on a bus near Russel Square and several others on the Underground around the City and King's Cross. It's been difficult to reach people on their mobiles."
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  • by MoonFog (586818) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:04AM (#13001444)
    Source [sky.com]

    A previously unknown group calling itself "Secret Organisation al Qaeda in Europe" said it carried out the attacks.
    My thoughts go out to everyone in London!
      • by meringuoid (568297) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:38AM (#13001825)
        Bear in mind that after any major incident a lot of different groups are going to claim the credit, in order to increase their own profile - kind of a malign game of 'I'm Spartacus!' Some group in Jordan claimed responsibility for the New York attacks in 2001 - then quickly retracted their claim, presumably when some higher-up in the group found out about it and realised what it had done to his life expectancy ;-)

        I'm still wondering whether it's some IRA faction, personally. These don't seem to have been really big bombs - we're seeing lots of wounded, not many dead. Jihadists tend to go for the big bodycount, while the Irish terrorists always preferred to cause disruption wherever possible. Although comparatively few are known dead - fewer than, say, Omagh, and so far nowhere near the bombings in Madrid or Bali - it has ruined all business in London today, and possibly tomorrow.

        One final puzzle: why didn't they do this yesterday? Bombing the Tube yesterday morning would surely have scuppered the Olympic bid...

      • What fascinatingly reckless and uninformed speculation. Why not just say "I am completely ignorant of any facts in this matter." It is easier to type and gets your point across a lot quicker.

      • People were starting to empathise with them, starting to move forward from Sept 11 and requesting removing troops from the middle east. Now they go around killing people all over again.

        Actually, that is probably why they attacked. It is much harder to recruit impressionable teens into your organization when there is no polarizing force (read: military occupation) in place. Terrorist groups rely on continued escalation by US/UK as a selling point for joining their organization. The terrorists thrive on this scenario:

        1) Attack civilians
        2) Wait for retaliation
        3) Use collateral damage as a rallying point to increase membership
        4) GOTO 1

        I truly believe that if we left Iraq tomorrow, the insurgency would collapse in a short time because they'd have no real reason to exist. The true terrorists would have no freedom fighter status in which to cloak themselves, and the nationalist insurgents would likely turn against the terrorists.
      • by squiggleslash (241428) on Thursday July 07 2005, @08:05AM (#13002153) Homepage Journal
        There are relatively few confirmed deaths and casualties. It's known by everyone on the ground, so far as I can see, that the figures are much higher, it's just the government can't say "400 people are dead" until it has a chance to examine 400 bodies.

        Anarchist groups haven't been involved in terrorism since the nineteenth Century and it's hard to believe they'd suddenly start now.

        I don't know if it's Al Qaeda (my understanding is that the latter is more an umbrella term anyway, see here [guardian.co.uk] for an interesting discussion, the four or so paragraphs starting from "That would seem to cut out Asimov"), but that said, the only other movement I can see engaging in terrorism in Britain would be some sort of break-away Irish group, a disaffected wing of the IRA or something, and I really don't recall the IRA ever doing anything so big. Their worst attrocities were two incidents where they blew up pubs.

        Realistically, Bin Laden's groups are the only likely culprits at this stage. I'm not sure I want to be proven wrong, because we'd be seeing a substantial new terrorist movement, be it the revival of a more extreme IRA or a third group.

  • Responsibility (Score:5, Informative)

    by Simon (S2) (600188) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:05AM (#13001447) Homepage
    BBC News have reports on Spiegel Online that is displaying [spiegel.de] the text that Al Qaeda has claimed responsibility for today's attacks in London.

    (translation [spiegel.de])
  • by dj_paulgibbs (619622) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:05AM (#13001452)
    London Underground - ALL suspended until further notice (not likely to be today) It is advised NOT to travel into London Marylebone, Cannon Street, Liverpool Street, Kings Cross, St Pancras, Euston, Victoria, Paddington, and Charing Cross are all closed until further notice Thameslink Rail services are not running AT ALL. Brighton and East Croydon stations are closed due to a security alert. According to National Rail Enquiries, Southern trains services are running "normal" services OUT OF LONDON only. Gatwick Express is still running but terminating at Clapham Junction. Heathrow Express has been terminated until further notice. It seems trains are running as far as Clapham Junction. Stations are being periodically closed and re-opened after they have been security checked so do call National Rail enquiries to check your journey first. Trains are of course going to be delayed by varying amounts as a result. Checking your journey by calling national rail enquiries is of course recommended - 08457 484950 option 2 Websites - http://www.networkrail.co.uk/ [networkrail.co.uk] and particularly http://nrekb.com/london_underground.html [nrekb.com]
  • Mobiles (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Zouden (232738) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:05AM (#13001455)
    The BBC is speculating that the reason it's been difficult to reach people on their mobiles is because the government switched the network off, in anticipation of phone-triggered bombs.
    This is apparently part of the government's planned response to this sort of situation (the bombs in Madrid were triggered by mobile phone).
    • Re:Mobiles (Score:5, Informative)

      by ettlz (639203) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:09AM (#13001494) Homepage Journal
      The Government switches off mobiles in London automatically in any state of emergency (terror-related or otherwise) to keep the spectrum free for the emergency services. (See, for example, the Channel 4 documentary Mark Thomas's Secret Map of Britain.)
  • FYI... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Noryungi (70322) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:05AM (#13001457) Homepage Journal
    Vodafone and others have warned that emergency services will have priority on the GSM networks. Expect congestion and unreachable people if you try to join them on their cell phones.

    Londoners have been warned to stay at home. Commuters have been warned to avoid London.
  • Wow. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ironwill96 (736883) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:07AM (#13001483) Homepage Journal
    I'm amazed at how /.ers make jokes about everything, including people dying in terrorist attacks. We didn't find it very funny when someone crashed planes into our skyscrapers but when Europeans die it's a joke?

    Let's be a little bit considerate. Not all /.ers are U.S., i'm sure we have lots of British readers here.
    • Re:Wow. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by AccUser (191555) <mhg AT taose DOT co DOT uk> on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:17AM (#13001600) Homepage
      Cracking jokes in stressful situations is known to help people cope. My wife used to work in Accident & Emergency, and from the things she told me, Paramedics have the sickest sense of humour.
    • Re:Wow. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by tgd (2822) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:23AM (#13001684)
      People die in a lot of ways.

      More people, statistically, will die today on US highways than have been reported so far in London.

      An order of magnitude more will die of smoking related diseases in the US.

      Even more will die of starvation globally. Or natural causes.

      People make jokes about things that stress them out. Its how people cope, and people shouldn't be made to feel bad about it. Its human nature. Its the political correctness bullshit that its somehow wrong that keeps people from dealing with this kind of emotional stress. Joking is a BIG part of getting past things like that.

      Yes, it may be insensitive, but you can't think of a thing to say that isn't going to offend someone somewhere.
    • Re:Wow. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Kidbro (80868) <dibbe AT linux DOT nu> on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:36AM (#13001802)
      I am European. I am an ex resident of London, and I have friends in London.
      And yes, I'm making jokes about it.
      Making jokes about something does not mean you don't take it seriously. Neither does it mean you disrespect anybody. It just means that you, for a moment, want to make someone laugh.

      Yes, I made jokes about 9/11. I made jokes about when 60 people died in a fire in the house next to mine, and I made jokes about when a colleague I really liked killed himself in car crash (yes, it was most definitely his own fault).

      If you think that means these people are "just a joke" to me, you... I lack the words, even - it's that stupid.
  • by wazzzup (172351) <astromac@@@fastmail...fm> on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:08AM (#13001486)
    We stand and mourn with you today. I am truly sorry for the losses you have incurred and weep with you in this terrible moment.

    I hope someday my children will understand terrorism as a savage relic of the past but I do not hold much hope for that.

    Be strong people of England.
  • by Codeala (235477) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:09AM (#13001492)
    The latest news directly from the ad-free and registration-free BBC:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/uk/2005/london _explosions/ [bbc.co.uk]

    (/. don't allow me to post anonymously...)
  • by white1827 (848173) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:09AM (#13001500) Homepage
    To preface, we here in the US are certainly sending our thoughts and prayers to the UK today. However, I am disappointed to hear that the stock markets are selling off just because of terrorism. This sort of mindless panic is exactly what they are trying to achieve. To truly defeat terrorism, we have to learn to chin up and plod onward with our lives. If we cower in fear and panic, we allow them to win.
  • As it breaks... (Score:5, Informative)

    by irokie (697424) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:10AM (#13001510) Homepage
    Been following this for the last 3 hours.
    Apparently the Army are now on the streets of london, trying to help EMTs get to the injured, there's a train full of people still stuck underground. Public transport hs been shutdown in London and people are being advised to stay where they are and not go into the city.
    Reports are that there were 6 bombs, 3 on buses and 3 on subway trains.

    Tony Blair is on his way back to London from the G8 summit in Edinburgh

    Allegedly, al Qa'eda are claiming responsibility, but i haven't been able to find a definite source on this.

    BBC.co.uk has been swamped, but news.bbc.co.uk is still available (last i checked)

    This pisses me off royally... London was set to celebrate getting the Olympics today, huge open air celebrations, but that's all been cancelled. With all the humanitarian work that's been happening in the last weeks, you'd think that malcontents would be a little less belligerent. Progress is being made.
    Now the British (who have masses of experience dealing with terrorists) will be pissed off, and the Americans have an excuse to throw their weight around even more...

    Also, from talking to people in a few places, everyone seems to be thinking "Are we next?". Yes the British went into Iraq and Afghanistan, but they're been fairly well controlled for the most part. This is extremism at its worst. I don't want to kill the people who did this, i want to slap them in the face and tell them to cop themselves on... this is exactly the opposite of progress.
  • Some details (Score:5, Informative)

    by LizardKing (5245) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:11AM (#13001525) Homepage

    I was in the midst of this when it happened. The Metropolitan line was halted, then the Jubilee. The train driver announced a "power surge on the combine", which is probably a prearranged message to prevent panic in an emergency. Trains were then brought into the nearest station and the passengers requested to evacuate. The tube staff were very calm and efficient, and I didn't see any panic. There was defnitely a sense that something unusual had happened, and people were mostly silent as we filed out to the sound of recorded evacuation messages.

    Anyone trying to contact friends and relatives, please don't panic if you cannot get through. the cellphone networks are being taking in and out of public service so that the emergency services can use them reliably. Same may be true for regular phone lines.

    • Re:Some details (Score:5, Informative)

      by ynnaD (700908) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:32AM (#13001773)
      I too was on the tube when this all happened, and can confirm the above.

      I was on the central line eastbound going from oxford circus at about 09:20, and there was an announcement that due to a suspect package Bank and one other station was closed. On the next stop the driver then announced that the whole underground system was closed to a power failure and asked everybody to leave the station immediately.

      Afterwards, found that my mobile did not work at all. I walked back to victoria station to try and catch a train home and found it closed off. One of the policemen there said that the mobile network had been closed in london (hence a lot of people using phone boxes), and that all public services were cancelled.

      I managed to then walk down to clapham junction and catch a train home from there.
  • Watch the Law (Score:5, Interesting)

    by FrostedWheat (172733) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:12AM (#13001533)
    It will be interesting to see how the government reacts to this. I'm almost certain they will use this to push through laws like the ID cards and maybe even worse.
  • Clever (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BigBadBus (653823) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:12AM (#13001538) Homepage
    Whomever did this was very clever. If you look at a map of the London underground/subway, the bombs have taken out all the tube lines in Central London. In effect, the transport network has been crippled.

  • Mind you, it's not much of a difference from the days when terrorists would go to dinners at the White House, to fundraise [google.co.uk], and use the hundreds of thousands of dollars given by misguided "Irish" Americans to buy guns and bombs to kill innocent UK civilians in pubs, bars, shops, and town centres [bbc.co.uk].
    Seems to have gone out of favour after 11th Sept 01. Funny how it's not funny when it starts happening to you, isn't it?
    • by kahei (466208) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:52AM (#13001995) Homepage

      FFS man, have you been asleep??

      The IRA are noble freedom fighters who are combating oppression by striking at the heart of their oppressors, and that's why the USA has generously aided their noble cause.

      Al-Qaeda are evil terrorists who are spreading misery by targeting civilians and landmarks, and that's why the USA has nobly opposed their evil agenda.

      Could the difference BE more obvious? They don't even wear the same headgear; the IRA typically wear balaclavas because they are a perfectly sensible measure to avoid vicious British retaliation, and Al-Qaeda typically wear scarfy things because they are sinister and menacing symbols of terror.

      They aren't funded the same way either. The IRA are funded partly by contributions and partly by the drug trade, which they are forced to get involved with brutal oppression leaves them no choice. Al-Qaede are funded partly by contributions and partly by the drug trade, which they are involved with because it suits their naturally evil state of mind.

      If the difference still isn't clear, hang out with some Americans until it is.

  • A Note of Solidarity (Score:5, Interesting)

    by tjstork (137384) <tbandrowsky@might y w a re.com> on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:36AM (#13001810) Homepage Journal
    I saw 9/11 on a giant screen. I was working next to a trade floor at
    the time. The company had installed a really large set of screens at
    the end of the floor to keep traders up to current events. Various
    financial news channels would be on at any given point in time, and on
    slow days, the occasional sporting event.

    Jeff, a new hire along with me, stopped by my desk. He said, you have
    to see this, a plane just hit the World Trade Center. So we went back
    to the floor and stared at dumb amazement at the big screen, and
    watched the whole sorry show. I remember talking at that time with
    other people. All of is new it was an act of war, but some of us
    realized that our country would never be the same again. We looked at
    other as the buildings collapsed, and said, "well, we are a police
    state now." Despite all the platitudes of life moving on as normal, we
    all knew in some way that our country as we knew it was gone.

    There were some rumours of planes also targetted buildings in
    Philadelphia, where my mother worked. There was of course no way to
    get in touch with anyone. All the phones were jammed and the main web
    sites were blocked because they were being pounded on so much. I
    managed to do as much work as I could, as if I could blot it out. They
    let us go early that day. Many of the traders had collegues in New
    York.

    When I came home that day my wife had found the largest American flag
    we had and hung it up. She had actually been rather opposed to hanging
    up American flags. One of those liberals that thought patriotism was
    tacky, she wrote in her then journal. "Today I know what it means to
    be American." And then, we turned the TV off and the radio off. I
    couldn't watch it any more. I didn't want to think about it. But
    later on that evening I had occasion to go the store and I turned on
    NPR for a quick update.

    There was the BBC, and with typical British class and elegance they
    dispatched with all the usual platitudes and did the simple thing.
    They conjured up an orchestra which played the Star Spangled Banner.
    And that time was the only time I actually cried at all over 9/11. And
    I will never forget that moment of solidarity with the British people,
    will never forget that in more than my lifetime, from World War II, the
    Cold War, and now in Iraq, the cause of freedom, freedom of the seas,
    freedom from tyranny, freedom of the press, and freedom of trade, has
    been a joint American and British project. For generations now, the
    United States has never had a better friend or more noble ally than the
    United Kingdom.

    I hope that casualties are few in London. I hope that the number of
    people that perished are small. I hope that the wounded will recover.
    I hope that your nation does not go as crazy as ours did. The world
    needs the voice of British reason to counter American romance. Today
    I'm going to go buy a Union Jack and hang it up on my house. Your
    former colonies are with you. We are all British today.
  • by jonathan_ingram (30440) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:37AM (#13001822) Homepage
    There's already an excellent Wikipedia article on the bombs here [wikipedia.org] -- it's being continually updated, contains emergency phone numbers, and seems to be a good accurate summary of what we know so far.
  • by Turn-X Alphonse (789240) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:43AM (#13001894) Journal
    I'm from the UK (an hour from London) and can I just say something here.

    I couldn't careless. The IRA did this loads of times, lots of people have died in the same situations spread out over a couple of weeks. It used to be a fact of life that this happens. 1 event isn't a huge issue.

    Save the pity and shock for else where. It's not needed and hopefully we won't whore this like September 11th was.

    I know this'll get marked troll but I think it's an opinion we NEED to see put out. Some of us couldn't careless, it won't stop our lives any more then seeing a giant pink elephant would.

    It happened, it's over and done with, next please.
  • by Tim C (15259) on Thursday July 07 2005, @08:01AM (#13002115)
    Thankfully, I was late, so I missed the worst of it. My train was held at one of the stations on the way in because of "power surges" in multiple locations. I finally made it to Fenchurch Street (just by the Tower of London) and, having heard that the District Line was suspended, set off about finding a bus.

    The stop that the signs directed me to was on a road that the police were cordoning off as I arrived. I saw several police cars and fire engines, and a group of dazed-looking people being escorted away from some buses, clutching bits of paper. (I'm assuming that the paper was for taking statements)

    Given that it was a reasonably nice day at the time, I decided to walk the rest of the way. On the journey (which took about an hour or so) I heard lots of sirens and helicopters, and saw quite a few police cars and fire engines (including one with "COMMAND UNIT" painted on the side). I also saw an unmarked car driven by someone not in uniform, tearing along with siren blaring and a stick-on light flashing. That gave me pause; the plain-clothes guys don't get called out for "power surges", even if they've caused a transformer or two to blow.

    Now, everything's pretty quiet. The 'phone networks are getting back to normal, although for a while it was hard to get through - it took me a couple of dozen tries to get through to my girlfriend and parents (who knew more about what was going on than I did, walking through central London), but nothing that you wouldn't expect from everyone calling everyone else (eg as they do on NYE).

    Apart from that, and the complete shut down of transport in central London (including the whole of hte Tube network), everything is more or less as it is any other day. The streets are a little quieter, and some shops are closed, but apart from that you could be forgiven for not realising that anything had happened. That won't be the case in the areas directly affected, but here in the West End, it's almost like any other day.

    The news is a different story, of course, and there are rumours and counter rumours flying around like crazy. Talk of people being shot by police, suicide bombers in Canary Wharf (lots of financial companies there), more bombs being found, uncomfirmed reports of it being a terrorist attack; it's hard to tell what's true and what isn't.

    (As I type this, I can hear more sirens out in the streets below)

    My heart goes out to those that were caught up in it, and the people who have lost loved ones or who simply can't contact them to find out.
    • by orion41us (707362) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:06AM (#13001471)
      I think it was not so much that the mobile network was switched off rather that it could not handle the load,
      • by Ford Prefect (8777) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:17AM (#13001605) Homepage
        Capacity being diverted to emergency services, too. [bbc.co.uk]

        It's really not surprising the phones have gone down - it seems to go pretty far afield. For instance, I told a colleague in Brussels what had happened, and she understandably tried getting hold of friends in London. Everyone's fine, fortunately, but it seems anyone working or living in London is being inundated with calls right now.

        The asynchronous nature of stuff like SMSes and email might be an advantage if you're trying to get hold of someone - it's not like a phone call which needs to connect immediately. Alternatively, try phoning a (non-London) friend or relative of the person you're trying to contact, in case they've heard already.
      • Re:First Post (Score:5, Informative)

        by MoonFog (586818) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:09AM (#13001497)
        An Al Qaeda groups has claimed responsibility already.

        A lot of experts have also pointed to the attack being "typical of Al Qaeda".
      • Re:First Post (Score:5, Interesting)

        "Extreme anti-globalisation people" couldn't pull this off. You need to be a rich capitalist like Osama Bin Laden to have access to the necessary resources. Preferably, you should also (like Bin Laden) have the backing of a Western power, or have had it in the past.

        Anarchists also aren't organised enough. Violence by these groups tends to be more along the lines of throwing bricks. Of course, only a tiny proportion of the anti-globalisation movement is violent.

    • Re:More details (Score:5, Informative)

      by bheading (467684) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:11AM (#13001526)
      We can be pretty well assured that there will be more than two deaths. The London Underground will have been jam-packed.

      In London when there is a problem with the tube, connecting buses are brought in to substitute.It appears that the terrorist attack was carefully organized so that people being moved from the tube onto buses would also be moved into danger. If it is AQ, I'm scared that all of the heavy anti-terrorist legislation appears to have had no effect; if it's not AQ I'm even more scared.
    • by alistair (31390) <alistair.hotldap@com> on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:32AM (#13001771)
      7 bombs and 2 deaths, the BBC web site has got this wrong. The bus in Russel Square was a double decker, packed with people leaving the tube and it was completely destroyed, these busses hold around 90 people when packed. The aAldgate explosion looked very bad an eyewitnesses were talking of 20 deaths. They are still cutting people from the tube at Russel square and there any many abulances at King Cross.

      I am writing this from an office block over the road from Bishopsgate and there is almost nothing on the roads apart from police and emergency veicles.I got caught halfway to work this morning and had to walk the rest of the way, I wish I had walked home instead but for a long time the announcements were talking of power failure rather than bombs and everyone assumed they would get the power working again. I guess this was a way of preventing panic.

      So I hope and pray the numbers are low but the thoughs of my colleages and I are with those who were caught in these awful events, as they were with the people in 9/11. I will also be going to give blood as soon as they announce where we can do this.
    • Re:Fucking Animals (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Ronald Dumsfeld (723277) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:15AM (#13001580)
      Let this be a lesson for Londoners and the rest of the world that terrorism can strike anywhere, and appeasing them will only make them stronger.
      Taking them seriously by instigating overt and invasive security measures is exactly the sort of appeasment and response they want.

      This was well planned, and has - so far - had exactly the result the terrorists wanted, London has ground to a standstill with public transport closed for fear of further attacks. London's stock exchange has taken a bit of a tumble, and according to the BBC it has disrupted [bbc.co.uk] the G8 summit.

      Not a bad return on the investment in explosives, and I'm sure you could've covered that by betting on the effect on the markets.
        • Re:Fucking Animals (Score:5, Insightful)

          by meringuoid (568297) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:47AM (#13001935)
          i cant believe you people dare politicize a trajedy like this.

          Terrorism is inherently political. A terrorist does what he does not out of sheer spite but in order to achieve political and ideological goals.

          This whole event was political from the beginning. Whether the politics in question are those of Islamic extremism, anti-G8 anarchism or Irish republicanism remains to be seen, but there is no doubt that the bombings were politically motivated.

    • Re:At the moment (Score:5, Informative)

      by Oxygen99 (634999) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:18AM (#13001623)
      Actually, they didn't. Look at the Guildford and Birmingham pub bombings, Omagh or Warrington. The IRA had no more respect for civilians than any other terrorist organisation.
      • by rxmd (205533) on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:25AM (#13001704) Homepage
        What bugs me is that the G8 might have actually talked about African aid, farm subsidies, and global warming. At least that was the agenda by Blair. Now, well the terrorists are playing right into the hands of George Bush!
        This is not surprising at all. Terrorists aren't interested in world peace. You can observe the same thing in Palestine. As soon as there is even a remote hope for peace, a bomb goes off somewhere. As soon as everybody is happy, peaceful and content, the terrorist lose both their legitimacy and their recruitment environment.

        In WWII, Stalin deliberately had German commanders assassinated if they were too easy on the native population. If a commander committed atrocities, Stalin reckoned that it would only let people rally against the Germans. So he let the atrocious commanders live, just to keep the atmosphere of conflict going. It's the same thing here, and it's been going in the Middle East for years.
      • by dalutong (260603) <djtansey.gmail@com> on Thursday July 07 2005, @07:57AM (#13002064)
        You mean like samuel adams when he tarred and feathered the british loyalists (civilians) and paraded them around in public?

        or the insurgents (foreign-funded by the french) that fought against the legitimate british rulers?

        or the guerrilla attacks that were considered "barbaric" but used because they were the only means the american rebellion had of beating the british?

        i'm not trying to say our "founding fathers" were terrorists -- i'm just saying that these concepts are relative.